"Hard because hard"

"Hard because awkward as shit"


pick one

a late happy chinese new year to everyone

im gay

It has come to my attention that quite a few have wanted this to hold off a bit more as to address the issues in the mapset, there were some valid complaints I felt were thrown to the side. So before this turns into a heated drama fest i ask that you take into consideration these pointed out errors. Do not just ignore these and find someone else to rank this talk it though the community wants to see this map be something all can enjoy not just another let see how far i can push the rules thread. So to make myself clear as crystal I want to see the issues addressed to HW's EX and the other mods that were thrown to the side after the bubble.

If my understandings were right, that you were referring to the non-kudosu'ed mods after the first rebuble after the first dequalification, I could promise those posts, despite ignoring some offensive or sarcastic words, were thoroughly read, appreciated and then replied. Unclear instruction on your dequalification post kind of confused me. If there is any rule being violated, would you please point the pattern out, then refer to a certain rule? I guess that is how a QAT will do when executing a dequalification.

edit: 新的一年祝大家碎碎平安啦

edit2: It's weird that in Microsoft Edge I can't select text or reposition text cursor with mouse (but can do with keyboard), while can't use Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V but can do with mouse right click.

TL;DR

Real DQ reason: it has no ponies

To summarize as simply as possible:

The map has patterns and flow that do not belong in a song of this nature. AXION is not a powerful song. It is not a song that implies, when listening to it, fullscreen 1/4 jumps, regardless of whether or not they are playable.

The issue is that the higher difficulties are taking the music's beat patterns and applying patterns that do not belong with the music, do not fit the music's tempo, buildup, or power in any predictable or comfortable way.

While the individual patterns are possible and playable, the difficulty of them are all over the place and do not fit the theme of the song - which progressively builds up to "max energy" about 50% of the way in, before rapidly declining in the final 1/4th of the song. These patterns do not fit AXION. There are other songs where they can totally fit. Furioso melodia has a lower bpm but much, much, much higher intensity.


We should really find a good english-> chinese and chinese->english translator to facilitate this. Believe it or not, I want this to get ranked - but as it is right now it is simply a bunch of big name Chinese mappers throwing random patterns that look fancy at a song that cannot withstand the strain.

This is, to a point, up to the mapper to interpret. Two different mappers can certainly think a song is different in intensity. But making crazy 1/4 jumps across the stream and back and forth 1/4 streams should be something mappers find a good song for - they shouldn't be putting it in the closest track they can find.

All of these mappers are quite good. They're very good at mapping, I won't deny that, and I respect each one of them a lot - but this kind of "crazy mapping" is something most self-respecting mappers stopped doing early on as it is a newbie fantasy.


Please do not disregard this post as this is about as respectful as I can get - I don't do "politics" very well.


tl;dr the song choice is much more of an issue than the actual mapping or the patterns within them

As long as we're here, PLEASE fix 01:25:900 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4). The cursor movements required are incredibly unnatural, on top of the massive difficulty of the section in the first place. If you keep the spacing, at least provide some sort of flow like you do in the notes before it.

An example of how it could be fixed (doesn't have to be like this though)

都是你当初让我随便来 吗的

再dq我就要FC了 不要啊

機器人又要升級固件了

Shiirn wrote:

AXION is not a powerful song.

excuse me, I have not found a single song that is clearly more intense than AXION, even The Big Black.

Shad0w1and wrote:

Shiirn wrote:

AXION is not a powerful song.

excuse me, I have not found a single song that is clearly more intense than AXION, even The Big Black.

Well a song's intensity is a subjective matter, but just because the song is 160 bpm with so many 1/4 instruments it does not mean it justifies such difficulty.

Shiirn wrote:

The issue is that the higher difficulties are taking the music's beat patterns and applying patterns that do not belong with the music, do not fit the music's tempo, buildup, or power in any predictable or comfortable way.

welcome to 2016 bby can't wait to see your 9* map

Shiirn wrote:

To summarize as simply as possible:

We should really find a good english-> chinese and chinese->english translator to facilitate this. Believe it or not, I want this to get ranked - but as it is right now it is simply a bunch of big name Chinese mappers throwing random patterns that look fancy at a song that cannot withstand the strain.

This is very true and I hope the mappers do something about it.

Shiirn wrote:

The map has patterns and flow that do not belong in a song of this nature. AXION is not a powerful song. It is not a song that implies, when listening to it, fullscreen 1/4 jumps, regardless of whether or not they are playable.

Sorry, but there's nothing objective about that statement. Who are you to decide how other people see the song? Everyone will have their own interpretation of what's going on and that's fine.

