fufe wrote:

Things that would NEVER be acceptable going through normal modding.

no no no no. That is a whole new rant thread entirely. Maybe some of Part Foul wouldn't go through nazi-mod standards, but something such as a pattern imperfection should not stop a map from being ranked.

edit: @Gabi, that's where good reputation comes in hand. We all have friends, and friends do friends favors (as Cheesewarlock said.)

I also agree with Cheese's point (actually, all of them probably) that things like Party Foul should not happen often. But the thing is, it doesn't happen often. So cut us some slack, give us some freedom, and move on from party foul. I assure you that complaining about the system does not encourage BATs me, at least, to mod your maps.

This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.

I love how people keep putting "this damn debate" up again, yet seem to keep forgetting to stay on-topic.

Gabi wrote:

how do the non famous mappers with maps that happen to be absolutley fine, get their maps looked at by bats with no/very low priority?

This is a bit off-topic, but I'll answer you anyway.

Get non-BAT modders. Please include the possibility (and even the worth) of non-BAT modders out there that have been working so hard to improve maps that they're not even supposed to be concerned about. If you can't get their trust and approval, how more else can you get a BAT's?

The priority system does not increase the chances of getting your map ranked, but it sure makes us BATs conscious about them.

fufe wrote:

its sad to see this happen.
Mapper 1: Ive 8 stars in less than a week, im ready for rankage! =D (gets ranked)

Mapper 2: Ive got 35 stars over the course of a month, 25 more to go to get top priority D; (unseen)
-mapper 2 may be bad mapper.. but mapper2 may also be pressured to recieve tons of overmodding just for the sake of having to pump that priority number.

... fufe? I thought this thread is about the minimum priority to rank? Why are you discussing about ranking?

Anyway, I don't see anything to be saddened about those two situations.

Mapper one got his map ranked quickly, probably because he "got lucky" to get BATs to check his map. The BATs could've found no errors and decided to rank it.

Mapper two got his map modded very heavily. His map was prone to suggestions that increased the quality of his map even beyond his capabilities.

In the end, who gets the better deal? I'd say mapper two did. His map was chosen to receive improvements; the other one was probably just ranked for the hell of it. Those who followed the path of mapper two's had the better chance of having...

THE EPIC MAP EVER.

See? Mappers nowadays don't care how good their maps are. They just want them ranked, that's why. In the long run, the rating spread will tell you how good the maps really are. Players today can easily see a half-baked map from a fully-honed one.

vytalibus wrote:

The priority system does not increase the chances of getting your map ranked, but it sure makes us BATs conscious about them.

I looked at this discussion in a different way:

The priority system should increase the chances of a higher-priority map getting looked at by a BAT.

To me it's not about ranking, though that is the ultimate goal.

(My reasoning for wanting to increase the star limit is to encourage BAT's to look at higher-priority maps.)

To answer vyt, substitute 'rank' with 'get BAT attn' Ive been interchanging the two on basis of assuming the map is of quality(which i know it wont always be, just do so for the purpose of discussion).Maybe I forgot to put that in or deleted it along the way.

mapper one's 'luck' was previously described as friendly relations with BATs so i bet it could happen but im not sure i buy that outright.

as for mapper 2's heavy modding. it may just be me, but i dont really trust some of the modders out there. Sure the answer is just ignore them but the older a map get the more paranoid ive gotten that something is really wrong even though no 'professional' has been able to check it. Lets look back at Rolled's first post. If you have a perfect map then you shouldnt have to go through the bs of 30kd or 16people+2bats. Now, if you werent a BAT, you may have no choice.

In the end, the point was to try to reduce the instarank trend or make instaranks a bit harder so sp might hold more..priority... All this stuff was supposed to be an example of how priority can screw us .

After all this, I'm thinking sp requirement modification probably wont do much. I dont think the current requirement does anything. someone else can say something if they think it will.

Going to BAT rankings +incentive seemed to be one of the only supported solution, nobody mentioned that it might make people attack the lower ranked bats more directly?

For me personally, I'm not biased towards the status of the mapper, but more biased towards their mapping history. There are BATs whose maps I don't really like modding, just as there are normal players whose maps I don't really like modding, simply because they tend to be a bit boring. So if I get a bad impression of anyone's mapping quality, I tend to be not so enthusiastic about modding their map.

