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[Proposal] Remove spread requirements in mania

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richardfeder
1,056 posts
Joined March 2013
richardfeder
Current RC is way too restrictive, and it tries to enforcing the same spread pattern (E-N-H-I-X, and there are even detailed, but completely out-of-context terms that specifically define how each diff should look like) on every song and it is just a pure nonsense.

That being said, having a spread should still be a minimum requirement for rank section. We can and I think we should offer more freedom to mappers and let them design a proper spread so that rules are not forcing them to make difficulties that they are uncomfortable to make. Given them the option to start the lowest difficulty in the set/gap among all difficulties can be something. Given them the freedom to use whatever patterns they want in each difficulty and let any justifiable design go to rank section can also be something. There are a lot of ways for us to make constructing multiple difficulties that form a proper spread a lesser burden for mappers; nevertheless, in order to push their map to ranked section they should still at least provide a proper spread. If you want to rank a map you should at the bear minimum work for it, and completing a somewhat proper spread is part of that work.

We need some incentives for mappers who are going to rank their map to cover a spectrum but not only target at a very small, specific group of audiences. That is just unhealthy to the community as any player who are not the targeted audience will be left out, and this is not just about beginners. I think spread rule is good in that sense as it encourage mappers to cover at least a range of players. It doesn't have to be a very wide range that goes from easy to ultra, but it shouldn't be one single difficulty such as a Easy/Insane, and mapper just let everyone who doesn't enjoy Easy/Insane to screw themselves either. Spread is fine. It's just the way how we formulate and enforce it is quite broken.
[Ping]
498 posts
Joined April 2015
[Ping]

_VianK_ wrote:

abraker wrote:

_VianK_ wrote:

What i want to said for this quote is the ranked section is something osu! Official content for his comunity. If you felt too lazy to do it, Then don't do it. You shouldn't change the rule for coz of your lazinees. If you already felt that was too painfull you too finished one time, then take a break and finish it in next section. As a mapper no one ask US for make a chart first, we just do it coz we love it without any payment.
You can't call a mapper lazy if they are making over a hundred single difficulty maps. All effort and focus goes into making each difficulty great. Ranked is missing out on many many good maps because of this. osu! is not the only game that has people making maps. Mappers from stepmania made many great maps. Mappers who made those maps might be willing to rank if criteria allowed them to.

Who said the RC not allowed them?

If they want to rank their map on here, they have to study before how the system works here, not changing system for them. Actually word "lost" isn't really accurate since you can still play it even that was in the graveyard. Honestly i was really like map from stepmania chart too, but doing this for them (?) I think you go too far.

I guees you got the point.
The point of this is mainly because this was said by peppy that inactive graveyard maps will slowly being deleted - which is why this discussion is very much needed to preserve charts both ported from stepmania and made in osu! to continue staying on the website.
_VianK_
780 posts
Joined August 2015
_VianK_

[Ping] wrote:

_VianK_ wrote:

abraker wrote:

_VianK_ wrote:

What i want to said for this quote is the ranked section is something osu! Official content for his comunity. If you felt too lazy to do it, Then don't do it. You shouldn't change the rule for coz of your lazinees. If you already felt that was too painfull you too finished one time, then take a break and finish it in next section. As a mapper no one ask US for make a chart first, we just do it coz we love it without any payment.
You can't call a mapper lazy if they are making over a hundred single difficulty maps. All effort and focus goes into making each difficulty great. Ranked is missing out on many many good maps because of this. osu! is not the only game that has people making maps. Mappers from stepmania made many great maps. Mappers who made those maps might be willing to rank if criteria allowed them to.

Who said the RC not allowed them?

If they want to rank their map on here, they have to study before how the system works here, not changing system for them. Actually word "lost" isn't really accurate since you can still play it even that was in the graveyard. Honestly i was really like map from stepmania chart too, but doing this for them (?) I think you go too far.

I guees you got the point.
The point of this is mainly because this was said by peppy that inactive graveyard maps will slowly being deleted - which is why this discussion is very much needed to preserve charts both ported from stepmania and made in osu! to continue staying on the website.

I guess this thing is not really the solution it's like this community trying to sacrifice the standard of quality from the ranket set just for save chart from the other VSRG. If that was created for stepmania, that was for stepmania then. But if that was created for osu! Then it was for Osu!. Both of the game have their own standard. You cannot lowering this VSRG standard just coz for saving other converted other VSRG. Tbh allowing for just using hitnormal already drop the ranked section quality for mania dropped so far. So please, don't totally ruin it.

i have more than 100 map in my graveyard. Which just created for this VSRG. But should i Going to change the ranked standard just for saving them? I think it's a big no. Since there is quality criteria between ranked section and graveyard section.

