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Nazi-modding is not the way to go.

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lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
I mod for how it plays, if people care to nazi mod I wont say its wrong but have fun trying to be a BAT. Nothing wrong with pointing out flaws unless BATs are trying to hold ranks for things like one grid off.

Only things I think people should nazi to death are repeating sliders which almost everyone can agree when used improperly can seriously mess up the flow of a map. Of course the irritability of repeating sliders varies immensely on how they are used, how well they fit the rythm, IF THEY END IN THE DIRECTION THAT YOUR MIND THINKS THEY WILL END. Some mappers still try to have a slider repeat 3 times for one section then 4 times out of the blue for another section.



Honestly here's how you should mod.

Open up the map in play(or test if you're a bad player) and play through it, take note of anything that breaks your combo or flow, point it out.

Bam, a modded map.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

lukewarmholiday wrote:

Only things I think people should nazi to death are repeating sliders which almost everyone can agree when used improperly can seriously mess up the flow of a map. Of course the irritability of repeating sliders varies immensely on how they are used, how well they fit the rythm, IF THEY END IN THE DIRECTION THAT YOUR MIND THINKS THEY WILL END. Some mappers still try to have a slider repeat 3 times for one section then 4 times out of the blue for another section.
I agree that many short repeating sliders are horrible. Not many in ranked maps, but they're there. I disagree with all sliders because some longer (two or more beats, sometimes one and a half beats)) repeating sliders are effective. My main issue with repeats, though, is that some are too long and some are too short in total length. This isn't as much of a problem if only a break follows, but it's annoying in faster maps like that Yu-Gi-Oh mix one where you don't know when they end.

</mini-rant>

lukewarmholiday wrote:

Honestly here's how you should mod.

Open up the map in play(or test if you're a bad player) and play through it, take note of anything that breaks your combo or flow, point it out.

Bam, a modded map.
That's what I do mostly. If I notice spacing issues (with patterns, etc.) or timing issues (e.g. with slider starts) in the editor I usually point that out, too. Also, I sometimes save replays so I can go back and see my mistakes and not have to remember everything.

/me just had an idea for a feature request.
/me posts.
/me has posted.
Larto
4,128 posts
Joined June 2008
Larto
I nazi mod a bit sometimes (e.g. 00:01:99 (1) - 1 Level 3 grid to the right), but usually when I do that, I noticed immediately when I saw the note that something is spaced wrongly OR when something isn't perfectly symmetric when the mapper tries to have it symmetric, and I think this is the limit. If you notice while playing that some note is spaced just a tad too far away or too close, or if you intend to have something perfectly symmetric, naziing is totally alright with me.
However, I see this kind of modding as optional.
There's also this bad kind of nazi modding that makes you mod a map for 1 hour just to have everything super perfectly spaced. This kind of modding usually sucks and is very annoying. If someone suggests stuff like that on my map, I proceed to make an annoyed face, however I do most of it, 'cos I'm a perfectionist. I still think that it's stupid.

tldr: Nazi modding is good if:
- You notice the errors immediately when seeing them.
- You try to get perfect symmetry in your map.

Nazi modding is not good if:
- The player wouldn't even notice a difference while playing.

No exceptions.
James
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4,371 posts
Joined January 2008
James
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anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

James wrote:

To those who mod with combocolors instead of 1-grid shit:
Please take a look at the pattern of the map first?
They might not follow the vocals...
They might follow the symmetrical patterns of the map layout...
They may intentionally not following the time signature(?) because
...Basically its the same as 1-grid shit.
I'm a combo nazi myself. I may close attention to combos greater than 8 or 12 notes (depending on the song). I also look out for single-note combos and make sure they make sense. (Creativity counts as sense; a mistake doesn't.)

If all your combos are off by one, e.g. vocals are mapped and they start on the fourth beat of a measure (in 4/4), and the combos start on the first beat of a measure, I mention that.

Switching instruments calls for spacing change, slider style change, and a new combo, as another example of what to mod for combos.

I'm guilty of messing up combos on a pattern but luckily it was mentioned and corrected. I'm grateful, EEeee.

Another note: you list a lot of "maybe"'s but no "definitely"'s, James, making it sound as if modding combos is completely wrong because the author intended it to be like that.

TL;DR because we're all doing it:
James is wrong about combo modding. It's okay to combo mod.
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman
I've tried nazi-modding before. I felt like I was wasting both my time and the mapper's while doing it. The kudosu are attractive and all but nazi-modding is boring as hell. It's not worth it.

So now I just mod by playing the map and noting the spots that either threw me off or looked ugly. Often, I end up saying the map has no errors.

