I like it, maybe give people "Map Hunter" status's as a reward for compiling a hell load of great interesting graveyarded beat maps!peppy wrote:
There's no reason we can't push some of thees graveyarded maps into ranked, if they are of exceptional quality. Why not make a list somewhere or something, to get things started?
forum
Ranked vs. Unranked
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https://osu.ppy.sh/s/44807 
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/48925
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/53429
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/118971
Those come to mind right now but sadly according to current rules they can't be ranked because they lack easy/normal difficulties, and are not long enough for approval.
I can actually think of many others but just throwing the ones I consider absolutely exceptional, and are properly submitted and for sure abandoned.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/48925
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/53429
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/118971
Those come to mind right now but sadly according to current rules they can't be ranked because they lack easy/normal difficulties, and are not long enough for approval.
I can actually think of many others but just throwing the ones I consider absolutely exceptional, and are properly submitted and for sure abandoned.
Blue Amber :3
Other than for modding purposes I rarely download unranked maps. "Good" versus "bad" mapping is extremely subjective in my opinion, so I don't really care that much if a map is "good" if the mapper does not put in the effort to have it ranked. No matter how "bad" you think a ranked map might be, the creator nonetheless put in a lot of effort (in most cases) to get that map to ranked status, and that alone is far more valuable to me than which map I personally enjoy more. I'm happy to help unranked maps get ranked, but to be honest if the creator has no motivation or intention to put in the effort to put the mapset through the modding process, then I don't really have a reason to download the unranked mapset.
One of the maps I absolutely love https://osu.ppy.sh/s/41962
But same case as above it doesn't have easier difficulties.
But same case as above it doesn't have easier difficulties.
Moway wrote:
Other than for modding purposes I rarely download unranked maps. "Good" versus "bad" mapping is extremely subjective in my opinion, so I don't really care that much if a map is "good" if the mapper does not put in the effort to have it ranked. No matter how "bad" you think a ranked map might be, the creator nonetheless put in a lot of effort (in most cases) to get that map to ranked status, and that alone is far more valuable to me than which map I personally enjoy more. I'm happy to help unranked maps get ranked, but to be honest if the creator has no motivation or intention to put in the effort to put the mapset through the modding process, then I don't really have a reason to download the unranked mapset.
A lot of mappers make their maps in such a way that is very fun for a lot of people, and to go through the modding process would change aspects of maps many people enjoy. ("penis slider" on Big Money is one example). Pretty much anything by Zapy is really good, yet unrankable and sitting in the graveyard, as well as lot of other maps that people have pointed out in this thread.
Yeah, the problem of most good unranked maps is the fact they lack easier difficulties, making them unrankable. However, this usually doesn't mean the mapper is lazy or anything. old approval category pleeeeaaaseee
Wow now that was retarded.Moway wrote:
Other than for modding purposes I rarely download unranked maps. "Good" versus "bad" mapping is extremely subjective in my opinion, so I don't really care that much if a map is "good" if the mapper does not put in the effort to have it ranked. No matter how "bad" you think a ranked map might be, the creator nonetheless put in a lot of effort (in most cases) to get that map to ranked status, and that alone is far more valuable to me than which map I personally enjoy more. I'm happy to help unranked maps get ranked, but to be honest if the creator has no motivation or intention to put in the effort to put the mapset through the modding process, then I don't really have a reason to download the unranked mapset.
Zarerion wrote:
Wow now that was retarded.Moway wrote:
Other than for modding purposes I rarely download unranked maps. "Good" versus "bad" mapping is extremely subjective in my opinion, so I don't really care that much if a map is "good" if the mapper does not put in the effort to have it ranked. No matter how "bad" you think a ranked map might be, the creator nonetheless put in a lot of effort (in most cases) to get that map to ranked status, and that alone is far more valuable to me than which map I personally enjoy more. I'm happy to help unranked maps get ranked, but to be honest if the creator has no motivation or intention to put in the effort to put the mapset through the modding process, then I don't really have a reason to download the unranked mapset.
the first line made me think "mhh thats not so retarded" but then i read the rest and yeah, thats pretty retarded.
