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[Taiko] 1/4 Finisher Usage

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aabc271
osu! Alumni
1,315 posts
Joined August 2009
Topic Starter
aabc271
Split from t/131015
Original proposal by Makar:

Rules

  1. Finish notes
    Finish notes must not be in the middle or at the beginning in a 1/4 or above stream. At the end, finish streams may be allowed if there is a reasonable sound for it and follow one of the following patterns: xxxxxxxxO, xxxxooooX, xxooxxooX
    1. This needs to be more clear, since there are some ranked maps that don't follow the example patterns. The wording is restrictive even though there are similar patterns that still follow the purpose of the rule. Instead, I propose this:
    2. Finish notes must not be in the middle or at the beginning in a 1/4 or above stream. At the end, finish streams may be allowed if there is a reasonable sound for it and have at least 2 notes before it that are the opposite note (For example, xxooxxooX, xxxxooooX, xoooxoooX, etc).
=================================

Big and Busty wrote:

I don't understand why Finishers can't be in the beginning of a 1/4 stream?
I don't understand why short kiai flashes can't be used - they are cool and fun to watch?

I can understand your point but the rules you mentioned should be applied only to noobie maps like Oni's and lower? People who tend to play Ura's will not miss or have any issues with fast spinners or 1/4 beginning with a Finisher.
I guess finishes at beginning of 1/4s are actually harder than those at end, as players will have to continue hitting at 1/4 speed even after a finish
End 1/4 finishes don't require doing so because it has a 1/2 rest after the finish

I also don't understand why 1/4 finish at the end has to be different hitsound ( kD / dK only, but not dD / kK )
As a 2-finger player, kD / dK patterns are actually harder than dD / kK to hit because I have to move my finger from a key to another in an 1/8 time
eg ooooO -> I have to hit 2nd o with left hand by pressing z, then move the left hand to x key to press O, which is harder than ooooO
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar

Big and Busty wrote:

I can understand your point but the rules you mentioned should be applied only to noobie maps like Oni's and lower? People who tend to play Ura's will not miss or have any issues with fast spinners or 1/4 beginning with a Finisher.
The point is to be objective and provide things that the general population can play. Taiko people are not used to restrictive rules and want to follow their own guidelines and use random stuffs. You can say what you have said to standard as well. There are many things not allowed that are playable by the "top tier" players (such as hold notes, 1/8 streams, short spinners, etc) yet they are not allowed since the game must provide for all. This is definitely not the best way to word it though, so maybe somebody else can reply to this who is better at explaining things :v. Basically: Saying that we should allow everything just because the top tier players are capable are playing it is just plain wrong. Your reasoning can be said about 1/8 streams, finishers in the middle of streams, random SV changes everywhere, etc. Keep in mind that this is for ranking criteria - you are free to submit maps that do not follow these rules, but will not be put in "ranked" category.

aabc271 wrote:

I also don't understand why 1/4 finish at the end has to be different hitsound ( kD / dK only, but not dD / kK )
As a 2-finger player, kD / dK patterns are actually harder than dD / kK to hit because I have to move my finger from a key to another in an 1/8 time
eg ooooO -> I have to hit 2nd o with left hand by pressing z, then move the left hand to x key to press O, which is harder than ooooO
Interesting, I never really though of it that way. Imo a player shouldn't be expect to do this even at oni level, so maybe we shouldn't allow 1/4 finishers at all? dK is easier for 4-finger players while dD is easier for 2 finger players. I personally don't think we should cater to one over the other.
aabc271
osu! Alumni
1,315 posts
Joined August 2009
Topic Starter
aabc271

Makar wrote:

Interesting, I wouldn't of thought moving a finger 1/4 would be harder than pressing 1/8. Imo a player shouldn't be expect to do this even at oni level, so maybe we shouldn't allow 1/4 finishers at all? dK is easier for 4-finger players while dD is easier for 2 finger players. I personally don't think we should cater to one over the other.
To hit 1/4 with finish at end, players are required to:
1. hit the 2 last notes with the left hand ( If the stream is odd number. Otherwise right hand ), which is the same required speed to hit a 1/8
( Hitting 1/4 with one hand = Hitting 1/8 with both hands, in terms of speed )
2. hit the last note with right hand ( together with left hand )

1/4 end-finish is easier than 1/8 just because the time that 1/8 speed is required is shorter
But 1/4 end-finish also requires players to hit the last note simultaneously well, or else there will be still no extra score for finish

Although it's possible to ban the use of 1/4 finishes regardless of hitsounds, I personally prefer allowing them instead.
Mainly because the current rules cause some trouble to mappers.