Well, the solution i just can give to you is to back up the chart in somewhere else. Remember chart in stepmania are hosted in 3rd party cloud storage :")







OMG...... I have to back up my Grave map
Last edited by _VianK_ , edited 1 time in total.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,295 posts
Joined July 2014
Topic Starter
abraker

_VianK_ wrote:

abraker wrote:

_VianK_ wrote:

What i want to said for this quote is the ranked section is something osu! Official content for his comunity. If you felt too lazy to do it, Then don't do it. You shouldn't change the rule for coz of your lazinees. If you already felt that was too painfull you too finished one time, then take a break and finish it in next section. As a mapper no one ask US for make a chart first, we just do it coz we love it without any payment.
You can't call a mapper lazy if they are making over a hundred single difficulty maps. All effort and focus goes into making each difficulty great. Ranked is missing out on many many good maps because of this. osu! is not the only game that has people making maps. Mappers from stepmania made many great maps. Mappers who made those maps might be willing to rank if criteria allowed them to.

Who said the RC not allowed them?

If they want to rank their map on here, they have to study before how the system works here, not changing system for them. Actually word "lost" isn't really accurate since you can still play it even that was in the graveyard. Honestly i was really like map from stepmania chart too, but doing this for them (?) I think you go too far.

I guees you got the point.
RC does not allow them because those maps require full spreads. Those creators dont care about creating additional difficulties, so those difficulties will never be made. Even asking for gd wont happen because it's based on principle. Despite this, that doesnt make the maps themselves any worse. There are great maps we are loosing out on only because of this.

They are not "lost" now, but they will be lost in future if maps are left graveyarded. Peppy plans on turning on map purging sometime, and that will wipe a significant portion of those maps. If that wasnt a thing, I suppose they could be left graveyarded, but peppy instead requested to do what can be done to get those ranked instead. So here we are.
Last edited by abraker , edited 2 times in total.
_VianK_
780 posts
Joined August 2015
_VianK_

abraker wrote:

_VianK_ wrote:

abraker wrote:

_VianK_ wrote:

What i want to said for this quote is the ranked section is something osu! Official content for his comunity. If you felt too lazy to do it, Then don't do it. You shouldn't change the rule for coz of your lazinees. If you already felt that was too painfull you too finished one time, then take a break and finish it in next section. As a mapper no one ask US for make a chart first, we just do it coz we love it without any payment.
You can't call a mapper lazy if they are making over a hundred single difficulty maps. All effort and focus goes into making each difficulty great. Ranked is missing out on many many good maps because of this. osu! is not the only game that has people making maps. Mappers from stepmania made many great maps. Mappers who made those maps might be willing to rank if criteria allowed them to.

Who said the RC not allowed them?

If they want to rank their map on here, they have to study before how the system works here, not changing system for them. Actually word "lost" isn't really accurate since you can still play it even that was in the graveyard. Honestly i was really like map from stepmania chart too, but doing this for them (?) I think you go too far.

I guees you got the point.
RC does not allow them because those maps require full spreads. Those creators dont care about creating additional difficulties, so those difficulties will never be made. Even asking for gd wont happen because it's based on principle. Despite this, that doesnt make the maps themselves any worse. There are great maps we are loosing out on only because of this.

They are not "lost" now, but they will be lost in future if maps are left graveyarded. Peppy plans on turning on map purging sometime, and that will wipe a significant portion of those maps.
See?

If the creator it self don't care. Why you have to sacrifice our standard. Isn't really worthed to do.

If they are really care about their map. They have to do more effort than just making proposal.

This reply are making me more believe that this proposal is just about



LAZINESS
Last edited by _VianK_ , edited 2 times in total.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,295 posts
Joined July 2014
Topic Starter
abraker

_VianK_ wrote:

[Ping] wrote:

_VianK_ wrote:

abraker wrote:

_VianK_ wrote:

What i want to said for this quote is the ranked section is something osu! Official content for his comunity. If you felt too lazy to do it, Then don't do it. You shouldn't change the rule for coz of your lazinees. If you already felt that was too painfull you too finished one time, then take a break and finish it in next section. As a mapper no one ask US for make a chart first, we just do it coz we love it without any payment.
You can't call a mapper lazy if they are making over a hundred single difficulty maps. All effort and focus goes into making each difficulty great. Ranked is missing out on many many good maps because of this. osu! is not the only game that has people making maps. Mappers from stepmania made many great maps. Mappers who made those maps might be willing to rank if criteria allowed them to.

