Well you can already mute the sound effects (including hitsounds which means keysounds too) through the audio settings, but that would make maps like Imperishable Night just unplayable.

I see no reason not to allow us using blank/muted hitsounds. Liese's Piano Concerto "Scream" is a good example of a map which doesn't benefit from hitsounds. Only keysounded piano notes would have done the trick. Don't misunderstand me, I can see where peppy and BATs are coming from and I can understand their way of thinking, but this hitsound rule is not suitable for every map (Scream doesn't work with hitsounds, however, Skalim's The Island is wonderful, but that's only because most notes are drum-based)

If you are disturbed by hitsounds as player, you can skin them out and remove them via "ignore hitsounds".
But for those who want them, we declared every map to have such hitsounds, so every map basically supports hitsounds when someone wants them.
As a mapper, this means that you must use hitsounds. Even if you play without, you must offer this feature to every player - and those players who don't want them, can disable them via skin or via game options.
Else we cannot officially support and promote your map. That are he basic needs to get your map ranked here. It's a fundamental feature of osu! and we want it to be supported on every single map . else we can not consider it as officially ranked map for this game client and ranking system.

For further explanations, read the other thread. I will lock one of these somewhen. Let's await replies.

@Pyra we are always up to help you finding suitable custom hitsounds for piano songs that work kinda pitch-based. Don't say "it can not work at all", if you just consider drum hitsounds as only hitsounds that ever existed.
And when standard can hitsound piano songs on one layer, mania can that, too. Additive hitsounding works the same on both modes. (ADDITIVE!)

Loctav wrote:

If you are disturbed by hitsounds as player, you can skin them out and remove them via "ignore hitsounds".
But for those who want them, we declared every map to have such hitsounds, so every map basically supports hitsounds when someone wants them.
As a mapper, this means that you must use hitsounds. Even if you play without, you must offer this feature to every player - and those players who don't want them, can disable them via skin or via game options.
Else we cannot officially support and promote your map. That are he basic needs to get your map ranked here. It's a fundamental feature of osu! and we want it to be supported on every single map . else we can not consider it as officially ranked map for this game client and ranking system.

For further explanations, read the other thread. I will lock one of these somewhen. Let's await replies.

@Pyra we are always up to help you finding suitable custom hitsounds for piano songs that work kinda pitch-based. Don't say "it can not work at all", if you just consider drum hitsounds as only hitsounds that ever existed.
And when standard can hitsound piano songs on one layer, mania can that, too. Additive hitsounding works the same on both modes. (ADDITIVE!)

Some kind of familiar statement wrote:

Sadly despite the beneficial discussion on these posts by community, I didn’t see any stance change since the beginning of osu!mania. There are 2 of them:
(1) “This is my game, this breaks my rule, so go away”
(2) “This is correct. This is ******* correct. This is absolutely correct. So if you want to break this rule, go away”

How dare you say this on here!
Please at least talk about something benefitial that how hitsounds enhance the playing experience (in this forum, and on the other posts), not to use your moderation rights to lock every post that against your idea.

Or to say,

Loctav's logic wrote:

But for those who want them (majority half), we declared every map to have 7-key-at-the-same-time, so every map basically supports Real rhythm when someone wants them.

Please allow 7key gaming, as quick as possible

BTW,

Loctav wrote:

Pyra we are always up to help you finding suitable custom hitsounds for piano songs that work kinda pitch-based. Don't say "it can not work at all", if you just consider drum hitsounds as only hitsounds that ever existed.

If you know what difference is between keysound and hitsound I bet you won't say such things.
Consult @chonicle to get a clue on how she was managed to split the piano sound out (By recomposing the song!)

You are refusing to understand the logic I am having, you consider getting your maps ranked by us as "given right" to you. Also you are blaming me for playing with words, even tho it's you fighting more about words than actually about the meaning behind it.

As long as you don't even want to understand what I actually said, I am not willed to furthely discuss this topic. You are just twisting the things I said to ridicule it. If that's the way you discuss things, then I can't help you.

Loctav wrote:

You are refusing to understand the logic I am having, you consider getting your maps ranked by us as "given right" to you. Also you are blaming me for playing with words, even tho it's you fighting more about words than actually about the meaning behind it.

