It is because of this:


This honestly should not even exist, or be rankable for that matter, because of the forced style. I support you all the way.

But, maybe there are some ways around the 7+1 through skinning? It wouldn't hurt to explore all the options, even though it is a hassle.

Hassle aside, the only way to re skin 7K+1 to sym 8k will result in having all the notes the same color... But in the end we shouldn't need to hassle ourselves over something like this.

I'm glad that everyone agrees with me. As an 8k player, this really doesn't sit right with me.

Well, there has to be an option that can switch between playing 7K+1 and symmetrical 8K for the 8K ranked map if the mapper had applied/ticked the "Use special style(N+1 style) for mania".

It would be best if the option available in Visual Settings.

MMzz wrote:

It is because of this:


This honestly should not even exist, or be rankable for that matter, because of the forced style. I support you all the way.

But, maybe there are some ways around the 7+1 through skinning? It wouldn't hurt to explore all the options, even though it is a hassle.

No, you can't get around it by skinning. My screenshots are from my symmetrical 8k specific skin that I made because osu! has backwards key layout in 8k. Being forced into 7+1 changes the leftmost lane into a special key and then uses the 7+1 key color layout.

p,w,p,w,w,p,w,p gets turned into y,p,w,p,w,p,w,p the only way you could fix this by skinning is if we could individually control the colors of each lane. (which we still cannot do)

ishimaru94 wrote:

Well, there has to be an option that can switch between playing 7K+1 and symmetrical 8K for the 8K ranked map if the mapper had applied/ticked the "Use special style(N+1 style) for mania".

It would be best if the option available in Visual Settings.

I would like to say an option is enough (Should be available in the first play.) Or if necessary, an option like "Ignoring mapper preference on special key issue" may be OK.
7+1 may become a preference if mappers have their +1 column mapped as special key like in BMS, but if players want they may toggle it off like skin preference.

Though I want to point out that it's actually noting style that make "7+1" 7+1. When you want to treat these maps as 4+4 (I do treat them in rare cases and my skin have the same problem as yours) You may find the map unplayable because of crazy keys coming in the extra +1 column. (And you may have noticed that we have 2 special key slot, this is why this exist.)

Drace wrote:

I'll say this again; there's barely any 8k players, don't do something that'll split the group to even smaller groups...

No, It's not because there are few 8K players. May not want to say something too absolute, but we do have many 8K players.
This is because we don't have many 8K maps; There are a considerable number of people talking to me everyday about "When would 8K map be ranked?" Besides, 50% or more players on the first page can play 8K to some extent and we have players like auzen/LMatchG who is already super player on 8K.
Due to osu!mania as a developing mode and the relatively low effectiveness of ranking comparing to osu! (and no conversion map to 8K & 8K mod not score-economical) (AND the no-7key-at-the-same-time rule making many maps unrankable) there are really little choice when you want to play 8K.
Comparing osu!mania which have few 8K maps which have scoreboard, and LR2 which thousands of challenging maps, this is why you may say "No 8K Players around." Many players play 7K here (I believe you may not argue that 7K is better developed comparing to 8K here)and go to LR2 or play unranked maps instead when they want to play 8K.


So you are a 8K player I would think that these arguments are unnecessary I'm willing to see 8K mode growing better which is the same as you

TouchFluffyTail wrote:

p,w,p,w,w,p,w,p gets turned into y,p,w,p,w,p,w,p the only way you could fix this by skinning is if we could individually control the colors of each lane. (which we still cannot do)

I still don't know why we can't do this. I always get screwed up when I switch from 4/5/7K, because all the colours change and it messes me up every time. I can only play in one key layout per day.

Yeah, we definitely need fully skinnable mania.

I agree that a player options is all that should fix this. Removing 7k+1 would give mappers fewer options for how they want to map things, which is never a good idea.

Mappers need to be able to specify if their map is 4k+1 or 8k, and players need the ability to ignore that setting if they wish (because it makes no difference to the patterns, only the visual layout of the columns). It's a simple solution to just add an option into the options when you start a map. I don't see a reason to force you to play through a map once for this though, before anyone mentions that.

Bobbias wrote:

Mappers need to be able to specify if their map is 4k+1 or 8k, and players need the ability to ignore that setting if they wish (because it makes no difference to the patterns, only the visual layout of the columns). It's a simple solution to just add an option into the options when you start a map. I don't see a reason to force you to play through a map once for this though, before anyone mentions that.

This option being enforced like a funspoiler would be the worst thing ever, because being forced into 7+1k as an 8k player is literally unplayable (to any degree of accuracy anyway) due to the key setup and the way it messes up visually.

This should just be a one line .ini fix;

8k.ini

//Mania skin config
Force8kSymmetrical: 1

There's already an option in the skin settings in the in-game options that allows you to choose your style. The ideal solution would be to have a little check box bellow or beside it that says "force style" (or force w/e terminology they use in the settings, not on my home pc atm). Editing the skin's .ini feels roundabout and completely disregarding the song's settings wouldn't be ideal either.

