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What do you have against PP farmers?

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Topic Starter
ryza
Curious, a lot of people around these forums seem to dislike others for trying to get high in the game's primary ranking.

Why?
Stefan
Well people dislike it if people ranks up very fast. And so that they call it as "farming". In other words: You are not allowed to play so much.
silmarilen
because pp is supposed to show skill, and if there are 3 hard farmers in the top10 above people that can 99% od10 high difficulty insanes, then its not very accurate.
its not so much the hard farmers that are hated, its the pp system that favours farming hards thats hated. if hards stopped giving so much pp nobody would complain.
zozozofun
I hate myself for ppfarming as well, not sure why, if you're a highranked player, you should do difficult maps, the higher, the more difficult, I guess.
CXu
People are jelly.
Topic Starter
ryza
Silma: which players are you talking about, anyways? I don't see anyone in the top 10 that can't play high difficulty insanes with good accuracy. Also, the pp system favoring hards is a really silly misconception (it is just generally easier to get good scores on hards for most players than on insanes, so most players see hards giving them the bulk of their pp -- because of this, you could say hards are favored in a way, but they will only take you so far unless you are really really good)

stefan: do people really think that
silmarilen
sure they can get great score in high difficulty insanes, but then they should do so instead of farming hards. and saying hards do not give way too much pp is just stupid, if they didnt they wouldnt be in the top performance of the #3
Aqo
Nobody dislikes PP farmers, that's where you're wrong Silynn.

People just wrongly think that somebody in top50 with [Hard]s in their best performance is at the same skill level as somebody with [Hard]s in their top performance who isn't, which is far from true, but most people don't know all the maps in this game by heart and don't realize the difference between a 140bpm [Hard]DT and a 200bpm [Hard]DT.

Unfortunately the truly impressive plays for players in the top are not on [Hard]DTs either, but the PP system is stupid and leads to those problems to begin with.
silmarilen

Aqo wrote:

Nobody dislikes PP farmers, that's where you're wrong Silynn.

People just wrongly think that somebody in top50 with [Hard]s in their best performance is at the same skill level as somebody with [Hard]s in their top performance who isn't, which is far from true, but most people don't know all the maps in this game by heart and don't realize the difference between a 140bpm [Hard]DT and a 200bpm [Hard]DT.
or a 200bpm [insane]DT

this map https://osu.ppy.sh/b/125099?m=0 has 6 HD DT SS and its the #2 performance of the #3 ranked player in the pp list

this map https://osu.ppy.sh/b/192508&m=0 which is already harder to fc nomod than the other one is to fc with hd dt has only 5 hd hr scores and the #1 doesnt even have it in his top 10 performances and hes not even top100
Topic Starter
ryza

Aqo wrote:

Nobody dislikes PP farmers, that's where you're wrong Silynn.
I find this hard to believe, lol (because it's wrong - even if you don't dislike pp farmers that doesn't mean it's true for everyone)

But yes, most people don't realize that the boundaries set by a difficulty name (hard or insane) are very very vague (some insanes are easier than average hards, and some hards are harder than a lot of insanes)

I mostly started this thread because of this exact misconception (just because it is labeled "hard" does not mean it is easier than an insane, especially when stacking DT)

I'd like to see someone tell me that this on DT isn't harder than 95% of the insanes in the game.

Not to mention, why does it matter that a lot of hards are weighted such? If they were truly so easy, they would be weighted lower by the system (difficulty is not necessarily difficulty to FC -- accuracy matters a lot in PP, which makes sense, since this is a game about clicking circles to a beat)

silmarilen wrote:

this map https://osu.ppy.sh/b/192508&m=0 which is already harder to fc nomod than the other one is to fc with hd dt has only 5 hd hr scores and the #1 doesnt even have it in his top 10 performances and hes not even top100
While the system does have flaws, I can point out to you exactly why this map isn't worth that much PP

1. the pp system doesn't care about map difficulty, it only cares about what the leaderboard looks like.
2. the pp system is heavily based on accuracy. while you may disagree with this, it makes a lot of sense (as I said above)
and if you sort the map by no mod scores, what do you see? A full page of SS ranks.
also, that map has a pretty decent play count, but not particularly high (kuusou has 420,000 plays on the hard diff, not to mention the entire page is HDDT scores and there's only 6 SS with that many)
Oinari-sama
imo if a system can be exploited, it will be exploited. I share the view that the current pp system is the source of the problem.