Sometimes the song has a clear music of 1/4s which ends with a heavier sound. In this case 1/4 ending with finishes can be used.
But it somehow forces the mapper to use dK / kD only, which may limit the expression of hitsounds.
I personally encountered this situation few days ago in this map, where kpy asked me to change because kK is not allowed.
( The music is clearly of same pitch, but I am forced to either abandon finish or use unfit dK )

tldr; 100% banning the use of 1/4 finishes is imo even worse than the current situation, and I'd like dD / kK to be allowed too
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar

aabc271 wrote:

tldr; imo 100% banning the use of 1/4 finishes is even worse than the current situation, and I'd like dD / kK to be allowed too
The problem with this is that if it's allowed, then 4-key players will be forced to be able to play in 1/4 on one finger when they weren't before. As I said, I don't really like the idea of catering to one style over the other; since they are both popular play styles. I'd like more opinions on this.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
Finish notes must not be in the middle or at the beginning in a 1/4 or above stream. At the end, finish streams may be allowed if there is a reasonable sound for it and have at least 2 notes before it that are the opposite note (For example, xxooxxooX, xxxxooooX, xoooxoooX, etc).
As I remember xoooX is not allowed as discussed, and it's not listed in the entire rules. As I know it is also stated that streams with 1/4 finishes must have stream length 5 or above (why this is not stated in the rule?), so a better solution would be explicitly stating how the last 5 notes can be for the any streams with finishes at the end.

The reason behind banning inappropiate finishes is that musically they just don't make sense. Imagine something that ends with xoooX. The x in the front, as a highlighting point of the neighbourhood, defeat the purpose of having an even stronger note at the end. Similarly, something like xoxoX, xoxxO, etc., does not making sense for us to emphasize the last note with some previous note has the same weight.

Remember, we are not considering whether it is impossible to FC (under a general frame of mapping maps are always FC-able theoratically), but to see if they make sense with the song.
karterfreak
osu! Alumni
724 posts
Joined August 2011
karterfreak
Imho, there's very, VERY few cases where finishers should even be used at the end of a 1/4 stream, regardless of colours leading to the Finisher...

Honestly I think the xxooX rule is stupid, ooxxX is just as doable for any playstyle. I've personally tested it with 4 finger ddkk, kddk, and 2 finger ddkk, kddk. They can all play them regardless of note colours at the end, some are just slightly harder than others due to requiring 1/8 tapping on the same hand / colour.

A better idea would be to add a guideline / recommendation to not use finishers at the end of a 1/4 stream, but mention they can be used in situations where they will fit.

edit:

wmfchris wrote:

The reason behind banning inappropiate finishes is that musically they just don't make sense. Imagine something that ends with xoooX. The x in the front, as a highlighting point of the neighbourhood, defeat the purpose of having an even stronger note at the end. Similarly, something like xoxoX, xoxxO, etc., does not making sense for us to emphasize the last note with some previous note has the same weight.

Remember, we are not considering whether it is impossible to FC (under a general frame of mapping maps are always FC-able theoratically), but to see if they make sense with the song.
I feel the need to quote this because of how misinformed and hypocritical the first paragraph is in comparison to the second one. Damn near any note combination can make sense (including xoxoX / xoooX) depending on what the song calls for. You have no right to say that it doesn't make sense to emphasize something like xoxoX, xoxxO because of "a previous note having the same weight". Not only does that make no sense as a statement whatsoever, it also doesn't take into consideration the situation of the song at ALL. I know plenty of songs where something like xoxxX would make perfect sense, but it isn't allowed in the current rules.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
Interesting. I would like to see examples, if exist.

