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Increase minimum priority to rank [resolved]
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I agree. Bubbles shouldn't be given to maps the community hasn't looked at much. (Yes, the mapper could kd-star spam, but if they have the kd they probably have a reason to push their map so much.)
I'm not sure if the current 8 star limit is for bubbling or ranking, but I think it'd be best to have a much higher limit for bubbling. 20 or 25 seems reasonable. A top N may work too (currently a +20 priority map has 72 maps ahead of it); top 50 seems pretty reasonable (if the top 50 includes current bubbles), so if the standard shifts so does the bubbling limit.
I'm not sure if the current 8 star limit is for bubbling or ranking, but I think it'd be best to have a much higher limit for bubbling. 20 or 25 seems reasonable. A top N may work too (currently a +20 priority map has 72 maps ahead of it); top 50 seems pretty reasonable (if the top 50 includes current bubbles), so if the standard shifts so does the bubbling limit.
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I wonder if what Rolled said is the general opinion of BAT's or just Rolled's own opinion. To me it looks as if reputation has to do a lot with getting your ranked map, which I disagree with.
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A good reputation is not required for your map to be ranked, but it definitely helps. Whether you are known to help a lot of users with their ranked maps, known to have made good maps in the past, or just a generally friendly person on IRC, your maps are more likely to get looked at by other people. No kudosu system that could ever be put in place will change that, it's just the society we live in.
I have a choice to mod one map. One of them is a person I've known through osu for years, has 10+ maps that I enjoy playing, and is a song I like. I have never seen the other person's name before, other than the daily "can you look at my beatmap" PM I see in my inbox. It's pretty apparent who's map I would look at first.
Maybe my logic is flawed here, but how many of you can say that you wouldn't do the same thing in the above example?
Also keep in mind that I am not saying I only mod my friends' maps. I will admit that I don't always go by the new rules set in place by the priority system, however. The two ways that I mod are either a mod exchange (regardless of their map's priority), or taking the first x requests given to me in IRC (again, regardless of priority). Not very often to I mod strictly by priority, though I do go on bubble popping/ranking rampages occasionally.
edit:
I have a choice to mod one map. One of them is a person I've known through osu for years, has 10+ maps that I enjoy playing, and is a song I like. I have never seen the other person's name before, other than the daily "can you look at my beatmap" PM I see in my inbox. It's pretty apparent who's map I would look at first.
Maybe my logic is flawed here, but how many of you can say that you wouldn't do the same thing in the above example?
Also keep in mind that I am not saying I only mod my friends' maps. I will admit that I don't always go by the new rules set in place by the priority system, however. The two ways that I mod are either a mod exchange (regardless of their map's priority), or taking the first x requests given to me in IRC (again, regardless of priority). Not very often to I mod strictly by priority, though I do go on bubble popping/ranking rampages occasionally.
edit:
Absolutely brilliant idea.LuigiHann wrote:
Maybe bring back the BAT ranking leaderboard, and have higher-priority maps be worth the most points.
I'm sure you know what could happen if a BAT gets greedy.LuigiHann wrote:
I'm fairly neutral on this. If too many restrictions are placed on BATs, then the only result will be that fewer people want to be BATs. I could see the minimum being raised to like 10 or 12, but not much higher. I think what we really need now isn't more restrictions on ranking low-SP maps, but rather, more incentives to mod high-SP maps. Maybe bring back the BAT ranking leaderboard, and have higher-priority maps be worth the most points.
IMO maps should be agreed upon by the community not a few BAT's. BAT's have the final word, of course, but community support is almost required for your average mapper (such as myself) and stars show community support.
EDIT:
I don't disagree with that. In fact I do agree with you there; modding maps of mappers you are familiar with gives a greater chance of you not "wasting your time."Rolled wrote:
A good reputation is not required for your map to be ranked, but it definitely helps. Whether you are known to help a lot of users with their ranked maps, known to have made good maps in the past, or just a generally friendly person on IRC, your maps are more likely to get looked at by other people. No kudosu system that could ever be put in place will change that, it's just the society we live in.