As long as you don't even want to understand what I actually said, I am not willed to furthely discuss this topic. You are just twisting the things I said to ridicule it. If that's the way you discuss things, then I can't help you.

Anyway, arguing is not a good nature on discussion.
Let's continue this discussion by benefitial statements.

(From here I would leave the discussion to others.
I believe both of us are willing to see osu!mania being made into a better game mode.
Whatever things are going on, please keep that in mind. )

Loctav wrote:

But for those who want them, we declared every map to have such hitsounds, so every map basically supports hitsounds when someone wants them.

Let's compare the situations.

When everything is forced to be hitsounded, people who want hitsounds are satisfied, but people who don't want them aren't. (The only way to make them silent is a global setting that affects everything, so for example ruins keysounded charts)

When maps using silence.wav are allowed, people who want hitsounds are satisfied because they can disable them on per-map basis to turn them into skin hitsounds, and people who don't want hitsounds are obviously satisfied too.

I personally need hitsounds as I'm coming from standard, and I'd like to have an option to play the chart both ways - how the mapper intended (for fun), and with hitsounds (for score).

Tear wrote:

Loctav wrote:

But for those who want them, we declared every map to have such hitsounds, so every map basically supports hitsounds when someone wants them.

Let's compare the situations.

When everything is forced to be hitsounded, people who want hitsounds are satisfied, but people who don't want them aren't. (The only way to make them silent is a global setting that affects everything, so for example ruins keysounded charts)

When maps using silence.wav are allowed, people who want hitsounds are satisfied because they can disable them on per-map basis to turn them into skin hitsounds, and people who don't want hitsounds are obviously satisfied too.

I personally need hitsounds as I'm coming from standard, and I'd like to have an option to play the chart both ways - how the mapper intended (for fun), and with hitsounds (for score).

Oh I just failed to give up on this thread and went back

I think this is a perfect solution when lots of community members choose it. (Check the poll.)

What we are thinking is not "we are too lazy to hitsound", but "hitsound affect the map in one way or another".
And you are talking about "the necessity of hitsound".
It's simply a two-win solution when mappers can get their map at highest quality and players can have such audio feedback.

We just, as in other modes, "hitsound" the map.
However it is possible to allow us to use silent .wav to imply our thought that we recommend players to play without hitsounds.
If players do want them, just pick ignore hitsound, and neat hitsound would be back.

This is a fair solution that everyone would be happy, both players want hitsounds or who doesn't.

Loctav wrote:

If that's the way you discuss things, then I can't help you.

Are you helping? Are you even listening to those mappers who are making charts?
The basic idea is that this is never a "fundamental feature" of osu!mania: see how many people are really looking forward to hitsound. Nobody says hitsound is not good, but who want it? You could offer it if you want, but never let it be mandatory.

And let's go back to the original need of hitsound. Does a mania specified map really need hitsound? Remember that all the rhythm, melody and flow of the music are delivered by notes and by mappers' organization of their notes, not hitsound. The propose of playing mania specific maps is receiving a sense of representing the original music, not remixing or creating your own rhythm through hitsound. That's the difference between hitsound and keysound: you need to realize that what hitsound is adding things that does not belong to the music. That already violate the "fundamental feature" of osu!mania: we follow the song.

Keysounds are great, because the reproduce the sound you are actually supposed to be playing. Hitsounds, while fun in standard, are rather annoying in mania.
You could impose the rule that everything needs to be keysounded just like official o2jam maps, but I think (I'm not an experienced mapper) that would add some serious amount of work for just a minor addition to the map. Me not liking hitsounding on o!m has nothing to do with laziness, I just think it deteriorates the experience.

Also I'm not gonna vote because I hardly understand the options. Can someone please translate it into proper English? No offense there, I just don't understand it.

Xcrypt wrote:

Keysounds are great, because the reproduce the sound you are actually supposed to be playing. Hitsounds, while fun in standard, are rather annoying in mania.
You could impose the rule that everything needs to be keysounded just like official o2jam maps, but I think (I'm not an experienced mapper) that would add some serious amount of work for just a minor addition to the map. Me not liking hitsounding on o!m has nothing to do with laziness, I just think it deteriorates the experience.

