Fix the pp ranking system

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TakuMii
I'm pretty sure that the weighting of each map depends on who ranked on the map, and not necessarily the difficulty. This explains why you can get more PP from older maps and not as much from getting good scores on more recent unpopular maps.
The whole purpose of the performance point system was to be more contextually relevant to the game (compared to the completely farm-based score system), and not to be 100% skill-based. The fact you're #3 doesn't mean you're #3 in terms of skill, nor does it mean that the system is broken. It's just means that you are able to score #1 scores on songs more often than other people. It's working exactly as intended.

IMO, I'd think that it would be more worth it to ask for a way to block #spectator messages if it's bothering you that much.
Topic Starter
thelewa

YayMii wrote:

IMO, I'd think that it would be more worth it to ask for a way to block #spectator messages if it's bothering you that much.
You're misunderstanding. I don't have that big of a problem with the spectator messages in itself, but with people having this image of me being the second coming of Christ because of the pp system.

I rank well on a map, and the reaction I get is "he's having a bad day with osu!"

And how can pp be PERFORMANCE points if I get less #1's than other people (and less impressive top ranks, at that) and I still get ranked way too high. The pp system is as much of a PERFORMANCE based system as is just randomly picking a runner on a track competition and calling him the fastest. That's how much PERFORMANCE you need to rank high on the system.

And before someone says that it's my own fault that I'm ranked high, it is not. When this pp system was implemented I was immediately dropped onto rank #9. I've never been ranked low on this system. I've only played the game as I have fun with it. You could say that someone who puts a shotgun into their mouth and blows their brains out is responsible for their own death, but I am not responsible for being ranked high and having the entire gaming experience RUINED for me because of false expectations from literally everyone.
Shadow
Not posting the following trying to sound sarcastic or anything.

But if it really bothers you so much, why not move along and take a short break from osu? There are ton of other things to do. I've heard that there is a new ranking system in the works, but it might still be a while before it gets implemented. So when you return, that might be in place.

Just saying, don't do something that frustrates you, kinda defeats the purpose of a game right?
Topic Starter
thelewa

Shadow wrote:

Not posting the following trying to sound sarcastic or anything.

But if it really bothers you so much, why not move along and take a short break from osu? There are ton of other things to do. I've heard that there is a new ranking system in the works, but it might still be a while before it gets implemented. So when you return, that might be in place.

Just saying, don't do something that frustrates you, kinda defeats the purpose of a game right?
A game that has such a good ranking system that the players have to not play the game because of it

edit: besides I just took a 2 month break and BAM my rank stayed exactly the same. Only when I came back I was finally knocked down from #2 to #3. So am I to take like a year break or something? I intend to become the best player so that isn't really the best idea. Especially when offline playing is impaired in this game.
Oinari-sama
Maybe this should've been in the Gameplay & Rankings forum instead?
pixeldesu

thelewa wrote:

And how can pp be PERFORMANCE points if I get less #1's than other people (and less impressive top ranks, at that) and I still get ranked way too high. The pp system is as much of a PERFORMANCE based system as is just randomly picking a runner on a track competition and calling him the fastest. That's how much PERFORMANCE you need to rank high on the system.
this.

Actually, the performance point-system is kinda weird to me, because it...I think so..is choosing randomly whats good and bad and throws a certain amount of points out that push you up in the rankings.

Example (my last CtB plays), also adding these flags that are (maybe) used by the pp-system:
- I play a 2 year old beatmap, actually worse (getting an A) and Rank #620 => 20 pp (which is a lot intended to some old maps where I get only 1-4 pp for a good play)
2 year old map: -low contention, +high difficulty, =accuracy (getting near 100% gives more pp, I was around 97%), -online rank (not #500)
And a fun thing I found: "online ranks above #500 don't count", but as stated above I was #620.

- I play a relatively new map (5 months or less) and I play perfect, SS and Rank 80 => I'm not getting even 1 pp.
new map: +high contention, +high difficulty, +online rank (#80), +accuracy(100%)

+ is a positive effect on pp, - negative and = is stated as a effect I don't know how to set.

I mean, I understand the system with all it's weighting and some certain effects and stuff needed for a high amount of pp, but this is just senseless, because I mostly get awarded for my worse plays (like told above).
boat
I've read through it all and close to everything is ignorance and gibberish.

His PP rank does not actually make him a better player in comparison and his issues are personal and got nothing to do with the ranking system, broken or not.
Okay that he doesn't like the attention and seemingly common misconceptions, but scoring high on popular and weighted maps gets you ranked high and that's how it is. Rather than proposing changing the system (which is actually working perfectly fine), ask for a big fucking text on the home screen saying PP =/= SKILL.
GoldenWolf

pixeldesu wrote:

And a fun thing I found: "online ranks above #500 don't count", but as stated above I was #620.

peppy wrote:

pp is currently considering the top 648 scores (7 months ago), and this number will be changing (mostly increasing?) over the coming months/years/decades.
It's probably even higher by now
TheVileOne

Oinari-sama wrote:

Maybe this should've been in the Gameplay & Rankings forum instead?
I agree. If you cannot form this into a clear request, then this should be debated in Gameplay and rankings. Please turn the thread OP into something usable or I will have to move this thread there.
Wishy
pp is wrong from the point it cares about who you beat and not really about how hard it is to get your score. So if you DT Atama [Nogard] but few people have played it because of extreme difficulty then you won't get a lot of pp. And then if you go get some easy high ranked score on a very popular [Hard] you will get a lot.

