Also, my pattern creativity to map for osu!mania is barred due to this rule that majority of osu!mania community hates it.
Yeah approval is somewhere we come to the same point. Though woc had said that in early development period, I don't know when we will release the approved category limit to a wider range of maps.Garven wrote:
When I say tweaks, I mean that you have to change settings or options just to be able to play the game. Eph already said my general stance, but keeo in mind that this sort of technique is limiting to all players until thet go out of their way to purchase additional hardware, which is something that shouldnt be needed in a free online game.
That said, setting the mapset to approval is a viable option. The problen with the old approval rules was that there was too muchsubjectivity in the requirement, but if ee have sonethung solid as the 7/8 keys at once, its something that yoy cant argue your way pyt of, at least. As for normal ranking, I would still be against it.
You are witnessing "proper review" at the moment.Bobbias wrote:
The knock on effect should be combated by proper modding and proper review by the BATs on what gets ranked in the first place and should not be considered in whether or not the rule should be invalidated.
Restricting a technique which requires non-standard hardware to be able to possibly finish is not destroying the competitive nature of the osu!mania scene - I would argue that it exists solely to keep things competitive and fair for everyone to play. You make a blanket number of assumptions here about what players will play ("they do it foe the ranking, it's disincentivized because it's not ranked") when in actuality, people will play and compete on a map if they enjoy it over any other criteria it may have. That is why Approval is something that will likely be applied to this rule IF and only IF it is ever used in a scenario where it is considered justifiable. That has happened for osu! standard mapping practices in the past, though before the paradigm for approval changed completely. It can likely be established in a similar regard for o!m again if required.Bobbias wrote:
Osu cultivates a system where players are effectively pitted against each other the moment they play a ranked map, via the ranking system. Within a competitive environment, raising the skill ceiling is only a good thing, as the higher the skill ceiling, the more effectively you can rank top players against each other. Saying that within a system, something that "only effects the top 0.1% of players" is a bad thing is ridiculous. The top players are as important as any other subgroup of players, and deserves to have the chance to play maps which test their skill, however good they are at the game.
The other reason I think that your reasoning here is flawed is that if people DO make maps which use all 7 keys, even if they are targeted at the pros, and popular with the pros, they are excluded from factoring into a player's ranking. This has a knock-on effect of disincentivizing playing those maps in the first place, because people care too much about their rank to play stuff that won't have any impact on it.
When you say things like this, I begin to think that you have had 0 experience with actually mapping and pushing a map with fringe techniques through the process and getting feedback to refine it further. After checking your profile, this seems to be the place, and I would highly encourage you to get involved in modding to see how the system works before making grandiose statements about its effectiveness.Bobbias wrote:
I was going to write more about approval, but instead, I'll mention this: the current climate seems to indicate that maps are effectively either Ranked, or Graveyarded, which means that anything that does not meet the ranking rules is immediately lumped in with unfinished maps and maps of terrible quality. This is only tangentially related to the issue at hand, but if we are going to keep the 6 key limit, and Approval the way it is, there should be some better way to separate complete, quality maps which don't meet the ranking guidelines but don't deserve to be lumped in with the rest of the garbage that is the graveyard.
I'm not saying that we should somehow incentivize that sort of mapping behavior, because I agree that the majority of maps should be targeted towards as wide an audience as possible. However, the current system effectively penalizes people for not making a rankable map in the first place, which in turn penalizes people for experimenting or creating unique maps that break some rules, but are worth being noted. If you're some random nobody that doesn't actually know anyone, it's effectively impossible to get an audience for anything you do, even if it's worth being seen.
I invite you to detail these rules and systems and where you see problems with them. Preferably in another thread, or in private messages.Bobbias wrote:
For a game that is community driven, there are an awful lot of rules or systems in place which hurt the community here.
I've read that post.Jarby wrote:
In regards to the non-standard hardware issue, be aware that only 50% of users polled are able to press 7 or more keys simultaneously. I'm surprised the results of this poll weren't mentioned earlier, though 112 users isn't the best sample. Of course, it would be an exaggeration to say that this is alienating half of the userbase as I'm sure many of them would prefer to play with less keys or don't even care for osu!mania, but it does put it into perspective.