Song as a whole is of course considered, and considering the surrounding notes is the basics before you take care of the notes' effect on the whole song. If the pattern is way off the corresponding part of the song it should be fixed no matter how it's fine with the whole song.
aabc271
osu! Alumni
1,315 posts
Joined August 2009
Topic Starter
aabc271

Makar wrote:

The problem with this is that if it's allowed, then 4-key players will be forced to be able to play in 1/4 on one finger when they weren't before.
As I said, I don't really like the idea of catering to one style over the other; since they are both popular play styles. I'd like more opinions on this.
Just saying that 2-key players always play 1/4 finishes as 1/8, and dK / Kd are actually the harder ones ( explained on my 1st post ), so the current rule is already catering 4-key players more
But still, what you said is a valid point. I'd also like more opinions on how others think, esp the 4-key players

Tasha wrote:

Honestly I think the xxooX rule is stupid, ooxxX is just as doable for any playstyle. I've personally tested it with 4 finger ddkk, kddk, and 2 finger ddkk, kddk. They can all play them regardless of note colours at the end, some are just slightly harder than others due to requiring 1/8 tapping on the same hand / colour.

A better idea would be to add a guideline / recommendation to not use finishers at the end of a 1/4 stream, but mention they can be used in situations where they will fit.
Kind of agree with this. I think there's no solid criteria to judge whether a use of certain 1/4 finishes is appropriate, and so they should better be checked case-by-case. As long as they are used in a reasonable situation, I'm fine with that
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar
Well, nobody responded to my request to split so I decided to do it myself; hopefully I didn't screw up...

Continuing the discussion: I think xoooxoooX is completely fine in terms of proper usage w/ music. Many drum-based songs have a k k K structure at the end of phrases.

I think we should consider more of playability as aabc has said, though. In fact, we should never put rules related to what wmf said into the ranking criteria as they are subjective, I think.
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz
I think things like KddKdddK etc, would work fine. Just take the formality of how we end streams with finishers into the middle/start.
But at the same time hitting a finisher spot on is pretty strict in osu!taiko. And messing up in the slightest can give you a miss even. Putting that into a stream seems pretty deadly! (Or maybe I just suck at finishers?) Of course hitting finishers properly is not a forced feature, doing so provides "bonus" points in a sense. Kinda like how hitting every tick on a slider isn't required, but very beneficial. After I submit this I'll make a few test maps and fiddle around with combinations and provide some feedback. I've never had much of a problem with performing the keystrokes to hit these sort of streams, but like I said: Finishers are very strict in osu!taiko so it's hard to do perfectly while streaming.

EDIT: In case no one caught on, I don't support this yet. I'm just putting out a theory and my thoughts/observations.
Makar
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2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar
So apparently 1/4 finishers was used even in authentic arcade https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA8H0mHl8T4 (provided by MMzz)

I wonder if people would agree on all 1/4 finishers being allowed - or at least disallowing two finishers at the same time. Then no 1/4 finishers could be a guideline or something and allow it only if it's called for.

I really have no strong opinion towards one side or the other anymore.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
This really needs to consider BPM as well, since 100 BPM streams with finishes mixed in are pretty damn easy to play by simply singletapping everything.
I'd say limit it to a max of maybe ~120 BPM though, and only accept it if the music clearly asks for it.
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar

Luna wrote:

This really needs to consider BPM as well, since 100 BPM streams with finishes mixed in are pretty damn easy to play by simply singletapping everything.
I'd say limit it to a max of maybe ~120 BPM though, and only accept it if the music clearly asks for it.
Limiting BPM is not a good idea, as many players have different abilities with it. Some are slow, some are fast. Some would find 180bpm 1/4 finishers easy, others would find 120bpm 1/4 hard. If we were to allow it, then whether it is good or not is per-situation.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
^ in reply to that, I'm actually gonna quote your own post since you explained it quite nicely.