Feel free to say why you disagree, but that's my opinion. I'm a mapper and I recognize the difficulties of the modding process, so I download unranked maps to help them through that process. Don't see what's so retarded about that, as you put it.
i was always under the impression that approval maps were special in one way or another. either too long, too hard, gimmicky maps (like tag4 or blythe) bring back tag and imo the scoreboards would usually tell you who the best players were. now the approval category is just for too long which i would have thought would mean there would be no approval category at all as ranked score isn't the main ranking system now. owell criteria probably won't be changed back :<Zarerion wrote:
old approval category pleeeeaaaseee
I'd believe it'd be hard to get maps ranked with people that have your kind of mentality.Moway wrote:
Feel free to say why you disagree, but that's my opinion. I'm a mapper and I recognize the difficulties of the modding process, so I download unranked maps to help them through that process. Don't see what's so retarded about that, as you put it.
I think you're misunderstanding me. If the mapper is going through the process of trying to get the map ranked then I will download the unranked map. I'm talking about maps where people don't try to map more difficulties or leave intentionally unrankable things in their maps. I don't download those. If someone needs a timing check, or is in the process of requesting mods then I will download the map when I can help.buny wrote:
I'd believe it'd be hard to get maps ranked with people that have your kind of mentality.Moway wrote:
Feel free to say why you disagree, but that's my opinion. I'm a mapper and I recognize the difficulties of the modding process, so I download unranked maps to help them through that process. Don't see what's so retarded about that, as you put it.
Well I think you just worded it badly then
Moway wrote:
has a point of view
buny wrote:
misunderstands it, comments on it
Moway wrote:
explains it more thoroughly
Come on... we can all get along in the sandbox, can't we? Use more positive wording, makes the place nicer!buny wrote:
still holds a personal grudge
While I see the way Moway is looking at the ranking of a map, or the lack of it, I think you can fairly easily agree upon the fact that outside opinions (modding), which are most of the time not forced upon the map, as they are suggestions, will IMPROVE the map since more effort, thought and perception is going into the map. That said the mapper can either push for the ranking criteria or keep the way the map HE thinks is the betterment of the map. This is called the mappers freedom.
And don't get me wrong, I find dozens of unranked maps more fun than at least 75% of the maps ranked today. Be it the map, difficulty level or the song itself, something of the set should give me the feeling: "I'm sold". I do think that leaving a map unplayed simply because it does not hold enough difficulties is simply narrow-minded though. We all have different opinions on what makes a good/ranked (same term, just standardized for the majority of the community and especially newcomers) and bad map. We all have our reasons for what we play the game for, let them enjoy it.
Ending thoughts: I'm not proof-reading the shit I release upon the'
So acknowledging that I did misunderstand it is a personal grudge?
Don't take it personally, all I did was give my answer to the question he asked.
Don't take it personally, all I did was give my answer to the question he asked.
I really don't understand why I'm getting so much hate in this thread, so I'll just try to say it again one more time.
If i had the choice between downloading a bad mapset, but a completed one with the mapper asking for mods and a good map with just one difficulty and the mapper having no intention of getting the map ranked, then I will download the bad map every time. This is literally all I have been saying. I want to get as many unranked maps ranked as possible, so I download the ones where I can help. If I can't help or the mapper doesn't seem to want to get the map ranked, then I won't download the map.
If i had the choice between downloading a bad mapset, but a completed one with the mapper asking for mods and a good map with just one difficulty and the mapper having no intention of getting the map ranked, then I will download the bad map every time. This is literally all I have been saying. I want to get as many unranked maps ranked as possible, so I download the ones where I can help. If I can't help or the mapper doesn't seem to want to get the map ranked, then I won't download the map.
Sometimes, maps will be held up indefinitely because BATs can't agree on what is actually acceptable. In other cases, it can be a case of not being able to find more than one BAT, who might pop a bubble for something subjective or otherwise something that's overly picky.Moway wrote:
I think you're misunderstanding me. If the mapper is going through the process of trying to get the map ranked then I will download the unranked map. I'm talking about maps where people don't try to map more difficulties or leave intentionally unrankable things in their maps. I don't download those. If someone needs a timing check, or is in the process of requesting mods then I will download the map when I can help.
Honestly, I'd be happy with an extremely strict set of rules by which the ranking process could be made much more obvious--a set which doesn't stifle creativity, but still enforces polished maps. If done properly, it'd give mappers and modders more pointers for getting closer to perfection and there would be fewer quibbles over what deserves to be ranked by its virtues as going above and beyond the standard, instead of being ranked just because there's nothing "unrankable."
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/41954
Pretty please
Pretty please
tl;dr: Problem is the ranking criteria is subjective since it's up to what BATs think is ok.
It was an exaggeration. I was bringing up a point doing it and clearly succeeded. Unless you feel fine leaving a conversation at "Well I think you just worded it badly then".buny wrote:
So acknowledging that I did misunderstand it is a personal grudge?