Whenever I map (even though I only have one map and it's in pending, lol) the comments I tend to value the most are the ones that say something like "I had fun playing this". I wish it was appropriate to give kudosu for that...

Thanks for posting this, Rolled.
Echo
osu! Alumni
3,008 posts
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Echo
Spacing
Don't point them out unless it's painfully obvious when you play through the song. If you need to use the beatspacing lock or need to count the grids to tell it's not spaced right, then you're not modding correctly.

Combo colours
Only point this out when the map gets into double digits too frequently. Otherwise you're wasting your time.

And what's this about nazi modding for kudos? You get kudos only and only if the mapper found your post helpful. Personally, I find nazi posts completely useless and I would never give kudosu to nazi mod posts
vytalibus
osu! Alumni
870 posts
Joined May 2008
vytalibus

Echo wrote:

Combo colours
Only point this out when the map gets into double digits too frequently. Otherwise you're wasting your time.
Actually, I also consider whenever a certain combo drains too much from the life bar, yet the HP drain rate seems to be okay on most parts. If a combo spans for more than five seconds, I might ask for him to change his patterns or just reassemble the combo markings.
Rolled
osu! Alumni
1,886 posts
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Topic Starter
Rolled
I'm going to be blatantly forward and rude in this post.

If you are a nazi mod, or if you are for nazi-modding, you are misinformed and probably haven't been around that long.

As I've said, it's become a fad that has rooted from one or two people (right about the time when community modding ((not BAT modding)) has been admired) and has spread to the majority of the new-modding community, since it's what they see being done in their maps.

If 1-grid alterations were required for a beatmap to be ranked, it'd be in the criteria. And if it was a big deal in the least bit, the editor would be more strict when placing notes. If you use distance/grid snap throughout an entire map, it's not likely you will have many/any spacing errors. Your map be bit a bit boring and straight-forward, but there should be nothing holding your map back from ranking.

There are two-exceptions of nazi-modding to this post. See the screenshots:



^Go ahead and point out the 4. It's clear they were going for a symmetrical, straight stairs-like pattern and a circle got misaligned.



^Point out the 4 as well. This one is a square-pattern, and a circle got misaligned. (apply this to larger square-jumps as well. If you plan to make a square, best way to do it is with horizontal/vertical flips. If they don't line up it may be okay to point out a few-grid alterations that can be done.

Any nazi-mod alterations that do not involve symmetry is wrong.

James
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James
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Echo
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Echo
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anonymous_old
0 posts
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anonymous_old

James wrote:

strager wrote:

blablabla
yes, its OK to combo mod. i didnt say its wrong, but try to look at the pattern/symmetry of the map first.
they might be following the bgm and you keep on enforcing to use a new combo because you thought they are following the vocals...

... which is completely wrong.

and some people might add more combocolors because the map's drain rate is too high and they DONT want to change it.

some people also wants to KEEP their combos less than 10/12... forcing them to add combos > than 12 is a no no. especially for bats who doesnt want to bubble/star a map because the mapper doesnt want to change such trivial things like this.
K, that's what I meant myself, but it didn't seem you meant that from your post.

James wrote:

you might be a nazi mod but im sure i'm far better than you when it comes to modding.
you nazi and i use my brain. (no offence)
I take this as a personal attack.

@Rolled, Yes, I agree. <3
vytalibus
osu! Alumni
870 posts
Joined May 2008
vytalibus

Echo wrote:

vytalibus wrote:

Actually, I also consider whenever a certain combo drains too much from the life bar,
That's impossible because peppy's hp drain algorithm takes that into account.
Algorithmically the HP drain caters to the whole song and the hitcircle/slider patterns, but I'm talking about extreme cases where the HP goes dangerously low in certain parts. A classic example of this would be the original Airman map where with the new updates, the life bar gets drained out on the part where you'll probably think a break should be in (AKA that instrumental part).

Note that I've used the term "extreme" to describe how rarely this happens. Nowadays, mappers are too scared to put a very high HP drain rate.
Detective Tuesday
233 posts
Here since the beginning
Detective Tuesday
Nazi-modding is DUMB. If I could add anything that Rolled or others haven't said already, I would.

I'll just reiterate the most important point: Don't judge "mis-stacks" by how they look in the editor. If they play normally, they're passable.
eee
692 posts
Joined January 2008
eee

Rolled wrote:

Any nazi-mod alterations that do not involve symmetry is wrong.
I still think of that as naz-eeemodding, anything that has to do with design issues and hitcircles (nothing to do with timing) is a nazi mod.

in the Combo Colour part of this fiasco, combo colors should be according to verse/instrument changes and high combos, thats it.

