Kantan 00:53:741 (42) - and 02:02:313 (42) - delete these; can provide a call and response rhythm pattern while maintaining low enough difficulty level.
Kantan and Futts HP5. HP4 makes you pass incredibly early.

Edit:
Edit2: dafuq you moved it to works in progress

those: why you bubble a taiko only map?

We should let the map stay on current situation until this is settled. Any BAT please do not do redundant things.

popner wrote:

those: why you bubble a taiko only map?

We should let the map stay on current situation until this is settled. Any BAT please do not do redundant things.

I have to self pop over some 1/6 that got messed up when resnapping all notes, so there is no need to make a big deal about this.

popner wrote:

those: why you bubble a taiko only map?

What's wrong with me bubbling a taiko only map when I clearly know what I'm doing?

one suggestion in oni. It's good, bubbled!

。。。

okay, I finally decide to mod this since there are no more other bubbles I can check ._. A long and detailed mod is coming.


Will finish this mod asap.

those wrote:

popner wrote:

those: why you bubble a taiko only map?

What's wrong with me bubbling a taiko only map when I clearly know what I'm doing?

Say that again.


Anyway, kanpakyin quoted me a bit wrong, since this was for another map I modded before.
Here the right one:


So yes. Overall nice map-set. Just add another Kantan and everything should be fine.

those's bubble has been revoked. Please do not bubble game modes you are officially uncommon with (refer to internal regulations here)

OnosakiHito wrote:

Say that again.

Damn.

But those has quite a bit of taiko ranked maps and stuff. So like, idunno, considering that there aren't any taiko-specific BATs, it seems ok from a normal-user perspective.

idunno, though, and it'd not worth making the thread into a giant discussion or anything.

Go go MMzz woo woo.

Sorry to say I don't agree that this kantan is too hard, and I dont believe in making things obnoxiously easy. I will look at your suggestions though, KPY. I've been mapping kantan like this for quite some time and it has been successful. And the terms of making kantan/futsuu etc us too ambiguous and should be discussed more before we can have any set details to what is too hard. "You cant do xxx because it is too hard, or confusing for a new player" is pretty silly and subjective. There needs to be more detail and facts on what said players can and cant do.

1. Kantan needs 1/2 and slightly heavy 1/1 with rhythm in color changes. This prepares and educates a new player for futsuu. Of course a new player won't learn this instantly, it will take them some time to learn. They will not learn off a map that is straight 1/1 with a straight rhythm for 3 minutes.
2. Then Futsuu, where it needs to be heavier in the use of 1/2 and a more constant 1/1, basically a more difficult version of the kantan, with the song's rhythm of course. It then prepares the player for the heavy useage of 1/2 that is to come in Muzukashii, but alas, that is always a huge step no matter what you do!
3. In Muzukashii you have the almost constant use of 1/2 patterns and introduction of 1/4, this prepares the player for what is to come in Oni.
4. Oni is a little too ambiguous to write about, because it can go from super insane to pretty average, like this map. But in terms of this mapset, the Oni is a combination of everything you have learned throughout the difficulties, in the song's format!

This isn't to be used for all mapsets. This is how THIS MAP, works. Other maps are different, you can put them into one theory like this.
The only room for another difficulty is something BELOW Kantan, and that isn't happening because that is just a waste of time for me.

Anyways. Noobies can't do everything on their first try, they need to learn patterns and rhythm, that is what I supply. I don't supply a obnoxious Kantan made in 5 minutes that is all 1/1. I take my time to analyze the rhythm and put it in the most simple format available so it is easy, enjoyable, and education for someone who isn't very experienced in this game. I hope you can respect that, and observe my difficulty curve.

Some plays because I asked around in #modhelp: These are all sightreads.

Somehow the more plays the worse it gets. lol.

Just some response to MMzz's post. I do agree with kpy and ono that the current kantan is more like a futsuu instead, and a real kantan is missing.

MMzz wrote:

And the terms of making kantan/futsuu etc us too ambiguous and should be discussed more before we can have any set details to what is too hard. "You cant do xxx because it is too hard, or confusing for a new player" is pretty silly and subjective. There needs to be more detail and facts on what said players can and cant do.

