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[Archived] "Only allow changes to local offset in first 10 seconds"

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kriers
1,963 posts
Joined April 2010
kriers

peppy wrote:

Please report incorrectly timed maps and we will fix them. This has always been the case.
Let me just try and put things clear as to why I feel very unfairly treated right now:

Currently there are so many mistimed maps, even among the newer maps. This can be a due to damaged mp3s or mistiming that wasn't noticed by moderators when the mapset got ranked. This happens a lot, sadly. In most cases these irregularities in offset are only 2-10 ms, but that's very noticeable for players looking to get high accuracy on OD10. This is why we seek to change offset whenever we see the need for it, and usually we do that in the breaks where often the map lacks a new timeline to get the correct offset for that section.

The amount of maps out there with similar mistakes are huge and although we who need to change offset are in a minority, we are also the few players with the level of accuracy to actually notice. Us few can't report hundreds of issues like this. It's unfair and it will never be done this way simply because it's too much effort. In the end, us losing our ability to adjust mistakes for ourselves, is all there is to it in this change.
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
Please restart the map and change at the beginning, and also report the issues in the map thread or to a BAT directly. If there are many ranked maps like this, we need to get started fixing 'em. Local offsets are not the solution.
kriers
1,963 posts
Joined April 2010
kriers

peppy wrote:

Please restart the map and change at the beginning.
I think you misunderstand my point. We often do several changes during one map where offset fleets back and forth. We want the ability to adjust to this again.

If all we can do is set offset from the beginning, we will be forced to play with that offset, even when it goes off balance later on in a map.
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
Please report in the map thread of to a BAT. Rather than each player fixing this, they should be fixed in the beatmaps.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

peppy wrote:

Please report incorrectly timed maps and we will fix them. This has always been the case.
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/34083
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/15706

2 I remember on the fly where offset change mid map is sort of required because the incorrect BPMs make the maps go too slow/fast in such a manner than the difference between offset at the start and the end of the map is somewhere in 20ms range. With very high OD (hard rock), even OD8 nomod @2nd one they are nearly impossible to SS under normal means (without changing the offset while playing).
Having a static offset fix will not fix these issues.

peppy wrote:

Please report in the map thread of to a BAT. Rather than each player fixing this, they should be fixed in the beatmaps.
We can't fix bad BPMs though. :(
kriers
1,963 posts
Joined April 2010
kriers

lolcubes wrote:

We can't fix bad BPMs though. :(
We can still adjust by adding local offset. Or that was the case before.
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
We can fix bad BPMs. It just takes a bit more effort. If enough are reported I will make sure the team looks into them.
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF
I'll just toss in a couple more for now.

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/977
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/43
plaird
15 posts
Joined October 2011
Topic Starter
plaird

peppy wrote:

Please report in the map thread of to a BAT. Rather than each player fixing this, they should be fixed in the beatmaps.
It cannot be both?
Certainly errors should be fixed, but even then not everyone will agree on the same timing. If you find that something feels wrong, others may not agree. If something now feels right, others may feel that it is now wrong. And if you cannot convince anybody, there's nothing that you can do. The ability to avoid such things by making your own decisions about what feels right was an appealing aspect of the game.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
If peppy says BATs can fix bad BPMs, then you have permission to fix bad BPMs. It would take a map update, but I'm not sure if updating would revert it to the latest version. That was an issue awhile ago.
Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
1,975 posts
Joined July 2008
Cyclone
I may try starting to look at ranked maps with bad offsets again. I started a thread like 2 years ago or something but never really did anything. To my knowledge, BPM fixes will require that all scores are wiped, a sensitive issue with older maps. (I'm looking at you bad apple.)

Until I get off my lazy ass and make something organized, feel free to PM me maps to look at.
merchat7
1,673 posts
Joined December 2010
merchat7
I would presume it would work like online offset, but after a certain point in the map, there will be a trigger which automatically adjust offset?

For example, a beatmap have a wrong offset (need -10) and a wrong bpm (+10 off at end). Song length is 2 minute.

So you would -10 the first red line and then after 1 min, +5 to offset and then 2min +5 offset. No unranking/updating is necessary and as people were using local offset like this anyway, it's more or less already in the game.

I was not aware people weren't reporting timing issues, I always see on badly timed beatmap people writing in the beatmap thread about it. I guess there should be an easier way like a button after you finish a beatmap to report this. Maybe it'll motivate more people to report timing issues.