I also agree with Echo on that portion, when did kudosu become something for effort, well, maybe effort, but what about help, if you DO NOT use the mod and think it's too stupid, just don't give the modder kudosu and do not follow the mod. kudosu are for the things that you are like "ohhhh, I forgot/didn't notice that, thx."
Starrodkirby86
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Echo
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CheeseWarlock
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CheeseWarlock
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vytalibus
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vytalibus
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Mogsy
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Mogsy
Generally, when I nazimod, I DO look at what the mapper is going for and merely attempt to help them polish it. Pointing out blatant errors is also part of this. However, I need to call something out:

James wrote:

To those who mod with combocolors instead of 1-grid shit:
Please take a look at the pattern of the map first?
They might not follow the vocals...
They might follow the symmetrical patterns of the map layout...
They may intentionally not following the time signature(?) because
...Basically its the same as 1-grid shit.
Whenever I mod combo numbers, it's generally to make things make more sense. If the song itself is accented a certain way and if a mapper has mapped along those accents, then one certain numbering will make more sense and be better than random numbering.

I've gotten better since back in the day with this sort of thing, it's merely a point of doing this:
A) Following the song's style.
B) Following the style of the map.
C) Analyzing the accents and patterns of the map.
D) Finding which numbering helps make the map flow more smoothly.
...all of this at the same time.

Like you said in your other post, there's nothing wrong with combo number modding, but like people have said in the past, it needs to make sense.

As far as the acceptability of nazi-modding: don't look for just things to change, for crying out loud. The level I personally mod at is incredibly perfectionist, but I don't look for problems like crazy, I just point out exactly what I notice. If I think that people are picking at straws for things to change, then I will deny them kudosu. If the nazi-mod post is actually helpful, then they get it.
Saturos
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1,630 posts
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Saturos
'Sup

If it plays/feels/looks wrong when actually playing the map, call it out. If you have to physically go out of your way to find something wrong with something that felt and looked fine during play, you're doing it wrong.

Kiss and make-up now, kthx.
Rolled
osu! Alumni
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Topic Starter
Rolled
who the fuck is this guy
Saturos
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Saturos
A wandering badass.
rust45
1,088 posts
Joined May 2009
rust45

Mogsworth wrote:

Generally, when I nazimod, I DO look at what the mapper is going for and merely attempt to help them polish it. Pointing out blatant errors is also part of this. However, I need to call something out:

James wrote:

To those who mod with combocolors instead of 1-grid shit:
Please take a look at the pattern of the map first?
They might not follow the vocals...
They might follow the symmetrical patterns of the map layout...
They may intentionally not following the time signature(?) because
...Basically its the same as 1-grid shit.
Whenever I mod combo numbers, it's generally to make things make more sense. If the song itself is accented a certain way and if a mapper has mapped along those accents, then one certain numbering will make more sense and be better than random numbering.

I've gotten better since back in the day with this sort of thing, it's merely a point of doing this:
A) Following the song's style.
B) Following the style of the map.
C) Analyzing the accents and patterns of the map.
D) Finding which numbering helps make the map flow more smoothly.
...all of this at the same time.

Like you said in your other post, there's nothing wrong with combo number modding, but like people have said in the past, it needs to make sense.

As far as the acceptability of nazi-modding: don't look for just things to change, for crying out loud. The level I personally mod at is incredibly perfectionist, but I don't look for problems like crazy, I just point out exactly what I notice. If I think that people are picking at straws for things to change, then I will deny them kudosu. If the nazi-mod post is actually helpful, then they get it.
^This I agree completely

Rolled wrote:

who the fuck is this guy
Does it matter he's someone with an opinion adding to the discussion, you don't need you use such harsh language just because you don't know someone.
Derekku
COOL DUDE
7,270 posts
Joined March 2009
Derekku

rust45 wrote:

Rolled wrote:

who the fuck is this guy
Does it matter he's someone with an opinion adding to the discussion, you don't need you use such harsh language just because you don't know someone.
lrn2sarcasm
Saturos
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Saturos
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal. People know me. I'm very important.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday

Saturos wrote:

rust45
1,088 posts
Joined May 2009
rust45

Derekku Chan wrote:

rust45 wrote:

Rolled wrote:

who the fuck is this guy
Does it matter he's someone with an opinion adding to the discussion, you don't need you use such harsh language just because you don't know someone.
lrn2sarcasm
inb4failisnoted, oh wait. :roll:
Last edited by rust45 , edited 1 time in total.
EEeee
1,026 posts
Joined July 2008
EEeee
Back on topic

Nazi-modding isn't the way to go, as long as I find their modding useful, I consider it helpful
but for anyone who has to, HAS TO, find something wrong with a perfect map,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, DAMN
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

EEeee wrote:

but for anyone who has to, HAS TO, find something wrong with a perfect map,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, DAMN
It's for the kd. Yes, I myself am sometimes greedy. I'm sure everyone has greed in them somewhere and may "use" it to nazi mod some time. If you have a problem with that, don't give the kd's or ask a BAT to remove kd's. (Hopefully the BAT will have good judgment and perhaps deny your request to deny.)