It's true that there's no solid rules saying whether a kantan is too hard, but this is also a reason why modders have to judge the difficulty "subjectively" and see if the kantan is friendly enough to new players. I don't think "You cant do xxx because it is too hard, or confusing for a new player" is an invalid argument because that shows a concern from a modder about the difficulty of certain parts of the diff. I'll say you should look at the parts mentioned by kpy seriously, and remember to give concrete reasons on why rejecting some fixes.

MMzz wrote:

Kantan needs 1/2 and slightly heavy 1/1 with rhythm in color changes. This prepares and educates a new player for futsuu. Of course a new player won't learn this instantly, it will take them some time to learn. They will not learn off a map that is straight 1/1 with a straight rhythm for 3 minutes.

Maybe what you said doesn't really apply to all players, at least not for me.
Back in 2008, when I had no experience in playing rhythm games, I found taiko and it became my 1st rhythm game. At that time I just had very poor musical sense and could not even play 1/2s properly. I had to improve myself by trying to FC the simplest kantans. The fact is that "a map that is straight 1/1 with a straight rhythm for 3 minutes." does teach me a lot in 2008.

I do believe that having a FC means I can understand the rhythm expressed by the notes and the ways to identify colors and patterns well, so I really think a diff that has a difficulty of slightly lower than one's skill level is still very beneficial to the player.

From the 4 screenshots you provided, none of the players made a FC, and 2 of them got C with < 85% acc. This is actually a very convincing proof that your kantan is not that easy for new players. I believe a player will learn the most if they get acc of >95% with confirmed or almost FC. For cases like 80% C, players will probably mess some parts up and have no idea on how to improve effectively.

MMzz wrote:

The only room for another difficulty is something BELOW Kantan, and that isn't happening because that is just a waste of time for me.

As I said above, the current kantan looks like futsuu rather than kantan. Making an easier diff is not really below kantan.
And also, I don't think you should treat creating a easier diff as a waste of time. I believe a mapper has the responsibility to create a mapset that can be enjoyed by all kinds of players, no matter if he's cookiezi-like pro or simply a noob. Lack of newbie-friendly diffs is actually the reason why many players in osu are not willing to play taiko. Many have interest in taiko, but simply have no maps that are easy enough ( eg High acc + FCable, or almost ) to get started.

OnosakiHito wrote:

14:25 OnosakiHito: Yes, I would suggest the same.
14:25 OnosakiHito: Making a new Kantan and renameing this one to Futsuu.

tl;dr : Current kantan is just too hard. Don't be lazy and make an even easier diff, please.

The Kantan is not hard at all.



ps. FWIW I can't FC the Futsuu or Muzu on a sightread like I did on the Kantan.

From the 4 screenshots you provided, none of the players made a FC, and 2 of them got C with < 85% acc. This is actually a very convincing proof that your kantan is not that easy for new players. I believe a player will learn the most if they get acc of >95% with confirmed or almost FC. For cases like 80% C, players will probably mess some parts up and have no idea on how to improve effectively.

A player that has barely ever played the game needs to get 95% on their sightread to be considered a proper difficulty? That is nonsense. 85% is even high for a new player that is assumed to have no experience in rhythm or this game at all. Accuracy and pattern reading are completely different by the way.

And calling me lazy is very insulting as I put a lot of time into this mapset.

Maybe what you said doesn't really apply to all players, at least not for me.
Back in 2008, when I had no experience in playing rhythm games, I found taiko and it became my 1st rhythm game. At that time I just had very poor musical sense and could not even play 1/2s properly. I had to improve myself by trying to FC the simplest kantans. The fact is that "a map that is straight 1/1 with a straight rhythm for 3 minutes." does teach me a lot in 2008.

You obviously didn't understand what I was conveying in my explanation of the purpose in this mapset, and that is it exclusive for this map only, not every map ever. That might be your personal story but not everyone is that way, and we can't assume such.