Ephemeral,This problem does exist, but maybe mostly not in osu! standard. Just look into a few Graveyarded(Or even un-uploaded) great-quality and hard-to-hell maps in taiko. (Many high-ranked taiko players have already mentioned that to me that taiko rank does not say full ability because extreme maps are always unable to be ranked and HD+FL ability is the key to top rank.) For reference one of examples are Firce777's taiko maps.Bobbias wrote:
I'll mention this: the current climate seems to indicate that maps are effectively either Ranked, or Graveyarded, which means that anything that does not meet the ranking rules is immediately lumped in with unfinished maps and maps of terrible quality.
This is incorrect. We are looking to identify population rather than ingroup percentages with these things. osu!mania is catered towards all users, not just users who select it as their primary gamemode. Hence, that measure is a valid assessment of the general hardware availability for our purposes.xxbidiao wrote:
The percentage is mainly based on who answered the question. besides the low sample amount you have mentioned in your post, the target of the poll itself has a great flaw: It is asked to everyone including players playing osu!mania and those doesn't play osu!mania.
Great quality maps as always, are largely subjective. If they cannot be ranked due to technical issues with their construction, then that is an area for improvement in the taiko ranking criteria which to my knowledge has always been poorly formulated and substantiated by the taiko modding community. Difficulty does also not infer quality and mapsets should always be catered to a large set of players - not just one or two exclusive groups. This is the primary issue that the taiko community has - there are perhaps maybe 3-4 people who are willing to map equivalent normals and hards while everyone else is content to map crazy onis that only 0.1% of the playerbase can regularly score in.xxbidiao wrote:
Ephemeral,This problem does exist, but maybe mostly not in osu! standard. Just look into a few Graveyarded(Or even un-uploaded) great-quality and hard-to-hell maps in taiko. (Many high-ranked taiko players have already mentioned that to me that taiko rank does not say full ability because extreme maps are always unable to be ranked and HD+FL ability is the key to top rank.) For reference one of examples are Firce777's taiko maps.
So whatsoever 50% or 90% or further survey needed, there are a not-so-small group of players who can play 7keys.Ephemeral wrote:
This is incorrect. We are looking to identify population rather than ingroup percentages with these things. osu!mania is catered towards all users, not just users who select it as their primary gamemode. Hence, that measure is a valid assessment of the general hardware availability for our purposes.
+1xxbidiao wrote:
How about this?
-If the map satisfy all other ranking-related content of ranking criteria but not "no more than 6 key at the same time" rule, instead of going ranked, the map should go approval.
-If a map is entering approval category because of going against this rule, the map still have to get at least 2 difficulties. (And all other approval benefits do not apply.)
-(I don't know whether all maps in the same map group (Web entry) must have the same state of either ranked or approved, but if so) Guest diffs which the whole mapset are going to be ranked must not break the rule. (Due to the mania diff going ranked)
in fact I said, avoid it in easier difficulties. ( And peoples, like me, usually like a "piano"-like layout )Sp3ct3r wrote:
tbh, i personally think that people who's complaining about the fact that they can't press 7 keys at the same time are too lazy to map the keys and find the right layout to avoid it. this really limits creativity for some maps imo.
Approval is for marathon maps.xxbidiao wrote:
How about this?
-If the map satisfy all other ranking-related content of ranking criteria but not "no more than 6 key at the same time" rule, instead of going ranked, the map should go approval.
-If a map is entering approval category because of going against this rule, the map still have to get at least 2 difficulties. (And all other approval benefits do not apply.)
-(I don't know whether all maps in the same map group (Web entry) must have the same state of either ranked or approved, but if so) Guest diffs which the whole mapset are going to be ranked must not break the rule. (Due to the mania diff going ranked)
Hidden notes are everywhere on standard maps, many top tier maps have them and they are great. Even one map that peppy said could never be ranked (Freestyler) generated some drama and got to the Best of 2011 as one of the best maps of the year. Don't come and use arguments like "this rule on the other game" because it's not really a strong argument at all.Garven wrote:
Its more of the concept that default behavior implies that you will be able to play the game in that state without having to tweak things. We have rules in the normal game that prohibits that kind if behavior (hidden notes, etc.) and this rule is in the same vein.
woc2006 wrote:
Approval is for marathon maps.xxbidiao wrote:
How about this?
-If the map satisfy all other ranking-related content of ranking criteria but not "no more than 6 key at the same time" rule, instead of going ranked, the map should go approval.
-If a map is entering approval category because of going against this rule, the map still have to get at least 2 difficulties. (And all other approval benefits do not apply.)
