Shiguma wrote:

Nube wrote:

I'm tired of people getting offended when they are criticized for doing something VERY controversial. Meet the important arguements with your own instead of blaming it on biases. Try to make people understand exactly what you're trying to pull off, because if you can't even explain what you are doing, then how can you claim to know it's even remotely good?

While the beatmaps may be controversial, isn't that kind of a good thing? Do we want to see the same exact style of mapping repeated over and over again? This map may be extreme, but many people can play these difficulties. It allows for creativity. HanzeR comes to mind, with his creative mapping style which people initially hated but seem to enjoy elements of now.

I never said being controversial is bad, I just said that you have to be able to explain why what you are doing is good. Stop putting words in my mouth and learn to read.

Nube wrote:

I never said being controversial is bad, I just said that you have to be able to explain why what you are doing is good. Stop putting words in my mouth and learn to read.

Didn't the creators respond to the mods that were given on this beatmap?

Edit: I don't know what I'm talking about.

Although I still think it's a subjective opinion on whether a song is intense or not.

Shiguma wrote:

Isn't this completely subjective? Someone's opinion on this song may be it's not intense, while others think it is very intense.

No? What makes you think that?

Shiguma wrote:

I don't understand why it was disqualified for these gimmicky patterns especially when the star difficulty is above 6 stars. Isn't it really the people who can't even play 6* beatmaps the ones who are complaining that these maps are too hard? Isn't that the reason there is a difficulty spread?

There are a number of top players that have criticized all the 6*+ difficulties.

Shiguma wrote:

While the beatmaps may be controversial, isn't that kind of a good thing? Do we want to see the same exact style of mapping repeated over and over again? This map may be extreme, but many people can play these difficulties. It allows for creativity. HanzeR comes to mind, with his creative mapping style which people initially hated but seem to enjoy elements of now.

Diversity is great - not at the sacrifice of quality. I'm surprised the argument of 'it's my vision' still persists and actually is allowed as justification for disregarding legitimate criticism. Having an opinion on a work of art has nothing to do with how good or not it is. There's a reason why movie critics can call a movie bad or good, depending on casting, acting, writing, cinematography, editing, directing etc. but that has nothing to do with you being able to like it or not. You're free to like whatever you want but that does not give you the right to disregard any mod giving legitimate criticism to problems in the map (esp considering a number of the target audience point this out). If you're going through the ranking system it's an obligation to adhere - otherwise keep your shit in the graveyard thx

Shiguma wrote:

Didn't the creators respond to the mods that were given on this beatmap?

if HW responded to mods that criticize it'd be in osu weekly

JappyBabes wrote:

if HW responded to mods that criticize it'd be in osu weekly

She clearly does respond to critizing mods in an acceptable and understanding fashion /s

Hollow Wings wrote:

why i map things like this? i got tons of test plays other than yours, and i can tell every detail if you care the so-called answers of "why you set pattern like this?" which just makes me sick, even this map's composing is much more brighter than common ranked ones recently from a mapping view.

yeah "play-ability does not equal quality", then do you guys really looked at the maps' quality without judging the play-ability? to me, the most important part of the quality DO IS play-ability, for a ranked map is made for PLAYING.

the map plays bad to you? good. i've already got 100+ players enjoyed the map and even 3 fc'ed scores.

fartownik wrote:

"the map plays bad to you? good." should be a quote of the year. Some people also enjoyed Big Black, some people have FC'd Big Black, it doesn't instantly make Big Black a good map. Also you mention playability, yes a good map's best feature should be playability, too bad your map doesn't really have that feature at places and you refuse to acknowledge that in the mods you get. Have a good day.

thou eventually that big black is one of the best maps in the year 2012, and it do is a really great map even you can't play it well. too bad if you can't play this map well, too. and also, i always replying to mods, any mods are welcomed, i know what i'm acknowledging and refusing.

Shiirn wrote:

We should really find a good english-> chinese and chinese->english translator to facilitate this.

Uh, hang on a sec, how is language barrier an issue? Did someone reply to an English mod with Chinese or something? What needs translating?

JappyBabes wrote:

if HW responded to mods that criticize it'd be in osu weekly

haha gud 1 : ))

Music is not entirely subjective.
Music is not entirely objective.
Mapping is not entirely subjective.
Mapping is not entirely objective.

I am quite tired of people who know better lying to themselves and to the community et al about their mapping. AXION is an ambient battle track. Ithas lots of 1/4, but the emphasis is on the beat rather than the intensity.

This is not to say that AXION shouldn't ever have a really hard difficulty - after all, when I mapped it four years ago, it had stream jumps, considered "fake difficulty" back then - but as it is now there should be a reasonable limit put onto a mapper's "creativity" in regards to the intensity of the song. I hate to cry 'slippery slope' but if you let people do whatever they like, you'll end up with a community that has no idea who or what to learn from.



What really frustrates me is that a lot of the patterns do make a twisted form of sense from a musical standpoint, but are so obviously overblown that I can't see anything but disrespect from it.

All of these mappers know better and know exactly what they are doing, but refuse to reach common ground with the parts of the community that disagree with them.