Even if my Kantan is little harder than other "Kantans", that is not as of a bad thing that you are all playing it out to be. What is the harm in having a Kantan with a slightly higher star rating? (as in, 1-10star system we use.) Why can't I label my Kantan as a difficulty for those who can do easier Kantans, but not quite play the common Futsuu difficulty? This difficulty isn't anywhere close to a Futsuu! So why does every Kantan have to be the same? That is what you guys are trying to promote, and it is a tad bit silly.

I'm sure even the TnT games of a variety of Kantan ratings because of different song selections. It is called game design. Having an small curve, regardless of difficulty name isn't bad. Of course it is harder to do in osu! because of the massive song selection, compared to a game like TnT that would have limited songs. Not even exclusively to TnT, every rhythm game does this.

1) There's no rule on how Kantan difficulties NEED to be mapped in only 1/1.
2) I thought that as a BAT, you need to suggest ideas and find unrankable issues with the map, then fix them. Not be subjective on what can and cannot be in a difficulty.

These patterns are VERY spaced out. Anybody should have the right mindset of going into rhythm games to learn how to have some sense of beat. The usual 1/1 patterns aren't teaching anything. With simple 1/2 doubles, especially being spaced out from everything else and being a single color, these teach the start of patterns in taiko. Creating a new difficulty curve for one person's mind to actually learn something about taiko. The patterns are hard at Muzu/Oni level, and I will not go into Inner Oni level. But the bottom line is, this teaches new players that patterns are a thing. That getting used to a simple pattern will mean a lot in the future if they continue on playing the game mode. 1/1 patterns are just checking if the person can keep a tempo, or a simple beat. While 1/2 is teaching a pattern, and showing a fun way to play the game mode. So eh. The Kantan here tries to show how you can keep a simple beat, while adding variety and teaches a player how to hit a normal pattern.

There's a little something called a tutorial to learn about keeping a beat. Which there are tutorials.

kanpakyin wrote:

okay, I finally decide to mod this since there are no more other bubbles I can check ._. A long and detailed mod is coming.

still modding it

[Kantan]

1. HP -1 for this diff?
2. hum, here is something from two another experienced taiko mapper which I want to quote it to you. I know you are an experienced mapper, but I still want to quote this to you:
   

   lepidopodus wrote:

   - Generally too hard for Easy. Currently there are too many 1/2 patterns with don/kat alterations. Make them to minimum first.
   - Also, try use less don/kat alterations even it is 1/1 patterns.
   - I usually recommend to have minimum 1.5-beat-long gap between drum roll/spinner and the next note in Kantan since switching between them is quite hard for beginners.

3. OnosakiHito wrote:

   A Kantan diff. has mostly monton 1/1 notes with less kat variation, while kiai has just some 1/2 notes. But here you have used allready muzukashii level patterns which a beginner can't deal with. Also there are too many finisher in the Kantan.