Who said the RC not allowed them?

If they want to rank their map on here, they have to study before how the system works here, not changing system for them. Actually word "lost" isn't really accurate since you can still play it even that was in the graveyard. Honestly i was really like map from stepmania chart too, but doing this for them (?) I think you go too far.

I guees you got the point.
The point of this is mainly because this was said by peppy that inactive graveyard maps will slowly being deleted - which is why this discussion is very much needed to preserve charts both ported from stepmania and made in osu! to continue staying on the website.

I guess this thing is not really the solution it's like this community trying to sacrifice the standard of quality from the ranket set just for save chart from the other VSRG. If that was created for stepmania, that was for stepmania then. But if that was created for osu! Then it was for Osu!. Both of the game have their own standard. You cannot lowering this VSRG standard just coz for saving other converted other VSRG. Tbh allowing for just using hitnormal already drop the ranked section quality for mania dropped so far. So please, don't totally ruin it.
Why the hell are we judging quality by quantity and not by the enjoyability of individual difficulties themselves? Why osu so backwards ??

_VianK_ wrote:

See? If the creator it self don't care. Why you have to sacrifice our standard. Isn't really worthed to do.
What? Creators care that people enjoy the maps they make. It's a dedicated craft. They dont care making maps to fill some silly criteria.
Last edited by abraker , edited 2 times in total.
_VianK_
780 posts
Joined August 2015
_VianK_

abraker wrote:

_VianK_ wrote:

[Ping] wrote:

_VianK_ wrote:

abraker wrote:

_VianK_ wrote:

What i want to said for this quote is the ranked section is something osu! Official content for his comunity. If you felt too lazy to do it, Then don't do it. You shouldn't change the rule for coz of your lazinees. If you already felt that was too painfull you too finished one time, then take a break and finish it in next section. As a mapper no one ask US for make a chart first, we just do it coz we love it without any payment.
You can't call a mapper lazy if they are making over a hundred single difficulty maps. All effort and focus goes into making each difficulty great. Ranked is missing out on many many good maps because of this. osu! is not the only game that has people making maps. Mappers from stepmania made many great maps. Mappers who made those maps might be willing to rank if criteria allowed them to.

Who said the RC not allowed them?

If they want to rank their map on here, they have to study before how the system works here, not changing system for them. Actually word "lost" isn't really accurate since you can still play it even that was in the graveyard. Honestly i was really like map from stepmania chart too, but doing this for them (?) I think you go too far.

I guees you got the point.
The point of this is mainly because this was said by peppy that inactive graveyard maps will slowly being deleted - which is why this discussion is very much needed to preserve charts both ported from stepmania and made in osu! to continue staying on the website.

I guess this thing is not really the solution it's like this community trying to sacrifice the standard of quality from the ranket set just for save chart from the other VSRG. If that was created for stepmania, that was for stepmania then. But if that was created for osu! Then it was for Osu!. Both of the game have their own standard. You cannot lowering this VSRG standard just coz for saving other converted other VSRG. Tbh allowing for just using hitnormal already drop the ranked section quality for mania dropped so far. So please, don't totally ruin it.
Why the hell are we judging quality by quantity and not by the enjoyability of individual difficulties themselves? Why osu so backwards ??

_VianK_ wrote:

See? If the creator it self don't care. Why you have to sacrifice our standard. Isn't really worthed to do.
What? Creators care that people enjoy the maps they make. It's a dedicated craft. They dont care making maps to fill some silly criteria.
Of course not. But don't forget if lower diff also have their own enjoyability, not only insane + + diff, if it cannot enjoyable for insane player, it means thats not for them, but for lower player. Thats why we have modding section. Our modder help to improve that thing (unless your mod just only based on RC). Thats make o!m different with Stepmania, we have modding section. But in stepmania once it done, it just need to submitted in somewhere else.

Fulfill the criteria is the most. Crafting a map for pleasure is the reason why that was mapped. But fulfill the criteria is more like the process for ranked section. That was really different thing.


finally i just wanna said If they are don't want to do it and Don't care about it. Then let it be.


