We currently have this rule in our ranking criteria in osu!mania:

You are not allowed to put more than 6 notes simultaneously.
Considering most keyboards use USB connections which do not allow 7 simultaneous presses, we make this rule to help more people enjoy the game.

I'm against this rule.
This rule is limiting o!m mapping strictly and it can never achieve its effect despite of how we tighten this rule. We don't and can't satisfy all keyboards for best availibility. It's no good and have side effect, so we should abandon this rule.

This rule restricts o!m maps strictly.
You may not see the effect on 7key maps very seriously(But there are still a few examples). But when 8key come in place and SP+6K is not allowed, these mappers would just go crazy. (Actually many mappers have already complained about this rules in public spaces.)

AND
This rule can NOT avoid USB keyboard beeping by a-lot-of-keys-pressing-together. In other word, this rule is useless against its goal.
Playing this converted map with USB keyboard and you'll easily figure out why.
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/31419 (On Collab difficulty convert map)
And there are tens of maps that USB keyboards would fail.

Everything begins when 4 keys release and 3 notes pressed at the same time.(Or similar things)
Players cannot release their former pressing finger away from keyboard really fast, causing their un-released key press conflict with the newly-pressed key press.

You may say that "It's easy to avoid using 7key at the same time. Just slightly separate these notes it would be OK to press like this."


or

But HOW SLIGHTLY? Actually 1/2 separates ARE NOT ENOUGH on some long key pressing length keyboard to make these keyboards having ability to press these notes perfectly. It's extremely hard to satisfy these keyboards!

You may say that "People may press keys very rapidly in order not to make another key pressed down when the first key is not raised up." But believe me, people would just go crazy to do so before they buy a new keyboard. (They need faster than FD[FD] key releasing speed to do so in nearly every song!) It's unreasonable to force players play super-tricky presses because they are using USB keyboards, right?

You may say that without this rule, these keyboards may be in harsher condition.
Some of them ARE in harsher disadvantage. But do we have to satisfy them all? Some of them are just too hard to be satisfied.
Consider this: "For there are mouse that is very hard to click 2 times in a second (Actually they do exist!) we should ban every 120+ streams. " That is the same logic.

We may have much less interesting thing in o!m in order to support the poorest keyboard. (Nearly every hard or higher diffs, including many conversion, even currently ranked maps, have styles that are not suitable for extreme long key press keyboards.)

One of great example on 7key is as this G59 song:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/85585

At 2:01, there are one situation that 2 sliders are released, 3 sliders which represent a chord group of some synth instrument are pushed and 2 other notes representing strong drum hits are there.
These 5 notes have their own meaning, without any one of the notes, this some fall incomplete.


7key at the same time is seldom used and are mostly appearing in insane difficulties. It is used with great care and every of them are full of reasons. Starters are not going to touch them until they become expert,so we should not worry about overusing of this style and trouble to beginners.

What do you think?

You need to have your map accessible to all players. Isn't that the point? You shouldn't have to buy specific hardware just to be able to play the game.

xxbidiao wrote:

This rule can NOT avoid USB keyboard beeping by a-lot-of-keys-pressing-together. In other word, this rule is useless against its goal.

The beeping is caused by ghosting - no ghosting, no beeping. Assuming I have the right model, here is an inexpensive USB keyboard - again, if I have the right model this is what my community college uses - that does not run into ghosting under the 6 key rule with the default layout:

http://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-41A5289-SK ... b+keyboard

But 7 keys? Yeah, that'd cause the beeping.

xxbidiao wrote:

Considering most keyboards use USB connections which do not allow 7 simultaneous presses

What? I have cheked 3 USB keyboards, 2 of them support 7 simultaneous presses of "s d f spc j k l" and 1 requieres remapping to "d f g spc j k l".

Garven wrote:

You need to have your map accessible to all players. Isn't that the point? You shouldn't have to buy specific hardware just to be able to play the game.

