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Mod Weighting Discussion

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Purple

Kyou-kun wrote:

So tell me of a way you could set up dynamic rankings so they'd always be accurate for harder maps.
The only ways I can think of for doing this are:

1. A very complex algorithm. Impossible; if this is ever doable, we might as well have automatic map ranking. ETA 2030.
2. Delegate the duty to BATs/MATs/new team. These gameplay experts would go by some guideline and give the proper mod score multiplier for each map. For example, Hidden would have a multiplier range of 1.03 - 1.08. Maps with AR 10 would get 1.03/1.04, and maps with low AR (think Dragonforce maps) would get 1.07/1.08.
3. IDK
DeletedUser_613592
z
Luvdic
I wont argue that FL requires some serious sight reading skill that involves everything, even knowing the mapping style, and getting into the mapper's mind, but when you're retrying the same thing for over 100 tries, then it's just memorization, not reading skill
Aqo

Almost wrote:

But in the end, anyone who can FC nomod could accomplish an FC with FL on a 4 minute song with 130bpm. By the same token, not everyone who could FC it nomod can accomplish an FC with DT.
But the path between FCing nomod and FCing with FL is a road that involves training, which is possible but time consuming.
And the path between FCing nomod and FCing with DT is a road that involves training, which is possible but time consuming. (and if it's "impossible" now, just wait for somebody to train for long enough and then suddenly it will become possible)
Wishy

Almost wrote:

But in the end, anyone who can FC nomod could accomplish an FC with FL on a 4 minute song with 130bpm. By the same token, not everyone who could FC it nomod can accomplish an FC with DT.
Exactly. You got tons of examples already where people get FL FCs and they have no real chance at all to get DT FC after a thousand plays. If you can FC nomod then you can FC with FL HD after enough retries, this does not apply to DT or HR.

ErufenRito wrote:

I wont argue that FL requires some serious sight reading skill that involves everything, even knowing the mapping style, and getting into the mapper's mind, but when you're retrying the same thing for over 100 tries, then it's just memorization, not reading skill
Surprise! Most of those pro FL players who are HIGHLY LIKELY to be legit used to play specific maps for ages before getting their FC (as Lybydose's impressive FL FC on masterpiece), not gonna talk about those extremely fishy FL players (pretty much all of them) who get 500 FL scores a day in 3 plays.
Almost

Aqo wrote:

Almost wrote:

But in the end, anyone who can FC nomod could accomplish an FC with FL on a 4 minute song with 130bpm. By the same token, not everyone who could FC it nomod can accomplish an FC with DT.
But the path between FCing nomod and FCing with FL is a road that involves training, which is possible but time consuming.
And the path between FCing nomod and FCing with DT is a road that involves training, which is possible but time consuming. (and if it's "impossible" now, just wait for somebody to train for long enough and then suddenly it will become possible)
The path between FC nomod and FC with FL is not training, it's grinding (there is a difference).
Wishy
The difference is that when drilling a FL score you are training for THAT MAP, when you drill a DT you are improving ALL YOUR SKILLS.

Even if I go play paraparamax a billion times and get FL HD FC that does not mean I'll be able to FC masterpiece on FL in a few plays.

Now, if I get an FC on some 270 BPM AR 9 DT then I will probably be able to FC any other easier DT without much putting a lot of effort.

Sick FL scores are those ones when you FL some VERY HARD TO FC MAP, which don't really happen AT ALL and whenever they do, they are usually done by top players (who are not FL dedicated players) or just cheaters.
silmarilen
if i can fc a map nomod, then with enough plays i can fc it with DT or HR aswell, it may take a couple hundred thousand plays more than to FL it, but it is still possible.
Almost

silmarilen wrote:

if i can fc a map nomod, then with enough plays i can fc it with DT or HR aswell, it may take a couple hundred thousand plays more than to FL it, but it is still possible.
So do you think it's possible for Cookiezi to DT Freedom Drive at the moment?
boat

Almost wrote:

silmarilen wrote:

if i can fc a map nomod, then with enough plays i can fc it with DT or HR aswell, it may take a couple hundred thousand plays more than to FL it, but it is still possible.
So do you think it's possible for Cookiezi to DT Freedom Drive at the moment?
You missed this part

silmarilen wrote:

with enough plays i can
Although you're exaggerating. That is barely humanly possible, but the point is the same, it's all about practice.

The question is just what you choose to value more, practicing speed or memorizing a map.
Almost

boat wrote:

Although you're exaggerating. That is barely humanly possible, but the point is the same, it's all about practice.