I think this is true for anyone who mods, and not just BATs: if a mapper has a history of lame maps, then people will try to avoid the mapper, which reduces the attention he gets for it. But if he has a history of extremely cool maps, then people will be tripping over themselves to mod the maps, which in turn results in a faster rank. For example, this happened with darri.

When modding a "normal" map, it's usually just *check timing* *run/play through the map* *note mistakes* *post mistakes* *star* *rinse and repeat (yawn)*

When modding a "cool" map, it was more like *check timing* *play thro- WOW THAT WAS AWESOME* *post awesomeness* *bubble/rank* *DO YOU HAVE ANY MORE!?/HEY MOD THIS GET IT RANKED IT'S AWESOME*

Personally, song choice accounts for over 50% of a map's awesomeness. If you don't choose a good song to map, imho no amount of exciting mapping can help boost the song's awesomeness. The song needs to be vibrant enough to allow for a (large) variety of rhythmic patterns (eg. look at Cross Time or Festival of the Ghosts) and compare it with a not so interesting song like Way of Difference.

Another thing is that the rhythmic variation of the song itself leads to the creation of creative patterns. You can't force creative patterns into songs that don't have enough variation - in this case it just turns into bad spacing/mapping.

I think I can write a thesis on the art of making beatmaps -.-

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@Echo: You're the MAN~

I think a lot of these problems come from newbies being tricked into believing the system is unbiased, when it's obvious to anyone who spends a week or two here that it's a social system. Seeing the bubbles and star system when I first joined, I was convinced that the system was unbiased, with attention based solely on the map. After all, the main tenet of EBA was, in my mind, trying out new styles of music you weren't used to. "And hey, if anime-based maps are all the rage, surely the community will like my video game maps, too?" I imagine newcomers who see the Kudosu system think the same thing: "If I get enough Kudosu, people will mod my map, no matter how unpopular of a song I choose or how unknown I am".

In retrospect, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense; people don't download the map and then decide to play it - they usually look at the artist, title, and mapper to decide these things. I was misled into making map(s) that weren't very popular subjects with the very J-Pop oriented community, and I still suffer from these setbacks.

I believe there should be some sort of helpful guide to the more subjective points of mapping; sure, it feels really unfair that J-Pop and BAT-made maps get to the top of the list, but that's the way life works. We should warn newcomers that maybe mapping Egg Fleet isn't the best idea to start with - gain some reputation before you try maps that could potentially be obscure and unpopular. It would've helped me a lot.

My main point, in difference to Echo, is that song choice plays a much larger role on map visibility instead of map quality. You need to sell your map, not just put it up there and expect a mod.

@K2J: that's what the song preview is for

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That has no bearing on the map, though, just the MP3/OGG. You still cannot tell the quality of a map without downloading it.

This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.

I disagree.
If a BAT thinks the map is rankable, why not rank it.
Introducing a limit like this will mean fewer ranked maps for people to play because they will get ranked more slowly. I think

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This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.

^ Pro. ^

EDIT:
Still pro.

I tripled my post length via EDIT you might wanna double check to make sure you still agree lol

strager wrote:

Agent Spin Here wrote:

I disagree.
If a BAT thinks the map is rankable, why not rank it.
Introducing a limit like this will mean fewer ranked maps for people to play because they will get ranked more slowly. I think

Do you want more ranked maps or more quality maps?

Ranked maps are quality maps. That's generally the rule, a map doesn't get ranked if it isn't good.

This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.

since this has gone abit off topic then, id just like to reply to my question. also in all my posts please don't take any offense, im just trying to understand everything right, so i can then try to explain to all the other frustrated mappers.

Rolled wrote:

edit: @Gabi, that's where good reputation comes in hand. We all have friends, and friends do friends favors (as Cheesewarlock said.)

i see... this is, why it bumps with the system already tho.

Vytalibus wrote:

This is a bit off-topic, but I'll answer you anyway.

Get non-BAT modders. Please include the possibility (and even the worth) of non-BAT modders out there that have been working so hard to improve maps that they're not even supposed to be concerned about. If you can't get their trust and approval, how more else can you get a BAT's?

The priority system does not increase the chances of getting your map ranked, but it sure makes us BATs conscious about them

This has been in pending for 9 months, 23+ sp and is a pretty good map, viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7122

this has been in pending for 11 hours and is already ranked viewtopic.php?f=14&t=14169
it had 9 sp+ before 2 bats looked at it right away

am i missing something here? 9 months yet no BAT's, allthough 11 hours and 2 BAT's +rank.