My point is that this rule can NOT help USB keyboard access all maps.
It is really good for accessibility - though this rule doesn't help.
And the accessibility is heavily depending how you play.
With 7 key at the same time press, A USB kb player can press the first 6 notes and very tricky and fastly release the 6 notes and hit the last note in 10ms causing everything goes 300g well. Can you say this is available to every player?
So it's just a selection between OK keyboards and tricky playing. Other than this rule, the game itself already make players going mad with these keyboards. So there are really no point to support these keyboards - they may just consider changing a keyboard other than practice for tens of years for this human-impossible move.

Ekaru wrote:

xxbidiao wrote:

This rule can NOT avoid USB keyboard beeping by a-lot-of-keys-pressing-together. In other word, this rule is useless against its goal.

The beeping is caused by ghosting - no ghosting, no beeping. Assuming I have the right model, here is an inexpensive USB keyboard - again, if I have the right model this is what my community college uses - that does not run into ghosting under the 6 key rule with the default layout:

http://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-41A5289-SK ... b+keyboard

But 7 keys? Yeah, that'd cause the beeping.

Though ghosting may cause this problem, I'm talking about a briefier situation when you ACTUALLY press 7 key but you are not willing to do that. (For ghosting keyboard, this may be easier to occur.)

The current problem the ghosting keyboards have (with the current rules) is that you need to release quickly some keys in order to press all the notes correctly, depending in how fast the chart is. With a very fast chart (300bpm) and with notes separated by 1/4, the time a player has to release the keys is about ~45ms (in the case of pressing 3 keys and then having to press 4 different keys) to be able to press everything. With practice, this is possible (though it would be much easier having a non-ghosting keyboard).

If we removed the rule, there would be an ever harsher disadvantage for ghosting keyboards. If you need to press 7 keys at the same time, you would need to press 6 keys first, release them extremely quickly (about 10ms), and then press the remaining key (also you can press 1 key first, and then 6, or any other combination). This is more confusing and harder to do than the previous case. I doubt any player would do this consistently.

So you propose we force players the play the game incorrectly with an unnecessary technique, because they don't have hardware?

MMzz wrote:

So you propose we force players the play the game incorrectly with an unnecessary technique, because they don't have hardware?

Of course we should not force players to do that.
These tricky playing technique is some examples where this rule is obeyed but terrible things happened.

And, of course we shuold not blame players who can't release their fingers enough fast to perform these tricky plays, right?

My point is that it's really hard to satisfy every keyboards, and this rule can never make them happy.

Full Tablet wrote:

The current problem the ghosting keyboards have (with the current rules) is that you need to release quickly some keys in order to press all the notes correctly, depending in how fast the chart is. With a very fast chart (300bpm) and with notes separated by 1/4, the time a player has to release the keys is about ~45ms (in the case of pressing 3 keys and then having to press 4 different keys) to be able to press everything. With practice, this is possible (though it would be much easier having a non-ghosting keyboard).

If we removed the rule, there would be an ever harsher disadvantage for ghosting keyboards. If you need to press 7 keys at the same time, you would need to press 6 keys first, release them extremely quickly (about 10ms), and then press the remaining key (also you can press 1 key first, and then 6, or any other combination). This is more confusing and harder to do than the previous case. I doubt any player would do this consistently.

They ARE in harsher disadvantage. But do we have to satisfy them all? Some of them are just too hard to be satisfied.
Consider this: "For there are mouse that is very hard to click 2 times in a second (Actually they do exist!) we should ban every 120+ streams. " That is the same logic.

It is always a good thought to make best availibility, but sometimes it is unreasonable.

Your arguments make sense and the examples in OP do have a point, but I don't think 7 simultaneous keypresses should be allowed. Gameplay-wise it makes sense, but then again it's really unfair to some people. (most people?)

Just call it simplifying and leave that one key out, we regular players will never even notice.

BRBP wrote:

Your arguments make sense and the examples in OP do have a point, but I don't think 7 simultaneous keypresses should be allowed. Gameplay-wise it makes sense, but then again it's really unfair to some people. (most people?)

Just call it simplifying and leave that one key out, we regular players will never even notice.

This would be only on several highest difficulties, and not many maps are going to use this technique for a few usage of them in the map may easily cause overmapping.

The few number of these maps make them even possible to form an approved category like in osu!

At the very least, the maximum simultaneous keys pressed in the map should be put in the beatmap description.

Jarby wrote:

At the very least, the maximum simultaneous keys pressed in the map should be put in the beatmap description.