Also I'm not gonna vote because I hardly understand the options. Can someone please translate it into proper English? No offense there, I just don't understand it.

1) No hitsounds at all.
2) Hitsounds are muted by default, but can be reactivated through settings or skins.
3) Keep things as they currently are.

I just have to put this out there. All these great maps with no hitsounds that aren't getting ranked. Are we supposed to believe that they're worst than these 30k ranked autoconverts? I believe not, so why can those... "things" be ranked and not maps with no hitsounds? It's pretty disheartening imo.

This conversation isn't going to go anywhere as long as Loctav ignores every single point made that has the potential of proving him wrong. Though as a moderator I understand how he would feel obliged to uphold peppy's views despite his own opinion. He'd be arguing on the other side if that's where peppy were standing.

Saying hitsounds is the single most best solution for maps and that maps can't be better in any other way is one of the most conceited and closed minded things that can be said. The real issue here is peppy holds ideals that very few people properly understand and they're being forced upon players despite their opinions on the matter.

To me this is the equivalent of a big **** you to all the players who's worked hard and donated money to the guy in hopes to improve this game. We've already lost many great mappers and contributors due to this. We're actually losing more than we gaining.

An other difference with mania to the other game modes is that the community much older than osu! itself. It's not a new community which can be shaped like puddy and forced to comply with everything. This community already knows what they want and if no accommodations is ever made, they'll just pack their bags and leave to where they can get what they want. Right, an other thing other game modes don't have have; competitors.

Personally I'll keep doing what I do and spend the entirety of my time helping new and old players the most I can. But I won't be adding hitsounds to my maps, the ranking system is so bad it's not even worth my attention. I think having my maps up there in the same category as those 30k ranked autoconverts would be more of an insult to my maps than anything else.

Look, nobody's saying you aren't allowed to have that rule. We're just saying that most quality mappers are quitting because of it. You're ruining mania, do whatever you want with it. I hope you're proud of yourself.

You might even be correct, but that doesn't matter if the entire mode is empty.

If this argument is going to keep going like this, it is not going anywhere.
First things first, peppy strongly rejects the idea of a single hitsound, therefore silent hitsound is just going to be rejected in a second
Secondly, xxbidao is trying to recommend silent hitsound, which is a great input on maps, however, silent hitsound can be achieved simply through skinning and ignoring hitsounds.
Thirdly, if hitsounding is TRULY needed for maps to rank, I don't think it is as much of a deal, hitsounding is NOT hard at all, key-sounding is hard since you have to go through countless processing of audio to get there. No one is asking you to key-sound the entire map, just a simple hitsound rhythm will suffice.
Fourthly, if you don't want any hitsounds on your map heard at all, because it is not the intended experience, put it in the description or use "preferred skin" to achieve this effect.
Lastly, if you can't hitsound your map, even with the simplest clap rhythm or bass kick (drum finish) rhythm I think you are just plain lazy.

Why hitsound the map?
I don't know, ask peppy or for the sake of being able to hear what is being pressed down, I have no strong disagreement to why you must hitsound the map, or not to. I just don't think this is a big deal here we are facing, after all, hitsounding is not hard to the extent that you quit mapping.

So players should switch skins every time they play a key-sounded or hit sounded map? Great solution, this definitely makes osu!mania more appealing than it's competitors.

Drace wrote:

So players should switch skins every time they play a key-sounded or hit sounded map? Great solution, this definitely makes osu!mania more appealing than it's competitors.

Edit : User preference will automatically switch it , not much of a hassle

Okay, you misunderstand how this thing work:

- If there is a keysounded map, it is basically treating the hitsounds as "map specific" and overwrites skin-default ones. So whatever skin you use, map's specific hitsounds are played. Map-specific hitsounds are always preferred over skin-specific hitsounds. To circumvent this, read the last point.

- You can put silent hitsounds in your skin. Whenever no custom-hitsounds (or keysounds, which are technically custom hitsounds in the editor) are used, it uses the skin-specific ones -> the silent ones, if you put silent skin hitsounds. Default osu! ones, if you have none in your skin folder.