Would anyone agree that this is a little unfair or?
maybe make the system so you have to wait a couple of days before you can have your map ranked? idk suggestions.

awp wrote:

Agent Spin Here wrote:

Ranked maps are quality maps. That's generally the rule, a map doesn't get ranked if it isn't good.

No, that is not entirely true. It's possible for a bad map to meet all playability standards and still be boring to play.

I guess, but if a map is bad to begin with and can be ranked there isn't a whole lot that can be done other than remapping the entire thing.

strager wrote:

Agent Spin Here wrote:

I disagree.
If a BAT thinks the map is rankable, why not rank it.
Introducing a limit like this will mean fewer ranked maps for people to play because they will get ranked more slowly. I think

Do you want more ranked maps or more quality maps?

orz

Gabi wrote:

maybe make the system so you have to wait a couple of days before you can have your map ranked? idk suggestions.

No.

A map doesn't improve by waiting a few days in the Pending forum.

This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.

I agree with some points - new mappers certainly find it harder to get people's attention.

BUT

With people like SFG who are constantly modding maps, if you make an awesome map, the news will spread. Once someone mods your first map and finds the awesomeness, people will be, like I said before, tripping over themselves to mod your maps. People will be waiting eagerly in pending for your maps to be uploaded.

But if I mod your first map and find nothing but your average "agrees with the ranking criteria" map, next time I have a choice between your map and a map from someone who has a history of awesome maps, which map do you think I'll choose to mod?

My suggestion is: learn how to map, and your maps will be looked at. I hate how I can go through all the bubbled maps and not find a single awesome map, but am still forced to rank them because there's nothing "wrong" with the maps.

My maps don't get looked over as much as I like either. But out of all my ranked maps, I would personally say only weeeek is an "awesome" map. That's 1 awesome map out of 19. Do you see me complaining? No. Instead, I recognise my shortcomings and strive to make myself a better mapper, which in turn makes people want to mod my maps rather than some policy enforcing people to mod my maps.

Mapping awesome maps is not easy. Just like any other form of art, if you're like me and not naturally talented, you'll need to study awesome maps and figure out what makes them awesome and imitate. If you can't be bothered learning how to map awesome maps, and just want to get whatever average map you upload ranked, don't complain if no one's looking at your map.

We all have limited time for modding. Say to yourself: would I prefer to use that time to help get an awesome map ranked or to look over some average map? If a potentially awesome map is in the queue, I would mod that. Then if such a map doesn't exist, I would much rather look over some new maps to try to find new awesome mappers than to look over a map known to be only average.

Am I biased? Totally.

I'm starting to agree with y'all more and more after all of this elaboration.

I'm usually biased when modding, so I know what the BATs and other modders go through.

Sorry if I've made an ass out of myself in irc ^^;

Maybe I'm just more commercially-minded than artistically-minded, but I believe no matter how good a map you make, at the end of the day, the most-played maps are ones that have songs people like, not songs that necessarily make good maps or even those that are good maps. SFG or someone else I trust could recommend an "awesome" beatmap based off of a song I don't like, and I'd probably not play it.

This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.

Gabi wrote:

Vytalibus wrote:

This is a bit off-topic, but I'll answer you anyway.

Get non-BAT modders. Please include the possibility (and even the worth) of non-BAT modders out there that have been working so hard to improve maps that they're not even supposed to be concerned about. If you can't get their trust and approval, how more else can you get a BAT's?

The priority system does not increase the chances of getting your map ranked, but it sure makes us BATs conscious about them

This has been in pending for 9 months, 23+ sp and is a pretty good map, viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7122

this has been in pending for 11 hours and is already ranked viewtopic.php?f=14&t=14169
it had 9 sp+ before 2 bats looked at it right away

am i missing something here? 9 months yet no BAT's, allthough 11 hours and 2 BAT's +rank.

Would anyone agree that this is a little unfair or?
maybe make the system so you have to wait a couple of days before you can have your map ranked? idk suggestions.

*stretches his typing fingers and starts to use his newly-acquired lawyer knowledge* Phoenix Wright FTW

I do not want specific cases to see points, Gabi. They're usually subjective, and prone to probability. Notice that I've been talking in a very generalized point of view all the time.