This is an issue that has been going on well over half a decade, and I don't see it ending any time soon, but I wish it wasn't like this. Common ground, areas where we can agree, are precious, and I try really hard to encourage actual discussion that isn't essentially a child throwing a tantrum of "but i want it my way!", but it seems I will continue to be disappointed. I don't want it my way - I want them to consider my way and show in any way that they respect my opinion and mapping experience - something I am sure every person who has modded this map has wanted.

That's what modding is really about - helping other people with your own knowledge and experience. But some mappers only ever see the modding process as "people i gotta convince they're wrong" when it comes to Flower and co.



EDIT: Please note I only care about the patterns in question that are completely uncalled for and most players take issue with - the overall mapping and usage of high spacing doesn't matter to me.

.

Welp, i don't think mapper have to follow the feeling of the song THAT precise, i think it's enough with simple emphasis and playable patterns is enough to rank, nobody would understand complicated things when you playing them

EDIT: Never mind what i said, i didn't read them completely because it's too long for me

bananannian wrote:

Shiirn wrote:

We should really find a good english-> chinese and chinese->english translator to facilitate this.

Uh, hang on a sec, how is language barrier an issue? Did someone reply to an English mod with Chinese or something? What needs translating?

This is literally important when expressing ideas about a controversial topic like this especially communicating in different language. Different language style directly causes different method of thinking and expressing ideas.

Shiirn wrote:

Music is not entirely subjective.
Music is not entirely objective.
Mapping is not entirely subjective.
Mapping is not entirely objective.

...

+Support.


实在是不行了把我难度删了啊 留个Hard挺好 我觉得我现在这个难度实在是坠毁
打嘴仗简直他妈的天花乱坠 论题在以光速绕dq issue飞行但是就是不打在点上 真鸡巴累
https://t.co/75epOOBRSP
要用就复制音效算了

Apparently some people misunderstood the point I was trying to get across.
I am not saying Shiirn is right or wrong, what I simply tried to express is when it comes to mapping no one can claim to be right or wrong.
You have to put yourself into the creators mindset and understand the mapping ideas they applied to the song before you can make suggestions to the improvement of a map.
That being said, not every difficulty has the obligation to feel nice for every player ever playing it, that's why mapsets exist.

Last post since I feel bad to keep this going without providing any constructive feedback for the improvement of the mapset, best of luck Flower.

JappyBabes wrote:

bad or good [...] but that has nothing to do with you being able to like it or not. You're free to like whatever you want

Wish more people understand that you're allowed to like bad things.

Happy new year! At the current state, the map is a solid 6.5/10. If passable is all you're looking for, then sure. I can point out exactly what stops the score from being any higher, but I don't know if it's actually worth it, so I'll refrain for now.

wtf dq again.

扶老二千年修圖仍未修成正果

Just to be clear DQ's are the start of a discussion to talk about the problem areas I felt that there was a large portion of community asking why things like this are allowed and a prime example of stuff that is over the top is what MillhioreF already pointed out as well, I'm not here to force my views or anything of the sort, this map could be improved and there is no reason not too. trust me if it was just me modding this I would argue that the entire spread is to insane bound and that is has no balance, overmapping and artificial difficulty. But I also respect that times have changed and what is precise to call a hard now days was the insane of yesteryear. So I would just like to see some improvement come from this conversation you act as if the map is dead on air and can never move forward. Just take the time to update it a bit it is old that doesn't give it a free ride to be flawed.

instead of arguing what's subjective, what's objective and what do you personally prefer you people could just throw some detailed feedback on map i believe me too actually




If it's needed i can mod it though, just poke me via irc or something

I'm here only for see how HW's fanbase defend her ridiculous diff.

Anyways I'm surprised, this kind of beatmaps never get DQ, at least not when they're from "popular" mappers.

Kitami Erika wrote:

实在是不行了把我难度删了啊 留个Hard挺好 我觉得我现在这个难度实在是坠毁
打嘴仗简直他妈的天花乱坠 论题在以光速绕dq issue飞行但是就是不打在点上 真鸡巴累

今次DQ不是你的問題嗎。。。你的難度沒有問題的為什麼要刪了

Hey guys can you avoid posting if you don't have nothing constructive to add? make suggestions and try to improve the map that's the only way to help the mapper, take your no sense out of here pls, thanks. Maybe gonna take a look later~

fmm...I'd like to have an opinion that we should just wait Hollow Wings but try to do reading comprehension her map and pick up some issues which is expected to help improving map actually with valid reason as much as possible before our be too belligerent. I think HW will explain the theory of HW's EX since, according to her user page, her mapping style is making objective sense.

It is hard too comprehend HW's EX for my skill, but I found one point to be a little worried about. just suggestion.