- If you want to also remove the keysounds or custom-hitsounds (or any hitsounds at all from the specific beatmap), you can click "Ignore Hitsounds" on Visual Settings before the map starts (bottom popup). Whenever you click the "Ignore Hitsounds" option, it ignores ALL HITSOUNDS IN THE MAPSET and uses the skin specific ones (e.g. silent hitsounds). This is map specific

---> You don't need to switch the skin at all, if you dislike additive hitsounding while playing. Just add silent hitsounds or 5 hitsounds that all sound the same into your skin folder. Then you have the same effect. Whenever you want to ignore hitsounds made on a beatmap, tick the option. Whenever only default hitsounds are used, it automatically uses your skin hitsounds. Whenever you want to play keysounded beatmaps, just do not tick the "Ignore Hitsounds" option. Whenever you want to ignore any hitsounds or keysounds at all, tick the "Ignore hitsounds" options.

Loctav wrote:

Okay, you misunderstand how this thing work:
- If there is a keysounded map, it is basically treating the hitsounds as "map specific" and overwrites skin-default ones. So whatever skin you use, map's specific hitsounds are played
- You can put silent hitsounds in your skin. Whenever no custom-hitsounds (aka keysounds) are used, ituses the skin-specific ones -> the silent ones, if you put silent skin hitsounds. Default osu! ones, if you have none in your skin folder.
- If you want to also remove the keysounded notes or custom-hitsounded ones, you can click "Ignore Hitsounds" on Visual Settings before the map starts (bottom popup). Whenever you click the "Ignore Hitsounds" option, it ignores ALL HITSOUNDS IN THE MAPSET and uses the skin specific ones (e.g. silent hitsounds)

I see. Though all my other points still stand and my opinions along with the majority of players remains unchanging.

lZenxl wrote:

Lastly, if you can't hitsound your map, even with the simplest clap rhythm or bass kick (drum finish) rhythm I think you are just plain lazy..

You're making an assumption here.
You're just assuming everyone who is against hitsounds is lazy.
Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe some people think hitsounds don't fit their map and their enforcement makes it lower quality?

Love ya~

Drace wrote:

Loctav wrote:

Okay, you misunderstand how this thing work:
- If there is a keysounded map, it is basically treating the hitsounds as "map specific" and overwrites skin-default ones. So whatever skin you use, map's specific hitsounds are played
- You can put silent hitsounds in your skin. Whenever no custom-hitsounds (aka keysounds) are used, ituses the skin-specific ones -> the silent ones, if you put silent skin hitsounds. Default osu! ones, if you have none in your skin folder.
- If you want to also remove the keysounded notes or custom-hitsounded ones, you can click "Ignore Hitsounds" on Visual Settings before the map starts (bottom popup). Whenever you click the "Ignore Hitsounds" option, it ignores ALL HITSOUNDS IN THE MAPSET and uses the skin specific ones (e.g. silent hitsounds)

I see. Though all my other points still stand and my opinions remains unchanging.

I don't get why we are competing between autoconverts.

Auto converts will be worse than mania specific:
1. Slider ends tend to not make sense, they don't end at a significant beat
2. Notes are randomly placed, you can't have a 7K+1 correct convert since the special key is going to be used as often as the other keys
3. Auto converts do not have patterns that are fun, they are not coded to make running men, jack hammers, reverb notes at the correct time
4. Auto converts do not have correct note count when converted, it depends on the hitsound on the note, if the whole map is using custom hitsounds with hitfinish being the common note, the player is going to have a bad time
5. Awkward placement of notes that you have difficulty with, ring and middle finger 1/8 triplets
6. The only seemingly pattern is the stairs

Agka wrote:

lZenxl wrote:

Lastly, if you can't hitsound your map, even with the simplest clap rhythm or bass kick (drum finish) rhythm I think you are just plain lazy..

You're making an assumption here.
You're just assuming everyone who is against hitsounds is lazy.
Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe some people think hitsounds don't fit their map and their enforcement makes it lower quality?

Love ya~

lZenxl wrote:

Fourthly, if you don't want any hitsounds on your map heard at all, because it is not the intended experience, put it in the description or use "preferred skin" to achieve this effect.