Speaking of subjectivity, modding maps has always been like that. I always try to be impartial in terms of accepting mod requests (when I say to someone that I'm not accepting requests, I almost always stick to that), but no matter how hard I try, I am always subjected to my physical and physiological capabilities. I think I speak the same for all modders, even those like Larto and SFG who constantly mod. We always tend to select the maps that are easily accessible and moddable.

Does that make us unfair? Well, that's a question I'll leave to you.

The kudosu system and the priority system have been created to influence more objectivity in map-to-mod selection. You might say that the situation today is still a bit biased, but it's much worse without them. I still remember the time when it took me a helluva lot just to get a modder, let alone a BAT. Now, the community has grown exponentially in size up to the point that the old style of modding would not just fit in anymore.

Now, about that feature you just suggested, I'm a bit baffled by what it can really do. I mean, it might be able to avoid snipe-ranks, but it also deprives mappers of the possibilities of getting a map ranked because it was perfected via its first upload. Personally, I think it'll discourage me from making good maps; what's the use of uploading a fresh yet good map if it cannot be ranked for a couple of days, weeks perhaps?

This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.

fufe wrote:

Yet, im still also baffled at what the current 8 sp requirement is supposed to do. (

It's to allow the community to mod/change the map before the BATs look at it for potential ranking

vytalibus wrote:

Gabi wrote:

Vytalibus wrote:

This is a bit off-topic, but I'll answer you anyway.

Get non-BAT modders. Please include the possibility (and even the worth) of non-BAT modders out there that have been working so hard to improve maps that they're not even supposed to be concerned about. If you can't get their trust and approval, how more else can you get a BAT's?

The priority system does not increase the chances of getting your map ranked, but it sure makes us BATs conscious about them

This has been in pending for 9 months, 23+ sp and is a pretty good map, viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7122

this has been in pending for 11 hours and is already ranked viewtopic.php?f=14&t=14169
it had 9 sp+ before 2 bats looked at it right away

am i missing something here? 9 months yet no BAT's, allthough 11 hours and 2 BAT's +rank.

Would anyone agree that this is a little unfair or?
maybe make the system so you have to wait a couple of days before you can have your map ranked? idk suggestions.

*stretches his typing fingers and starts to use his newly-acquired lawyer knowledge* Phoenix Wright FTW

I do not want specific cases to see points, Gabi. They're usually subjective, and prone to probability. Notice that I've been talking in a very generalized point of view all the time.

Speaking of subjectivity, modding maps has always been like that. I always try to be impartial in terms of accepting mod requests (when I say to someone that I'm not accepting requests, I almost always stick to that), but no matter how hard I try, I am always subjected to my physical and physiological capabilities. I think I speak the same for all modders, even those like Larto and SFG who constantly mod. We always tend to select the maps that are easily accessible and moddable.

Does that make us unfair? Well, that's a question I'll leave to you.

The kudosu system and the priority system have been created to influence more objectivity in map-to-mod selection. You might say that the situation today is still a bit biased, but it's much worse without them. I still remember the time when it took me a helluva lot just to get a modder, let alone a BAT. Now, the community has grown exponentially in size up to the point that the old style of modding would not just fit in anymore.

Now, about that feature you just suggested, I'm a bit baffled by what it can really do. I mean, it might be able to avoid snipe-ranks, but it also deprives mappers of the possibilities of getting a map ranked because it was perfected via its first upload. Personally, I think it'll discourage me from making good maps; what's the use of uploading a fresh yet good map if it cannot be ranked for a couple of days, weeks perhaps?

The reason i pointed out this specific case was because this is not a rare one. this is happening alot and this is causing drama between all the channels in osu. but no one actually knows much of this since everytime someone speaks up they get flamed and hated by everyone. pretty much like i will probably get.

i agree with you that it deprives mappers, thats why i can't imagen how someone would feel to have their map ranked after 1 year, while it only needs minor fixes. also almost every single mapper has to wait minimum 1 week for their maps to get ranked, so why not just make it a rule? well except BAT's ofcourse they get that "mod4mod" shit constantly so they dont have to worry about anything. the bats that say that they do mod4mod also seem to ignore normal players when they ask them.

fufe wrote:

now ur thinkin like an unpopular/unknown mapper does -rite now-.. seeeeeeeee that sucks. =(

QFT in that case

when are some of you people gonna stop seeing this from 1 side only.

vyta this wasn't pointed directly to you, however as you speak in a generalized way, i doubt you can speak for all BAT's. there was one question i'd like you to answer, like i said in my post, dont you think its unfair?? 9 months vs 11 hours.
why don't you take the question up in maybe a mod irc lounge and ask them aswell if they think thats fair or not thats all i want to know before i stop posting here. even if it is "prone to probability" it seems very high

sorry for my grammar, my english isn't flawless like yours

First of all, I'd like to assure everyone that I am not against your opinions. I am just making sure that every piece of information comes across this thread very clearly and with good point of view.