Don't Go too far.....

Edit : i didn't notice this

"but peppy instead requested to do what can be done to get those ranked instead. So here we are."

Why not loved section?? That's perfectly suitable
Last edited by _VianK_ , edited 3 times in total.
richardfeder
1,056 posts
Joined March 2013
richardfeder
I think altering RC to salvage chart in graveyard doesn't sound quite right. We have a loved category specifically for maps that doesn't quite fit RC but still deserve to be archived. If we want to quickly put all those maps in a permanent place then we might want to make loved more accessible to those maps, not trying to push them into ranked section. And to be honest I think with the help of lvd team that process might just be way shorter than letting bns who are overwhelmed by requests to manually check maps one by one.

RC is quite broken, but fixing RC isn't a suitable way to address this graveyard issue.
Last edited by richardfeder , edited 1 time in total.
_VianK_
780 posts
Joined August 2015
_VianK_

richardfeder wrote:

I think altering RC to salvage chart in graveyard doesn't sound quite right. We have a loved cataloger specifically for maps that doesn't quite fit RC but still deserve to be archived. If we want to quickly put all those maps in a permanent place then we might want to make loved more accessible to those maps, not trying to push them into ranked section. And to be honest I think with the help of lvd team that process might just be way shorter than letting bns who are overwhelmed by requests to manually check maps one by one.

RC is quite broken, but fixing RC isn't a suitable way to address this graveyard issue.
Strongly agree with this.
Ventilo le vrai
126 posts
Joined December 2018
Ventilo le vrai

_VianK_ wrote:

You cannot lowering this VSRG standard just coz for saving other converted other VSRG. Tbh allowing for just using hitnormal already drop the ranked section quality for mania dropped so far. So please, don't totally ruin it.
Most of RC has no relation to quality, and if you think that the ranked section has high quality standards, you just don't know what is in the ranked section because some ranked maps are... what they are

_VianK_ wrote:

Why not loved section?? That's perfectly suitable
Hmmmm I wonder if you know that only few maps get loved every months, in October we got 16 new loved maps and that's a huge improvement compared to what we were used to, but we can't put everything into the loved section because there is just to many good classic maps that can't be ranked.
_VianK_
780 posts
Joined August 2015
_VianK_

Ventilo le vrai wrote:

_VianK_ wrote:

You cannot lowering this VSRG standard just coz for saving other converted other VSRG. Tbh allowing for just using hitnormal already drop the ranked section quality for mania dropped so far. So please, don't totally ruin it.
Most of RC has no relation to quality, and if you think that the ranked section has high quality standards, you just don't know what is in the ranked section because some ranked maps are... what they are //


_VianK_ wrote:

Why not loved section?? That's perfectly suitable
Hmmmm I wonder if you know that only few maps get loved every months, in October we got 16 new loved maps and that's a huge improvement compared to what we were used to, but we can't put everything into the loved section because there is just to many good classic maps that can't be ranked.

i know... But thats back to the mapper mapping style, and you cannot blame them coz of that. But at least they care to fulfill the criteria.

Your second argument isn't makes sense tbh. If you can try to do this for ranked section, then put them to the loved section is more easier to do. I i think for this case there is should be special excpetion since you're said asked by Peppy too.
Baio
35 posts
Joined December 2019
Baio
I believe the mania ranking system has some big issues outside of just the requirements. A very giant issue with current system is that there are not enough BNs. Even if you managed to meet the extensive amount of rules and guidelines as well as the unwritten ones, finding a BN is still a massive roadblock. BN queues are closed more often than not. Found one that's open? Cross your fingers because they probably require you have another BN lined up. I think the requirements for becoming a BN should be more lenient so we can get more BNs. This would increase the number of open BN queues so going for ranked is even a possibility. Taiko has more BNs despite the fact mania is much larger. While I don't have as much experience with taiko, I would wager they don't have the same issues with ranking that taiko does.

I think the Quaver system is great example of what the ranking system can be. Quaver ranking has a focus on playability, not a large page a rules and regulations. If a map plays well and has no obvious reason for why it does not fit with the ranked category, why should it not be ranked? Being a BN in mania is a powerful position and it just feels like(from my outsider perspective) BNs are forced to have unreasonably high standards so that they don't lose their BN status. This negatively affects the community's perception of ranking a beatmap.