I have a choice to mod one map. One of them is a person I've known through osu for years, has 10+ maps that I enjoy playing, and is a song I like. I have never seen the other person's name before, other than the daily "can you look at my beatmap" PM I see in my inbox. It's pretty apparently who's map I would look at first.
Maybe my logic is flawed here, but how many of you can say that you wouldn't do the same thing in the above example?
However, the main issue seems to be that the priority system is ignored. Why would it exist, then?
I agree on increasing the minimum since bats work to slow to mod and rank every map above 7. but 20 is a bit high I think 12 is reasonable.
Mappers shouldn't have to befriend BATs in order to get their maps checked out. IMO BATs should go through the Pending/WIP queues in order of priority. Isn't this why there's a priority system in the first place?
I'm getting really sick of looking at some maps, getting ninja'd by BATs, and getting ranked without anyone else in the community looking at it.
EDIT: Damn, strager beat me to it again :<
I'm getting really sick of looking at some maps, getting ninja'd by BATs, and getting ranked without anyone else in the community looking at it.
EDIT: Damn, strager beat me to it again :<
Topic Starter
edit- wow like 5 posts before i could push post...
Main point- I want star priority to have some type of power.
tldr and bs
The reason i chose 20 was because of the massive number of 20+s already up. thats why i think something that operated off the top priority might be nice.
I agree that good maps should be ranked. But i also think there are some maps that are being completely overlooked. The issue is the actual maps that BATs tend to look at. It sucks to have top 10priority maps while 15 other maps are ranked with no kd. Bubbles are supposidly deemed Perfect by one BAT, yet we usually have a page of bubbles. They "should" be ranked if theyr perfect, but theres no second bat to look at them. This is one reason tag rank annoys people imo.
As for having to build a relationship with BATs, i one of the biggest points of the kudos system was so that this wouldnt haave to happen. I thought we were discouraging favoritism. this completely goes against the whole system. why earn kudos to pump my priority if it means NOTHING.
i dont see the point of 8star kd, it was to reduce instarank? bats generally have some trickle of kd as not everythign tehy look at will be perfect (right?) and they definately dont need to stock kd to pump maps for high priority so its EASILY possible for the first 2 bats to rank something.
Main point- I want star priority to have some type of power.
Main point- I want star priority to have some type of power.
tldr and bs
The reason i chose 20 was because of the massive number of 20+s already up. thats why i think something that operated off the top priority might be nice.
I agree that good maps should be ranked. But i also think there are some maps that are being completely overlooked. The issue is the actual maps that BATs tend to look at. It sucks to have top 10priority maps while 15 other maps are ranked with no kd. Bubbles are supposidly deemed Perfect by one BAT, yet we usually have a page of bubbles. They "should" be ranked if theyr perfect, but theres no second bat to look at them. This is one reason tag rank annoys people imo.
As for having to build a relationship with BATs, i one of the biggest points of the kudos system was so that this wouldnt haave to happen. I thought we were discouraging favoritism. this completely goes against the whole system. why earn kudos to pump my priority if it means NOTHING.
i dont see the point of 8star kd, it was to reduce instarank? bats generally have some trickle of kd as not everythign tehy look at will be perfect (right?) and they definately dont need to stock kd to pump maps for high priority so its EASILY possible for the first 2 bats to rank something.
Main point- I want star priority to have some type of power.
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honestly, the first thing i thought when the kudosu system was set, was that BAT's would ONLY look at the top prior in the pending list and evenrually help out people who are having offset problems or bpm problems, or other questions.
I never said that the way I handle modding beatmaps is the way things are currently being done. However, it has been the way I've handled modding beatmaps since 2007. It was only in the past months that it has become a problem.
My words about befriending BATs have gotten twisted a lot in this thread, and in IRC as well. When I say befriend, I don't mean you have to go over to their house and have a slumber party. All I am saying is, treat them as more than a person you need to get your beatmap ranked. If you show them respect, the respect will be mutual. At least for me, that is. Sending them a private message mod request as soon as you see them log on osu is not showing respect.
The priority system has worked wonders since it's been implemented, and overall it's a success. Let's be honest. This thread was created because of this being ranked so fast.
