This will be cool as guideline. Overmap parts can be quite enjoyable if done well so I think this should be decided from case to case.ztrot wrote:
All hitcircles and the starting point of any sliders should be snapped to be a beat in the music. Adding hitobjects where there is no musical cue to justify them can result in poor quality maps.I'm suggesting this All hitcircles and sliders including ends should be snapped to be a beat in the music. Adding hitobjects where there is no musical cue to justify them can result in poor quality maps.
Thoughts lets get this wrapped up and shipped out.
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[New Rule] Overmapping
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Should not must there is a large differenceKodora wrote:
But Charles already explained why ends of sliders should be exceptions:Charles445 wrote:
The reasoning behind this is, hitcircles and the starts of sliders are the objects in the game that require the player to press down on time. Spinners and the end of sliders don't require a knowledge of the beat beforehand as they both involve keeping the already pressed button held down.
I think we should at least allow occasional silencing of slider ends. I sometimes like ending a map (or entering a break) on a slider with a silenced end, for example, if there is a hold note where music drops off very suddenly and a spinner would be too short.
Then again, I've played some maps where silenced slider ends really bugged me.
Then again, I've played some maps where silenced slider ends really bugged me.
Kodora
It is already allowed, isn't it?Kytoxid wrote:
I think we should at least allow occasional silencing of slider ends. I sometimes like ending a map (or entering a break) on a slider with a silenced end, for example, if there is a hold note where music drops off very suddenly and a spinner would be too short.
Then again, I've played some maps where silenced slider ends really bugged me.
yeah so really all we are doing is closing the book on this and making it official
It is. Check t/149154Kodora wrote:
It is already allowed, isn't it?Kytoxid wrote:
I think we should at least allow occasional silencing of slider ends. I sometimes like ending a map (or entering a break) on a slider with a silenced end, for example, if there is a hold note where music drops off very suddenly and a spinner would be too short.
Then again, I've played some maps where silenced slider ends really bugged me.
What about this wording as a guideline:
All hitcircles and the starting point of any sliders should be snapped to be a beat in the music. Adding hitobjects where there is no musical cue to justify them can result in poor quality maps.
All hitcircles and sliders including ends should be snapped to be a beat in the music. Adding hitobjects where there is no musical cue to justify them can result in poor quality maps.
that should be the proper guideline. lets get that done.
that should be the proper guideline. lets get that done.
What's the point of a guideline that says pretty much nothing? I mean you know how some overmapped maps may look/feel like shit to some people while they can be extremely good/high quality/whatever you call it to some others.
I don't mean to say that the guideline you typed is wrong or anything, but I don't see it doing anything at all other than stating the obvious.
I don't mean to say that the guideline you typed is wrong or anything, but I don't see it doing anything at all other than stating the obvious.
All hitcircles and sliders including ends should be snapped to a beat in the music. Adding hitobjects where there is no musical cue to justify them can result in poor quality maps.
^ fixed a grammatical issue.
Wouldn't Hit objects cover both circles and sliders? I'm not sure about mentioning slider ends in the guideline. It is a very common practice to end a slider before the next sound even if the sound doesn't naturally end there. Also you don't need a musical cue to correctly end a slider. The second statement doesn't apply to slider ends, leaving no justification to why a slider end needs to be snapped to a beat in music.
I have to agree with Wishy.The problem is not that objects are not mapped to sounds in music. These issues get weeded out during the modding process anyways. The problem is that jumps in intensity and sudden shifts in the music sometimes get poorly translated into playable patterns or that the patterns themselves take precedence over the music. For the type of player who plays streamy maps, audio cues aren't that important. There is not enough time to process the music when playing a very fast death stream. The key to playing any map is developing high dexterity and muscle memory. The fingers repeat the motions without needing the mind to think about each motion.
A couple factors influence how bothersome an overmapped rhythm is. The less busy the song is, the more noticeable it will be. Less busy songs influence players to rely more on audio cues or the audio cues present in the song become more distracting to the player. A good way to avoid this kind of distraction is by limiting the reaction time of the player by increasing the AR. As long as the player is focused on hitting the patterns and not listening to the music, overmapped patterns shouldn't matter in most cases. Increasing difficulty settings changes the intensity of the map. The downside to this is that using an intensity that doesn't suit the map very well can result in a degradation of quality. The mapper is responsible for finding the right balance of intensity and rhythm for his map. No guideline will express this more clearly.
^ fixed a grammatical issue.
Wouldn't Hit objects cover both circles and sliders? I'm not sure about mentioning slider ends in the guideline. It is a very common practice to end a slider before the next sound even if the sound doesn't naturally end there. Also you don't need a musical cue to correctly end a slider. The second statement doesn't apply to slider ends, leaving no justification to why a slider end needs to be snapped to a beat in music.