I think people are venting their frustration here because there's very little they can do to change it.
CXu
Well basically, many people don't think "pp farmers" deserves the rank they have, now especially when they themselves believe that the "pp farmers" aren't that much better than themself. Soooooo basically people are jelly of them ranks \o/
Liut
I'm jelly cause most of them are better then me but at the same time i'm disappointed cause very good player who are better then those "pp farmers" are like #100 or #200 while the farmers are in top 10.
D33d
It's little more than bitterness. Any system will be exploited, because the most efficient players are cheap as fuck by nature. Performance Points are at least a more accurate representation of one's ability, as opposed to showing nothing more than how lacking one's life is. By design, the system is supposed to react more to accuracy and hotly-contested maps.

Even though it's usually agreed to be a horrible practice, when people snipe the #1s of specific players, that's just the nature of competition. People may hate farmers, but those with skill and determination ought to be good enough to oust the farmers. There's not much point in whining, when one could pour their efforts into winning.
Wishy
Farming hards is easier than playing hard stuff and it is more rewarding@pp. I haven't been playing this for ages but some of my top performances are random DT HD plays on random [Hard]s. :/
Shiro
they get pp when they try to when I absolutely fail at it, whether or not I try
100% jelly
xsrsbsns
This is pretty straightforward..

People hate pp farmers for deliberately playing easy/easier diffs to gain additional pp, because they think it's unfair when they themselves and other pro players do not farm (a key point here). Naturally it also looks desperate and of course no one likes that.
silmarilen

Silynn wrote:

Aqo wrote:

Nobody dislikes PP farmers, that's where you're wrong Silynn.
I find this hard to believe, lol (because it's wrong - even if you don't dislike pp farmers that doesn't mean it's true for everyone)

But yes, most people don't realize that the boundaries set by a difficulty name (hard or insane) are very very vague (some insanes are easier than average hards, and some hards are harder than a lot of insanes)

I mostly started this thread because of this exact misconception (just because it is labeled "hard" does not mean it is easier than an insane, especially when stacking DT)

I'd like to see someone tell me that this on DT isn't harder than 95% of the insanes in the game.

Not to mention, why does it matter that a lot of hards are weighted such? If they were truly so easy, they would be weighted lower by the system (difficulty is not necessarily difficulty to FC -- accuracy matters a lot in PP, which makes sense, since this is a game about clicking circles to a beat)

silmarilen wrote:

this map https://osu.ppy.sh/b/192508&m=0 which is already harder to fc nomod than the other one is to fc with hd dt has only 5 hd hr scores and the #1 doesnt even have it in his top 10 performances and hes not even top100
While the system does have flaws, I can point out to you exactly why this map isn't worth that much PP

1. the pp system doesn't care about map difficulty, it only cares about what the leaderboard looks like.
2. the pp system is heavily based on accuracy. while you may disagree with this, it makes a lot of sense (as I said above)
and if you sort the map by no mod scores, what do you see? A full page of SS ranks.
also, that map has a pretty decent play count, but not particularly high (kuusou has 420,000 plays on the hard diff, not to mention the entire page is HDDT scores and there's only 6 SS with that many)
ok so by using logic you showed why the one map would give more pp than the other. then lets look at another example: me.

my whole top10 performance is hd fl on incredibly easy maps yet im almost top500 pp (i used to be top500). how is that fair?
and dont tell me i used a lot of plays so its dedication, because some of them were done in less than 20 plays
Mismagius
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/134551&m=0 barely gave me pp while HD+HR people get 242443932498 pp from it

I hate how this system is fully based on accuracy lol
Satonaka
imo It's because [Hard]s in beatmaps are labeled as Insane for osu! thus making them give similar (if not the same) pp.