Love ya too

Edit: Have fun arguing, I don't think it is going to come out with a solution that fits best, sorry if my arguments offended anyone, it is not supposed to offend anyone who doesn't want to be :3

lZenxl wrote:

I don't get why we are competing between autoconverts.

Auto converts will be worse than mania specific:
1. Slider ends tend to not make sense, they don't end at a significant beat
2. Notes are randomly placed, you can't have a 7K+1 correct convert since the special key is going to be used as often as the other keys
3. Auto converts do not have patterns that are fun, they are not coded to make running men, jack hammers, reverb notes at the correct time
4. Auto converts do not have correct note count when converted, it depends on the hitsound on the note, if the whole map is using custom hitsounds with hitfinish being the common note, the player is going to have a bad time
5. Awkward placement of notes that you have difficulty with, ring and middle finger 1/8 triplets
6. The only seemingly pattern is the stairs

You've basically just agreed with me.

Drace wrote:

lZenxl wrote:

I don't get why we are competing between autoconverts.

Auto converts will be worse than mania specific:
1. Slider ends tend to not make sense, they don't end at a significant beat
2. Notes are randomly placed, you can't have a 7K+1 correct convert since the special key is going to be used as often as the other keys
3. Auto converts do not have patterns that are fun, they are not coded to make running men, jack hammers, reverb notes at the correct time
4. Auto converts do not have correct note count when converted, it depends on the hitsound on the note, if the whole map is using custom hitsounds with hitfinish being the common note, the player is going to have a bad time
5. Awkward placement of notes that you have difficulty with, ring and middle finger 1/8 triplets
6. The only seemingly pattern is the stairs

You've basically just agreed with me.

^ Yeap, wait no what am I saying, I mean no, specific maps are better, I'm a bit drowsy in the night

So is this OK?

1. We reasonably hitsound the map;
2. We bind a skin with beatmap which has silent .wav.

This make sense because if player want their normal playing experience, they would just switch back to the default skin they have and they would get a neat song with hitsound feedbacks.

Remember, we are not so lazy that we don't want to make the map better in one way or another.
We just want the map showing the best thing what we think with every setting at default.
Like Agka said, in many cases (extremely in crazy maps) hitsounds as a mapping technique doesn't fit the map well due to the difference between osu! and osu!mania (mostly on mutli-lane game concept). Though we would do our best to hitsound the map, the intended behaviour thought by us would always be to mute them (Which is the practice proven by former mappers.)

BTW to have anything on description is nearly useless because many player download their songs via packs or some sites doing nothing with osu!.

Please make a new rule
You must make the map same as Ende.
It's really the best map I seen.

lZenxl wrote:

lZenxl wrote:

Fourthly, if you don't want any hitsounds on your map heard at all, because it is not the intended experience, put it in the description or use "preferred skin" to achieve this effect.

Love ya too

That's a bit of a hack, the intended experience shouldn't be a second-hand thing.
So yeah, that's the reason this argument is a thing.

Love ya.

Spy wrote:

Please make a new rule
You must make the map same as Ende.
It's really the best map I seen.

LOL,he'll lock the post again.

stress

lZenxl wrote:

If this argument is going to keep going like this, it is not going anywhere.
First things first, peppy strongly rejects the idea of a single hitsound, therefore silent hitsound is just going to be rejected in a second
Secondly, xxbidao is trying to recommend silent hitsound, which is a great input on maps, however, silent hitsound can be achieved simply through skinning and ignoring hitsounds.
Thirdly, if hitsounding is TRULY needed for maps to rank, I don't think it is as much of a deal, hitsounding is NOT hard at all, key-sounding is hard since you have to go through countless processing of audio to get there. No one is asking you to key-sound the entire map, just a simple hitsound rhythm will suffice.
Fourthly, if you don't want any hitsounds on your map heard at all, because it is not the intended experience, put it in the description or use "preferred skin" to achieve this effect.
Lastly, if you can't hitsound your map, even with the simplest clap rhythm or bass kick (drum finish) rhythm I think you are just plain lazy.

Why hitsound the map?
I don't know, ask peppy or for the sake of being able to hear what is being pressed down, I have no strong disagreement to why you must hitsound the map, or not to. I just don't think this is a big deal here we are facing, after all, hitsounding is not hard to the extent that you quit mapping.