In my experience with trying to get a map ranked, I was told by other players numerous times to not even try for reasons such as: I don't have the right connections, I don't have enough experience (in other words, a long list of graveyarded beatmaps), and because it is too much work that it is not worth it. The first person I ever met who did not have disdain for the ranking process was a BN. Overall, the ranking community from what I have seen, is considered unapproachable by the average player.

Personally, I now go to Quaver if I want to get a map ranked. I still map and upload to Osu because I like the engine, the editor, and have more friends on Osu. If Peppy truly intends to purge the graveyard section, mania will take a serious hit, regardless of whether or not ranked gets fixed, although it would still be nice to address the issues with ranked. I agree that relaxed RC is a step in the right direction but I don't think it will solve any problems. Mainly, I think we simply need more BNs.
guden
160 posts
Joined January 2018
guden

Baiohazado wrote:

BNs are forced to have unreasonably high standards so that they don't lose their BN status. This negatively affects the community's perception of ranking a beatmap.
There's a lot to unpack here, but I feel like this is not the appropriate thread to be bringing up these issues. Nonetheless, I think it's important to bring up these claims as it's a popular opinion amongst the community that is so entirely misguided.

Baio

Baiohazado wrote:

BNs are forced to have unreasonably high standards so that they don't lose their BN status. This negatively affects the community's perception of ranking a beatmap.
This confuses me, what unreasonably high standards are BNs held to? The requirements right now can allow you to easily get through just by having mediocre modding ability and a decent amount of activity. Becoming a BN and staying as one, is not that hard, and I am saying this as someone who recently joined this year. They have even made it more accessible for current BNs to stay IN the BNG or return later. In my and many other's experiences, it is not difficult to ask for feedback on your mods, ask for ways to improve and even seek guidance on learning such. There's even discord channels and entire programs dedicated to teaching mappers how to mod properly and how to improve to "BN quality level." If you think BNs are held to unreasonable standards, I'd like you to take a look at mods half of the BNG makes. I'd also like you to take a look at the ecosystem currently held in qualified -> rank and then reconsider what are these standards you speak of. At best, your claim is misguided and you failed to do much consideration of the current ranked ecosystem.

Baiohazado wrote:

I think the Quaver system is great example of what the ranking system can be...
This paragraph seems to not take into account that Quaver's system has countless faults and a lot of their solutions to "osu!mania problems" are just band-aid fixes. I think it's ironic that you bring up Quaver's "focus on playability" since I've noticed over the years that Quaver's Ranking Supervisor team's goal is extremely inconsistent, even after talking directly with those who were involved with the team. The queue system of Quaver had it's fair share of issues as well, with it being extremely overloaded, charts taking MONTHS to even be looked at. Now imagine pulling that over to osu!mania, it would be even worse especially since there's a wider audience of people that migrate and start on osu!mania. I think it's obvious to tell that it would not end well.

It'd also be great if you could elaborate on the "large page a rules and regulations." This is very vague and I'm not quite sure what you're exactly referring to. The osu!mania specific ranking criteria? What rules specifically? Did you take into account that most of the RC is guidelines and these guidelines can be broken if necessary? I feel like a lot of the community shares this misguided opinion on the RC being some sentient being that must be followed, and that it's super strict and long. When that's really not the case whatsoever.

If you're talking about the "high standard of quality" for osu!mania... I'd like you to again comb through what gets ranked each week. I think now, the quality of charts has improved on average... but it's not the standard. It's not even an unwritten rule, since some BNs will nominate extremely low quality charts. (I'd like to add that when I say quality, I'm also including the playablity factor as apart of it. Since mapping is more than just one aspect, it's multiple elements that come together to create a cohesive product).

I am not denying that osu!mania has problems with the current system, and I think there should be a lot more changes beyond this. osu!mania DOES need more BNs, but sacrificing quality over quantity is not the way to go. I'm all for promoting programs and helping mappers attain their goals of becoming a BN. But lowering the already low standards will create more problems, Quaver's history with ranked is a prime example of what we should NOT be doing.

Last thing I'd like to mention, please look at the the statistics before claiming that relaxation of spread will not solve any problems. This data clearly shows that it will create progress towards motivating more mappers to rank their charts. You can already see this with the influx of more well established charters starting to open up to ranking things after the hitsound addition requirement was removed. I'm sure with this, it will open up more charters that BNs want to push into the ranked section and allow BNs to reach a wider audience of whom they could not reach before. Again, one of the original problems is that well established charters did not want to push their charts into the ranked section. These proposals were done to hopefully solve this issue. The problem of it being difficult for new charters to get into the ranked system is an entirely different thread for an entirely different discussion (though these changes will certainly have some sort of impact on that issue).

