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[Guideline] Creator must map at least 2 diffs.

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DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
Topic Starter
DakeDekaane
If someone can help me with rewording in the title, I think it's a bit misleading but I can't think something else

Well, there aren't many mapsets like this, but I think those mapsets that are: "Creator's diff + GD from mapper 1 + GD from mapper 2 + ... + GD from mapper n" should be discouraged to be able to aim for rank, as the creator may map the easiest diff letting the other mappers do the rest. Obviously if the creator maps the highest/one of them, this could be a little flexible as the creator relatively did a lot of effort.

I suggest moving this from Guidelines to Rules, with some modiffications as you can see.

You must fully map at least two difficulties of a mapset if you are the person who is uploading it. For collaborated beatmap sets, the uploader must be a part of every difficulty. Also, no guest mapper should have more content in the mapset than the creator. It makes no sense to upload a map if you barely contributed to it.
I don't know if there could be exceptions based on lenght or if the creator made the highest difficulty of the set.

Shiro wrote:

I would honestly like to restrict this to at least 50% of the mapset, rather than two difficulties. I don't think I need to explain my reasoning again ?

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

Against the Guideline -> Rule reasons
  1. A map is accountable to a certain mapper when he certainly worked more that other mappers when he mapped more than other mappers, and that only arleady say that you should map at least the same quantity of other mappers ( one diff, plus some other things)
  2. There are mappers that will be against this, many of them... though I'm neutral. And map accountability do it's work.
Againist that particular wording
  1. Well, just no. I don't want any more mappers that can only map "decent" Insane. I want all-over good mappers, and like this you're helping mappers being selfish and just mapping the hardest diff.
  2. If you want it, remove that exception.
  3. EDIT: The exception make the rule null, since people will just map the harder diff and stop.

wmfchris wrote:

There's nothing wrong to have a insane-mapping-expert mapping insane, hard-mapping-expert mapping hard and so on which combines into a overall good complete set. That does not make any difference from a overall-good mapper mapping a complete set.

tieff wrote:

I think uploader should map at least 2 diffs, like hard and easy, insane and normal and so on. But if it's 5-6 min song, 1 diff is fine.
Discuss. o3o
Last edited by DakeDekaane , edited 1 time in total.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
I would honestly like to restrict this to at least 50% of the mapset, rather than two difficulties. I don't think I need to explain my reasoning again ?
popner
osu! Alumni
2,407 posts
Joined March 2011
popner
I think it is discouraged. But note that this will bring no increase in map quality(even a drop because mapper are forced to map something they don't want to, with their creativity exhausted) I will tend to keep this as current.

I actually care more about whether the map do some good to the community, regardless of how it is made.
mancuso_JM_
osu! Alumni
4,615 posts
Joined October 2010
mancuso_JM_
I agree with that as a new rule, it makes a lot of sense to me because if you are the main mapper it sounds coherent map more diffs than Guests mappers
I don't need to add other things, I just support that :P
Natsu
8,074 posts
Joined September 2012
Natsu

Shiro wrote:

I would honestly like to restrict this to at least 50% of the mapset, rather than two difficulties. I don't think I need to explain my reasoning again ?

what about 4 mins maps? I thing is ok do just the insane diff and ask to others for easy, normal and hard
Kawayi Rika
osu! Alumni
3,635 posts
Joined December 2010
Kawayi Rika
This rule is to have any meaning? I think it's unnecessary.
mancuso_JM_
osu! Alumni
4,615 posts
Joined October 2010
mancuso_JM_

Natsu wrote:

what about 4 mins maps? I thing is ok do just the insane diff and ask to others for easy, normal and hard
Well, if you read proper the 'rule' it said that

You must fully map at least two difficulties of a mapset if you are the person who is uploading it, unless you mapped the highest difficulty of the mapset.
So, it won't be any problem with that
But I still think that 2 diffs is better, really

Kawayi Rika wrote:

This rule is to have any meaning? I think it's unnecessary.
And, yes it has. It'll help the main mapper to put more effort in their map and don't be ''lazy'' in some way
Natsu
8,074 posts
Joined September 2012
Natsu

mancusojuanmattos wrote:

Natsu wrote:

what about 4 mins maps? I thing is ok do just the insane diff and ask to others for easy, normal and hard
Well, if you read proper the 'rule' it said that

