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posted
Guys guys let us remember here what Charles wanted in the first place.

Charles wants what the definitive meaning is of overmapping to be more lenient. He is not, per se, trying to say that overmapping is bad yada yada, but rather trying to get both sides of the argument to come to terms. This is because unranking of maps recently for reasons outside of ranking criteria has occured really frequently.

We're not here to try to argue with each other about mapping ideals.

...

But still

NatsumeRin wrote:



People, aka, well, players.
posted
MAP 80 BPM WITH 1/16 DEATH STREAMS
posted
Seems no one saw it so I post again

Charles' position:Overmap is not allowed in any time.(Overmap's definition is any slider start/end/circle/spinner end not touch any sound in music even it's a 1/2 or 1/1)

Community's position:Overmap is okay if it is
1.an Insane diff
2.Fun/Fit(subjective thing)

Seems that alomst (I am not dare to say exactly) no one agrees with charles' rule which doesn't allow mappers do any overmap.
posted

nold_1702 wrote:

Seems no one saw it so I post again

Charles' position:Overmap is not allowed in any time.(Overmap's definition is any slider start/end/circle/spinner end not touch any sound in music even it's a 1/2 or 1/1)

Community's position:Overmap is okay if it is
1.an Insane diff
2.Fun/Fit(subjective thing)

Seems that alomst (I am not dare to say exactly) no one agrees with charles' rule which doesn't allow mappers do any overmap.
Charles simply proposed a solution which we can make contributions to. And, I will say again, this is merely to address recent unranks surrounding overmapping and to open discussion. I think you need to read more into the problem at hand.

As a matter of fact, Charles himself doesn't believe overmapping should be strictly abolished. Far from it.
posted

Nyquill wrote:

Guys guys let us remember here what Charles wanted in the first place.

Charles wants what the definitive meaning is of overmapping to be more lenient. He is not, per se, trying to say that overmapping is bad yada yada, but rather trying to get both sides of the argument to come to terms. This is because unranking of maps recently for reasons outside of ranking criteria has occured really frequently.

We're not here to try to argue with each other about mapping ideals.
Overmapping constitutes part of a person's mapping ideals, so it's only natural that it would be part of the discussion. The two opposing sides you are claiming to exist actually have two very different "mapping ideals", so again this was important to make clear.
In any case, overmapping is already such a broad term. You mean to say we are looking for a highly detailed description of what overmapping could be, so we can enforce it as a rule. It is hard to place a thumb on exactly what it is you want, but your best bet if you are aiming for a general community consensus would be to take the two and smack them together. Overmapping should be allowed within a degree. This degree needs to be worked out from both sides. Take the basic idea that describes each disposition and figure out where there are opposing values. Evaluate each side and let people discuss the pros and cons (as reasonable human beings) of each argument brought upon the table.

Musicality says we shall strictly map to the music. People want more freedom to use more notes because abiding by the clear guidelines of the song and Charles' current request of a rule is too limited. Not trying to label anyone here but most aesthetically based mappers completely disregard the rhythm of the song they are mapping to in order to express their interpretation of the song through art. There needs to be a guideline that insists the constant following of music, but still allow for the ability to create some additive rhythms. The main problem that has been addressed is how do we determine this? Conclusion so far: it's something that can only be figured out on a person by person basis. It's not something that will be completely solid. Test plays will be needed to figure out if something is overmapped or not. Because different people have different thoughts of what "overmapping" really is, you will get tons of opposing ideas still because not all XATs share the same views. They never will. I still believe a guideline is the only possibility. This will never become a rule. The moment it becomes a rule, there will be a lot of moping.
posted
Yes thank you for telling me what I already knew in two very long paragraphs.

Which is why I said "LENIENT".

We're trying to set down a rule/guideline which sets bounds that are lenient enough for everyone to follow and not be disappointed.

Make sense?
posted
Just thought you should be reminded that you are repeating yourself.

You aren't exactly helping the progress of this amendment by just instigating what needs to be done. By now I think people get it. The actual discussion of such things just needs to be carried on. Post something that's actually relevant to the topic if you're going to comment on other things in the meanwhile. You are saying that a rule/guideline that is lenient enough to support all types of mappers is being set in place. Do you have any idea of how this can even be achieved? A start maybe would be helpful? People have already insisted on several ideas, but it seems it's not getting through.

This leniency you speak of can only be achieved once all possible sides of the debate have spoken and brought up every potential issue. Only then can we really formulate a proper rule/guideline that is hard to break and is understandable by all.
posted
I think in this way shortly.

osu! has the auto modding program that detects and automatically deletes the notes, where the music itself isn't audiable.
And then everything will become like the nazi and creativity will be limited.
The maps can't be harder due to not being allowed additional notes anymore so that people, who want to make it harder, tend to add ridiculous jumps instead for the sake of difficulty.
The program neither detect this rhythmetical overmapping nor ridiculous jumps since these jumps are subjective and supposed to be judged by human's sense.
Because some 8.0x jump can fit in song A but can't fit in song B.

now, some XATs (which I think people know who are) are acting like this program.

as NTR said, XAT exists because XAT has common sense but this program doesn't have.
So I don't really know if XAT wants to act like a robot or something which I think it's ridiculous.
posted
Map songs that can justify the amount of density you want, don't force it on a song that can't provide it.
That sounds like common sense, eh?