However, I believe kudosu should be given for any mod which is helpful in any way. Even if it points out one thing wrong with your map it deserves thanks, especially if you incorporate the change in your map. (Of course for collabs this gets a bit complicate but whatever.) If the post is full of nazi modding but contains at least one useful tip, take that tip and ignore the naziing if you wish. In a post you can say you ignored the nazi parts and after a while the modder will get the clue that naziing isn't worth the effort. Maybe.
Mogsy
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Mogsy
Not all nazimodding is done for kudosu. Like I stated before, I nazimod out of tough love. I won't nazi a map if there's nothing else I can do to make it better within an individual's style.
anonymous_old
0 posts
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anonymous_old

Mogsworth wrote:

Not all nazimodding is done for kudosu. Like I stated before, I nazimod out of tough love. I won't nazi a map if there's nothing else I can do to make it better within an individual's style.
I meant to say pure naziing, as in checking every single note to make sure it's snapped and things like that. I understand and agree with your position, and am not saying that type of naziing is intolerable or just for kd's.
Echo
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Echo
Instead of trying to find something wrong with a perfect map to get kd (which I would definitely not give btw), go find an unmodded map and get definite kd for modding that!
Mogsy
osu! Alumni
3,450 posts
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Mogsy

Echo wrote:

Instead of trying to find something wrong with a perfect map to get kd (which I would definitely not give btw), go find an unmodded map and get definite kd for modding that!
Doing the former is stupid. I end up only polishing things that stick out (since no map is perfect, but I don't go looking for the individual imperfection, anyone who does that should stop right now and get smacked).

Also, I second the latter.
anonymous_old
0 posts
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anonymous_old

Mogsworth wrote:

Echo wrote:

Instead of trying to find something wrong with a perfect map to get kd (which I would definitely not give btw), go find an unmodded map and get definite kd for modding that!
Doing the former is stupid. I end up only polishing things that stick out (since no map is perfect, but I don't go looking for the individual imperfection, anyone who does that should stop right now and get smacked).

Also, I second the latter.
Same. Not many people go to the Help/WIP section from what I see, and that will surely get you kd's (especially older posts which give you two kd's =]).
Henkie
728 posts
Joined July 2008
Henkie
I don't mod alot.. actually almost never..
But I'm always one of the last modders for some maps,
and then i start to nazi-mod, BUT i only nazi-mod things i see on first sight, and i seem to see such things faster in someone else's map than my own D:
Yuukari-Banteki
1,534 posts
Joined June 2008
Yuukari-Banteki
as the person who kinda set this trend of nazi-modding, i feel im largely responsible for the extremism thats now emerging.

IF YOU CAN'T TELL THAT SOMETHING IS "WRONG" WHILE ACTUALLY PLAYING THE MAP, DON'T BOTHER TO CORRECT IT! This goes for stacking, alignment, etc.

On the same subject, if something is wrong with a map but you cant quite tell what it is, you should still say so and mappers you should pay attention to that.

tl;dr dont be a dick about modding in the name of nazi'ing.
Doomsday
osu! Alumni
1,960 posts
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Doomsday
im not the biggest fan of nazi-modding, but sometimes its required. personally, i rarely, if ever, Nazi mod

my definition of a nazi-mod are mods like "move 1 to the left, grid level 3" mods. i don't consider stuff like "New Combo" or "Whistle Here" to be nazi modding but thats just me.
awp
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awp

Doomsday93 wrote:

i don't consider stuff like "New Combo" or "Whistle Here" to be nazi modding but thats just me.
I wouldn't either, since those are things that might noticeably improve a map. You can actually spot them while playing.
Card N'FoRcE
osu! Alumni
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Card N'FoRcE
Sometimes people don't understand that something was made to be not snapped or alligned by the author himself.
I approve of suggestions for making a stream/stack/whatever look better, but many times i went through simmetry-nazi modding and that's just annoying (i mean, i have more than 10 ranked maps, i think i know how to map xD).
I was a nazi modder once, but i don't nazi anymore: now i do it just for some beats that may actually look better if nazimodded.

So, if a map has lots of 1-2 square grid inconsistancies, just tell the author about it and report just some examples.
IMHO the best way to make him understand how to make a map look better is to make the author fix these kind of things by himself because he will become self-aware of its mistakes.
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