   Somehow I found what they said is reasonable, and this kantan is quite diffiuclt for newbie, why not make it more newbie-friendly? If you don't want to simplify this diff, I will suggest an alternative method to you: you can rename this diff as Futsuu, and then make a new Kantan. Also, aabc do agree with this.
   And the following is some pattern and rhythm mod:
4. 00:10:884 (13) - I would suggest changing this note to kat to fit this (00:13:741 (19,20,21,22) - ) pattern and to reduce the dificulty of this diff. (and it fits the music so don't worry ._.) I know you may want to make some variation here but consider it is a kantan, we should avoid doing that and try to make this diff as a newbie-friendly diff right? Sure.
5. 00:17:415 (27) - ^
6. 00:43:129 (18,19) - A rhythm suggestion here. I think you can move these 2 notes to 00:42:925 - and 00:43:333 - as you are following the vocal at 00:41:496 - to 00:42:517 - . You can remain your current pattern as it fits the pitch pretty well :p I prioritize the rhythm over the vocal so I'm not going to change this. It would also create a weird contrast between the two rhythms that breaks the consistency I am for and newer players would thrive with.
7. 00:57:415 (49) - I think you can consider a big kat here because of the high pitch. Big kat can fits the music quite well and it can make the pattern more consistent with 01:00:680 (55,56,57,58) - . (and this also can reduce the difficulty, kill three birds with one stone <_<) This disrupts the rhythm I have in place, I can't agree to that. I can remove the finishes though if you are super concerned about difficulty.
8. 01:08:435 (73,74) - Personally I don't really like putting slider in Kantan diff especially for 1/2 distance, they may not be able to respond this kind of spacing and slidertick. I can agree with you, but at the same time you cannot miss on a slider, nor can we guarantee the newer players can even do 1/4 properly. (I wish we could change the slider ticks.) So all in all this is a placeholder for a strong resemblance to the music. I could change it a little so there is a pause before the slider, but I'm not sure what good that will do for the success on the slider anyways. So I would rather stick with the consistent beat I already have in place.
9. 01:22:721 (13) - I would suggest using d here to make a strong contrast to previous part. (what I suggest to use at 00:10:884 (13) -)
10. 01:30:068 (29) - How about to consider a strong kat here? The reason of using big note is to emphasize the strong downbeat there. The reason of using kat is to fit the pitch. Since you used a big don at 01:31:496 (30) - , a big kat there will make a contrast to show the difference and make it more impressive imo.I don't like the use of a finisher here because the beat drops and that will give the wrong impression of what is happening in the music, plus there isn't much of a finish sound here, just a strong beat.
11. 01:38:639 (45,46) - Similar to 00:43:129 (18,19) -
12. 02:14:558 (67) - I personally think that it would be much better if you could place this note at 02:14:353 - because I don't hear there is any drum at 02:14:558 - but 02:14:353 - instead. (You may consider adding a note at 02:14:762 - after doing this if you want to rename this to Futsuu.) There is definitely a snare drum there.
13. 02:17:211 (74) - Personally I don't really like putting slider in Kantan diff especially for 1/2 distance, they may not be able to respond this kind of spacing and slidertick. (This is fine in Futsuu)
14. 02:34:965 (20) - Same as 02:14:558 (67) -
15. 02:37:618 (27) - Same as 02:17:211 (74) -

Will finish this mod asap.

Added some stuff, read the post. Also made an easier diff because this discussion is getting on my nerves.
If you are going to do a full mod KPY, please do it soon so I can resume getting this map ranked.

That wasn't a real Mod I've did. Here is the full one:

[Basic]
Hard to result about 00:56:394 (82) , 02:47:414 (3) , 01:02:925 (93) and them at the 2nd Chours.. Actually I would say to keep them at 1/1 for this Diff. I was actually satisfied with them in Kantan (and I found Kantan fine enough for Beginners, if some people cannot deal with this Rhythm then the Mapper shouldn't be gave the fault) and I think for a Basic Diff, which means to learn the manual Basics these Circles seems to be too hard at this point.

[Kantan]
I guess I don't need it to mod it again? lul

[Futsuu]
I remember that it was really really nice. And it is. The only thing I dislike a bit is the long play phase sometimes. I think that some 1/1 breaks could be added but it's not a must. It's more for the comfort to say "Let's rest for a short time". Uh.. sounds dumb but you understand what's my point and I think you should try to add them - I have really no clue where you would like to put them in case so I don't suggest times here.

[Muzukashii]
02:40:067 (631) - Feels weird to play on k. You also have used d at the other chourses and you should keep it (of course not as D but as d)

Great Diff.

[Oni]
Nothing to say, excellent rhythm choice and placement of the Triplets. This Diff is definitely fine.

Took everything from Stefan.

@KPY I took what I could from your futsuu mod, lots of stuff got changed after Stefan's mod.

Checked over all difficulties and didn't find any problems. The mapper also made an easier difficulty to fix any issues with kantan being "too hard."
Bubbled and good luck~

@Makar : you are not expect to rebubble a map since another BAT has started to work on it.

Reset the icon to popped for there're some technical issues still unfinallized. The map cannot be ranked before all mods are done.

i've asked kpy to finish his work asap. Please do not rush to rank.