-(I don't know whether all maps in the same map group (Web entry) must have the same state of either ranked or approved, but if so) Guest diffs which the whole mapset are going to be ranked must not break the rule. (Due to the mania diff going ranked)
Emphasis mine.Wishy wrote:
I find it funny that this rule exists to begin with. Any rule which has as a consequence mapping itself being limited is bad.Hidden notes are everywhere on standard maps, many top tier maps have them and they are great. Even one map that peppy said could never be ranked (Freestyler) generated some drama and got to the Best of 2011 as one of the best maps of the year. Don't come and use arguments like "this rule on the other game" because it's not really a strong argument at all.Garven wrote:
Its more of the concept that default behavior implies that you will be able to play the game in that state without having to tweak things. We have rules in the normal game that prohibits that kind if behavior (hidden notes, etc.) and this rule is in the same vein.
Anyways, how many high end players are there? Because I get the feeling having to press 7 keys at the same time is not something that happens on not-difficulty-insane maps. Following that logic, and assuming most good players come from other rhythm games where you had to press 7k (meaning they have a keyboard which enables them) I don't get why this could trouble "a lot of people". Most players not being able to press 7k at the same time don't really play osu!mania to begin with (meaning they are not serious, casuals, playing low difficulties), and if they do I really doubt they are on a level high enough to play maps which would include such a pattern.
I don't see why not, aside from whether peppy wants to implement it.xxbidiao wrote:
Or we can expand another category for mania?
real 7K maps != BMS/O2Jam/whatever mapsDJKero wrote:
Just one thing, this rule sucks, needs to be deleted... or whatever you can do to allow real 7K maps.
In our discussion above, we have shown that some simple tricks is possible to make it possible for a 6-key-at-the-same-time keyboard be able to FC some of these 7key thing. (Or Even SS them) without a keyboard change and/or changing their keyboard setup. It's just some bad experience to these keyboarder, but not "impossible", but I don't think this is topic-relevant.Loctav wrote:
I think that there were already enough technical reasons why this should be disallowed.
We can not make people change their key setup or buy a new keyboard to make it theoretically possible to FC it.
This rule won't change, unless someone sums me up good reasons to let this discussion alive.
Bubbled for now, probably going to flame it then.
I still think this is a viable solution to the issue at hand. We should continue discussion in this direction if we want progress.xxbidiao wrote:
How about this?
-If the map satisfy all other ranking-related content of ranking criteria but not "no more than 6 key at the same time" rule, instead of going ranked, the map should go approval.
-If a map is entering approval category because of going against this rule, the map still have to get at least 2 difficulties. (And all other approval benefits do not apply.)
-(I don't know whether all maps in the same map group (Web entry) must have the same state of either ranked or approved, but if so) Guest diffs which the whole mapset are going to be ranked must not break the rule. (Due to the mania diff going ranked)
We are willing to make some other diffs which does not have 7key at the same time, for in most cases 7key at the same time is limited in use and mostly only in insane diffs.those wrote:
Here's a compromise:
If you have a map where 7 keys are pressed at the same time, the map will be put in the approval category instead. However, a copy of the map must be made in the set in which sections where 7 keys are pressed at the same time are remapped for a maximum of 6 keys, and this map will be ranked. Both maps must adhere to all other rules of the ranking criteria.
Loctav wrote:
Imagine someone can only play with a given keyset of a s d space j k l and has no money to buy a new keyboard to avoid ghosting.
How is he supposed to theoretically play every note?
It's not of the "lenient" judgment system. Actually o!m is one of the hardest judgment game that I have ever played.Loctav wrote:
Tricking the input because of lenient judgement system is not valid, since maps shall be played in the way they are mapped.
And I already stated why approval is no option.
Yeah, I agree with you.Sakura wrote:
I think the best compromise would be to turn this into a heavily enforced guideline, from what i've read mania is mapped as if you're "playing" the song with a piano keyboard, so situations that would allow 7 key presses at the same time would be for instance when the song is/has a piano and the pianist pressed 7 (or more?) keys at the same time and the mapper wants to emulate that effect, other than that, i don't see much reason for a mapper to want to put 7 keys at the same time presses.
I listed some situation below, though I believe it can't be a complete list.Sakura wrote:
What makes a 7 simultaneous note press more fun than a 6 simultanous note press?
This is the best argument I've seen thus far. Chord transitions pretty much double the notes for a single tick due to keys being released and new ones being pressed, and it's not uncommon to have 5+ things happening at once.xxbidiao wrote:
2. Slider and normal note mixing. (Like in the topic head itself, example of G59. Two chord overlap with one another on a specific point where some drum hits exist, causing things like 3 slider finish, 3 slider just start and 1 drum hits, summing up as 7.)