Like silmarilen's examples. Both [Hard]s and [Insane]s display the I star for Insane. http://puu.sh/2qaAo and http://puu.sh/2qaAO
Saint_old

silmarilen wrote:

ok so by using logic you showed why the one map would give more pp than the other. then lets look at another example: me.

my whole top10 performance is hd fl on incredibly easy maps yet im almost top500 pp (i used to be top500). how is that fair?
and dont tell me i used a lot of plays so its dedication, because some of them were done in less than 20 plays
ye
silmarilen
that map gave me 1pp
i was more talking about these ones
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/40379?m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/201644?m=0
Saint_old

silmarilen wrote:

that map gave me 1pp
i was more talking about these ones
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/40379?m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/201644?m=0

ye
fartownik
If you farm PP on the main Insanes of the sets and do it with the hardest mod combination possible to achieve #1 then it's fine (aka Cookiezi farming). You can say it's not actually farming but just spamming #1s. Farming on Hards is simply wrong because you don't have enough of top tier players playing them to challenge with, which means getting the first place on them is easier than the main Insane, no matter the level of the difficulty itself. It can be as hard as the toughest Insanes, but still there's not enough competition and you just can't know how good the best players would do on them. It doesn't make the score any less impressive, but gives you additional PP that you don't deserve.
AmaiHachimitsu
Nothing wrong with massive PP gaining, but I don't like when someone gains PP via some shit hards, my opinion about pp is:

-Hard diffs should give less pp
-Nothing I can do about it, but I dislike when 70% of top 100 are FLwhores. Every damn map with some exceptions is gonna be FLed sooner or later T.T
-96% hdhr is like SS hd, please....
-If you don't make a PERFECT COMBO, you get like 1/5 PP (or less) you would normally achieve (mostly 0pp) - YOU DIDN'T END THE SLIDER PERFECTLY? - FUCK YOU, YOU MUST SUCK AT osu!
-Why the most played maps do give MUCH more pp? Instead of encouraging people to play miscellaneous maps they play only a bunch when they want to rank up. Who cares if a map is super-popular - top #30 will give you more pp than a #1 on a map that may be even harder, but happened to not be noticed. That's why some FLwhore can waste few days and gain outrageous amount of pp and in most cases a score with HDFL is the limit since one additional mod would make the map impossibru. This way FLers can even drop the game and remain top 50 for the next years.

The sheer fact of farming pp is okay if you really deserve it. I just don't like the priorities included in calculating pp earned. Every map should be tested in sense of real difficulty (and there exists a device to do so). Ranks should be the most important and the player will be given an amount of pp depending on the harshness of the map. Both DT and HR mods change the Overall Difficulty, using these mods naturally cause the accuracy to become lower. So what's the idea behind accuracy being the base? If I did 50x 100 with hhr and "copied" the way I pressed the buttons they would all land in the hit300 window when without HR, just hidden. And poof I get the same amount of pp or even more since SS has a bonus (this one is okay tho).

People are becoming angry with farming because they sometimes do incredible scores and they can't rank up. I bet there's plenty of you who think this or that score should get more PP
Thatgooey
I really give no fucks about rank and don't care about arbitrary numbers in front of my name. I know how good I am personally and that's all that really matters. But with points, the reason hards give so much more, is that it is a lot easier to SS them with mods. The more mods you use, the more points you get. The higher your acc is, the more points you get. AND, on top of that, if you SS a map you get a points bonus (this was stated by peppy himself and I may or may not have been the cause of this). Hard maps are also way more likely to have the most plays on them, thus deeming them to be "competitive maps", which give more PP reward. Mathematically and statistically speaking, the more plays the map has, the more competition there is. That is just the numbers speaking for themselves. Does that translate into a more interactive and skill-based environment? Probably not. Yes there is a formula to lessen the weight of play count on easier difficulties (for example, think like multiplier times .2[easy], .4[normal] .6[4star], .8[hard5star]), but that can only help so much. The reason the hards have more plays is that there are naturally more players who can play those difficulties than the insane ones. All of these factors lead to hard maps being worth a lot of performance points. Should you care? Probably not.