I agree with that. Giving a warning is OK, and this may tell the mappers not to overuse it for you have to mention that.
I'm even considering making them approved as a warning signal, but peppy may never agree with that

xxbidiao wrote:

I'm even considering making them approved as a warning signal, but peppy may never agree with that

woc agrees with that, though. p/1956263

woc2006 wrote:

7 keys the same time = approved
There's no different between ranked and approved in score/ranking, but the app status tell you everything in the map means challenge, challenge to your skill and your keyboard.

Garven wrote:

You need to have your map accessible to all players. Isn't that the point? You shouldn't have to buy specific hardware just to be able to play the game.

pretty much that, maybe add some guideline/recommendation that limit the maximum number of keys-at-the same time in easier difficulties... since some keyboards have ghosting enabled at already at 3-4 keys...
buying new hardware to just play easier diffs is even worsier..

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

Garven wrote:

You need to have your map accessible to all players. Isn't that the point? You shouldn't have to buy specific hardware just to be able to play the game.

pretty much that, maybe add some guideline/recommendation that limit the maximum number of keys-at-the same time in easier difficulties... since some keyboards have ghosting enabled at already at 3-4 keys...
buying new hardware to just play easier diffs is even worsier..

keys-at-the-same-time are extremely rare in easy difficulties and actually mappers are going to handle it well because of the mechanism used to make o!m maps. (If there are no sound, there are no notes.)
Besides, you may try modify your keyboard layout to support 6 key hits. (Sometimes it may be hard to find such layout, but getting 4 keys at the same time working may solve nearly every note style until you decided to try insane.)

Its more of the concept that default behavior implies that you will be able to play the game in that state without having to tweak things. We have rules in the normal game that prohibits that kind if behavior (hidden notes, etc.) and this rule is in the same vein.

Garven wrote:

Its more of the concept that default behavior implies that you will be able to play the game in that state without having to tweak things. We have rules in the normal game that prohibits that kind if behavior (hidden notes, etc.) and this rule is in the same vein.

I don't know what do you mean by "without having to tweak things". Allowing 7keys are a bit different from hidden notes. As said in my former example, you can't just blame 120+ bpm streams "normal plays" because of some weak mouses have to "tweak things" to do so.
In current rule, these maps are not even going to be approved. I feel making these maps going approved may be a great solution.

Sp3ct3r wrote:

tbh, i personally think that people who's complaining about the fact that they can't press 7 keys at the same time are too lazy to map the keys and find the right layout to avoid it. this really limits creativity for some maps imo.

Well, I'm not lazy. I've bought (wireless, blame me, but I bought it cause I like to lay on my coach), Microsoft Desktop Wireless 4000 (or 2000 i don't remember now, because I'm not at home atm), and it allows me to hit MAX of 6 keys. Independently of what I press. It's probably limited at hardware level. I've spent almost 20 $ (Well, in poland it's very much - because our minimum salary is somewhere at 1300 PLN - about 425 $). I won't buy even more expansive keyboard, just to be able to FC some things.

@xxbidiao Your argument with "former example, you can't just blame 120+ bpm streams "normal plays" because of some weak mouses have to "tweak things" to do so." Is just stupid. Why? Because I'm mouse only players, and with that, and some practice I'm able to do freedom dive [Another] streams. And hardware is not limiting me here, but my personal skill does.

Anyway, I'm not against removing this rule, but I won't support it.

Does this rule also not allow something like this?



I think even if you can only press 6 keys at once you can do something like this without a problem.
Or any other variation with at least 1 hold note

Depending on your keyboard and keys, if your keyboard can't hold all 7 keys at the same time, it wont be able to press all those 7 even if you were holding some for some time.

Technically you don't hit 7 simultaneously in that setup because you can let go of the holds and hit that single note instead of hitting that single and then letting go. Like you should anyway.

I don't see a problem with that even though generally I'm against 7.

Hanyuu wrote:

Does this rule also not allow something like this?



I think even if you can only press 6 keys at once you can do something like this without a problem.
Or any other variation with at least 1 hold note

This one is further explained by rule as "not allowed." Though most mappers are mostly complained on disallow of this pattern.