@plaird
Timing is an objective thing. It's either right or wrong. I guess it's fine if people prefer to adjust it themselves through, but this is not up for me to decide.
Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
1,975 posts
Joined July 2008
Cyclone
A system like this is not in place, but that doesn't mean it can't be made. We'll have to see what peppy says to that.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Why will it cause a score wipe? It does not affect objects and max score will not change. Old replays may be out of sync, but that's not a terrible issue.
Sure
4,219 posts
Joined February 2009
Sure
I don't care about miss timed beatmaps. Just I can't adjust offset during testing in the middle of the map, it's really annoying.
Restore it please peppy
Sonnyc
7,753 posts
Joined June 2008
Sonnyc

ykcarrot wrote:

I don't care about miss timed beatmaps. Just I can't adjust offset during testing in the middle of the map, it's really annoying.
Restore it please peppy
I thought this was my PC's fault :(
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz

TheVileOne wrote:

If peppy says BATs can fix bad BPMs, then you have permission to fix bad BPMs. It would take a map update, but I'm not sure if updating would revert it to the latest version. That was an issue awhile ago.
Not every BAT can force update beatmaps.

Or noone never told me how to do so.

If the ability is ever granted to the BAT I will gladly fix timing issues.
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
If enough are reported I will make sure BATs are able to fix this. I will add this functionality back during test mode; that is fine.
statementreply
Pro Tester
307 posts
Joined June 2009
statementreply

peppy wrote:

Please restart the map and change at the beginning, and also report the issues in the map thread or to a BAT directly. If there are many ranked maps like this, we need to get started fixing 'em. Local offsets are not the solution.
I believe there're at least 20% out of all ranked maps that are off by >±5ms. I can help to make a tool to automatically detect the timing of most single-BPM songs with reasonable accuracy and compare against the beatmap (and also a list of songs it can't time) if you wish :P running it on all ranked beatmaps should take less than one day.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Fixing offsets is easy and if the offset is bad we usually fix it already (if reported).
But yeah as I stated in my previous post, there are multibpm maps with different offsets and maps with wrong BPM which I guess need some waiting now for peppy to implement the possibility to fix BPMs as well.

I wonder how would this look like, cause if it's something like "online offset at" such things could effectively fix a lot of problems without a need to unrank & wipe scores.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
No wiping scores because of bad modding please.
statementreply
Pro Tester
307 posts
Joined June 2009
statementreply

lolcubes wrote:

Fixing offsets is easy and if the offset is bad we usually fix it already (if reported).
But yeah as I stated in my previous post, there are multibpm maps with different offsets and maps with wrong BPM which I guess need some waiting now for peppy to implement the possibility to fix BPMs as well.

I wonder how would this look like, cause if it's something like "online offset at" such things could effectively fix a lot of problems without a need to unrank & wipe scores.
Starting from xxxxxx ms, offset timing by +/- yy ms and skew timing by +/- zzz ppm
plaird
15 posts
Joined October 2011
Topic Starter
plaird

merchat7 wrote:

@plaird
Timing is an objective thing. It's either right or wrong. I guess it's fine if people prefer to adjust it themselves through, but this is not up for me to decide.
Timing is objective but perception of it is subjective. The point is not that a person should be able to use their subjective perceived timing because they do not agree with an objectively correct timing, it is that the "objectively correct" timing may not be objectively correct because it is merely what another person subjectively perceived to be correct, hence why discrepancies exist at all.

This game is not like other rhythm games where all players use the same hardware and play songs timed by the same people, so I felt that the ability for players to do what felt correct to them was a good thing. But if human error were to be removed from the process then I won't really care.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
This thread seems like a Feature Request to me, so my response will be feature oriented.

Perhaps out of sync replays might not be the best thing actually. I certainly wouldn't want my old replay completely ruined because the BPM was changed. I also wouldn't want the scores wiped. Perhaps there would be a way that wouldn't affect existing saved replays. I think it might be worth including such a feature sometime in the distant future.

I could be wrong, but aren't the replays using the actual beatmap's object data? If you save a local replay and then change the where the objects are in the song, will that not affect how the objects appear in the replay? I haven't tested this, and plan to when I am in a position to test. If this is the case, wouldn't this make replays potentially unstable, and could be changed regardless if the user saved the replay. If this is not the case, then that means object data is saved on a per replay level. I don't see it being too difficult to add code that decides whether to overwrite or keep existing replay object data.

My Idea

A map that has BPM updated creates a replay file that goes in the beatmap folder or whereever it needs to go. Upon map update, it will inform the users that BPM has changed, and that old replays will need to use replay file to stay in sync. Use whatever method works best to distribute said replay file. Old replay formats will need to use the replay file, while newer recorded replays will not require the replay file. This could probably be done with the design of a shiny new replay format entirely or just a modified one that allows this.

The replay file will in no way affect score submission and is only used for older already processed replays.