I don't think it's overly impressive for someone to farm hd/dt SS on 475 note hards, but to each their own. You should be focusing on making yourself better and not worrying about how many points you get for completing a map. If I went and played a bunch of hard maps and went up 200 ranks today (I can do this, it's not hard), I would not think to myself "hey I have more points now, I got better today". I didn't get any better at all. I didn't improve anything. Just my number in front of my name. Who the fuck cares? You get nothing for having the highest rank. No money. No rewards. No prizes. No free supporter. You don't get anything. If you hate someone's score so much, go beat it. Stop bitching about it on the forums. If you think you are so good and deserving of a higher rank because "oh look at me I can play insane maps and do harder things, but this person booboobooboboo", then go do exactly what they did but better. Go try and play for a number instead of for enjoyment like they do. You have to decide yourself why you play and not for the reasons others play. If you want your number to be bigger, go make it bigger. I'll keep playing my maps that I personally find fun as shit to play and I will keep playing them and working towards my own goals. Who cares about the stupid fucking number. If you wan't to get better, go get better. Don't worry about what other people think. You will start to hate the game for what it is the minute you stop playing it the way YOU want to play it and for the reasons YOU play it.
Defacer

Blue Dragon wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/134551&m=0 barely gave me pp while HD+HR people get 242443932498 pp from it

I hate how this system is fully based on accuracy lol
Blue Dragon just pointed the biggest shit in the pp system, I love him for that.PP system is basically ACCURACY.

osu! is the only game in which hard can give more power than insane, and some people JUST CONTINUE CLAIMING that HARD+DT isn't that easy, WELL put some DT(or even HR) on insane and check again.I am simply amazed how I get pp for random nomod S on a fucking LAME map while I enter top40 or at least top100 on a harder map WITH DT and get 0~1pp each time.

On topic: I personally don't understand someone, how can he live knowing he is ranked top #100 in global performance and have Hard as his top performance o_O, I would rather quit this game.If I am top100 I would be expected to play AT LEAST insane maps, right?And I don't hate those people cause everybody is free to do what he wants, what I am saying is that pp system sux.
Zare

Defacer wrote:

On topic: I personally don't understand someone, how can he live knowing he is ranked top #100 in global performance and have Hard as his top performance o_O, I would rather quit this game.If I am top100 I would be expected to play AT LEAST insane maps, right?
>implying people who farm hard's can't play Insane
CXu

Defacer wrote:

Blue Dragon wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/134551&m=0 barely gave me pp while HD+HR people get 242443932498 pp from it

I hate how this system is fully based on accuracy lol
Blue Dragon just pointed the biggest shit in the pp system, I love him for that.PP system is basically ACCURACY.

osu! is the only game in which hard can give more power than insane, and some people JUST CONTINUE CLAIMING that HARD+DT isn't that easy, WELL put some DT(or even HR) on insane and check again.I am simply amazed how I get pp for random nomod S on a fucking LAME map while I enter top40 or at least top100 on a harder map WITH DT and get 0~1pp each time.

On topic: I personally don't understand someone, how can he live knowing he is ranked top #100 in global performance and have Hard as his top performance o_O, I would rather quit this game.If I am top100 I would be expected to play AT LEAST insane maps, right?And I don't hate those people cause everybody is free to do what he wants, what I am saying is that pp system sux.
Oh no I should be ashamed and kill myself now as I have [Hard] maps as my top performance and I'm in the top #100 of global performance ranking. Wait shit I'm not anymore, lol. nvm me.
Thatgooey

Defacer wrote:

Blue Dragon wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/134551&m=0 barely gave me pp while HD+HR people get 242443932498 pp from it

I hate how this system is fully based on accuracy lol
Blue Dragon just pointed the biggest shit in the pp system, I love him for that.PP system is basically ACCURACY.

osu! is the only game in which hard can give more power than insane, and some people JUST CONTINUE CLAIMING that HARD+DT isn't that easy, WELL put some DT(or even HR) on insane and check again.I am simply amazed how I get pp for random nomod S on a fucking LAME map while I enter top40 or at least top100 on a harder map WITH DT and get 0~1pp each time.

On topic: I personally don't understand someone, how can he live knowing he is ranked top #100 in global performance and have Hard as his top performance o_O, I would rather quit this game.If I am top100 I would be expected to play AT LEAST insane maps, right?And I don't hate those people cause everybody is free to do what he wants, what I am saying is that pp system sux.
Ya, I don't know how RUCKER can live with himself having a [Hard] as his top performance, you are right. That jerk. GOSH! He is just a hard spammer who can't even pl-

OH WAIT HE IS RUCKER, JUST KIDDING.

