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Newbie Mafia 2! [Mafia Win!]

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adam2046
It is ^_^
Nice subtle way of telling your buddy not to look like your buddy~
0_o
I defending you because I don't want to risk killing the doctor -_- if i didn't think you were the doctor, trust me, you wouldn't be here right now :P
BagelBob

Echo wrote:

edit:
note to everyone: I've probably made just as many posts as strager has. If I can pick holes in strager's arguments and claims, then any lies, inconsistencies or logical fallacies I've made should also be just as evident. I encourage you to through and confirm or deny, for yourself, the authenticity of my train of thought.
Well, if you insist.

Echo wrote:

So now you're admitting cop? General rule: first to mention cop in any way is cop themselves.

I was going to vote you now, but since you're suggesting you're cop now, I'll let you defend yourself first.
I've never heard of this rule. Furthermore, I feel as though you're putting words in his mouth. He never claimed to be the cop, and you were the first person who said he was the doc.


Also, I'd like to point out.

Echo wrote:

First, you claim an important role.
http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/viewtopic.php?p=139874#p139874

Echo wrote:

Firstly, strager never claimed doctor.
http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/viewtopic.php?p=139897#p139897

Echo wrote:

First, I suggested that strager was doctor, to which he immediately confirmed.
http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/viewtopic.php?p=140180#p140180

Thus, I repeat

BagelBob wrote:

Echo, could you point me to where strager claims?
However, I don't want to give the wrong idea. I agree with most of the things you've said about strager(one disagreement is that when he gives up, you think that's more scummy while I think it doesn't show anything but fatigue while another is that I'd like to give him more credit than doubt for backing off his claim that he should consider adam town for the day rather than have him continue pushing that adam is still town). But everything else looks right on the money.

I'd also like to add

strager wrote:

Saying I am defending myself (however implicitly) is baseless. So I'll completely disregard your attacks on my defense.
That statement both implies that you were not defending yourself and states that you have a defense.


Oh, and Derekuu-Chan, this is a summery, not a suspicion list. However, I feel that I should apologize. I forgot that sarcasm can't be conveyed over the internets.
When I said before

BagelBob wrote:

I Vote Kuu for lying! This is NO wolf game!
It was in response to

kuu wrote:

I FORGOT AM I INVITED HERE---OH RIGHT IT'S THE WOLF GAME IM NOT IN.
Where I meant to show that kuu was lying about being in the game. Trying to stay low on the radar or just being kuu? I'll never know.

And any parodies I do are for my own amusement. If they should happen to point out a newbie mistake that could be a scum-tell, so be it.
Echo

BagelBob wrote:

Echo, could you point me to where strager claims?
viewtopic.php?p=139263#p139263

When I say he "claimed" doctor, I was referring to this incident in the post above. I merely suggested he was doctor, and he "claimed" it by saying he "didn't mean to". As (I think) I've pointed out before, strager didn't claim doctor explicitly, which is what I mean by him not "claiming" doctor.
Derekku

BagelBob wrote:

Oh, and Derekku-Chan, this is a summary, not a suspicion list. However, I feel that I should apologize. I forgot that sarcasm can't be conveyed over the internets.
Yeah that's what I meant. I seriously need to stop posting after midnight. My brain just doesn't work right.
anonymous_old
Okay, I'm going through the entire thread and pointing out suspicious actions.

MONSTER POST but there's a lot to go over. It's probably disorganized because this text box is so small. >_<

Not gonna proof read either. x_x

Echo wrote:

ISeriously, forget what I said about not bringing personal issues into the game; vote Kuwarudo. strager can go on day 2.
The last comment about "strager can go on day 2" means Echo suspects either I am not the Doctor or he is a Mafia (or both, but I doubt that).

Of course, as BagelBob points out, his believing that I am the Doctor has swayed:

BagelBob wrote:

Also, I'd like to point out.

Echo wrote:

First, you claim an important role.
http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/viewtopic.php?p=139874#p139874

Echo wrote:

Firstly, strager never claimed doctor.
http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/viewtopic.php?p=139897#p139897

Echo wrote:

First, I suggested that strager was doctor, to which he immediately confirmed.
http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/viewtopic.php?p=140180#p140180

Thus, I repeat

BagelBob wrote:

Echo, could you point me to where strager claims?
Also here, it is clear Echo doesn't believe I am the Doctor:

Echo wrote:

strager wrote:

Echo wrote:

Villagers don't lie about aux roles.
Eh? Is that a rule, or are you stating a general trend?
There's no reason for townies to claim aux roles. "Drawing attention" away from the real aux roles almost never works. The only people with reason to claim an aux role are either wolves or the real aux role.