The issues KPY brought up were addressed as expected, so I didn't see a problem.
I hope you at least got an answer from kpy first before performing any action.

Makar wrote:

The issues KPY brought up were addressed as expected, so I didn't see a problem.

I guess KPY was not done yet..

The problem is that he popped the bubble when kpy's mod was a simple mod that got applied, not a bubble pop for issues that have to be fixed and were not. I'd like to know what these "technical issues" that need "finalization" are that haven't been already checked by a BAT (myself).

kpy's mod is 6 days old, if he still wanted to finish his mod, he would have done so instead of modding other maps. Furthermore he didn't even popped the map. There is no need to keep a mapset popped just because a modder is taking ages to finish a mod. This is counter-productive, especially since several BATs already approved the mapset.
I'm giving kpy 24h to finish his mod, otherwise I'll consider this bubble-pop as invalid and I'll rebubble the mapset myself.

Don't kud this post.

[Basic]

[Muzukashii]

[Oni]

what is done is done, we are going to do is to help mmzz to repair his bubble~

kanpakyin wrote:

Don't kud this post.

[Basic]

1. 00:20:680 (27) - I think you can change this note to don because don can fit the pitch there. Besides, it can make a godd transition from k k k to d so that newbie can adapt to it easily. Ok.
2. 00:49:251 (71,72,73) - I still doubt this 1.5 spacing. This diff is Basic. Although you are following the strong beat there, I think 1.5 spacing is too confusing to newbie. Anyway, let you decide it~ There isn''t much else to map too, and this is the best song resemblance I can get.
3. 01:22:721 (10) - Same as 00:20:680 -
4. 01:32:517 (23) - I would move this note to 01:32:313 - to follow the vocal. Also, the spacing looks better in this way. Ok.
5. 01:57:823 (62,63,64) - Same as 00:49:251 (71,72,73) -
6. 02:04:354 (72,73,74) - ^
7. Diff looks cool overall.

[Muzukashii]

1. 00:14:558 (39,40) - I would like to swap this pattern to kat don if I were you. In this way, kat can fit the drum and also the pitch of the music. But it is already placed to the drums?
2. 00:25:374 (81) - don here? To fit the drum sound and the pitch. Clearly the pitch at 00:25:170 - is higher than 00:25:374 - I do not map to pitch, it ruins the rhythm.
3. 00:31:904 (107) - ^ (I won't list this again.)
4. 01:01:496 (225,226,227) - I feel this 1/4 is quite redundant, it helps nothing and doesn't fit the music imo, it would be better if you can change it to simple 1/2 Ok
5. 01:14:558 (288,289,290) - ^ Ok
6. 01:23:129 (317,318) - Same as 00:14:558 (39,40) -
7. 01:31:088 (346,347,348) - Make a 1/6 (dddd) here? dddd in 1/6 is still acceptable in muzu imo. I'm not sure, I would like to leave the 1/6 to the hardest diff.
8. 02:13:537 (520) - kat here? No.
9. 02:32:517 (594) - Big kat sounds weird here because there is no strong beat. I would recommend a small don here. Made it a small kat.
10. 02:45:986 (654) - A big kat here to fit the pitch? I don't map to pitch.

[Oni]

1. 00:47:517 - If you are going to follow the drum sound, you should add a note here then. You might need to remove the finish on (53) - if you do this. No, I don't like replacing strong finishers with drum rolls. That is why the pattern is this way.
2. 00:25:374 (81) - don here? To fit the drum sound and the pitch. Clearly the pitch at 00:25:170 - is higher than 00:25:374 - (I won't list this again.) I don't map to pitch.
3. 01:31:292 (263) - Change this to kat in order to fit the drum there? It is already mapped accurately.
4. 02:20:068 (169) - kat? no.
5. 02:27:517 (9) - How about removing this note? There is no music on that point and hence it sounds weird. There is a triplet here. Listen at a slower pace.
6. 02:32:517 (34) - Big kat sounds weird here because there is no strong beat. I would recommend a small don here. Changed to small kat.

what is done is done, we are going to do is to help mmzz to repair his bubble~

Thanks for finishing the mod.