Clearing up some misconceptions in the thread...

Please stop treating Loved as if it's some dumpster for maps that couldn't make it to rank for XYZ reason. That's literally not the goal of loved, and I'm sure the loved team has reiterated this over and over again. Loved has it's OWN goal separate from Ranked, so treat them that way please.

I think some people in this thread failed to read the original threads as a lot of these topics are being brought up again despite already having previous discussion on such. An example is..

richardfeder wrote:

If we want to quickly put all those maps in a permanent place then we might want to make loved more accessible to those maps


Peppy confirmed that this was his original goal for ranked though, and it's something that is still relatively true to this day. And again Loved has it's OWN separate goal aside from ranked, so stop treating them as if they are similar.

As for the overall thread, I think the consensus from both the survey results and the arguments throughout the thread is that there's strong reasonings for relaxation, and also for wanting removal entirely. Sometime in the very near future a new proposal thread should be posted that hopefully reaches a middle ground for this. It has been discussed in the BN server amongst the mania BNG to create a new proposal that is hopefully more guided by the overall community's interests.
Last edited by guden , edited 5 times in total.
_VianK_
780 posts
Joined August 2015
_VianK_
if this really applied, i hope it doesn't last longer. I very scary if the beginner player don't have any new ranked diff to play in the future. Thats why i strongly reject this proposal.
Last edited by _VianK_ , edited 1 time in total.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,295 posts
Joined July 2014
Topic Starter
abraker

_VianK_ wrote:

if this really applied, i hope it doesn't last longer. I very scary if the beginner player don't have any new ranked diff to play in the future. Thats why i strongly reject this proposal.
You can't possibly think that there will not be any new diffs for beginners to play. For that to happen
  1. The BN need collectively agree to reject spreads that have diffs for beginner players. This is like wtf levels of not ever happening.
  2. All mappers need to never map difficulties for beginner players. This is very unlikely to happen. BN can also bias toward ranking easier diffs by prioritizing checks for spreads containing them.
Can we expect less easier difficulties? Yes. That's expected. Will there be a content drought of easier difficulties? Not likely.

there is a content drought of extreme diffs but it seems nobody seems to bat an eye for that
_VianK_
780 posts
Joined August 2015
_VianK_

abraker wrote:

_VianK_ wrote:

if this really applied, i hope it doesn't last longer. I very scary if the beginner player don't have any new ranked diff to play in the future. Thats why i strongly reject this proposal.
You can't possibly think that there will not be any new diffs for beginners to play. For that to happen
  1. The BN need collectively agree to reject spreads that have diffs for beginner players. This is like wtf levels of not ever happening.
  2. All mappers need to never map difficulties for beginner players. This is very unlikely to happen. BN can also bias toward ranking easier diffs by prioritizing checks for spreads containing them.
Can we expect less easier difficulties? Yes. That's expected. Will there be a content drought of easier difficulties? Not likely.

there is a content drought of extreme diffs but it seems nobody seems to bat an eye for that

I know, but actually happen is the lower diff is created just only for completing the rule since the most of mapper are enjoying to make higher diff only. If this is not exist anymore, they would said "why we should make lower diff? We can just go with single diff or why we should care of lower even we don't enjoy the map, etc." Because of that, the easier diff Will slowly disappeared and make this VSRG Will not beginner any friendly anymore.

Even the BN try to collecting to nominate full spread and single spread map, The ranked section in the future would be just dominated by single insane + diff. Since to find the map with the full of spread would be extremely rare.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,295 posts
Joined July 2014
Topic Starter
abraker

_VianK_ wrote:

abraker wrote:

_VianK_ wrote:

if this really applied, i hope it doesn't last longer. I very scary if the beginner player don't have any new ranked diff to play in the future. Thats why i strongly reject this proposal.
You can't possibly think that there will not be any new diffs for beginners to play. For that to happen
  1. The BN need collectively agree to reject spreads that have diffs for beginner players. This is like wtf levels of not ever happening.
  2. All mappers need to never map difficulties for beginner players. This is very unlikely to happen. BN can also bias toward ranking easier diffs by prioritizing checks for spreads containing them.
Can we expect less easier difficulties? Yes. That's expected. Will there be a content drought of easier difficulties? Not likely.

there is a content drought of extreme diffs but it seems nobody seems to bat an eye for that

I know, but actually happen is the lower diff is created just only for completing the rule since the most of mapper are enjoying to make higher diff only. If this is not exist anymore, they would said "why we should make lower diff? We can just go with single diff or why we should care of lower even we don't enjoy the map, etc." Because of that, the easier diff Will slowly disappeared and make this VSRG Will not beginner any friendly anymore.