The question is just what you choose to value more, practicing speed or memorizing a map.
It may not even be humanly possible. But my point was that if you are at a certain skill level and you can FC a map no mod, it is possible to FC it with FL as well. Of course you'll eventually be able to FC a song that is too fast for you by drilling it (unless the song is too fast for any human to do), but you are actually gaining skill by doing so whereas you aren't actually getting any better at playing by drilling FL.
enik
Why can't you guys understand Wishy's point? It's so obvious. Of course memorization is a skill as respectable as speed, reading and such but it never should go over DT, because those are two completely different maps and there's no way any mod score on the EASIER map version can be higher than on the HARDER one. FL should be more like a little score bonus (same as HD). If one of the two close-skill players really want to get that first place he can dedicate some time FL'ing it instead of fighting for couple of 100s. But for those purposes FL is just too hard at the moment and if one can barely DT a map it's highly unlikely he can DT FL it after reasonable amount of time or else it won't worth the time spent.

So my suggestion is to make FL easier - keep the vision area constant as if x0 combo, the longer map - the harder FL would be anyway because there're more objects to memorize and this way it will involve big amount of reading as well as memorization instead of full memorization.
And decrease the multiplier (don't know how exactly but the way it won't go over DT).

Also you still can go full memorization adding HD/HR/HRHD over easier version of FL alone.
GoldenWolf
>nerf FL

seriously?
enik

GoldenWolf wrote:

>nerf FL

seriously?
Rephrased it if you don't like this word.
silmarilen

enik wrote:

Why can't you guys understand Wishy's point? It's so obvious. Of course memorization is a skill as respectable as speed, reading and such but it never should go over DT, because those are two completely different maps and there's no way any mod score on the EASIER map version can be higher than on the HARDER one.
this is actually a very good point and ive been thinking about if we ever get a ranking system based on the difficulty of the map, it should base DT/HR on the new difficulty, and not add a multiplier to the old difficulty.
GoldenWolf

enik wrote:

Rephrased it if you don't like this word.
>make FL easier

seriously?
Topic Starter
Ohrami
I don't think Flashlight needs to be made easier. Just decrease its multiplier.
Tidek
HD - 0,03x stable
HR - 0,09x stable
DT - bonus depends of BPM and jumps (movement speed) - the lowest bonus 0,06x
FL - bonus depends of amount of circles in map and jumps (movement speed) - the lowest bonus 0,06x

The real problem atm is HR+HD vs HD+FL.

The most funny sentence i read here: "if u can FC nomod, u can easily FC FL+HD any map" - LMAO

eat sh*t FL haters ;3
jesse1412

Tidek wrote:

HD - 0,03x stable
HR - 0,09x stable
DT - bonus depends of BPM and jumps (movement speed) - the lowest bonus 0,06x
FL - bonus depends of amount of circles in map and jumps (movement speed) - the lowest bonus 0,06x

The real problem atm is HR+HD vs HD+FL.

The most funny sentence i read here: "if u can FC nomod, u can easily FC FL+HD any map" - LMAO

eat sh*t FL haters ;3
enik

GoldenWolf wrote:

enik wrote:

Rephrased it if you don't like this word.
>make FL easier

seriously?
There's also non-bold text in my post above, you can read it too. Decreasing multiplier without making it easier would be unfair for people who spend huge amount of time memorizing everything and still get shitty rank. I respect FL plays and understand how much effort it takes to get a good FL score. But at the moment FL stands as ultimate big mod: you go all-in memorizing the whole map and getting the highest possible score or you don't use it at all. My suggestion was to make it more like a sub mod as HD or HR (not on the hardest maps) so people could use HRFL / DTFL to deal with HRHD / DTHD respectively WITHOUT going full memorization but memorize only hard places and the map flow. And you STILL can get higher score involving even more memory skill by adding HRHD.

I must be wrong in my next statement (because I don't have own experience) but I suppose with the current FL state it's not a big deal to get HDFL score if you already have FL fc (as long as you're good at both these mods) because FL itself is too hard right now and requires a lot of memorization already.
Amefuri Koneko
Making FL easier will make it sightreadable and a "must" for top rank, like HD is currently a "must" for top rank on most maps.
enik

Ami Furi Koneko wrote:

Making FL easier will make it sightreadable and a "must" for top rank, like HD is currently a "must" for top rank on most maps.
Yes, a "must" on maps which are possible to FL (not the hardest ones), there're a lot of DT and no-mod top scores without HD. Make it not fully sightreadable but easier so it still will require some significant amount of retries and dedication.
GoldenWolf

enik wrote:

There's also non-bold text in my post above, you can read it too. Decreasing multiplier without making it easier would be unfair for people who spend huge amount of time memorizing everything and still get shitty rank. I respect FL plays and understand how much effort it takes to get a good FL score. But at the moment FL stands as ultimate big mod: you go all-in memorizing the whole map and getting the highest possible score or you don't use it at all. My suggestion was to make it more like a sub mod as HD or HR (not on the hardest maps) so people could use HRFL / DTFL to deal with HRHD / DTHD respectively WITHOUT going full memorization but memorize only hard places and the map flow. And you STILL can get higher score involving even more memory skill by adding HRHD.
I did read all your post.
you explained better in this post, and it sounds like a good idea imo
I must be wrong in my next statement (because I don't have own experience) but I suppose with the current FL state it's not a big deal to get HDFL score if you already have FL fc (as long as you're good at both these mods) because FL itself is too hard right now and requires a lot of memorization already.
Yes, you're wrong here. While FL alone isn't that hard, HD FL is way harder, and even a nightmare on jumpy maps.
and apparently FL isn't hard enough, since people are complaining about it

I think I'm still indifferent about it. DT on fast and short maps is more impressive than FL and FL on long and slow maps is more impressive than DT imo
Tidek

jesus1412 wrote:


Laughed hard ;D
VoidnOwO
:)
boat

Almost wrote:

boat wrote:

Although you're exaggerating. That is barely humanly possible, but the point is the same, it's all about practice.

The question is just what you choose to value more, practicing speed or memorizing a map.
It may not even be humanly possible. But my point was that if you are at a certain skill level and you can FC a map no mod, it is possible to FC it with FL as well. Of course you'll eventually be able to FC a song that is too fast for you by drilling it (unless the song is too fast for any human to do), but you are actually gaining skill by doing so whereas you aren't actually getting any better at playing by drilling FL.
You measure skill like that, but clearly the system doesn't. No matter how much you try to defend your point, speed and gaining what you refer to as "skill" in general will always be achieved by the very same means as a FL FC, practice. Grinding a map to memorize it = practice, playing a lot to get better = practice. This is either way barely an issue because of how much time one actually needs to put into one single map just to beat a HR+HD/DT score, but I quite frankly don't agree one single bit with that one who spent their time doing so doesn't deserve this multiplier. No, it doesn't necessarily reflect skill, but neither does PP or rank always do a great job of it. One who spent their time memorizing the entire thing deserves to get a higher score on this map in particular.
VoidnOwO
:)
Topic Starter
Ohrami

BRBP wrote:

HR sometimes harder than DT even if circle size doesn't count:

Kyou-kun wrote:

Show me an example.
I don't know about you, but... 94,24% -> 97,90%


----------------

enik wrote:

Yes, a "must" on maps which are possible to FL (not the hardest ones), there're a lot of DT and no-mod top scores without HD. Make it not fully sightreadable but easier so it still will require some significant amount of retries and dedication.
FL is fine as it is, they just should reduce the multiplier a bit. I still don't have an opinion on how much it should be, as long as HD+FL > DT > FL
That example proves nothing but the fact that you suck. The top 5 for that map is using DTHDHR.
Wishy
It is true that HR may be harder for most players on very low BPM maps. This happens because how HR affects OD compared to DT, and how some BPMs may be a little "harder" than other ones which are a little higher (thanks to DT). I personally think its not exactly harder but players are not that used to it. Really, who goes around playing 130 BPM maps? Or 150/160 BPM? Most good players just DT those and there are few exceptions where you can't use DT.

Even then, all this logic applies usually to players like me that play high BPMs ALL THE TIME and NEVER BOTHERED PLAYING LOW BPMS AT ALL, if we talk about consistent/very good players overall they have no trouble getting high acc on low BPM maps. I remember someone flaming either Kyou or JAKA about low BPMs being hard to SS and they just went 1 played some low BPM stream maps to prove they were just too easy, and this same thing happened with some speed player too but I can't recall who.