Oh lZenxl it is a big deal. It violate our basic idea of mapping. That's not the problem of lazy, that's the problem of principle. Now some are forcing us to do that... Nearly everyone who support the usage of hitsound are trying to shift their argument away from this point, they are just suggesting "you could ban hitsound if you do not like"- this is not the about if we like or not. This is about, just as I say above, violation of principle. Please, let me post , I do not remember how many times I post and being ignore by some, that all we should is follow the original sounds, not create and add something new.
And please keep gentle, everyone. This is a place for discussion, not unless quarreling.

i don't know really what's going on, but i wish this new rules will be change again to normal that mapper/modder/player want.

Reikosaka wrote:

i don't know really what's going on, but i wish this new rules will be change again to normal that mapper/modder/player want.

lol

Reikosaka wrote:

i don't know really what's going on, but i wish this new rules will be change again to normal that mapper/modder/player want.

Err... actually this rule has never been changed because it's a general RC that applied to all 3 existing modes before mania (meaning at the time this rule didn't take into account osu!mania). So basically it's just adding a new mania RC (or rather adding an exception to the existing histound-related RC)

Spy wrote:

Please make a new rule
You must make the map same as Ende.
It's really the best map I seen.

+1 lol

Actually I'm going to change my mind on this.
I think additive hitsounds can work in o!m, as long as they are used sparingly. No1 wants to play a stair/chord stream instensive map with bells and whistles at 200% volume on every note as to rape their ears, but I think they can work to accentuate certain sounds. Keysounds are still better though.
Still I don't think it should be a requirement because probably it doesn't fit every map out there.
I'd also want to see a decent ranking system and allow 8 simultaneous notes in ranked maps so we can get some nice LN wall maps. Maybe change the requirement to less advanced maps can't have more than 6 simulatenous keypresses because they don't feature LN walls anyway. I know I'm going OT but I just want to put it out there while I'm ranting haha.

Spy wrote:

Please make a new rule
You must make the map same as Ende.
It's really the best map I seen.

Because being a dick makes everyone listen to you way more.

Loctav wrote:

Spy wrote:

Please make a new rule
You must make the map same as Ende.
It's really the best map I seen.

Because being a dick makes everyone listen to you way more.

I don't want to hear any bullshit.
That is the trouble you made,not me.
You had better reply others instead of me.
I just come here for watching a great show.

Let me quote something for you:

woc2006 wrote:

[17:29] <woc2006> we don't need to talk about sound anymore. I'd already follow it.
[17:29] <woc2006> the new plan is help mappers add sound

The trouble is not made by me. I just enforce rules that has been settled by the developers, which have been claimed as "fundamental"
woc's plan was it to "slowly introduce hitsounds/keysounds/sounds-at-all to be mandatory for mania". I ruined the plan, unfortunately.
But don't act up like that so much. The trouble is coming from your side and your stubbornness to understand the philosophy and need we see in adding hitsounds, keysounds, howeversounds to your beatmaps.

Also if you don't want to hear bullshit anymore, stop talking bullshit then.

Loctav wrote:

Let me quote something for you:

woc2006 wrote:

[17:29] <woc2006> we don't need to talk about sound anymore. I'd already follow it.
[17:29] <woc2006> the new plan is help mappers add sound

The trouble is not made by me. I just enforce rules that has been settled by the developers, which have been claimed as "fundamental"
woc's plan was it to "slowly introduce hitsounds/keysounds/sounds-at-all to be mandatory for mania". I ruined the plan, unfortunately.
But don't act up like that so much. The trouble is coming from your side and your stubbornness to understand the philosophy and need we see in adding hitsounds, keysounds, howeversounds to your beatmaps.

Also if you don't want to hear bullshit anymore, stop talking bullshit then.

Did you see I talk bullshit to you ?
Don't reply me anymore,go to reply others,I'm uninterest to know these.

Somehow I doubt that you did even understand 25% of what I wrote.

I don't see the reason why this discussion is continuing. It's already established that this will not be the case for osu!m maps from here on out. Move on and go make some awesome maps for people to play.