Even the BN try to collecting to nominate full spread and single spread map, The ranked section in the future would be just dominated by single insane + diff. Since to find the map with the full of spread would be extremely rare.
This has a lot of assumptions and generalizations. Not all spreads mappers create have lower diffs created solely to satisfy the criteria.
Last edited by abraker , edited 1 time in total.
richardfeder
1,056 posts
Joined March 2013
richardfeder

guden wrote:

Clearing up some misconceptions in the thread...

Please stop treating Loved as if it's some dumpster for maps that couldn't make it to rank for XYZ reason. That's literally not the goal of loved, and I'm sure the loved team has reiterated this over and over again. Loved has it's OWN goal separate from Ranked, so treat them that way please.

I think some people in this thread failed to read the original threads as a lot of these topics are being brought up again despite already having previous discussion on such. An example is..

richardfeder wrote:

If we want to quickly put all those maps in a permanent place then we might want to make loved more accessible to those maps


Peppy confirmed that this was his original goal for ranked though, and it's something that is still relatively true to this day. And again Loved has it's OWN separate goal aside from ranked, so stop treating them as if they are similar.
I am very confused by the direction of where this is going. Nobody treats Loved as some dumpster I don't know where did you get this sentiment. I am merely stating that in my opinion, regarding the whole graveyard issue we have better alternatives other than reshaping RC just to accommodate these specific maps. And I believe that Lvd teams are way more flexible dealing with this type of maps and can act way quicker than BNs who are already very occupied.

And everything above is irrelevant to the discussion in the thread. We are evaluating the potential drawback and aftermath of altering RC here, and while the graveyard issue provides a good starting point for us to reflect on current rules, it is not the only problem that we need to address. There are bigger implications in the changes that we are about to make beyond just getting awesome graveyard maps to ranked section, such as removing incentives for future mappers to provide entertainment to a wider audiences. My whole point of mentioning this in my post is that if we only want to solve the graveyard issue, there might be better options in my opinion, as changing RC affects way beyond just graveyard maps and I am concerned about its aftermath.
Last edited by richardfeder , edited 1 time in total.
_VianK_
780 posts
Joined August 2015
_VianK_

abraker wrote:

_VianK_ wrote:

abraker wrote:

_VianK_ wrote:

if this really applied, i hope it doesn't last longer. I very scary if the beginner player don't have any new ranked diff to play in the future. Thats why i strongly reject this proposal.
You can't possibly think that there will not be any new diffs for beginners to play. For that to happen
  1. The BN need collectively agree to reject spreads that have diffs for beginner players. This is like wtf levels of not ever happening.
  2. All mappers need to never map difficulties for beginner players. This is very unlikely to happen. BN can also bias toward ranking easier diffs by prioritizing checks for spreads containing them.
Can we expect less easier difficulties? Yes. That's expected. Will there be a content drought of easier difficulties? Not likely.

there is a content drought of extreme diffs but it seems nobody seems to bat an eye for that

I know, but actually happen is the lower diff is created just only for completing the rule since the most of mapper are enjoying to make higher diff only. If this is not exist anymore, they would said "why we should make lower diff? We can just go with single diff or why we should care of lower even we don't enjoy the map, etc." Because of that, the easier diff Will slowly disappeared and make this VSRG Will not beginner any friendly anymore.

Even the BN try to collecting to nominate full spread and single spread map, The ranked section in the future would be just dominated by single insane + diff. Since to find the map with the full of spread would be extremely rare.
This has a lot of assumptions and generalizations. Not all spreads mappers create have lower diffs created solely to satisfy the criteria.
Let's see whats happen in the future then.
Last edited by _VianK_ , edited 1 time in total.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,295 posts
Joined July 2014
Topic Starter
abraker
Archiving due to inadequate support for the proposal.

Decision is split, but more in favor of not removing spreads completely. Leading argument for why not to remove spreads completely is the lack of easier difficulties it is believed that will cause.

This has been superseded by community/forums/topics/1440933
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