You must fully map at least two difficulties of a mapset if you are the person who is uploading it, unless you mapped the highest difficulty of the mapset.
So, it won't be any problem with that
But I still think that 2 diffs is better, really
I read it proper i was quoting to shiro say about 50% o.o!
Last edited by mancuso_JM_ , edited 1 time in total.
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
Topic Starter
DakeDekaane
Well, I'm focusing in some mappers' laziness instead mapping quality, my point of view is if a mapper doesn't contribute too much to his/her own mapset, why is that person taking the credit of the mapset as uploader?
Kawayi Rika
osu! Alumni
3,635 posts
Joined December 2010
Kawayi Rika

mancusojuanmattos wrote:

And, yes it has. It'll help the main mapper to put more effort in their map and don't be ''lazy'' in some way
But this made beginner mappers for hard work and stress :(
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Kawayi Rika wrote:

hard work and stress :(
mapping isn't mandatory
popner
osu! Alumni
2,407 posts
Joined March 2011
popner
Ranking a map is not only mapping itself. The uploader need to find mods, deal with mods, and arrange all the guest diff related things. So under current rule the uploader will surely do the most work in ranking a map.
Kawayi Rika
osu! Alumni
3,635 posts
Joined December 2010
Kawayi Rika

those wrote:

mapping isn't mandatory
I mean to take care of beginners,nothing other.
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
Topic Starter
DakeDekaane

Kawayi Rika wrote:

But this made beginner mappers for hard work and stress :(
If we're lenient with newbie mappers they won't learn how to make a proper spread or how to map certain difficulties, as they'll keep depending on other people.

Also, mapping 2 difficulties is not that hard and stressful, unless it's a really long song.
Cobra
352 posts
Joined June 2012
Cobra
This is a good argument. I'm not sure which side to be on. I would say it depends on certain conditions (song length, stuff like that)
Kawayi Rika
osu! Alumni
3,635 posts
Joined December 2010
Kawayi Rika

DakeDekaane wrote:

unless it's a really long song.
Probably this is a problem,less than 2 minutes song = 2diff ? not sure.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
Please make sure not to count difficulties from other modes as well. If not, I could be mapping 4 standard difficulties and still not be able to rank because of 5 other difficulties from different modes (Taiko/CtB/Mania).
Hanyuu
2,223 posts
Joined February 2009
Hanyuu

Shiro wrote:

I would honestly like to restrict this to at least 50% of the mapset, rather than two difficulties. I don't think I need to explain my reasoning again ?
It's your map and you make the majority of it. I think that way explains it the best than deciding a certain number
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
Topic Starter
DakeDekaane
Yep, I agree pretty much with Shiro too, but I can see many people are going to be whining about it, that's why I suggested a number instead.
Saturnalize
1,490 posts
Joined March 2011
Saturnalize

Kawayi Rika wrote:

DakeDekaane wrote:

unless it's a really long song.
Probably this is a problem,less than 2 minutes song = 2diff ? not sure.
If it has low bpm, then why not? It's not like all of TV Size mapper are so lazy or something.
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl
why do you even care of who does the map? there is something bad with mapping only one difficulty?
dkun
osu! Alumni
4,486 posts
Joined August 2009
dkun

DakeDekaane wrote:

Well, I'm focusing in some mappers' laziness instead mapping quality, my point of view is if a mapper doesn't contribute too much to his/her own mapset, why is that person taking the credit of the mapset as uploader?
fix one problem before you fix another

those wrote:

Kawayi Rika wrote:

hard work and stress :(
mapping isn't mandatory
mappers do not need to contribute to others' sets on a mandatory basis. as long as the ratio is fit, then the map is fit for rank.
why impose a rule like this?
[Luxord]
503 posts
Joined August 2011
[Luxord]
I don't understand what you guys talking about. Besides the Marathon beatmaps that need 6 minutes drain time at least to be allowed in pending(That's what I heard, I never tried it), any other map set needs at least two difficulties to be in the Pending section, according to the BSS. I don't agree fully with this rule, personally I would like something like "2 Difficulties at least, a hard and a easy/normal" as a must, if the mapper doesn't want to create more difficulties. The guest difficulties doesn't need to be limited, if the creator wish for more Guest Difficulties, it's their own decision.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Against the Guideline -> Rule reasons
  1. A map is accountable to a certain mapper when he certainly worked more that other mappers when he mapped more than other mappers, and that only arleady say that you should map at least the same quantity of other mappers ( one diff, plus some other things)
  2. There are mappers that will be against this, many of them... though I'm neutral. And map accountability do it's work.
Againist that particular wording
  1. Well, just no. I don't want any more mappers that can only map "decent" Insane. I want all-over good mappers, and like this you're helping mappers being selfish and just mapping the hardest diff.
  2. If you want it, remove that exception.
  3. EDIT: The exception make the rule null, since people will just map the harder diff and stop.
Last edited by HakuNoKaemi , edited 1 time in total.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
I just don't see the point of the rule.