00:37:900 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - I couldn't find any good reason for these placing. it looks a bit too monotonous for the song because the sound of this song of this timing has not completely same melody. how about ctrl+G on 00:37:900 (1) - and 00:38:275 (3) - (separately) ? this up-and-down cirsor moving with this placing would follow the song-melody's up and down. and 00:38:650 (5,6,7,8) - has a bit different melody to 00:37:900 (1,2,3,4) - , so I'd recommend to change this placing, too. especially 00:39:025 (7,8) - would more fits with four 1/4 circles imo, which has slight special melody compete with before ones.

thanks! sorry for trespassing on the discussion (the reading long text is also lerning English for me who is poor at English lol), hope it gets requalify.

KuranteMelodii wrote:

Kitami Erika wrote:

实在是不行了把我难度删了啊 留个Hard挺好 我觉得我现在这个难度实在是坠毁
打嘴仗简直他妈的天花乱坠 论题在以光速绕dq issue飞行但是就是不打在点上 真鸡巴累

今次DQ不是你的問題嗎。。。你的難度沒有問題的為什麼要刪了

tired
自己还有一条腿陷在里面 别人来说什么总归也要来看一看

Natsu wrote:

Hey guys can you avoid posting if you don't have nothing constructive to add? make suggestions and try to improve the map that's the only way to help the mapper, take your no sense out of here pls, thanks. Maybe gonna take a look later~

Thing is, people are afraid their mods will be ignored as shown times before and that's why the discussion is there in the first place. Why bother trying to help someone who doesn't want to change? Before anything it would be nice to get a response from the mapper themself.

Nube wrote:

Natsu wrote:

Hey guys can you avoid posting if you don't have nothing constructive to add? make suggestions and try to improve the map that's the only way to help the mapper, take your no sense out of here pls, thanks. Maybe gonna take a look later~

Thing is, people are afraid their mods will be ignored as shown times before and that's why the discussion is there in the first place. Why bother trying to help someone who doesn't want to change? Before anything it would be nice to get a response from the mapper themself.

yep. i made half a mod and then decided it was a waste of time, because mapper spirit, mapping style, all the usual. I'd rather delete my mod than even post half a mod because i'd just be more disappointed by everything being rejected for invalid reasons, we all know the reasons already.

:/ stream jump is too hard

DQ because spread is too loose. DQ because Readabikity of *insert time here* is bad. DQ because of multiple MP3 file. Some reasons above could be controversial, but at least they are clear.

Now let's DQ because community has different voice. It is good, but leaves space for question. To what extent, shall we agree that the map is okay on the shelf? It is not very appropriate to attempt to satisfy everyone.

Will check the posts if I get Okinami.

I haven't read every post here, but I just want to state a couple of things that I think are very important.

First off, I should mention I like every extra difficulty in the set. I think they are creative and fun to play, and I don't think they are awkward in the slightest. I do think there are things that could be improved, but that's not the point of this post.

A lot of people are talking about how the maps are too intense for the song. I will have to disagree with that. I think intensity is relative to the rest of the map. If you take a song, and start the map off with a certain spacing level, then that is the "normal" spacing for the song. The starting point. It doesn't feel like intense spacing if you are only comparing the map to itself - because that's the spacing you start with. The problem comes when you compare it to other maps of similar songs... then you think "this map is more intense." But I think that's flawed logic. In terms of intensity, every map should only be compared relative to itself. You have a starting point, and then the difficulty/spacing may increase at different parts of the song. But the starting point in that specific map is what matters.

I don't know how much sense that makes to anyone but me, but that's kind of how I feel about it. Just because something is "difficult" doesn't mean it's "intense". If you take a 170bpm calm song, and map half screen jumps for the whole time, the map won't feel intense. It may be difficult, but it won't feel intense, because there is no variance in the spacing throughout the whole map. It will actually be kind of boring.

So that's how I feel about Axion. I think within each map, they map to the variances in the song quite well and they feel nice to play.

Also a lot of people are complaining because people just in general don't like "stream difficulty"

Hard jumps are ok but tracing is too hard

like why...

ok im done

[Mahua] wrote:

我一个2400pp的叒鸡哪有比在座一堆五六千pp的大神了解这图

I'd love to see this ranked, honestly. I will take a look at it later

The source is Cytus not BMS :<<

The source is BMS not Cyrus :<<

Is this going to stay in grave?

I didn't get Okinami, so I will leave the game until financial year sale

Flower wrote:

[Mahua] wrote:

我一个2400pp的叒鸡哪有比在座一堆五六千pp的大神了解这图

说的有理 妈的我的话谁删的

unobjectively the best mapset of the 2010s

Sorry for random mod, but Skystar's Expert is the only difficulty with Widescreen Support on which you might have forgot to turn off

It's back O.o

Alveryn wrote:

Sorry for random mod, but Skystar's Expert is the only difficulty with Widescreen Support on which you might have forgot to turn off

Will fix this in later uptade

First mod ever v.v sorry if i don't get the format right...

Hey!
For the Axion_Reborn difficulty,
on this section 01:23:650 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - i feel like having 01:24:025 (1,2,3,4) - slightly higher and rotated a little clockwise

^ Something like this ^

would make the map more accessible for players to complete. It wouldn't change the difficulty much and would keep the same style of pattern.

all fixed and updated.

It's back, nice
Feel free to call me if you want to get it pushed forward again ^_^