Proof: http://osu.ppy.sh/b/1147?m=0

I really wish people would put less emphasis on the amount of PP they get from playing a map and care more about the fact that they got a top15 on a map in the first place. That is reward enough. That is actual progress that you can see. It's right there in front of you, you just got rank 15 on an insane map. Why do you want more? I smile every god damn time I make a top40 with mods on an insane map. It's a good feeling. I don't give a shit about the performance points, I just ranked higher than a player who I know is good, and probably better than me. I can physically see my name placed above them on the scoreboard for that song.
Winshley
One of the current flaw of pp system is that it favors more on score and mod combination, rather than having separate statistics that determines what they're good at.

Some (read: "most") players favor speed on their plays, e.g: DT over HD+HR, HD+DT over HR+FL, and DT+FL over HD+HR+FL, which can be true at least on some cases. It's like an awkward way on getting easy #1 with HD+HR+FL to win over DT+FL and HD+DT plays.

I'm not even good at streams (160 BPM is my current limit), but my pp rank somehow is placed around players who probably could stream 200 BPM, all thanks to my Flashlight plays. This is why I just wished that my pp rank is worse than current, but I hate to not playing challenging maps.

Another thing is Accuracy. Some people hate certain mod combination with perfect accuracy to lose over someone with bad accuracy just because the person has additional HR mod. (Sorry, Saint and Shilkey/Hanyuu-chan, but I know someone who added you into their hate list. I actually don't care about it. ;< )

Additionally, some old maps still tends to be a "pp gold mine". I believe this might be because of lacking dedication from pro players towards those maps.

In conclusion, I don't really like how current pp system works (well... not hating it completely though). I simply played this game for fun and pretending that pp system never exists. Maybe pp system might improve someday (which I'm hoping for), but who knows?

That's my 2 cents.
GoldenWolf

Thatgooey wrote:

I really wish people would put less emphasis on the amount of PP they get from playing a map and care more about the fact that they got a top15 on a map in the first place. That is reward enough. That is actual progress that you can see. It's right there in front of you, you just got rank 15 on an insane map. Why do you want more? I smile every god damn time I make a top40 with mods on an insane map. It's a good feeling. I don't give a shit about the performance points, I just ranked higher than a player who I know is good, and probably better than me. I can physically see my name placed above them on the scoreboard for that song.
^this
Stefan

Silynn wrote:

stefan: do people really think that
How I realized that, yes.
Defacer

Zarerion wrote:

Defacer wrote:

On topic: I personally don't understand someone, how can he live knowing he is ranked top #100 in global performance and have Hard as his top performance o_O, I would rather quit this game.If I am top100 I would be expected to play AT LEAST insane maps, right?
>implying people who farm hard's can't play Insane
I am obviously not implying this, also apparently my words come to your head really really offensive, as I am being mocked by 2-3 people there, obviously we have language misunderstandings, also I was joking but some people just got offended by this apparently, I kinda realized when I translate directly from my language it just sucks for others, also any other addition like sarcasm etc isn't valid on the internet, ok w/e.

On topic- If I am top player(according to pp system) I won't go around and play the easier difficulty when there is A HARDER one, and that's how I am proceeding most of the time if I am not ultrabored, and go DT some hard just to see how I am gonna get pp from it while I SWEAT on a map for 20 minutes eventually just getting the epic amount of 0pp just for the experiments.
It's against any logical law of me to be able to do Insane and go for Hard, theoretically speaking not giving any examples.Maybe it's in my nature only to go for the hardest and that's unique to me(or at least rare) and other people's view are different thinking that easier diff is aok.Peace.
silmarilen
i farm hards with FL for more e-peen, but i upload videos of my plays to youtube frequently and i would never upload a hard map i just played for pp farm
Tanzklaue
I think everybody is open to play what they want to play. if people say that this is the wrong way to play the game, then something is obviously off. only because you wouldn't play hard diffs with HD DT to get more pp doesn't mean that it isn't ok for others to do so. in the end, you should enjoy playing the game. if your enjoyment comes from an high pp-rank achieved through many hard-maps, then so be it.

so yea, this whole vendetta against pp-farmers is pretty stupid in my opinion. if you care about the ranking, then work for a high rankingplacement.
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