It's not linear, in fact I didn't even said it was linear, I did said that improvement had a limit, and the closer you get to that limit the less improvement you will see in an "x" period of time.buny wrote:
Nobody streamed fast in the older days because no map required a fast stream speed
People learn to stream faster because of the faster tempo songs that are made in this day of age. That doesn't mean that it is a linear improvement.
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Nature or nurture?
posted
Total Posts
197
Is the abiliity to play osu! determined by nature or nurture?
Total votes: 154
I think it's nurture
So I'm wrong.
So I'm wrong.
wat.
I am sexy and I think it's nature
So since obviously no one has hit their skill cap and all people have the same genetic starting point, does that mean I can be Einstein?
Brb I'll be Einsteining over here.
Edit: god writing on my phone takes so much time ;_;
Brb I'll be Einsteining over here.
Edit: god writing on my phone takes so much time ;_;
I can say that if there is a limit, we are not even close to it. Some people generally develop faster in these games than others, but I don't believe people who are determined and willed enough to improve to the current "top-level" can hit a point where there is nothing left they can do to improve. This is especially true when the "top level" bar gets higher and higher and people get better and better spite already being at the top. Sure it's not easy to become top level, but it's never impossible.
About the conversation you people had in the previous pages, I think it's pretty clear that streaming 300bpm with a keyboard is pretty much impossible for long periods of time.
I mean seriously
I mean seriously
I think ur stupid. I can stream 340bpm for at least 40 notes. I think it's both because I was born an idiot but I lift.thelewa wrote:
About the conversation you people had in the previous pages, I think it's pretty clear that streaming 300bpm with a keyboard is pretty much impossible for long periods of time.
I mean seriously
I have to change my views on this matter a bit.
Lifting does indeed help.
Lifting does indeed help.
Yes that is why we need to "both" option. This thread is biased in either direction like a compass.thelewa wrote:
I have to change my views on this matter a bit.
Lifting does indeed help.
It should actually be "nurturing your talent" instead of just "nurture" or "nature".
Theoretically, you could keep improving for ever, but you will never be able to surpass that skill cap, so it's like let's say, your skill cap is 3. at first you improve a lot, like you start with 0, then you improve 1.5, then 0.9, then 0.4, then 0.01, then 0.0001, you start improving less, because what you improve at first is the basics, how to jump, how to stream, then you improve large aspects of that, faster and more precise jumping, faster streaming, then you keep on improving on details, and then it's just polishing details, so improvement is less everytime, and you will never reach 3.Mithost wrote:
I can say that if there is a limit, we are not even close to it. Some people generally develop faster in these games than others, but I don't believe people who are determined and willed enough to improve to the current "top-level" can hit a point where there is nothing left they can do to improve. This is especially true when the "top level" bar gets higher and higher and people get better and better spite already being at the top. Sure it's not easy to become top level, but it's never impossible.
That's my thought about this.
Exactly what I think, thanks for putting words on this loldruidxd wrote:
Theoretically, you could keep improving for ever, but you will never be able to surpass that skill cap, so it's like let's say, your skill cap is 3. at first you improve a lot, like you start with 0, then you improve 1.5, then 0.9, then 0.4, then 0.01, then 0.0001, you start improving less, because what you improve at first is the basics, how to jump, how to stream, then you improve large aspects of that, faster and more precise jumping, faster streaming, then you keep on improving on details, and then it's just polishing details, so improvement is less everytime, and you will never reach 3.
That's my thought about this.
Skill cap is like Asymptote in math; you can improve forever, but you'll never reach that skill cap.
When you first start osu!, you do progress quickly, and in like 1-2 months for the common people you start FCing easier insanes without much problems, but over the time, even if you still doing progress, it become smaller and smaller.
Some people have the skill cap higher than others, that's unfair, but life is unfair.
I know I'll never be as good as the top players are, (mainly because of my carpal tunnel >.>) but it doesn't mean I'll never be good at this game.
1-2 months for easier insanes? i guess im not a common person
It's not like the progress become smaller, but the amount of effort needed to progress greatly increases. For example between passing some crazy song 95% and SSing (just compare rrtyu and cookie) is a huge skill difference and it's about equal to moving from [Easy] to those 95%. Same as leveling 100-101 > 1-100.GoldenWolf wrote:
but over the time, even if you still doing progress, it become smaller and smaller.
And of course we're somehow limited in Osu! because after all it's just a game about clicking circles and some of us might take it too serious (and that's logical with the amount of time we put into it). We can't dedicate all our lifes playing it, but it's not the reason to quit now. Life itself is pointless so just have fun while you can.