Makar wrote:

The point is to be objective and provide things that the general population can play. Taiko people are not used to restrictive rules and want to follow their own guidelines and use random stuffs. You can say what you have said to standard as well. There are many things not allowed that are playable by the "top tier" players (such as hold notes, 1/8 streams, short spinners, etc) yet they are not allowed since the game must provide for all. This is definitely not the best way to word it though, so maybe somebody else can reply to this who is better at explaining things :v. Basically: Saying that we should allow everything just because the top tier players are capable are playing it is just plain wrong. Your reasoning can be said about 1/8 streams, finishers in the middle of streams, random SV changes everywhere, etc. Keep in mind that this is for ranking criteria - you are free to submit maps that do not follow these rules, but will not be put in "ranked" category.
120 BPM was just a random number, but I believe that's around the singletap speed that most players can achieve if they play Taiko for a while. Significantly higher speeds should definitely not be expected from players.
I do agree however that a specific number as an absolute, never-to-be-broken hard limit would be quite hypocritical since the difference between - for example - 120 and 120.1 BPM should not decide if a map is rankable. Common sense should always be applied and decisions must be made depending to the specific songs.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru

Makar wrote:

So apparently 1/4 finishers was used even in authentic arcade https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA8H0mHl8T4 (provided by MMzz)
I'd just like to clarify that this is completely irrelevant. In the arcade you can do finishers just with a hard bang from one stick so it's not a problem at all. The problem here is due to how fingers work.

Honestly I think the xxooX rule is stupid, ooxxX is just as doable for any playstyle. I've personally tested it with 4 finger ddkk, kddk, and 2 finger ddkk, kddk. They can all play them regardless of note colours at the end, some are just slightly harder than others due to requiring 1/8 tapping on the same hand / colour.
Once you get to about 130, 140 BPM that sort of thing starts to become uncomfortable for most people. The rule is designed for how most players play the game, which is with 4 fingers, and the current rules are designed so that the player doesn't have to do said uncomfortable ninja-tapping unless they're doing an unorthodox set-up (like 2 fingers). And it's not "slightly harder" - once you get to like 160 BPM there is a pretty big difference between ooooX and ooooO w/ 4 fingers. Well, for normal people that is. I'm sorry if you have robotic fingers and feel discriminated by this, but normal fingers don't find 160 BPM singletaps comfortable. :/

It can work at lower BPMs, though. It's very BPM dependent.
wmfchris
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5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris

Makar wrote:

So apparently 1/4 finishers was used even in authentic arcade https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA8H0mHl8T4 (provided by MMzz)

I wonder if people would agree on all 1/4 finishers being allowed - or at least disallowing two finishers at the same time. Then no 1/4 finishers could be a guideline or something and allow it only if it's called for.

I really have no strong opinion towards one side or the other anymore.
It has been discussed before that the so called 'authenticity' should have no effect when rules are to be crafted (try to read through t/72569 ), and the song mentioned is a special case even you take the whole TnT song database. Those 1/4 finishes stream is just a gimic, and like some of the stupid acceleration in other TnT songs, that makes no sense at all.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,393 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
I will read the discussion later, just one thing: Would be things like kkDkk work well? I've got a map where I used it and it sounds perfect imo. By avoid of the D it sounds pretty boring and I've asked around if this would be fine but getting "no" as answer.

However, is ddddkkkkdkdkD fine?
Big and Busty
Big and Busty
I still think it should be a guideline not a general rule - taiko is about mapping and playing notes which fit the music. Mapping is an art and ability, to play is a skill. If a skill of a player is not sufficient for the map, it's not the map's fault it's the player's. There is no snobbishness or elitism in my post, I am not saying that maps should be only for the top 10 players, I am just saying an obvious thing; if you want silly patterns - put them into hard diffs. No sane person should put 1/4 Finishers into Oni's and lower - those maps are supposed to be enjoyed by everyone, but if you want it to be applicable to the hardest diff. ie Ura Oni, - I don't see any point of this rule.
boat
2,369 posts
Joined February 2010
boat
Of course it should merely be a guideline.

Mapsets should have maps available for everyone to be able to play, separate harder difficulties should not be toned down difficulty wise for the sake of some people struggling with certain patterns.
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz
Why only the hardest diff? If you use then in oni, or even muzukashii, in a simple format it helps the player learn these type of things, so they don't enter the higher diffs blind and frustraited. Making them special to just the harder diffs is elitist. :p

But another thing contributing to this is the mapper. If the mapper doesn't want to use them they won't. And as it stands for how long this rule has been present, little to no one has used them. So I'm not sure what you are expecting, big and busty, it's obvious the community doesn't really like these types of patterns.