There is an exception, of course, when it's all planned out, but you can't talk behind the scenes in this game so you can't use someone else as a substitute and act through them to protect yourself.
Another:

Echo wrote:

strager wrote:

I see, that's something you've learned from experience? I'll keep that in mind for the next games I play, and even this game when the Cop shows up (if there even is a Cop; see my post a few pages back).
So now you're admitting cop? General rule: first to mention cop in any way is cop themselves.

I was going to vote you now, but since you're suggesting you're cop now, I'll let you defend yourself first.
Why would he twist my statement into a role claim for a Cop but not believe my role claim for a Doctor? I know you don't think I'm a Cop and you're trying to confuse us.

So does Echo really believe I am the Doctor? That's for anyone to decide for themselves but I believe his indecisiveness means he doesn't believe I am the Doctor. Thus, the only reasonable option is that Echo is a Mafia.

----------

To support BagelBob's point about Echo's indecisiveness, I'll bring up another quote from Echo:

Echo wrote:

That's not a claim, it's a passing suggestion.
Which contradicts:

Echo wrote:

First, I suggested that strager was doctor, to which he immediately confirmed.
----------

0_o seems to be very forgiving, and I'm not sure how to take this.

0_o wrote:

I don't really find nardi particularly suspicious, it's just that everyone else just seems innocent :P

0_o wrote:

as much as kuwarudo's posts can be annoying/pointless, I'm inclined to believe him in his villager claim, and I don't want to lynch a townie just so I don't have to skip over some useless posts. So (sorry) unvote Kuwarudo

0_o wrote:

I just don't have enough to go on to vote anyone right now, we need people to talk so we can get to know them and base decisions off of their arguments.
0_o seems to stay away from the fray, even though he encourages it. He slips under the radar in most of his posts.

0_o wrote:

ok, as of now the only 2 people i haven't "diagnosed" in my mind as pro-town is adam2046 and nardi.
He doesn't state how he came to this conclusion and how he ruled out anyone as being pro-Town.

----------

Echo wrote:

derekku has posted about absolutely nothing. All the so-called votes he's pointing out as "suspicious" are random votes made at the start of the game.
True, but 0_o has posted about absolutely nothing as well.

Also, if you post about absolutely nothing you're more likely to know about absolutely nothing. On the other hand, if you post about a lot of things, you probably know more than other people do.

So it seems as if Echo's "FOS" (first something suspect???) is Derekku it's completely unbased, because I am pretty sure Echo knows what I just said in the previous paragraph. So either that "FOS" is a random "FOS" or just meant to point figures elsewhere than the Mafia.

Also:

Echo wrote:

Finally, the coup de grâce (in the same post):

strager wrote:

So actually by writing all this I see my claim that adam is on my team [townie] is probably wrong, and Echo is right in questioning my reasoning.
Now he's backing out of the claim!
I can't change my mind? If everything were set in stone this game wouldn't be fun. You may see I seem like a hypocrite because I mentioned Echo's indecisiveness, but this is different. Rather than jumping around some ideas like Echo has to try and put up a convincing argument, I stated that I changed my views because of a valid argument. How is my case wrong?

----------

BagelBob wrote:

I'd also like to add

strager wrote:

Saying I am defending myself (however implicitly) is baseless. So I'll completely disregard your attacks on my defense.
That statement both implies that you were not defending yourself and states that you have a defense.
By the "defense" I meant Echo accusing me of using my role claim as a Doctor to defend myself. I didn't mean defending myself against his arguments.

----------

I noticed something which could be very subtle and thus I am totally over-looking-into:

Echo wrote:

strager wrote:

Echo wrote:

Villagers don't lie about aux roles.
Eh? Is that a rule, or are you stating a general trend?
There's no reason for townies to claim aux roles. "Drawing attention" away from the real aux roles almost never works. The only people with reason to claim an aux role are either wolves or the real aux role.
And BagelBob's response:

BagelBob wrote:

Oh, and I have to disagree with you on that matter. A fake-claim by a town could work out nicely. I certainly don't think that's what's happening here, but I could see it working.
Echo shows that a certain strategy won't work for the Town, and BagelBob says it does. Echo also probably doesn't believe I am the Doctor (see first part of this post), and thus thinks I am "drawing attention away from the real aux roles." He is thus stating a plan will fail, and tries to fail that plan. More reason to suspect Echo is a Mafia.

BagelBob on the other hand says that the strategy could work. He's supportive of the Town, but I don't think he really believes I am the Doctor. Either way, only those of the Town would truly support the Town, so he's probably of the Town ("Townie" is the correct terminology?).