- Laziness does not imply bad quality. The starting point of the rule is to ensure quality, not to ensure the character of the mapper. Sometimes the character is important (e.g. attitude against mod), but not this one.

- Again, we rank maps based on the map, not the mappers. There's nothing wrong to have a insane-mapping-expert mapping insane, hard-mapping-expert mapping hard and so on which combines into a overall good complete set. That does not make any difference from a overall-good mapper mapping a complete set.

- Talking about creator. Providing the GD to another mapper implies that you give him the right to use your creation for further processing (ranking). It is just like an editor collects different essays from distinct writer and put them into a complete book. The main credit is given to the editor, but every individual essay has been titled correctly with the right writer which are correctly credited. Similarly in the mapset we have the uploader collecting the diffs and he has the right to make it published (ranked) and claim the main credit while the GD makers are mentioned in different medium (like GD name, thread opening, etc). Have you seen book publisher restricting that the editor must write a lot in the book other than collecting others' work to claim the main credit? It does not make any sense.

I would really want to see the introduction of multi-creator system so that this problem can be settled.
Shohei Ohtani
Shohei Ohtani
Just to set my foot down on the whole "New mappers omg"

I started mapping in about 2010 (My first submitted map was in December 2009, and it's since been deleted, but you can pretty much consider the submitting of I.M. Crazy to be my first real map.) Around this point in time, I was probably one of the most disliked members of the community. I couldn't even dream of getting a guest diff. I was mapping a YTP map and most people in the game wanted me out. So you know what I did? I mapped an entire full mapset. Granted, there was no rules about having to have ENHI, so I mapped EHI. Three diffs, all on my own. I put in the work, with the help of some people, to get that map ranked, with all of my own creations. It was stressful, yes, but guess what? It still got ranked, and people really liked it. The cool thing was, people liked it because of MY creation. People came up to me and said "You need to map more maps, CDFA." It wasn't something like "Oh yeah cool Mystearica diff CDFA yeah", but I got to actually get praise for my map. Plus, mapping all of those diffs helped me to understand what each difficulty did. Did it take time? Yeah, I uploaded about 3 other maps before having this map ranked. I actually lost the entire Insane diff when I first mapped it, so I had to remap it again. It took a hell of a lot of time. But mapping the full mapset actually helped out a whole lot. I could be like "This is what an insane does. Ok. This is what a hard does. Ok. This is what an easy does. Any suggestions on how I can make this better?"

Let's take a look at the community. Origami_Munchkin. Probably one of my favorite unknown mappers out there. He likes Owl City. So he chooses to makes maps of Owl City. I can tell he's put in the effort to look at other maps (A lot of Owl City mappers are part of that English Symmetrical mapping thing, and he's American, so you can see the influence), and he's made a full mapset for his full maps. Now he's, after so long and a second try, he's on the verge of getting his map ranked. He's exactly like you and me. He's a guy who likes a song, and wants to get it ranked, so he puts in the full effort to make it happen. He doesn't have connections to get a bunch of guest diffs while he makes an easy, he just looks at maps, sees what people like, tries to implement it, and shows it out to the community so they can give him tips on improving.

This happens really often.

The more time and effort you put into something, the more you're going to get out of it. The more you're going to learn. The more successful that it's going to be. Otherwise, you're pretty much just getting something ranked so you can have a pretty little "Yay ranked!" on your profile. You're not improving yourself as a mapper. Because of that, you're not going to be successful in the future of mapping. Because a lot of people who use that "Oh, I'm a new mapper, I'll only map one diff!" end up becoming those "Oh I'm experienced I'll just make a diff and have other people make others for me since like easy diffs are boring!"