I'm still neutral about them though. They might be fun to play if done correctly, but that is just my opinion. I don't want to see maps being stupid for the sake of being stupid. I personally won't let that happen.
Kokatsu
504 posts
Joined August 2011
Kokatsu
The main problem I see with start- or middlestream bigs is that if you screw up pressing both keys at the same time (bignote bonus), you will most likely get a miss for the following note, since the game will register it as two seperate hits (this depends somewhat on BPM and OD however) and since you can't expect every player to hit keys perfectly, this should not be allowed. Moreover, they overlap notes behind them if the BPMxSV is somewhat low (compareable to reading 1/8).

aabc's argument is totally invalid, twofinger players? If you make your life worse by not using all resources you have available (4keys -> 4 fingers), you shouldn't blame the rules for that, for sure not change them.

I personally see no reason in having finishes in streamends aswell and always recommend to remove them in my mods, it's something unpleasent to play IMO and leaving out the note before the finisher (ddddK -> ddd K) doesn't ruin the whole pattern and is more enjoyable from a gameplay-side, I however know players that really enjoy those finishers.

tl;dr: Current finisher-rules are fine as they are, don't touch them.

EDIT: Concerning the patterns where bignotes are allowed at the end of the stream: I'd rather say that they are irrelevant, as long as there's the final pattern is kD or dK. All notes before have no real influence on how you have to play the last two ones and I can imagine all kinds of patterns that would work with whatever stream + finish at the end, music is versatile.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris

Kokatsu wrote:

aabc's argument is totally invalid, twofinger players? If you make your life worse by not using all resources you have available (4keys -> 4 fingers), you shouldn't blame the rules for that, for sure not change them.
aabc is talking about his own experience, why not? If you tried to play TnT acrade you will understand how 2-finger players think. Sometimes 'using all resources available' is a bit vague. Just take the standard mode as example --- how 'all resources' are defined? The two keyboard key? Keyboard key plus two mouse key? Then if I play tablet by poking+keyboard (-> 3 keys) am I using all the resources available? If I have an extra keyboard (meh kind of grey zone) and not using it am I not using all resources available? I would say every finger config has its own advantage and disadvantage but when playability by general (top) players most of the config would be considered itstead of 'the one using most resources'. Instead, it's 'their best to play'. Actually, 2-finger make sense in reality situation --- you only have two drum sticks, right? :P

leaving out the note before the finisher (ddddK -> ddd K) doesn't ruin the whole pattern and is more enjoyable from a gameplay-side, I however know players that really enjoy those finishers.
One of the solution to avoid 1/4 finishes. Not forcing but I liked to do that.
aabc271
osu! Alumni
1,315 posts
Joined August 2009
Topic Starter
aabc271

Kokatsu wrote:

aabc's argument is totally invalid, twofinger players? If you make your life worse by not using all resources you have available (4keys -> 4 fingers), you shouldn't blame the rules for that, for sure not change them.
Sorry, but I don't think "not using all resources I have" means my argument is invalid
What you said is assuming all players with non-4-fingers playstyles have no right to say for their side of interest just because they're not mainstream
And also "not using all resources" is quite vague. I wonder what's your definition of that ?

Keep in mind that there is no fixed playstyles for osu taiko. There is no rules saying one must play this game with 4 fingers.
Maybe you don't know, but I originally played osu taiko with 4 fingers too ( in 2009 ), but later changed to 2 because I wanted to train hand-alternating better.
And I know that there still a lot of other different styles, eg wmf's 1 hand 3 fingers, firce's 1 hand 4 fingers etc...
Let me quote wmf's words :

wmfchris wrote:

Actually, 2-finger make sense in reality situation --- you only have two drum sticks, right? :P
Are their concerns invalid just because they don't "use all resources" ? Of course not.
They are still part of the osu taiko community and they should have the right to express their point of view :o
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