And enik pretty much explained my point, when playing DT or HR you are playing another map, a harder map, which means you may not be able to FC that even after 5000 plays, either because it is impossible or because its just too hard for you, while if you can somehow easily FC nomod then you WILL get FL HD after enough plays, like it or not THAT'S HOW IT WORKS, the map remains the same and all you need to do is memorize it.
Almost

boat wrote:

Almost wrote:

It may not even be humanly possible. But my point was that if you are at a certain skill level and you can FC a map no mod, it is possible to FC it with FL as well. Of course you'll eventually be able to FC a song that is too fast for you by drilling it (unless the song is too fast for any human to do), but you are actually gaining skill by doing so whereas you aren't actually getting any better at playing by drilling FL.
You measure skill like that, but clearly the system doesn't. No matter how much you try to defend your point, speed and gaining what you refer to as "skill" in general will always be achieved by the very same means as a FL FC, practice. Grinding a map to memorize it = practice, playing a lot to get better = practice. This is either way barely an issue because of how much time one actually needs to put into one single map just to beat a HR+HD/DT score, but I quite frankly don't agree one single bit with that one who spent their time doing so doesn't deserve this multiplier. No, it doesn't necessarily reflect skill, but neither does PP or rank always do a great job of it. One who spent their time memorizing the entire thing deserves to get a higher score on this map in particular.
I'm not saying that FL players don't deserve the scores (putting that much effort should reward something), but I'm saying FL shouldn't really be part of a rhythm game. It takes no added skill and pp and rank are meant to reflect skill, but even though it's really bad at it at the moment because of hard farmers, FL just makes the system even worse at ranking players by skill.
Luvdic

boat wrote:

You measure skill like that, but clearly the system doesn't. No matter how much you try to defend your point, speed and gaining what you refer to as "skill" in general will always be achieved by the very same means as a FL FC, practice. Grinding a map to memorize it = practice, playing a lot to get better = practice. This is either way barely an issue because of how much time one actually needs to put into one single map just to beat a HR+HD/DT score, but I quite frankly don't agree one single bit with that one who spent their time doing so doesn't deserve this multiplier. No, it doesn't necessarily reflect skill, but neither does PP or rank always do a great job of it. One who spent their time memorizing the entire thing deserves to get a higher score on this map in particular.
No, just no. Back when I was noob (well, when I was much noobier), I have played some very specific maps lots and lots of time to the point where I could almost FC them FL+HD, and by that time I wasn't even able to sustain myself over 20 seconds with DT or HR.
Wishy
There should be some kind of balance between DT and HR, but to make it simpler:

DT should always beat HR, HR should always beat nomod. FL and HD should be used over DT and HR if you can't beat some score because of accuracy, meaning I get HR 99% and you can't beat me, then you can go do HR HD or HR FL to beat my score without really beating my accuracy. Of course the same would apply to nomod, memorization should never go over skill.

^That would be good yeah, sick DTs would get to the top without much trouble, maps where DT is absolutely not possible would be topped with vey hard HR scores, and you would still get your random FL player every now and then, only thing is now they would have to use HR at the very least. Logically, FL % bonus would be quite small, and Hidden's one would be even smaller. HR SS should be worth more than some crappy HR FL HD 92%.

This all idea can be considered stupid if you think osu! (a rhythm/aim game) should be about memorization.
Bweh
I have to agree with Wishy on this one. Flashlight plays are amazing in their own right, but the problem is that the ranking system is based on skill. If some nut FL's Mendes and another DT's it, there's no question about who is the most skilled in that scenario. One guy memorized a 170 bpm map and another simply knows how to deathstream 245 bpm--something that only someone can do with skill--not hard work.

Frankly, I don't like it. I don't like it when a prodigy brushes aside someone else's massive amounts of hard work and training, but that's how it goes. It's an undeniable factor.

HD is a bit of a different matter though. This is a rhythm game and theoretically HD pushes one to be rhythmically accurate. Only reason why I'm comfortable with HR or DT is because of the approach circle; I know when to hit. HD requires some memorization--true--but it also requires a good sense of rhythm. Because you can't sightread the timing, you have to rely on rhythm skills. I don't think it's as hard as playing hard rock, though.

However, this is only in an ideal ranking system. Right now I think the pp system needs more fixes than just mod weighting if it's going to truly reflect skill.

boat wrote:

You measure skill like that, but clearly the system doesn't.
Well it ought to.
No matter how much you try to defend your point, speed and gaining what you refer to as "skill" in general will always be achieved by the very same means as a FL FC, practice. Grinding a map to memorize it = practice, playing a lot to get better = practice. This is either way barely an issue because of how much time one actually needs to put into one single map just to beat a HR+HD/DT score, but I quite frankly don't agree one single bit with that one who spent their time doing so doesn't deserve this multiplier. No, it doesn't necessarily reflect skill, but neither does PP or rank always do a great job of it. One who spent their time memorizing the entire thing deserves to get a higher score on this map in particular.
Like I said, I don't like it much either. FL players work hard for their scores; I'll admit that. And frankly if we'd stick to the old score ranking this'd be no big deal, but unfortunately your place on a map has a direct impact on your performance ranking. Because this current system is supposed and meant to reflect skill, not hard work.