What SHOULD be the focus, rather than that, is the gameplay itself. Does it play well and represent the song through its own style/from the mapper's viewpoint? These sorts of questions are what we should ask.

Something you don't agree with doesn't make it wrong
Try to see things from another viewpoint, that's what mapping is about

deetz wrote:

What SHOULD be the focus, rather than that, is the gameplay itself. Does it play well and represent the song through its own style/from the mapper's viewpoint? These sorts of questions are what we should ask.

Best thing anyone has ever said

I feel like this thread is going to quickly derail into an argument of the sorts where the two sides discuss whether one should map to the song, objectively, or to what they feel, and all that "mapping is art" stuff - if you want to look at the song "in another way" and impose your own rhythm with your map on the top of the song itself through your mapset by emphasizing awkward rhythms you claim to view over what would be the most obvious rhythms that anyone can perceive. The song doesn't feel like it is such a song that's been portrayed in the highest difficulties, but the mapper can easily claim that he "feels as if it fits", and even that this song is "more intense than even Big Black", however out of left field the comment may be.

That's likely not going to be productive, so perhaps it'd be better to look at spacing and flow of the maps, which are undeniably off and awkward no matter how you look at it. Also, before anyone pulls into it, someone being able to FC a map doesn't make the spacing or the flow any less awkward or off; it just means there's people who can play whatever awkward stuff you placed in your map. That does not change the fact it is counter intuitive and all over the place. It may be playable, but that does not make it correct or good.

Anyway, Happy Chinese New Year

tm的不是你们要的难吗 这tm不够难？
有pp不拿都有病 没难点的谱子谁tm玩啊
edit:这比我做的那个axion容易多了

Shiirn wrote:

tl;dr the song choice is much more of an issue than the actual mapping or the patterns within them

I really have to agree with this. Some of the diffs themselves would probably work great in other songs but axion is such a monotone and ambient track.

To me it seems that, just like how radical feminists look too far into things just to find something they feel is insulting, people are looking too far into songs, trying to emphasize shit that isn't even there for the sake of difficulty increase and making an edgy map. People should know that just because something is on beat doesn't mean anything goes. Common sense should also apply as mapping = crafting official levels for a game, not just our own personal art exhibition.
I'll have it known that I consider mapping more than just level making in a game, so much that I'd even call it an artform. However, it's also restrained by the need of proper gameplay.

I'm tired of people getting offended when they are criticized for doing something VERY controversial. Meet the important arguements with your own instead of blaming it on biases. Try to make people understand exactly what you're trying to pull off, because if you can't even explain what you are doing, then how can you claim to know it's even remotely good?

Shiirn wrote:

To summarize as simply as possible:

The map has patterns and flow that do not belong in a song of this nature. AXION is not a powerful song. It is not a song that implies, when listening to it, fullscreen 1/4 jumps, regardless of whether or not they are playable.

The issue is that the higher difficulties are taking the music's beat patterns and applying patterns that do not belong with the music, do not fit the music's tempo, buildup, or power in any predictable or comfortable way.

While the individual patterns are possible and playable, the difficulty of them are all over the place and do not fit the theme of the song - which progressively builds up to "max energy" about 50% of the way in, before rapidly declining in the final 1/4th of the song. These patterns do not fit AXION. There are other songs where they can totally fit. Furioso melodia has a lower bpm but much, much, much higher intensity.

Isn't this completely subjective? Someone's opinion on this song may be it's not intense, while others think it is very intense.

I don't understand why it was disqualified for these gimmicky patterns especially when the star difficulty is above 6 stars. Isn't it really the people who can't even play 6* beatmaps the ones who are complaining that these maps are too hard? Isn't that the reason there is a difficulty spread?

Nube wrote:

I'm tired of people getting offended when they are criticized for doing something VERY controversial. Meet the important arguements with your own instead of blaming it on biases. Try to make people understand exactly what you're trying to pull off, because if you can't even explain what you are doing, then how can you claim to know it's even remotely good?

While the beatmaps may be controversial, isn't that kind of a good thing? Do we want to see the same exact style of mapping repeated over and over again? This map may be extreme, but many people can play these difficulties. It allows for creativity. HanzeR comes to mind, with his creative mapping style which people initially hated but seem to enjoy elements of now.
Edit: I'm terrible at reading and I'm making up things. Also don't know what I'm talking about. Sorry.

Shiguma wrote:

Nube wrote:

I'm tired of people getting offended when they are criticized for doing something VERY controversial. Meet the important arguements with your own instead of blaming it on biases. Try to make people understand exactly what you're trying to pull off, because if you can't even explain what you are doing, then how can you claim to know it's even remotely good?