I had more to say but I forget. Got side-tracked zzz.
My words about befriending BATs have gotten twisted a lot in this thread, and in IRC as well. When I say befriend, I don't mean you have to go over to their house and have a slumber party. All I am saying is, treat them as more than a person you need to get your beatmap ranked. If you show them respect, the respect will be mutual. At least for me, that is. Sending them a private message mod request as soon as you see them log on osu is not showing respect.
The priority system has worked wonders since it's been implemented, and overall it's a success. Let's be honest. This thread was created because of this being ranked so fast.
I had more to say but I forget. Got side-tracked zzz.
Rolled, I like the way that you do your "you mod my map, I mod your's" thing, but that's not what people are upset about.
The problem is that BATs seem to not be looking at maps in a logical way; Even ones with high priority. Some people have 20/30+ priority and maybe only one BAT has looked at it. Then we see certain maps get ranked quickly (foulcoon's, for example), with very low priority. It seems like there's some favoritism going on.
EDIT: Yeah, maps have problems, but how do people expect to get their map looked at if BATs won't do it? Like I said, the priority system feels broke to me.
The problem is that BATs seem to not be looking at maps in a logical way; Even ones with high priority. Some people have 20/30+ priority and maybe only one BAT has looked at it. Then we see certain maps get ranked quickly (foulcoon's, for example), with very low priority. It seems like there's some favoritism going on.
EDIT: Yeah, maps have problems, but how do people expect to get their map looked at if BATs won't do it? Like I said, the priority system feels broke to me.
I disagree. Why? Because the kd system doesn't work anyways.
I think this topic is geared more toward the priority system than the kudosu system.Real1 wrote:
I disagree. Why? Because the kd system doesn't work anyways.
fufe only mentions kd to point out kd stars.
I think Real1 is a lurker and should stop posting in these threads.
When you say that BATs are still "sniping" maps, you need to first ask yourself: are those maps being ranked because they CAN be ranked without any changes? Having 20 priority doesn't mean the map is flawless - it just means people like that map/song. It may still require a lot more effort than what you consider maps that are being sniped.
I'm guessing in the case you mentioned (foulcoon's map) there were almost no mod posts? Because they weren't needed to get it ranked.
I'm not saying that sniping isn't happening, but unless it is well defined then you can't really accuse BATs of ignoring the priority system. Maybe we need a thread for (constructively) reporting BATs that are ignoring priority. Not for crying at us.
When you say that BATs are still "sniping" maps, you need to first ask yourself: are those maps being ranked because they CAN be ranked without any changes? Having 20 priority doesn't mean the map is flawless - it just means people like that map/song. It may still require a lot more effort than what you consider maps that are being sniped.
I'm guessing in the case you mentioned (foulcoon's map) there were almost no mod posts? Because they weren't needed to get it ranked.
I'm not saying that sniping isn't happening, but unless it is well defined then you can't really accuse BATs of ignoring the priority system. Maybe we need a thread for (constructively) reporting BATs that are ignoring priority. Not for crying at us.
Topic Starter
Ill say again i can see why Bat map instarank canhappen but if this stuff happens and is justified when the map is of perfect quality then we should not have so many bubbles. Kinda off topic but kinda related i guess. Even if you recieve a bubble there is still no type of assurance whatsoever that the bubble map will be looked at, even if it is deemed perfect quality by one bat. And again, priority means nothing.
Ive gone around checking out who is looking at what and comparing the "priority" involved and its just sad and a spit in the face to the system.
its sad to see this happen.
Mapper 1: Ive 8 stars in less than a week, im ready for rankage! =D (gets ranked)
Mapper 2: Ive got 35 stars over the course of a month, 25 more to go to get top priority D; (unseen)
-mapper 2 may be bad mapper.. but mapper2 may also be pressured to recieve tons of overmodding just for the sake of having to pump that priority number.
Ive gone around checking out who is looking at what and comparing the "priority" involved and its just sad and a spit in the face to the system.
its sad to see this happen.