A lot of text trying to say: Changes to replay data should be handled in a stable way, if we are going to prevent score wiping.
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF

TheVileOne wrote:

If you save a local replay and then change the where the objects are in the song, will that not affect how the objects appear in the replay?
Replays contain an md5 hash of the .osu file they were played on. If the .osu is modified in any way, then the replay and score won't show up on the modified map.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Online offsets don't affect the replays themselves directly I believe, so if such things can be implemented online (the bpm fix, or the "offset at" idea I described before), then you wouldn't need a score wipe, nor will the replays go out of sync.
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
If "20% of maps are mistimed", then please list these 20%. Or don't make up false statistics.
statementreply
Pro Tester
307 posts
Joined June 2009
statementreply
20 most recently ranked beatmaps:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/72324 too early
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/73769 either bpm off or needs multiple sections
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/58787 a bit late
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/46862 too early
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/68717 a bit early
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/63233 bpm a bit fast
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/50453 too early (already fixed online)
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/59830 bpm a bit slow, offset too late on main timing section
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/70744 a bit late
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/72805 a bit early
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/60113 a bit early
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Small offset variations under 10ms are rankable.
As I said before, maps with bad offsets don't need to be reported here. Only if they have bad multi BPMs or just wrong BPMs. We can fix offsets already and the local offset already fixes the issue if the player wants to use it.
Sure
4,219 posts
Joined February 2009
Sure

statementreply wrote:

20 most recently ranked beatmaps:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/73769 either bpm off or needs multiple sections
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/63233 bpm a bit fast
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/59830 bpm a bit slow, offset too late on main timing section
Nah.. Are you sure about that BPM is wrong? I don't know how accurate you are, but I don't see any problem on those.
statementreply
Pro Tester
307 posts
Joined June 2009
statementreply

ykcarrot wrote:

Nah.. Are you sure about that BPM is wrong? I don't know how accurate you are, but I don't see any problem on those.

statementreply wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/73769 either bpm off or needs multiple sections
This one is off, but I'm not quite sure about the nature of off-timing

statementreply wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/63233 bpm a bit fast
~131.996 i.e. original bpm gradually getting ~6ms early throughout the song

statementreply wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/59830 bpm a bit slow, offset too late on main timing section
~120.003 i.e. original bpm gradually getting ~6ms late throughout the song
statementreply
Pro Tester
307 posts
Joined June 2009
statementreply

lolcubes wrote:

Small offset variations under 10ms are rankable.
As I said before, maps with bad offsets don't need to be reported here. Only if they have bad multi BPMs or just wrong BPMs. We can fix offsets already and the local offset already fixes the issue if the player wants to use it.
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/10435 wrong bpm and multiple offsets, LOTS of ranked plays
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/156 wrong bpm
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/3661 wrong bpm
... and more
Oinari-sama
osu! Alumni
3,403 posts
Joined July 2010
Oinari-sama
I face a different problem at the moment.

Previously I have as much time as needed to "tune" the offset as I play (eg +10ms, feel it, then trickle according to the feedback). But now I have to guess a value right at the beginning of the song and multiple restarts are required before I can get the value right. This is quite annoying for maps with no Skip button. Sorry I'm not so pro like some others who can sense a 1ms difference, I actually need to "tune" the offset as I play to guesstimate the right value.

Can we please have the old setup back?
Xivaxi
133 posts
Joined November 2011
Xivaxi
Is there any harm in letting us change it during breaks? I miss being able to tweak the offset without having to restart every time.
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
I initially removed this as some people were using it in dodgy ways (while macroing to make accuracy look more random), but I will allow changes during breaks in the next build.
Oinari-sama
osu! Alumni
3,403 posts
Joined July 2010
Oinari-sama

peppy wrote:

I initially removed this as some people were using it in dodgy ways (while macroing to make accuracy look more random), but I will allow changes during breaks in the next build.
Yes allow changes during breaks will be helpful. Is there any chance to extend this "grace period" to say the first 20-30 seconds? Assuming the non-skipable intro isn't too long, 30s should give ample time for those who genuinely need to "tune" the offset.
peppy
19,301 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
intro is not included
Winshley
osu! Alumni
2,384 posts
Joined May 2011
Winshley

MillhioreF wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/43
Highlighting this because I know how offtimed that map is.

I managed to SS that map because I used Local Offset wizard on the fly during gameplay: +30ms at start of map, +20ms while spinning the first spinner, +10ms on slider before 2nd spinner, and 0ms on slight pause before the 3rd (last) spinner.

I'm curious how this is going to happen later when the change takes place, though I would bet that score wipe is likely going to happen instead.


ykcarrot wrote:

I don't care about miss timed beatmaps. Just I can't adjust offset during testing in the middle of the map, it's really annoying.
Restore it please peppy
Perhaps enable local offset change all the time only in editor mode?
theowest
osu! Alumni
6,891 posts
Joined January 2009
theowest
I've never changed the local offset more than once while playing a beatmap. Mostly because I don't have the correct offsets written down, just don't bother to or I don't play beatmaps with such problems. Even if I do, I don't notice them, I just retry until I get decent accuracy.

Maybe we could have offset changing exceptions for these maps?
AndyPertamax
11 posts
Joined May 2012
AndyPertamax
I usually set offset while Autoplay, especially in osumania mode
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