While the beatmaps may be controversial, isn't that kind of a good thing? Do we want to see the same exact style of mapping repeated over and over again? This map may be extreme, but many people can play these difficulties. It allows for creativity. HanzeR comes to mind, with his creative mapping style which people initially hated but seem to enjoy elements of now.

I never said being controversial is bad, I just said that you have to be able to explain why what you are doing is good. Stop putting words in my mouth and learn to read.

Nube wrote:

I never said being controversial is bad, I just said that you have to be able to explain why what you are doing is good. Stop putting words in my mouth and learn to read.

Didn't the creators respond to the mods that were given on this beatmap?

Edit: I don't know what I'm talking about.

Although I still think it's a subjective opinion on whether a song is intense or not.

Shiguma wrote:

Isn't this completely subjective? Someone's opinion on this song may be it's not intense, while others think it is very intense.

No? What makes you think that?

Shiguma wrote:

I don't understand why it was disqualified for these gimmicky patterns especially when the star difficulty is above 6 stars. Isn't it really the people who can't even play 6* beatmaps the ones who are complaining that these maps are too hard? Isn't that the reason there is a difficulty spread?

There are a number of top players that have criticized all the 6*+ difficulties.

Shiguma wrote:

While the beatmaps may be controversial, isn't that kind of a good thing? Do we want to see the same exact style of mapping repeated over and over again? This map may be extreme, but many people can play these difficulties. It allows for creativity. HanzeR comes to mind, with his creative mapping style which people initially hated but seem to enjoy elements of now.

Diversity is great - not at the sacrifice of quality. I'm surprised the argument of 'it's my vision' still persists and actually is allowed as justification for disregarding legitimate criticism. Having an opinion on a work of art has nothing to do with how good or not it is. There's a reason why movie critics can call a movie bad or good, depending on casting, acting, writing, cinematography, editing, directing etc. but that has nothing to do with you being able to like it or not. You're free to like whatever you want but that does not give you the right to disregard any mod giving legitimate criticism to problems in the map (esp considering a number of the target audience point this out). If you're going through the ranking system it's an obligation to adhere - otherwise keep your shit in the graveyard thx

Shiguma wrote:

Didn't the creators respond to the mods that were given on this beatmap?

if HW responded to mods that criticize it'd be in osu weekly

JappyBabes wrote:

if HW responded to mods that criticize it'd be in osu weekly

She clearly does respond to critizing mods in an acceptable and understanding fashion /s

Hollow Wings wrote:

why i map things like this? i got tons of test plays other than yours, and i can tell every detail if you care the so-called answers of "why you set pattern like this?" which just makes me sick, even this map's composing is much more brighter than common ranked ones recently from a mapping view.

yeah "play-ability does not equal quality", then do you guys really looked at the maps' quality without judging the play-ability? to me, the most important part of the quality DO IS play-ability, for a ranked map is made for PLAYING.

the map plays bad to you? good. i've already got 100+ players enjoyed the map and even 3 fc'ed scores.

fartownik wrote:

"the map plays bad to you? good." should be a quote of the year. Some people also enjoyed Big Black, some people have FC'd Big Black, it doesn't instantly make Big Black a good map. Also you mention playability, yes a good map's best feature should be playability, too bad your map doesn't really have that feature at places and you refuse to acknowledge that in the mods you get. Have a good day.

thou eventually that big black is one of the best maps in the year 2012, and it do is a really great map even you can't play it well. too bad if you can't play this map well, too. and also, i always replying to mods, any mods are welcomed, i know what i'm acknowledging and refusing.

Shiirn wrote:

We should really find a good english-> chinese and chinese->english translator to facilitate this.

Uh, hang on a sec, how is language barrier an issue? Did someone reply to an English mod with Chinese or something? What needs translating?

JappyBabes wrote:

if HW responded to mods that criticize it'd be in osu weekly

haha gud 1 : ))

Music is not entirely subjective.
Music is not entirely objective.
Mapping is not entirely subjective.
Mapping is not entirely objective.

I am quite tired of people who know better lying to themselves and to the community et al about their mapping. AXION is an ambient battle track. Ithas lots of 1/4, but the emphasis is on the beat rather than the intensity.

This is not to say that AXION shouldn't ever have a really hard difficulty - after all, when I mapped it four years ago, it had stream jumps, considered "fake difficulty" back then - but as it is now there should be a reasonable limit put onto a mapper's "creativity" in regards to the intensity of the song. I hate to cry 'slippery slope' but if you let people do whatever they like, you'll end up with a community that has no idea who or what to learn from.