Bubble restore.

[General]
Quite a jump from futsuu to muzukashii.
02:45:986 - Consider ending the kiai here.

[Muzukashii]

1. A bit too hard due to extremely long 1/2+1/4+finish patterns in the map, making this an easier oni instead of a muzukashii. Should definitely split those patterns up a little bit.
2. 00:44:966 (163) - Consider removing this. It's not as important and splitting up longer 1/2 patterns is a good idea.
3. 01:02:109 (228) - ^, makes the finishers feel better too cause the 1/1 spacing brings more emphasis.
4. 01:04:149 (238) - Consider removing this. It's more appropriate for a muzu with this 1/1 break.
5. 01:07:415 (253) - Same, etc. I will not point these out anymore, but removing them is enough to make this easy enough to be a harder tier muzukashii instead of a low tier oni. Basically, remove all red tick dons on every starting measure of a kiai and then every 2nd one after that. (so, 02:33:129 (594) - as well, etc)
6. 01:31:088 (344,345,346) - Instead of ddd, consider d K. It fits the background crash quite nicely.
7. 01:34:353 - Add a don imo. There is active music here, both vocals and drums.
8. 02:28:027 - Because 02:28:843 (577) - is a finisher, I would consider removing 02:28:231 (574,575,576) - and adding a K to this timeline. It fits better in my opinion because it expresses the sudden crash and doesn't mask the 1/6 drumline. Stop and go feelings usually feel much better if they stop and go with the same note type (a finisher), if you ask me.
9. 02:33:741 (597,598,599) and 02:40:271 (630,631,632) - All these triples are misplaced. You should have the middle don mapped on 02:33:639 - and 02:40:169 - instead in my opinion, that's the drum in the music too so why not follow it.

[Futsuu]

1. 00:32:517 (73) - Why not a kat?
2. 00:33:333 (76) - ^
3. 00:39:047 (90) - ^, etc. Basically what I think you could do is to keep the kat structure normal, and then create variety with the dons around instead. It's a low bpm futsuu so even longer 1/2 patterns are acceptible imo, especially since you have both kantan and basic haha.
4. 01:19:456 (201) + 01:25:986 (219) - Since you're not mapping the whole rhythm, I would suggest to have 01:19:251 - mapped as well (and the other spot). Because of the melody, rhythmically that spot should be heavier than this one you have atm.
   Basically, you move this note to 01:19:251 and then you can map a d k at 01:19:660 or something.
5. 2nd verse - it's kinda the same as the first one, I think you can probably use some more notes on occasion to make slightly longer patterns just to close the gap towards muzu haha. Up to you really, it works as it is currently, just some feedback.

[Kantan]
02:30:476 (9) - Move this to 02:30:680 - in my opinion. It creates a more accurate rhythm if you ask me.

[Basic]
01:04:966 (95) - I think moving this to 01:04:762 - would rhythmically sound better and it would be easier to read. Goes for all notes like this. You don't specifically follow anything (except for maybe trying to follow the vocals cause they are usually easy?), so I believe it could be a good move.

That's all. Awesome mapset, just some tweaking in muzu required imo.
Also, imo, that Kantan is perfectly okay as lowest diff but whatever. Having another diff like this can't hurt I guess (I don't really like overly simplifying everything though :p).

Updated, changed pretty much everything in the Muzu. Thanks.

https://twitter.com/CytusJP/status/357707452977917953

I guess it could be considered..

Link providen by Niva

Gabe wrote:

https://twitter.com/CytusJP/status/357707452977917953

I guess it could be considered..

Link providen by Niva

Well shit.

tl;dr translation: Do not use Cytus songs in other rhythm games.

Although, there are a lot of Cytus songs on other official games before Cytus. Whatever. (xi, cranky, etc)

So, what is gonna happen now? o.o

Well, if anything happens, break that heart I guess.

Is MMzz aware of that?

gratz~

yay

hueee, well ok.

Gratz MMzz ~ :3

woah this map didn't take long to get ranked. Haha!

Congrats for the Rank! Cute Mapset :3

gratz!