Mapper 1: Ive 8 stars in less than a week, im ready for rankage! =D (gets ranked)
Mapper 2: Ive got 35 stars over the course of a month, 25 more to go to get top priority D; (unseen)
-mapper 2 may be bad mapper.. but mapper2 may also be pressured to recieve tons of overmodding just for the sake of having to pump that priority number.
Sorry, Pep. >.<peppy wrote:
I think Real1 is a lurker and should stop posting in these threads.
I know 20 SP doesn't mean the map is flawless, but at 20, 30, 40 SP, a BAT should at least consider looking at it. But it seems like they don't. (Not saying all BATs are like this.)
I know... There was a map that was frequently bumped, with 20+ SP, 6 months old that had no BAT attention. It's like we have to beg BATs to look at them no matter how high the SP is and the age of the map. Which sucks because, they (the BATs) must hate getting requests all the time.
I see your point peppy... And I'm not here to argue. I merely stated how things seem to me.
I think I have talked enough about this by now, and I will stop. I hate drama... So it kinda sucks when I am the one creating it, eh?
On Topic.
After reading peppy post... And thinking twice...
Yes, a higher requirement may be good... But make it no higher than 10 IMO.
imho people need to learn how to map
song choice
mapping quality
sound effects
visual effects
new, inventive patterns
mapping is an art, just like drawing, music, etc.
if you don't pick the right song, don't map imaginatively, don't add interesting effects to give your map that extra oomph, your map will suck, and no one will want to look at it, no matter how many stars you have
there is no rule saying all uploaded maps will be ranked, and personally i don't think half the ranked maps should have been ranked in the first place
song choice
mapping quality
sound effects
visual effects
new, inventive patterns
mapping is an art, just like drawing, music, etc.
if you don't pick the right song, don't map imaginatively, don't add interesting effects to give your map that extra oomph, your map will suck, and no one will want to look at it, no matter how many stars you have
there is no rule saying all uploaded maps will be ranked, and personally i don't think half the ranked maps should have been ranked in the first place
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You're saying there are too many maps for players to play?Ryuukun wrote:
But making the guidlines too harsh will result in too many players with too less mappers.
I don't think these are ranking criteria because they are subjective.Echo wrote:
imho people need to learn how to map
song choice
mapping quality
sound effects
visual effects
new, inventive patterns
mapping is an art, just like drawing, music, etc.
if you don't pick the right song, don't map imaginatively, don't add interesting effects to give your map that extra oomph, your map will suck, and no one will want to look at it, no matter how many stars you have
Also, any map has the destination of the graveyard, approval, or ranking. The pending and help forums are not where maps are supposed to stay.
No i said that too harsh guidline will result in less people start to make maps.
and this could be the overkill for a young game like osu which is growing.
I see it in Stepmania.
Sometimes you play around 200 songs for 1 year.
I doubt it will ever come to this in osu but doesn't osu want players to contribute?
and this could be the overkill for a young game like osu which is growing.
I see it in Stepmania.
Sometimes you play around 200 songs for 1 year.
I doubt it will ever come to this in osu but doesn't osu want players to contribute?
Yes, but it doesn't want the graveyard to pile up either. Effort builds maps, and getting your map modded and starred requires effort.Ryuukun wrote:
No i said that too harsh guidline will result in less people start to make maps.
and this could be the overkill for a young game like osu which is growing.
I see it in Stepmania.
Sometimes you play around 200 songs for 1 year.
I doubt it will ever come to this in osu but doesn't osu want players to contribute?
Experienced mappers have shown their effort time and time again.
Topic Starter
That wasnt really the issue, though my title kinda suggests it. Its not that priority isnt translating to rank. It is that priority means nothing in the current system.
This discussion has already been touched upon in the party foul thread.
so.. whats priority for?
This discussion has already been touched upon in the party foul thread.
so.. whats priority for?
Priority determines when a beatmap should be looked at.RemmyX25 wrote:
As I said earlier...RemmyX25 wrote:
Priority =/= rankability.
This topic isn't about ranking, from what I now see, only what maps BAT's should look at.