Now I'm not against a few triplets here and there or maybe a 5 note stream for flavor. But when it gets so extreme and to the point where you aren't mapping the actual song anymore, there is a problem. And no this is not subjective or a "feeling", IT'S FACT. A song is created the way it is created, you can't twist or shape it into your own rhythm. Once you do that, you are not mapping the song anymore.

Btw I didn't read this thread at all, I'm just throwing my view out there.
posted

Frostmourne wrote:

creativity will be limited.
Creativity is and should only be limited by the song choice.
posted
As much as I'd like to see some codification on the subject (I'm no fan of rhythm getting smoothed into mere beat just to maintain a steady flow), I think it's problematic to define. For one thing, you kind of need to look at things from an "effective" object standpoint, not just a pure object one. This is most clearly seen in taiko mapping, where single notes in the music are often represented by the various 1/4 triples (or longer)... and it's perfectly natural, because those are effectively single duration-type objects representing differently coloured tones (high, low, rising, falling, etc). With standard, similar things can be done... example, using a stream run for a caterwauling note has been mentioned above.
posted
I find those overmap too
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/55537


[Duelist]

BAD OVERMAP

00:02:001 (5) - Slider end overmapped
00:02:379 (6,7) - Slide end overmapped
00:52:567 (8) - Slider end overmapped

01:03:322 (4,5,6) - Random triplet
00:43:888 (1,2,3) - Random triplet

etc



http://osu.ppy.sh/s/59936

[and those roll the best]

seriously overmapped

00:02:434 (2) - Slider end overmapped
00:12:934 (4) - No any sound in the music
00:21:684 (4) - No any sound in the music

etc



BAD OVERMAP THOSE UNRANK THEM
posted

Frostmourne wrote:

The maps can't be harder due to not being allowed additional notes anymore so that people, who want to make it harder, tend to add ridiculous jumps instead for the sake of difficulty.
The program neither detect this rhythmetical overmapping nor ridiculous jumps since these jumps are subjective and supposed to be judged by human's sense.
But you're committing a mistake there. I don't think that mapping is oriented to making insane maps, mapping is oriented to represent a song well. So if you have a song that allows insane stuff, so be it. But if you're mapping a quiet lullaby then there's no need to add odd things, do you see what I mean?

As long as the song allows for hard things to be done such as streams, nig jumps, etc, then it should be fine - but it's also part of our ability and skill as staff members to effectively recognize that, and inform it or not depending on the case.

Also a map isn't "boring" because it isn't overmapped, just to clear up...
posted
Didn't read the thread, but...
Creativity will be limited
What the hell are you talking about? It's up to mappers. I mean, there're tons of overmapped songs which plays as well, seems as well, hears as well, flows as well. Just a fact: a big percent of new ranked maps seems dull for me and not only for me. For now creativity isn't limited by ranking criterias. It's limited by general mapping style and MATs\BATs. But I still see some kind of creativity in some maps. Please, don't try to limit`em all.
Sorry for bad language.
posted
Alright, I think we've gotten enough of a sample of opinions over the course of 10 pages here. It's quite apparent that the proposed solution in the first post is a no-go due to flow and style concerns, and a zero-tolerance eliminates many viable avenues of mapping.

The thing is that for a compromise to happen, it's going to have to be give and lose a little on each side. Where can we draw the lines where overmapping has gone too far? Perhaps a suggestion for a cutoff is mapping to absolute silence such as a purposeful pause in a song? A statement that if you choose to use overmapping, then it needs to be consistently used and not just be an improv solo for 3 minutes?

Let's work towards getting some actual guidelines written up instead of just going in circles now.

Also nold: stop trolling. Thanks.
posted
No need for rule/guideline for this. Common sense is what is needed; yet we cannot give people that.
posted

GladiOol wrote:

No need for rule/guideline for this. Common sense is what is needed; yet we cannot give people that.
The problem is that "common sense" isn't enough of a reason for some mappers. Of course, if they're clearly being stupid, then their map can be nuked on the spot.

How about this:

Proposal wrote:

No overmapping which isn't necessary or detracts from the feel of the music. Overmapping refers to the placement of objects which do not coincide with anything in the song. Occasionally, some extra rhythms can add to the overall gameplay experience, but an overuse of these will feel out of place.

In easier maps, some rhythms may also need to be simplified, e.g. for when complicated patterns do not resolve to the beat intuitively. In general, overmapping should be regarded case-by-case, as its proper use depends on the music.
posted

GladiOol wrote:

No need for rule/guideline for this. Common sense is what is needed; yet we cannot give people that.
sadly common sense is not a thing you can expect to be confronted with when talking to mappers/modders.
posted

GladiOol wrote:

No need for rule/guideline for this. Common sense is what is needed; yet we cannot give people that.
Totally agreed. This rule cant fit every song on this planet, it depends. This limit is just noncense.
posted
I think overmapping is a tool to enhance the map, like Xakyrie had mentioned before,
and it should be used to enhance the map, i.e. players find it more interesting.
Experienced mappers and players that have a better sense of rhythm can overmap in a better way.
It is hard for new mappers especially those that are new to osu! and lack the sense of music to do overmapping
(though there maybe exceptional cases)

Overmapping is an advanced techniques and it is not so easy to master,
it can make a map stands out, but on the other hand it can ruin a map.
So, maybe the guideline should also mention that overmapping is not recommended to new mappers,
unless they know what they are doing?
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