To clarify, while practice may be the means to attaining skill, it is not skill in itself. The system ought to measure one's skill, not how hard they practice.
JappyBabes

Brian OA wrote:

I have to agree with Wishy on this one. Flashlight plays are amazing in their own right, but the problem is that the ranking system is based on skill.
Wrong.

Brian OA wrote:

If some nut FL's Mendes and another DT's it, there's no question about who is the most skilled in that scenario. One guy memorized a 170 bpm map and another simply knows how to deathstream 245 bpm--something that only someone can do with skill--not hard work.
I'd have thought that learning how to stream that fast for such a length is a direct result from hard work giving them this 'skill' (mashing kb).

Brian OA wrote:

HD is a bit of a different matter though. This is a rhythm game and theoretically HD pushes one to be rhythmically accurate. Only reason why I'm comfortable with HR or DT is because of the approach circle; I know when to hit. HD requires some memorization--true--but it also requires a good sense of rhythm. Because you can't sightread the timing, you have to rely on rhythm skills. I don't think it's as hard as playing hard rock, though.
>rhythm game where your results are barely influenced by your accuracy/rhythm, alright. HD tends to be harder on a typical insane which has a lower than usual AR (that being 8 and in some cases below - e.g http://osu.ppy.sh/b/42763&m=0)

Brian OA wrote:

boat wrote:

You measure skill like that, but clearly the system doesn't.
Well it ought to.
Well my opinions > your opinions, clearly.

Brian OA wrote:

boat wrote:

No matter how much you try to defend your point, speed and gaining what you refer to as "skill" in general will always be achieved by the very same means as a FL FC, practice. Grinding a map to memorize it = practice, playing a lot to get better = practice. This is either way barely an issue because of how much time one actually needs to put into one single map just to beat a HR+HD/DT score, but I quite frankly don't agree one single bit with that one who spent their time doing so doesn't deserve this multiplier. No, it doesn't necessarily reflect skill, but neither does PP or rank always do a great job of it. One who spent their time memorizing the entire thing deserves to get a higher score on this map in particular.
Like I said, I don't like it much either. FL players work hard for their scores; I'll admit that. And frankly if we'd stick to the old score ranking this'd be no big deal, but unfortunately your place on a map has a direct impact on your performance ranking. Because this current system is supposed and meant to reflect skill, not hard work.

To clarify, while practice may be the means to attaining skill, it is not skill in itself. The system ought to measure one's skill, not how hard they practice.
You're right, practice isn't a skill, memorization is. It seems that you are quite butt-hurt about FL beating your beloved DT scores or do not like seeing Cookiezi being beaten by azuraer in any scenario.
Topic Starter
Ohrami
JappyBabes stop
Aqo
this thread is stupid

you're all discussing pointless things

osu takes different skills and they cannot be compared. each skill is different than another and cannot be measured on the same scale

just stop. this will go nowhere. pointless discussion.

and scores will never represent anything related to skill since an 80% FC is worth more score than a 99.9% play with a sliderbreak in the middle. it will always be farming.
Bweh
blargh fine

let's just stick with what we've got now since it's been working that way since forever anyway

Also: Jappy, chill man
JappyBabes

Brian OA wrote:

Also: Jappy, chill man
I just get tired of seeing stupid threads and posts that haven't been thought out in G&R everyday. Time for lock.
buny

Aqo wrote:

this thread is stupid

you're all discussing pointless things

osu takes different skills and they cannot be compared. each skill is different than another and cannot be measured on the same scale

just stop. this will go nowhere. pointless discussion.

and scores will never represent anything related to skill since an 80% FC is worth more score than a 99.9% play with a sliderbreak in the middle. it will always be farming.
i'd like to see osu give a spider web graph-style pp rating
Wishy

Aqo wrote:

this thread is stupid

you're all discussing pointless things

osu takes different skills and they cannot be compared. each skill is different than another and cannot be measured on the same scale

just stop. this will go nowhere. pointless discussion.

and scores will never represent anything related to skill since an 80% FC is worth more score than a 99.9% play with a sliderbreak in the middle. it will always be farming.
You are right.

It's like comparing Michael Schumacher top time on some track to other guy who made it blindfolded while going on reverse after 80000 laps. Both achieved incredible stuff, yet one can't do the same thing on any other track without doing 80000 laps while the other guy will still achieve incredible results in no time.

Is he still active?
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