I focus on high priority maps, and sometimes I look at a lower priority map because someone asked nicely, I love the song, or I'm doing a mod trade. I'm fine with a slight increase, but 20 kd is absolutely out of line. Good maps deserve to get ranked, and mapping quality isn't by any means equivalent to star priority.
Star priority shows that the mapper has some amount of community involvement and/or dedication to their map, and that counts for something in my decisions of which map to mod. And I hope other mods share my opinion on this. But come on, give us some freedom. We do favours for friends sometimes, and there's a lot of friendship among BATs. Sure, we have our responsibilities, but we're not servants. We're members of the community who just happen to be charged with making decisions about which maps are high-quality.
As for Party Foul, I don't think ranking that quickly should happen all the time, but like I said, sometimes we look at each others' maps. And sometimes we find those maps to be worthy of ranking.
Star priority shows that the mapper has some amount of community involvement and/or dedication to their map, and that counts for something in my decisions of which map to mod. And I hope other mods share my opinion on this. But come on, give us some freedom. We do favours for friends sometimes, and there's a lot of friendship among BATs. Sure, we have our responsibilities, but we're not servants. We're members of the community who just happen to be charged with making decisions about which maps are high-quality.
As for Party Foul, I don't think ranking that quickly should happen all the time, but like I said, sometimes we look at each others' maps. And sometimes we find those maps to be worthy of ranking.
Topic Starter
lots of valid points.
I guess 20 is kinda crazy, but so is the amount of bubbles (not to mention those that probably do deserve bubbles) i just see 8 and even 10 to be very very easy to bypass.
one thing i can say without repeating myself too hard is that while -
One extra thing about party foul that prolly has no place here, going through it, its a simple style and has a few pattern imperfections that do not look intentional. Things that would NEVER be acceptable going through normal modding. Yet, i wont argue that it is fine as is and rankable.
So currently, most of us are forced to opt for overmodding to get priority. Then we must hope that there is a good amount of bats following priority. If we dont get said priority then we might get the "theres more important maps than urs!" bomb.
talkin in circles again so.. meh.
I guess 20 is kinda crazy, but so is the amount of bubbles (not to mention those that probably do deserve bubbles) i just see 8 and even 10 to be very very easy to bypass.
one thing i can say without repeating myself too hard is that while -
"mapping quality isn't by any means equivalent to star priority. "Star priority is the only means for some mappers to show that they might have some type of quality going.
One extra thing about party foul that prolly has no place here, going through it, its a simple style and has a few pattern imperfections that do not look intentional. Things that would NEVER be acceptable going through normal modding. Yet, i wont argue that it is fine as is and rankable.
So currently, most of us are forced to opt for overmodding to get priority. Then we must hope that there is a good amount of bats following priority. If we dont get said priority then we might get the "theres more important maps than urs!" bomb.
talkin in circles again so.. meh.
Hey, people... Don't forget it's only a game.
But I don't like current situation.
About foulcoon map... It was ranked without any mod post, but mod post it's not only tecnical mistakes, it's suggestions how improve your map.
But I don't like current situation.
About foulcoon map... It was ranked without any mod post, but mod post it's not only tecnical mistakes, it's suggestions how improve your map.
Unfortunately, to some, Star Priority just means you got a lot of people to play your map, thats it, and doesn't contribute to the map at all.fufe wrote:
one thing i can say without repeating myself too hard is that while -"mapping quality isn't by any means equivalent to star priority. "Star priority is the only means for some mappers to show that they might have some type of quality going.
Yes please. +1 Support.LuigiHann wrote:
Maybe bring back the BAT ranking leaderboard, and have higher-priority maps be worth the most points.
Cute. However, I have to agree. Too much bitching over a game.tieff wrote:
Hey, people... Don't forget it's only a game.