This system does not even measure performance, it just compares some results with some others and based on pointless information it determines how valuable a score is.

If I DT Airman and beat no one because I'm the only one playing that map then I should still get 4821904128904219 pp for it.
Bells
I'm not saying the performance point system isn't flawed, and I'm sure a lot would agree that something like osutp would be a better system, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the feature request and subsequent rant
silmarilen
what if pp was working as intended but nobody knew the intention?
Aqo

silmarilen wrote:

what if pp was working as intended but nobody knew the intention?
before pp, there were score ranks.
people complained that score ranks were "all about farming" instead of "actually being a good player" which would translate to "doing good plays"
so then score ranks were replaced with pp, with the obvious intention to correct this issue, i.e. to sort players based on their play ability and not based on how long have they been farming easy maps

it only makes sense, that, pp's goal would be to be a system that rewards play quality and not farming

however right now pp is a farming-based system. it encourages to retry easy maps instead of doing actually good plays
so, what did it accomplish? nothing

normally any sensible person would just ignore pp's existence since the information it provides is completely random and meaningless but lewa makes a very good point that a lot of newcomers who have no idea how this game works end up getting the wrong impression from it and being misled.

PP's flaws were known from the very first day it was implemented. "competition on a map" is a very poor scale for ranking considering that the harder a map is, the less people "compete" is on it, since less players are able to play it or even try to.

At the very least, PP should be renamed. What's up with all of the people who say "performance" and "skill" are not the same thing? They're synonyms. This system clearly does not measure skill, so it should be named something else.
TheVileOne
That is one of the most reasonable things I've ever heard you say in one of these debates Aqo. I agree with everything you said. Performance points are indirectly a measurement of skill and competition is a poor measure of performance. pp is essentially meaningless if you don't use it as a comparison of skill. You can't really say that because you have more pp, then you perform better, because it's all relative. Maps are not treated fairly enough to consider who is performing better than other players. It's a very flawed system.
MillhioreF
I think a lot of peoples' issues with the system would be resolved if map weighting wasn't so terrible - nobody would complain if Cookiezi's score on Freedom Dive gave way more pp than HD+DT SS on a random Nightcore [Hard] does now. Decreasing the popularity bonus to maybe a third of what it is now and weighting maps based on the average performance of all plays with a given mod combo would be a huge step forward in my eyes. Of course, there'd be plenty of kinks to work out in that system too (what happens if there are only 5 DT plays with D ranks and then someone gets an S?) so there's no way it could be fixed overnight.

Edit: This is kind of a bad feature request, since it's so subjective. Let's move this to gameplay and rankings - I'll do my very very best to make sure it stays open. Any flaming/shitposts will be wastelanded with extreme prejudice.
kuigliii
Correct me if I'm wrong about what I'm saying, but am I the only one who thinks that the osutp thing is just as flawed as the pp system? I can see why it would be favorable for good players (lets say top #1000), but I just don't see it being a good idea for newcomers and not as highly ranked players. PP is something everyone can work towards, which makes the game for a mediocre player so much more enjoyable. Getting top 500 on a hard map is something even I can achieve and it just feels good doing so...

When I checked my osutp page only 3 of my records were listed, and I don't even consider them my best and I was actually kind of disappointed.
yoyomster
"This system applies the ratings of all top50 scores on each player, sorting them decreasingly and summing them up with decreasing weight. Information about recent changes to the system can be found here."

Based on this information (which is all i could get from the site regarding player rating), it seems equally as bad, but maybe i'm wrong.
Does osu!tp take map difficulty into account? Because for me it's hard to say based based on that one sentence.
GoldenWolf
tom has only access to top50, and yes tp is based on map's difficulty
Tanzklaue

Aqo wrote:

At the very least, PP should be renamed. What's up with all of the people who say "performance" and "skill" are not the same thing? They're synonyms. This system clearly does not measure skill, so it should be named something else.
they are not synonyms.

if somebody on stage performs, then you won't say "that was such a nice skill he showed us today!"

a performance is something you did, while skill is what you are capable of.
Purple
How can anyone say the current pp system is perfectly fine? It's so obvious its not. Ephemeral made a thread asking players for what they think are the top 5 hardest maps in osu!. You think he did that just for fun?

The staff is aware of the problems with pp, and are working to design and implement something similar to tp. Once they have their own difficulty calculator, it wont be long until they implement it into the current pp system.
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