What really frustrates me is that a lot of the patterns do make a twisted form of sense from a musical standpoint, but are so obviously overblown that I can't see anything but disrespect from it.

All of these mappers know better and know exactly what they are doing, but refuse to reach common ground with the parts of the community that disagree with them.

This is an issue that has been going on well over half a decade, and I don't see it ending any time soon, but I wish it wasn't like this. Common ground, areas where we can agree, are precious, and I try really hard to encourage actual discussion that isn't essentially a child throwing a tantrum of "but i want it my way!", but it seems I will continue to be disappointed. I don't want it my way - I want them to consider my way and show in any way that they respect my opinion and mapping experience - something I am sure every person who has modded this map has wanted.

That's what modding is really about - helping other people with your own knowledge and experience. But some mappers only ever see the modding process as "people i gotta convince they're wrong" when it comes to Flower and co.



EDIT: Please note I only care about the patterns in question that are completely uncalled for and most players take issue with - the overall mapping and usage of high spacing doesn't matter to me.

.

Welp, i don't think mapper have to follow the feeling of the song THAT precise, i think it's enough with simple emphasis and playable patterns is enough to rank, nobody would understand complicated things when you playing them

EDIT: Never mind what i said, i didn't read them completely because it's too long for me

bananannian wrote:

Shiirn wrote:

We should really find a good english-> chinese and chinese->english translator to facilitate this.

Uh, hang on a sec, how is language barrier an issue? Did someone reply to an English mod with Chinese or something? What needs translating?

This is literally important when expressing ideas about a controversial topic like this especially communicating in different language. Different language style directly causes different method of thinking and expressing ideas.

Shiirn wrote:

Music is not entirely subjective.
Music is not entirely objective.
Mapping is not entirely subjective.
Mapping is not entirely objective.

...

+Support.


实在是不行了把我难度删了啊 留个Hard挺好 我觉得我现在这个难度实在是坠毁
打嘴仗简直他妈的天花乱坠 论题在以光速绕dq issue飞行但是就是不打在点上 真鸡巴累
https://t.co/75epOOBRSP
要用就复制音效算了

Apparently some people misunderstood the point I was trying to get across.
I am not saying Shiirn is right or wrong, what I simply tried to express is when it comes to mapping no one can claim to be right or wrong.
You have to put yourself into the creators mindset and understand the mapping ideas they applied to the song before you can make suggestions to the improvement of a map.
That being said, not every difficulty has the obligation to feel nice for every player ever playing it, that's why mapsets exist.

Last post since I feel bad to keep this going without providing any constructive feedback for the improvement of the mapset, best of luck Flower.

JappyBabes wrote:

bad or good [...] but that has nothing to do with you being able to like it or not. You're free to like whatever you want

Wish more people understand that you're allowed to like bad things.

Happy new year! At the current state, the map is a solid 6.5/10. If passable is all you're looking for, then sure. I can point out exactly what stops the score from being any higher, but I don't know if it's actually worth it, so I'll refrain for now.

wtf dq again.

扶老二千年修圖仍未修成正果

Just to be clear DQ's are the start of a discussion to talk about the problem areas I felt that there was a large portion of community asking why things like this are allowed and a prime example of stuff that is over the top is what MillhioreF already pointed out as well, I'm not here to force my views or anything of the sort, this map could be improved and there is no reason not too. trust me if it was just me modding this I would argue that the entire spread is to insane bound and that is has no balance, overmapping and artificial difficulty. But I also respect that times have changed and what is precise to call a hard now days was the insane of yesteryear. So I would just like to see some improvement come from this conversation you act as if the map is dead on air and can never move forward. Just take the time to update it a bit it is old that doesn't give it a free ride to be flawed.

instead of arguing what's subjective, what's objective and what do you personally prefer you people could just throw some detailed feedback on map i believe me too actually




If it's needed i can mod it though, just poke me via irc or something

I'm here only for see how HW's fanbase defend her ridiculous diff.

Anyways I'm surprised, this kind of beatmaps never get DQ, at least not when they're from "popular" mappers.

Kitami Erika wrote:

实在是不行了把我难度删了啊 留个Hard挺好 我觉得我现在这个难度实在是坠毁
打嘴仗简直他妈的天花乱坠 论题在以光速绕dq issue飞行但是就是不打在点上 真鸡巴累

今次DQ不是你的問題嗎。。。你的難度沒有問題的為什麼要刪了

Hey guys can you avoid posting if you don't have nothing constructive to add? make suggestions and try to improve the map that's the only way to help the mapper, take your no sense out of here pls, thanks. Maybe gonna take a look later~