This.tieff wrote:
About foulcoon map... It was ranked without any mod post, but mod post it's not only tecnical mistakes, it's suggestions how improve your map
The reason Party Foul got ranked was because 2 BATs could not find a way to improve the map. I even played the map before it got ranked (just out of curiosity, without bubbling or anything) and thought it was fine.
well i got a question then
how do the non famous mappers with maps that happen to be absolutley fine, get their maps looked at by bats with no/very low priority? if im going to get an answer like this "no other mappers have ever had perfect maps" then please dont comment <_< i've been around pending forums a few times so i know what im talking about.
again i dont wish to discuss this on the forums cause it usually ends up offending someone or i get misunderstood, so please if anyone would like to comment talk to me in irc.
how do the non famous mappers with maps that happen to be absolutley fine, get their maps looked at by bats with no/very low priority? if im going to get an answer like this "no other mappers have ever had perfect maps" then please dont comment <_< i've been around pending forums a few times so i know what im talking about.
again i dont wish to discuss this on the forums cause it usually ends up offending someone or i get misunderstood, so please if anyone would like to comment talk to me in irc.
no no no no. That is a whole new rant thread entirely. Maybe some of Part Foul wouldn't go through nazi-mod standards, but something such as a pattern imperfection should not stop a map from being ranked.fufe wrote:
Things that would NEVER be acceptable going through normal modding.
edit: @Gabi, that's where good reputation comes in hand. We all have friends, and friends do friends favors (as Cheesewarlock said.)
I also agree with Cheese's point (actually, all of them probably) that things like Party Foul should not happen often. But the thing is, it doesn't happen often. So cut us some slack, give us some freedom, and move on from party foul. I assure you that complaining about the system does not encourage
Topic Starter
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I love how people keep putting "this damn debate" up again, yet seem to keep forgetting to stay on-topic.
Get non-BAT modders. Please include the possibility (and even the worth) of non-BAT modders out there that have been working so hard to improve maps that they're not even supposed to be concerned about. If you can't get their trust and approval, how more else can you get a BAT's?
The priority system does not increase the chances of getting your map ranked, but it sure makes us BATs conscious about them.
Anyway, I don't see anything to be saddened about those two situations.
Mapper one got his map ranked quickly, probably because he "got lucky" to get BATs to check his map. The BATs could've found no errors and decided to rank it.
Mapper two got his map modded very heavily. His map was prone to suggestions that increased the quality of his map even beyond his capabilities.
In the end, who gets the better deal? I'd say mapper two did. His map was chosen to receive improvements; the other one was probably just ranked for the hell of it. Those who followed the path of mapper two's had the better chance of having...
THE EPIC MAP EVER.
See? Mappers nowadays don't care how good their maps are. They just want them ranked, that's why. In the long run, the rating spread will tell you how good the maps really are. Players today can easily see a half-baked map from a fully-honed one.
This is a bit off-topic, but I'll answer you anyway.Gabi wrote:
how do the non famous mappers with maps that happen to be absolutley fine, get their maps looked at by bats with no/very low priority?
Get non-BAT modders. Please include the possibility (and even the worth) of non-BAT modders out there that have been working so hard to improve maps that they're not even supposed to be concerned about. If you can't get their trust and approval, how more else can you get a BAT's?
The priority system does not increase the chances of getting your map ranked, but it sure makes us BATs conscious about them.
... fufe? I thought this thread is about the minimum priority to rank? Why are you discussing about ranking?fufe wrote:
its sad to see this happen.
Mapper 1: Ive 8 stars in less than a week, im ready for rankage! =D (gets ranked)
Mapper 2: Ive got 35 stars over the course of a month, 25 more to go to get top priority D; (unseen)
-mapper 2 may be bad mapper.. but mapper2 may also be pressured to recieve tons of overmodding just for the sake of having to pump that priority number.
Anyway, I don't see anything to be saddened about those two situations.
Mapper one got his map ranked quickly, probably because he "got lucky" to get BATs to check his map. The BATs could've found no errors and decided to rank it.
Mapper two got his map modded very heavily. His map was prone to suggestions that increased the quality of his map even beyond his capabilities.
In the end, who gets the better deal? I'd say mapper two did. His map was chosen to receive improvements; the other one was probably just ranked for the hell of it. Those who followed the path of mapper two's had the better chance of having...
THE EPIC MAP EVER.
See? Mappers nowadays don't care how good their maps are. They just want them ranked, that's why. In the long run, the rating spread will tell you how good the maps really are. Players today can easily see a half-baked map from a fully-honed one.