Since the mapper mapped the beat-map with that style in mind, people who hasn't adopted a style yet will be better off playing it with the "appropriate" style.

Just an extra check-box in the settings to make everyone happy would be perfect.

Edit: The idea posted earlier of adding it in the map's visual settings is also very good. Since people who click the force button will then never know what style the mapper had in mind. Not that it's it big deal, just feels more appropriate is things goes like "oh this is 7k+1, no biggy *pause -> symmetrical style -> play*.

Then again, this might be a problem in multiplayer, also i think you need to pass the song to change the visual settings... So I would lean towards changing the skin settings as the better solution.

TouchFluffyTail wrote:

This option being enforced like a funspoiler would be the worst thing ever, because being forced into 7+1k as an 8k player is literally unplayable (to any degree of accuracy anyway) due to the key setup and the way it messes up visually.

I think you misread something. I specifically stated that I do not want the player forced to play 7k+ if they don't want to, since the patterns don't actually change.

Hell, like Drace said a check box in the settings would be fine. Like Drace mentioned in his edit, I think adding it to the fun spoiler settings is more in line with how peppy would implement it if he indeed chose to.

also i think you need to pass the song to change the visual settings

Not necessarily. Remember, some options are available right away, and some require map completion. It would be trivial to switch the requirements for this toggle so the player doesn't need to complete the map. However, I wouldn't be surprised if peppy decided that passing would be required :/

I would agree if that's how it was since the beginning, but this isn't the case. This problem only started occurring recently, I know since I play 8k regularly. This was so surprising when it first happened I thought about posting this in the bugs section instead. It just shouldn't be this way.

And to the mods: 8k doesn't have a big player base, first 8k map gets ranked and only like 10 people passed it a whole week later. We can't expect our voice to be as loud as most things that required changing in the past. Something happened when that song got ranked and so far not a single person supports it. Even multiple BATs and CATs are also against it.

It'd be nice if a mod could give us a bit of input and also clarify whether this was actually an update, or a glitch related to ranking the first 8k song.

I edited the first post to better present why this is a problem

Well, I am not an 8k player myself, but that just sounds so off, I agree with this not being a good idea and they should definitely change it so that you have a choice in which mode, 8k or 7+1, you could play. I know that if they did that do say a 6k map, and made 6+1, and forced me to play like that, I'd be upset too, I wouldn't be comfortable playing like that, nor would I be used to it.

I just wanted to point out that the BMS converts are actually a bit more different than you make the out to be. They are missing the 8th key, which removes something from the map.

Allowing payers to pick which 8k style they want wouldn't remove any notes from the chart itself it's purely cosmetic.

Yes but the reason why they feel different despite removing the special key is because the developers mapped them with the left-to-right style in mind. But we can still play em just fine with symmetrical style and we still see the map's style.

Edit: like I said in the first post, are they gonna force left-to-right style in the future like they're doing with 7k+1? Along with all these other styles out there?

I remember seeing the option of having N + 1 style on Editor and was like what the hell is this. Now I know what it is.
Having no option to change the style of play really affects the performance of a player and not to mention having to change settings every time you play. (which you mentioned) I'm not really a 8k player myself but this must be annoying.

I haven't seen any 8k players complain about this and that's because I don't think no one tried to stand up.
And I agree with xxbidiao. It's not because there aren't many 8k players. It's because there are like no 8k maps.
It's a big issue now because of a recent map with 5 difficulties of 8k.

I support this. Really hope this gets resolved.

Bump

Also, when I said "8K has a small playerbase", I meant it figuratively, and I was also talking about the current playerbase, not the prospective one. I didn't mean there was like 5-6 players, I meant you can't compare their playerbase to the 4K playerbase, 7K playerbase nor any of the other game mode's playerbase.

The point of that remark was simply to point out that a request for something in the 8K mode won't get as much attention as the other requests. It's something to consider if the mods weigh the priority of a request solely with the stars and post count.

This sounds like a bug, not a feature request. I've poked woc with it, so hopefully something will get done soon.

After further discussion with woc, we decided if there was a force override setting, basically every player would set it to true. Therefore, rather than mforcing each player to do this, the map setting is no longer enforced in any case.

In my 8K.ini settings I made the special key on the left to be bigger than the other 7 keys, which are of the same size.

But in this case with the "classic 8K" I had to change the size settings so that all the sizes of all the 8 keys will be the same.



So my opinion is: should I use separate settings for two different 8K modes?

Thanks peppy!
Thanks woc2006!

Great to have this resolved, thought about posting it the bugs, but other people in #osumania seemed aware about this so I wasn't sure.

And Garygoh884, there's no longer any need to learn both styles and switch between the two. Just need to play the style you're most comfortable with. If you want to discuss this a little more, the a thread about this in /osumania t/144685

Thanks again everyone~