I guess the big point of this giant paragraph is that just because you're a new mapper, doesn't mean you can just skip out on this for "when I get more experienced." The road to mapping isn't one where you can slap something together and have your buddies fill in the holes you never bothered filling. It's one where you're going to have a lot of bumps, a lot of trip ups, a lot of frustration, a lot of issues, but in the end, you're going to become a much better person, and a much better mapper.

So if you're trying to "be there and help new mappers keep the mapping spirit woohoo", then don't smother them in a puffy cloud of "OH YEAH YOU'RE DOING GREAT YOU ONLY NEED ONE DIFF." If you want a new mapper to be good, you need to push them into doing more. Because what are they going to do when the puffy cloud is gone?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As for the rule, I don't agree with the "unless it's the highest diff" clause. Mostly because the main problem is that people map with just the insane diffs and have people guest diff the lower diffs, lol. A lot of the maps that I'm like "fkn fkn" don't do that, but a major issue I see is when do that too, and it happens a lot more often, and with a lot of the more experienced mappers. (inb4 "ur a fkn hypocit cdfhypocrit").

Although there should be a clause in here explaining how collabs will be counted, since I have no clue how to do that.
Cyclohexane
osu! Alumni
4,568 posts
Joined May 2009
Cyclohexane
If a map has 1 difficulty by the uploader and all the other ones are guest diffs, I don't see why the uploader should be the owner of the map. At this point it's a collaborative effort between how many people mapped the diffs.

New mappers actually are way more diligent with this, they make all their diffs themselves.
Saten
Global Moderator
3,863 posts
Joined August 2010
Saten
You know what lazy is?
Copy one part and paste it with a flip somewhere else~

The 1 diff rule is fine imo. I personally like guest diffs, since they are made by different users within a map-set.

Mr Color wrote:

If a map has 1 difficulty by the uploader and all the other ones are guest diffs, I don't see why the uploader should be the owner of the map. At this point it's a collaborative effort between how many people mapped the diffs.

New mappers actually are way more diligent with this, they make all their diffs themselves.
Someone has to be in charge, why not the uploader?
If a single users make more than 1 difficulty (and the creator just 1), then it might be different. But that is currently not allowed.


dkun wrote:

mappers do not need to contribute to others' sets on a mandatory basis. as long as the ratio is fit, then the map is fit for rank.
why impose a rule like this?
this
ritsu-tanaika
468 posts
Joined September 2012
ritsu-tanaika
So assuming a mapper only plans to put two difficulties up for rank, but he/she needs to contribute an appropriate amount instead of completely relying on others. would one out of two be enough or does the original mapper still need to map both difficulties?
tieff
Featured Artist
2,254 posts
Joined March 2009
tieff
I think uploader should map at least 2 diffs, like hard and easy, insane and normal and so on. But if it's 5-6 min song, 1 diff is fine.
ritsu-tanaika
468 posts
Joined September 2012
ritsu-tanaika
i think there was a rule about not having an Insane difficulty without a Hard
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
Topic Starter
DakeDekaane
Take in mind that this won't be limiting the number of GD, as now there's no limit in the maximum number of difficulties to aim for rank, it's just making the mapper put more effort in his own mapset (specifically, mapping 1 diff more).
vipto
716 posts
Joined May 2011
vipto

Kawayi Rika wrote:

This rule is to have any meaning? I think it's unnecessary.
It's not unnecessary. It just prevents certain people (not looking at anyone) from having stupid 1/1/1/1 mapsets with thousands of guestmappers where the creator just maps one diff and then gets his mapset ranked in a short time. And it's there to prevent mappers from being lazy and that is a good thing.

Very good rule.
Support.
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl

vipto wrote:

Kawayi Rika wrote:

This rule is to have any meaning? I think it's unnecessary.
It's not unnecessary. It just prevents certain people (not looking at anyone) from having stupid 1/1/1/1 mapsets with thousands of guestmappers where the creator just maps one diff and then gets his mapset ranked in a short time. And it's there to prevent mappers from being lazy and that is a good thing.

Very good rule.
Support.
It's not unnecessary because it's a good thing, good argument, let's see, if you'll play a map, do you put attention on who did it?, if they're guest difficulties you're not going to enjoy?, if a mapper only wants to do the insane difficulty then it is fine, because if he is forced to do the other difficulties, they will be wrong.
Also, nobody is forced to do the guest difficulties, if they do it is because they want, everyone is happy ..
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