Don't take it personally, all I did was give my answer to the question he asked.
I am sure you would be an excellent addition to the BAT-team.Wishy wrote:
tl;dr: Problem is the ranking criteria is subjective since it's up to what BATs think is ok.
Trust me, any random decent player who was given BAT powers for a day would rank about 50+ maps and lots of players would support him.
i would give as many silences as i could
I'm sorry but I need to laugh a bit and step back, it isn't as easy as that trust me. Also ranking 50+ maps would be impossible to do in a day.Wishy wrote:
Trust me, any random decent player who was given BAT powers for a day would rank about 50+ maps and lots of players would support him.
Personally, I would rank about 5/6 maps in probably less than a few minutes. It'd be a matter of time before finding all those magnificent abandoned maps. Assuming that getting a map ranked = 1 click.
I can't even begin to count how many maps I've seen sit in WIP or the graveyard for months if not years just to get ranked with... no real changes at all. And it's not hard either to list several maps that actually play just fine and even if they have some "unrankable" shit, I don't really care, since most of those are actually opinion-based. Many maps already getting ranked with "unrankable patterns" (according to some BATs).
I know that then you would have like every mapper asking for his maps to get ranked instantly and players crying because of no real reason, but you aren't actually hurting anyone.
I can't even begin to count how many maps I've seen sit in WIP or the graveyard for months if not years just to get ranked with... no real changes at all. And it's not hard either to list several maps that actually play just fine and even if they have some "unrankable" shit, I don't really care, since most of those are actually opinion-based. Many maps already getting ranked with "unrankable patterns" (according to some BATs).
I know that then you would have like every mapper asking for his maps to get ranked instantly and players crying because of no real reason, but you aren't actually hurting anyone.
are you so sure those maps are 100% perfect thoughWishy wrote:
Personally, I would rank about 5/6 maps in probably less than a few minutes. It'd be a matter of time before finding all those magnificent abandoned maps. Assuming that getting a map ranked = 1 click.
I can't even begin to count how many maps I've seen sit in WIP or the graveyard for months if not years just to get ranked with... no real changes at all. And it's not hard either to list several maps that actually play just fine and even if they have some "unrankable" shit, I don't really care, since most of those are actually opinion-based. Many maps already getting ranked with "unrankable patterns" (according to some BATs).
I know that then you would have like every mapper asking for his maps to get ranked instantly and players crying because of no real reason, but you aren't actually hurting anyone.
No map will ever be 100% perfect. As I said lots of "not perfect" things, if not every one of them, are opinion based. If you take some map like http://osu.ppy.sh/s/53429 I don't think there is much that you can change. You may like to see some things changed but the map is good that way and nothing NEEDS to be changed, same applies to pretty much any elite-super-experienced mapper.
Whenever something is wrong you can somehow feel it or even just see it while playing the map, when I first played [Skystar] on Kodoku Egoism mapset I knew about one part that probably BATs/MATs would whine about, and then when I wanted it for OWC some staff members said "no because this part is unrankable". It's not that hard to spot that... and even then it's opinion based since some BATs thought the map was fine and ranked it. Either that or they didn't see the map at all.
Whenever something is wrong you can somehow feel it or even just see it while playing the map, when I first played [Skystar] on Kodoku Egoism mapset I knew about one part that probably BATs/MATs would whine about, and then when I wanted it for OWC some staff members said "no because this part is unrankable". It's not that hard to spot that... and even then it's opinion based since some BATs thought the map was fine and ranked it. Either that or they didn't see the map at all.
I've got plenty of unranked maps. Frankly, there are so many fun unranked maps out there that deserve more publicity than they get. The ranking process is ridiculous at this point and is very much a popularity contest. That's not to say there aren't tons of garbage maps that are unranked for a reason, but there are mappers out there who pretty much only make unranked charts like caren_sk. It's sad that a process that amounts mostly to a popularity contest is what determines whether or not someone's maps get played a lot. There are tons of uninspired, mediocre, boring maps that get ranked while any interesting unique and challenging maps stay in pending/graveyard for ages (and often never get ranked)
we definitely need a rule that not every map needs an Easy diff. However, we can't let that be decided based on the opinion of a BAT or anyone else, because everyone will only map Insane's and request it to be ranked like that.
also, another nice map: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/34256
also, another nice map: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/34256
Let me just throw this out therebuny wrote:
are you so sure those maps are 100% perfect though
ranked maps today
are FAR from 100% perfect
when i say perfect i just mean timing correct etc
i do agree that the quality of the maps that are ranked are lower than expected
i do agree that the quality of the maps that are ranked are lower than expected
No you couldn't rank 5/6 maps right off the start as I said it would be impossible plus for these older maps you would have to get in contact with the creator, it is a TEAM effort there is no "I" in team. With a mind set like yours I wouldn't take you seriously, thinking you could be a cure all to the issues of the ranking system is cute tho. When you get less one sided views and and bother to work with a team come back and talk to me till then keep your one sided opinions to yourself k thanks~
wishy doesn't understand what the goal of the current ranking system is and thus he doesn't understand the job of the BATs.