----------

Echo seems to be super defensive of adam in his latest next-to-latest post. Why? I'm not pointing my finger at him.
Echo
I've explained why I've been mixing and matching "claim" and "didn't claim" here:

Echo wrote:

BagelBob wrote:

Echo, could you point me to where strager claims?
viewtopic.php?p=139263#p139263

When I say he "claimed" doctor, I was referring to this incident in the post above. I merely suggested he was doctor, and he "claimed" it by saying he "didn't mean to". As (I think) I've pointed out before, strager didn't claim doctor explicitly, which is what I mean by him not "claiming" doctor.
As for putting you on cop: I didn't (and still don't) believe you are doctor. Thus, since you so eagerly claimed doctor, when I don't think you are, your reluctance to mention anything to do with the cop after I suggested it makes me think there's something more to that.
anonymous_old

Echo wrote:

I've explained why I've been mixing and matching "claim" and "didn't claim" here:

Echo wrote:

BagelBob wrote:

Echo, could you point me to where strager claims?
viewtopic.php?p=139263#p139263

When I say he "claimed" doctor, I was referring to this incident in the post above. I merely suggested he was doctor, and he "claimed" it by saying he "didn't mean to". As (I think) I've pointed out before, strager didn't claim doctor explicitly, which is what I mean by him not "claiming" doctor.
I don't believe you there.

Echo wrote:

As for putting you on cop: I didn't (and still don't) believe you are doctor. Thus, since you so eagerly claimed doctor, when I don't think you are, your reluctance to mention anything to do with the cop after I suggested it makes me think there's something more to that.
0_o already has for me:

0_o wrote:

And how exactly does mentioning the cop imply that he's claiming cop??
If you want me to explain why I mentioned the Cop, here's why.

The quote in question:

strager wrote:

Echo wrote:

strager wrote:

Echo write: Villagers don't lie about aux roles. (Nested quote limit, sorry.)

Eh? Is that a rule, or are you stating a general trend?
There's no reason for townies to claim aux roles. "Drawing attention" away from the real aux roles almost never works. The only people with reason to claim an aux role are either wolves or the real aux role.

There is an exception, of course, when it's all planned out, but you can't talk behind the scenes in this game so you can't use someone else as a substitute and act through them to protect yourself.
I see, that's something you've learned from experience? I'll keep that in mind for the next games I play, and even this game when the Cop shows up (if there even is a Cop; see my post a few pages back).
Why I mentioned the Cop is simple: he must exist assuming my conclusion on which roles are in the game is correct. Thus, I would use your knowledge that role-claiming is disadvantageous for a Town player, and advantageous for the Cop himself and a Mafia.

However, in my previous post I have stated that BagelBob believes claiming Doctor is a good idea, so this may apply to the Cop but I am not sure.

That is, I don't care much about the Cop now but I should/will be later in the game, especially when there is a role claim. (If the alleged Cop is lynched or killed by the Mafia we would know his role. If he weren't, and he wasn't the Cop (because the real Cop would probably come out), he'd be a Mafia. So, if he isn't lynched, I would protect him and if someone was killed by the Mafia it would be known the alleged Cop is a Mafia. If the Mafia did try and kill him he is likely really the Cop.)
0_o

strager wrote:

0_o seems to be very forgiving, and I'm not sure how to take this.

0_o wrote:

I don't really find nardi particularly suspicious, it's just that everyone else just seems innocent :P
Well (at the time I wrote this at least) there was simply no one who set off any warning bells in my mind.

0_o wrote:

as much as kuwarudo's posts can be annoying/pointless, I'm inclined to believe him in his villager claim, and I don't want to lynch a townie just so I don't have to skip over some useless posts. So (sorry) unvote Kuwarudo
I voted for him because he was being annoying, saying he wanted to quit because he was a townie changed my mind; if he was threatening to quit (which he did) why would he lie?

0_o wrote:

I just don't have enough to go on to vote anyone right now, we need people to talk so we can get to know them and base decisions off of their arguments.
0_o seems to stay away from the fray, even though he encourages it. He slips under the radar in most of his posts.
erm, what? Besides you and Echo I'm pretty sure I've contributed the most to this game out of the players so far. Though granted most of my posts have been on the topic of keeping you around :P

0_o wrote:

ok, as of now the only 2 people i haven't "diagnosed" in my mind as pro-town is adam2046 and nardi.
He doesn't state how he came to this conclusion and how he ruled out anyone as being pro-Town.
"Diagnosed" was in quotations because it was mainly just my instincts/first impressions of the 2 or 3 posts each person (again, besides you and Echo) made so far. It definitely isn't "official", it's just those were the two people who when I read through made me go "mm, I dunno about this guy..."
Echo

strager wrote:

Echo wrote:

I've explained why I've been mixing and matching "claim" and "didn't claim" here:

Echo wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/viewtopic.php?p=139263#p139263

When I say he "claimed" doctor, I was referring to this incident in the post above. I merely suggested he was doctor, and he "claimed" it by saying he "didn't mean to". As (I think) I've pointed out before, strager didn't claim doctor explicitly, which is what I mean by him not "claiming" doctor.
I don't believe you there.
Do you really think it's that hard to keep track of saying whether you claimed doctor or not, unless there was a reason behind mixing claim with not claim?