Second, I'd also like to remind you that I am not just talking as a BAT. I am a mapper, a modder and a player; hence, I speak with experience from those as well. I do not wish that people think I'm trying to protect my position.

fufe wrote:

"Personally, I think it'll discourage me from making good maps; what's the use of uploading a fresh yet good map if it cannot be ranked for a couple of days, weeks perhaps?"

now ur thinkin like an unpopular/unknown mapper does -rite now-.. seeeeeeeee that sucks. =(

I'm talking about the feature Gabi suggested: the "maps shouldn't be ranked for a couple of days after its first upload" thing. It's quite different from what's happening, because if this feature gets implemented, there is instead a huge block of wall absolutely preventing a mapper from doing that. What's happening today is just a subjective discouragement that can easily be removed from one's mindset.

If you do not understand what I mean, then I am sorry. I'll think of a more simplified version once I post again.

Gabi wrote:

vyta this wasn't pointed directly to you, however as you speak in a generalized way, i doubt you can speak for all BAT's. there was one question i'd like you to answer, like i said in my post, dont you think its unfair?? 9 months vs 11 hours.
why don't you take the question up in maybe a mod irc lounge and ask them aswell if they think thats fair or not thats all i want to know before i stop posting here. even if it is "prone to probability" it seems very high

In my opinion? Yes, it is unfair. Maps are not supposed to wait for too long... though I wonder why that particular map took 9 months. I haven't seen that map being advertised for modding, at least in my point of view.

Gabi wrote:

sorry for my grammar, my english isn't flawless like yours

Meh, it's only my writing English. My speaking English sucks.

If you are going to make a statement/accusation, back it up with facts and citations.

Two things I've read in the last ten minutes that were wrong were the "No BAT posts in this 9-month-pending map" and BATs ignoring "regular players" for mod4mods.

Excluding SFG and Alace, who weren't BATs at the time, there had been numerous (as in more than, say, four) BAT posts. Even if James isn't recognized as a BAT any more, you should not devalue his opinion either. Regardless, there's five pages of comments. Assuming that half of these posts are generic "thumbs up" posts, that still leaves a considerable amount of mod posts, implying that there was a lot to fix in this map. And you wonder why it took longer to rank? It was also graved on request at one point, and speaking from experience I find it disheartening to put time into something that is only going to get discarded anyway. While that may not be the case with this map (impossible to say) I felt like mentioning it.

As for the whole BATs never mod4mod with non-BATs, there's no evidence provided to show BATs turning down regular players. And all it would take is one example of the contrary to void this accusation. I'm pretty sure I've done this mod4mod on numerous occasions myself, and the only one I recall doing with another BAT was Zerostarry.

I wouldn't recommend anyone demonizing those who they "rely" on (it feels dissatisfying to explain it that way, but I'm at a loss for other words), and baseless accusations aren't going to make things better. Nobody should be complaining about a map that is ranked quickly unless it's a really bad map. I can understand people viewing this as "unfair" and a violation of the priority system, but most people mod to their own whims. It would be unfair to form a grudge against someone for their modding habits and patterns when you consider the fact that it's voluntary. The stricter the guidelines, the less desirable the "job" is.

For novice beatmappers, your initial beatmaps should be considered a learning process. It'll take longer, you'll (hopefully) learn from your mistakes, and avoid repeating the same mistakes in future submissions, which should become subject to less scrutiny and criticism as time goes on. It's easier (and more enjoyable) to mod a map with only a couple errors than one with a greater amount to watch out for. I'd be willing to bet most people will only remember modding a mapper's most recent efforts and not maintain a history of problems. So even if the first map is a disaster, if you apply what you've learned to create a considerably better second map and get the word out on that one, you'll be building a better future.

tldr
Support your claims; befriend those you need rather than demonizing them (they won't have a pity-invoked change of heart) learn from your mistakes, and don't complain if others make less mistakes than you do.



Tune in next month when my core values and opinions on this subject matter change completely.