The current ranking system ranks maps that follow predetermined criterias. through modding, the quality of the map gets improved and fixes errors contradicting the criterias. this has the goal to rank a map the majority of the community enjoys or can enjoy.
most of the maps that people like wishy would rank aren't maps that are that interesting for the community. they have 3 (in really sick cases like FD 4D hard maps) to maybe 100-200 players (in less extrem cases) people who can handle the map. in a community with an active playerbase of 8000-15000 different players a day, this is not big enough to really matter.
another point is that most of the mappers who mapped those maps never aimed for a rank. they knew that their map would be unrankable if they mapped it liek they wanted it to be mapped, so they didn't bother to rank it, because that would have ment drastic changes for their maps. following this point, mappers who want to rank maps like this shouldn't cry about there maps getting seriously cut down to fit the criterias.
The current ranking system ranks maps that follow predetermined criterias. through modding, the quality of the map gets improved and fixes errors contradicting the criterias. this has the goal to rank a map the majority of the community enjoys or can enjoy.
most of the maps that people like wishy would rank aren't maps that are that interesting for the community. they have 3 (in really sick cases like FD 4D hard maps) to maybe 100-200 players (in less extrem cases) people who can handle the map. in a community with an active playerbase of 8000-15000 different players a day, this is not big enough to really matter.
another point is that most of the mappers who mapped those maps never aimed for a rank. they knew that their map would be unrankable if they mapped it liek they wanted it to be mapped, so they didn't bother to rank it, because that would have ment drastic changes for their maps. following this point, mappers who want to rank maps like this shouldn't cry about there maps getting seriously cut down to fit the criterias.
There are no predetermined criteria. It's all BAT opinions. And many BATs are currently abusing this state to speedrank maps of each other or their friends, while enforcing unnecessary changes on other people's maps or else threatening them that their maps cannot get ranked, even that they're perfectly fine.Tanzklaue wrote:
The current ranking system ranks maps that follow predetermined criterias.
trust me, I'm painfully aware of this.Aqo wrote:
There are no predetermined criteria. It's all BAT opinions. And many BATs are currently abusing this state to speedrank maps of each other or their friends, while enforcing unnecessary changes on other people's maps or else threatening them that their maps cannot get ranked, even that they're perfectly fine.Tanzklaue wrote:
The current ranking system ranks maps that follow predetermined criterias.
i would like links for these mods saying where they did itAqo wrote:
enforcing unnecessary changes on other people's maps or else threatening them that their maps cannot get ranked, even that they're perfectly fine.
Weeell...No. A map of a really good mapper doesn't improve through modding. The changes that get applied are purely opinion based suggestions, and often these changes make the map less unique, less interesting.Tanzklaue wrote:
through modding, the quality of the map gets improved and fixes errors contradicting the criterias. this has the goal to rank a map the majority of the community enjoys or can enjoy.
This statement makes no sense. Most of the players, even not-so-good ones, enjoy these maps and would like to play them if they knew they existed.Tanzklaue wrote:
most of the maps that people like wishy would rank aren't maps that are that interesting for the community. they have 3 (in really sick cases like FD 4D hard maps) to maybe 100-200 players (in less extrem cases) people who can handle the map. in a community with an active playerbase of 8000-15000 different players a day, this is not big enough to really matter.
And even if they wouldn't, what's the point of not ranking good, hard maps additionally to the bad, easy ones?
This only applies for a few cases, and those show how much the ranking criteria can, and should be improved.Tanzklaue wrote:
another point is that most of the mappers who mapped those maps never aimed for a rank. they knew that their map would be unrankable if they mapped it liek they wanted it to be mapped, so they didn't bother to rank it, because that would have ment drastic changes for their maps. following this point, mappers who want to rank maps like this shouldn't cry about there maps getting seriously cut down to fit the criterias.
However usually that isn't even true, except for lacking easy diffs most of the unranked maps fit the Criteria quite well.