strager wrote:

Why I mentioned the Cop is simple: he must exist assuming my conclusion on which roles are in the game is correct. Thus, I would use your knowledge that role-claiming is disadvantageous for a Town player, and advantageous for the Cop himself and a Mafia.
You're drawing conclusions from Suburu's pregame story now? Any one of the four combinations are possible. There is absolutely no way you can tell which combination is being used in the game. Don't even try to go there.

strager wrote:

However, in my previous post I have stated that BagelBob believes claiming Doctor is a good idea, so this may apply to the Cop but I am not sure.
It's never good to role claim on the first day, when there's nothing you can do to prove or disprove the claim. And since you can't talk outside the thread, you can't use it to convince anyone anyway.

What strikes me the most is how you repeatedly confirm you know adam is innocent, then suddenly back out of that claim when I say it's impossible for you to know that. This is what makes me think with almost 100% certainty that you are mafia.
anonymous_old
0_o, I see your points but still don't know what to think ultimately. I mean, you could be playing Mister Nice Guy to try and not get killed (this makes sense because many accuse me of being a Mafia and if that were true I would kill the person attacking me the most and certainly not the one defending me).

On my comment about you just watching the fray: I still stand by that view because you've only fed the discussion ("fire") and not jumped into it yourself. You'd jumping a little more now, which is good (or bad?), because we get more information and view points.

----------

Echo wrote:

Do you really think it's that hard to keep track of saying whether you claimed doctor or not, unless there was a reason behind mixing claim with not claim?
Uh...

What? O_o

Echo wrote:

strager wrote:

Why I mentioned the Cop is simple: he must exist assuming my conclusion on which roles are in the game is correct. Thus, I would use your knowledge that role-claiming is disadvantageous for a Town player, and advantageous for the Cop himself and a Mafia.
You're drawing conclusions from Suburu's pregame story now? Any one of the four combinations are possible. There is absolutely no way you can tell which combination is being used in the game. Don't even try to go there.
I was explaining that my mention of a Cop was NOT a role claim and I was assuming my prediction near the beginning of the game was correct for this reason, and only this reason.

Echo wrote:

What strikes me the most is how you repeatedly confirm you know adam is innocent, then suddenly back out of that claim when I say it's impossible for you to know that. This is what makes me think with almost 100% certainty that you are mafia.
It was not a "sudden" backing out. You mentioned something which "foiled my plans" and I explained that it did "foil my plans." Accepting your argument causes more suspicion?

Also, I do still believe (unfoundedly, like most beliefs ;P)adam is innocent, for what it's worth.

Oh, and let me try.

What strikes me the most is how you repeatedly confirm you know I am guilty, then suddenly back out of defending yourself against the attacks of my post earlier today when you yourself say a lack of defense means you are a Mafia. This (okay, not really this last sentence, because that's just BS) is what makes me know with 100% certainty that you are a Mafia.

My vote still stands against Echo.

(Yeah it was a bit longer and cooler but what can I say? I know this for a fact now.)
Derekku
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Echo
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anonymous_old
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Topic Starter
LadySuburu
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adam2046
Hey hey Echo!
I didn't vote for you ^_^
Echo
So I'm throwing things at strager.

But don't just sit back, say, and I quote, I "need to stop being so fucking aggresive. strager has never even played before, and you're throwing every fucking thing in the book at him."

THEN THROW THINGS AT ME. BUT BE DAMN SURE YOU BACK IT UP WITH QUOTES FROM THIS THREAD.

LIKE I DID. LIKE STRAGER DID. LIKE 0_o DID. LIKE BAGEL DID. He's enjoying the game. I'm enjoying the game. We're all enjoying the game. If you're not, get out.
adam2046
Saying that strager is new is an awful point, if you want go take a quick peek at my first mafia game...no I'll wait.
See?
Saying someone is new to the game isn't a very good excuse if they're capable of being smart.
Derekku
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Derekku

Echo wrote:

So I'm throwing things at strager.

But don't just sit back, say, and I quote, I "need to stop being so fucking aggresive. strager has never even played before, and you're throwing every fucking thing in the book at him."

THEN THROW THINGS AT ME. BUT BE DAMN SURE YOU BACK IT UP WITH QUOTES FROM THIS THREAD.

LIKE I DID. LIKE STRAGER DID. LIKE 0_o DID. LIKE BAGEL DID. He's enjoying the game. I'm enjoying the game. We're all enjoying the game. If you're not, get out.
I made a mistake.

I am enjoying the game.

Again, sorry for saying that to you. I was comparing you to everyone else for the wrong reason.

I'll go back through the thread tomorrow and look at everyone's points again.
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