I have to agree with Wishy.The problem is not that objects are not mapped to sounds in music. These issues get weeded out during the modding process anyways. The problem is that jumps in intensity and sudden shifts in the music sometimes get poorly translated into playable patterns or that the patterns themselves take precedence over the music. For the type of player who plays streamy maps, audio cues aren't that important. There is not enough time to process the music when playing a very fast death stream. The key to playing any map is developing high dexterity and muscle memory. The fingers repeat the motions without needing the mind to think about each motion.
A couple factors influence how bothersome an overmapped rhythm is. The less busy the song is, the more noticeable it will be. Less busy songs influence players to rely more on audio cues or the audio cues present in the song become more distracting to the player. A good way to avoid this kind of distraction is by limiting the reaction time of the player by increasing the AR. As long as the player is focused on hitting the patterns and not listening to the music, overmapped patterns shouldn't matter in most cases. Increasing difficulty settings changes the intensity of the map. The downside to this is that using an intensity that doesn't suit the map very well can result in a degradation of quality. The mapper is responsible for finding the right balance of intensity and rhythm for his map. No guideline will express this more clearly.
so ultimately, what can we achieve via the ranking criteria to sufficiently address this problem? there has been marginal discussion about what constitutes overmapping and how to avoid/achieve it, but very little on actually introducing measures to combat it or prevent it from happening.
Topic Starter
After thinking about it for a couple months the main problem I with overmapping isn't that it doesn't exist in the song, it's if the overmapping causes the map to be hard to follow rhythmically.
For instance, a song with a bunch of 1/2 can usually have a short stream in there for flair and the player is adept enough to simply add a click in between the 1/2. That's why triple hit stacks are so common.
Of course something like that wouldn't work as a rule as it is a case by case basis, but I'm not sure a rule would even work at this point.
For instance, a song with a bunch of 1/2 can usually have a short stream in there for flair and the player is adept enough to simply add a click in between the 1/2. That's why triple hit stacks are so common.
Of course something like that wouldn't work as a rule as it is a case by case basis, but I'm not sure a rule would even work at this point.
If you ask me, the most effective course of action is to detect potential cases through algorithms in the editor. There are certain qualities that most overmapped patterns have in common that are very abstract. If the game could actively detect them and present them in aimod similar to how aimod used to list difficulty specific distance snap changes.
Here are some qualities that overmapped or at least poorly thought out patterns often share.
1. Sudden increases in note density. A pattern might be overmapped if there is a dramatic increase in intensity or note density after an extended period of benign rhythm.
2. A pattern may be overmapped if 1/8th, 1/16th, or 1/12th ticks are used. Changing to 1/6th in a 1/4th measure section may indicate an overmapped pattern.
3. AR 9 in a song under 130 bpm.
4. AR 10 used in a song under 180 BPM
5. A slow song with fast slider velocity.
6. A pattern that contains jumps spaced much wider than the average deviation in spacing. In other words extreme outliers may be overmapped.
7. Streams that exceed 20 seconds may be overmapped.
There are plenty of patterns that aren't overmapped that fit into these categories. There's no way to single out just the overmapped patterns. It's subjective. It may be overmapped or it may not be in most non extreme cases.
Here are some qualities that overmapped or at least poorly thought out patterns often share.
1. Sudden increases in note density. A pattern might be overmapped if there is a dramatic increase in intensity or note density after an extended period of benign rhythm.
2. A pattern may be overmapped if 1/8th, 1/16th, or 1/12th ticks are used. Changing to 1/6th in a 1/4th measure section may indicate an overmapped pattern.
3. AR 9 in a song under 130 bpm.
4. AR 10 used in a song under 180 BPM
5. A slow song with fast slider velocity.
6. A pattern that contains jumps spaced much wider than the average deviation in spacing. In other words extreme outliers may be overmapped.
7. Streams that exceed 20 seconds may be overmapped.
There are plenty of patterns that aren't overmapped that fit into these categories. There's no way to single out just the overmapped patterns. It's subjective. It may be overmapped or it may not be in most non extreme cases.
Bump. There's 20 pages of discussion here that doesn't seem to have generated much in terms of what we can actually do in the RC.
I don't think there's value in introducing an item in the RC to explicitly state that objects should be placed to the beat. As people have stated, sometimes there is value in overmapping a triplet here or there, and sometimes there are more intuitive rhythms that play better, while accompanying the music instead of following it, and we should leave this subjective matter to the modding process.
TVO's ideas above are interesting, but outside the scope of the RC as well. Thus, I'm in favour of a "no change" here. Anyone else care to chime in?
I don't think there's value in introducing an item in the RC to explicitly state that objects should be placed to the beat. As people have stated, sometimes there is value in overmapping a triplet here or there, and sometimes there are more intuitive rhythms that play better, while accompanying the music instead of following it, and we should leave this subjective matter to the modding process.
TVO's ideas above are interesting, but outside the scope of the RC as well. Thus, I'm in favour of a "no change" here. Anyone else care to chime in?
Can we surely agree that "bad overmapping" is that which detracts from the feel of a section, or otherwise makes it unreasonably hard or unexpected? These are all "subjective" in that some people enjoy them, but they're plenty objective if the mapper couldn't explain a deep connection with the music.
To clarify, see my sig, see those maps with pulse-crippling triples and see 'End Time'--a mapset which has one MP3 without sextuplets and then an [Insane] MP3 with them out of buttfuck nowhere. Nothing in the other diffs, the song until that point or the map's presentation implies them in the slightest. That's the crux of the problem, yet people will always find some way to weasel out of fixing that kind of error. This is why a strict, clear guideline would at least provide a basis to discourage this particular quirk.
May I also remind everybody that "the obvious" basically needs to be rammed down people's throats? It's as if some people don't use their brains when they map.
To clarify, see my sig, see those maps with pulse-crippling triples and see 'End Time'--a mapset which has one MP3 without sextuplets and then an [Insane] MP3 with them out of buttfuck nowhere. Nothing in the other diffs, the song until that point or the map's presentation implies them in the slightest. That's the crux of the problem, yet people will always find some way to weasel out of fixing that kind of error. This is why a strict, clear guideline would at least provide a basis to discourage this particular quirk.
May I also remind everybody that "the obvious" basically needs to be rammed down people's throats? It's as if some people don't use their brains when they map.
Kodora
Having a guideline would make it easier to mod it out. That's why Charles was pushing it in the first place. You know as well as I that people love to use the "it's not in the guidelines" excuse.Kodora wrote:
Bad way of overmapping should be judged case by case & fixed while modding. Supporting as no change.
Have we actually progressed to that point? :O Back in my day they just went, "LALALA IT'S JUST A GUIDELINE LALALA!"D33d wrote:
Having a guideline would make it easier to mod it out. That's why Charles was pushing it in the first place. You know as well as I that people love to use the "it's not in the guidelines" excuse.Kodora wrote:
Bad way of overmapping should be judged case by case & fixed while modding. Supporting as no change.
They need a good smack across the lips, but if it's not even a guideline, mappers will say "LALALA IT'S NOT EVEN A GUIDELINE LALALA!"Ekaru wrote:
Have we actually progressed to that point? :O Back in my day they just went, "LALALA IT'S JUST A GUIDELINE LALALA!"D33d wrote:
Having a guideline would make it easier to mod it out. That's why Charles was pushing it in the first place. You know as well as I that people love to use the "it's not in the guidelines" excuse.
Kodora
There are was lots of examples of good & bad overmapping, but noone sum it up to something with what everyone can agree. How can we add to RC something like that?D33d wrote:
Having a guideline would make it easier to mod it out. That's why Charles was pushing it in the first place. You know as well as I that people love to use the "it's not in the guidelines" excuse.Kodora wrote:
Bad way of overmapping should be judged case by case & fixed while modding. Supporting as no change.
Still support as "no change".
It would be a guideline and it would say something the lines of "don't map what isn't there, as it would play differently to what's expected by listening to the music." Still not a difficult or nebulous concept to impose on mappers.Kodora wrote:
There are was lots of examples of good & bad overmapping, but noone sum it up to something with what everyone can agree. How can we add to RC something like that?D33d wrote:
Having a guideline would make it easier to mod it out. That's why Charles was pushing it in the first place. You know as well as I that people love to use the "it's not in the guidelines" excuse.
Still support as "no change".
i don't see why we can't stick in the rules and still work through a case by case basis. afterall, we already have rules which leave some amount of room for interpretation, which include:
ranking criteria btw for lazy people: https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Ranking_criteria
- Do not overuse kiai time.
- The mapset must have a well-designed spread of difficulties.
ranking criteria btw for lazy people: https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Ranking_criteria
SPOILER
it's a rule we have that gives us a solid idea of what we can and can't do while still leaving room for some interpretation and subjectivity. i think in terms of overmapping, it'd be best if we word the rule in a style similar to this one here.Hitsounds from notes and sliders must be audible. These provide feedback for the player, and having them silent in a rhythm game doesn't make much sense. If you don't like the default sounds, then find replacements rather than silencing notes. You can use hitsounds from the Custom Hitsound Library or easily find others online. Lowering the volume of a few notes to provide a dampened effect is usually fine, but complete silence is always unacceptable. The end of a spinner (or even the entire spinner) the sliding sound of a slider, and the end of a slider can be silent, but only do it if it makes sense. Finally, you cannot silence both slider ticks and slider slides together.
All hitcircles and the starting point of any sliders should be snapped to be a beat in the music. Slider end points should be snapped to a beat in the music, or the end of a prolonged note where appropriate. Adding hitobjects where there is no musical cue to justify them can result in confusing patterns which are difficult to follow and incongruent with the backing track.The above is being added as a guideline as previously discussed.
Marking as added.