What ? I can jump to the moon if i train 100,000 years ? Oh wait, maybe i will live until 100 years old, or my bone break first. << Isn't this the limit ?. Sure you will learn something new, don't forget you will forget something. The skills you learned over time will also slowly be 'deleted' from your brain. So, if you improve slower den the deletion, it is limit right ?
You can't train to jump to the moon because you, in your current human body state, won't be able to reach the force needed to defeat gravity, also you will need a constant force that negates the gravitational acceleration and pushes you "up", there is no way that your body can provide such an amount of force for that, that's your limit, but you can train to jump higher or longer than other people, that's what some olympics games are about, pushing yourself to your physical limit.Maneuver wrote:
What ? I can jump to the moon if i train 100,000 years ? Oh wait, maybe i will live until 100 years old, or my bone break first. << Isn't this the limit ?. Sure you will learn something new, don't forget you will forget something. The skills you learned over time will also slowly be 'deleted' from your brain. So, if you improve slower den the deletion, it is limit right ?
Another example of nature over nurture is Usain Bolt, now that I think about it, his body is perfect for running, and because of that he gets a nature advantage over others in for example, the olympic games, and his advanteges didn't make a great difference until he had developed his skill high enough, reaching his physical limit, or skill cap.
The "forget" factor is something that happens, for example, players get used to playing AR10, then they don't play as good as they would expect on lower AR (9/8/7), but they can re-learn how to play on those AR's faster than they did learn it the first time, so it shouldn't be a limit.
Pretty sure this is possible at 1.1x
I've measured approximately how much time does it take for him to press 100 times a single key by that method, he started at 0:46, and ended at 0:53, that's 7 seconds, so:ziin wrote:
Pretty sure this is possible at 1.1x
In 7 seconds he pressed 100 times a single key
In 1 second he pressed X times a single key.
1x100 = 100
100/7 = X = 14,285 approx, we can say it's between 14 and 14,5 but not much more than that, just because youtube time system doesn't show miliseconds.
And he's doing that "shivering" method that I described earlier.
So he basically can do:
14,285 x 60 = 857
857 / 4 = 214,275 bpm 1/4ths stream by singletapping.
It's really fun to calculate all this
druidxd wrote:
I've measured approximately how much time does it take for him to press 100 times a single key by that method, he started at 0:46, and ended at 0:53, that's 7 seconds, so:
In 7 seconds he pressed 100 times a single key
In 1 second he pressed X times a single key.
1x100 = 100
100/7 = X = 14,285 approx, we can say it's between 14 and 14,5 but not much more than that, just because youtube time system doesn't show miliseconds.
And he's doing that "shivering" method that I described earlier.
So he basically can do:
14,285 x 60 = 857
857 / 4 = 214,275 bpm 1/4ths stream by singletapping.
It's really fun to calculate all this
lol, made my day.Soly wrote:
druidxd wrote:
I've measured approximately how much time does it take for him to press 100 times a single key by that method, he started at 0:46, and ended at 0:53, that's 7 seconds, so:
In 7 seconds he pressed 100 times a single key
In 1 second he pressed X times a single key.
1x100 = 100
100/7 = X = 14,285 approx, we can say it's between 14 and 14,5 but not much more than that, just because youtube time system doesn't show miliseconds.
And he's doing that "shivering" method that I described earlier.
So he basically can do:
14,285 x 60 = 857
857 / 4 = 214,275 bpm 1/4ths stream by singletapping.
It's really fun to calculate all this
Question was about one's ability to play osu not be a god at osu... Anyone can do anything with practice even if limits are different. Nurture hands down.
No, it was to play osu! at high levelJayO wrote:
Question was about one's ability to play osu not be a god at osu... Anyone can do anything with practice even if limits are different. Nurture hands down.
That last two things that I underlined was basically the big discussion that I had on this thread.LaVolpe024 wrote:
This thread idea came to me because of thelewa and the Aqo kid having a squabble.
Many people genuinely believe that the ability to play osu! at a high level is a gift, not something that can be developed. They feel inclined to accept the idea that being a skilled player has more to do with genetics and raw talent than anything else. With this belief comes the notion that every player has a physical limit to their skill and capacity to play the game.
On the other hand there are players who believe that the skill can be developed through adequate practice and that it is not necessarily something you are born with. With this belief comes the notion that every player has a seemingly limitless capacity to play the game.
Nature or nurture? Discuss.
I consider high level play what others call "pro", so high level play would include players like Cookiezi, Niko, rrtyui, SapphireGhost, WhiteWolf, thelewa, and a lot of others high level players, excluding of course, most of us, average players.
And that is why we can only "discuss". You'll never be even close to understanding your limits, until you actually hit "dat top-lvl play". Which is close to impossible for most of players, cause they just don't lift train hard.druidxd wrote:
excluding of course, most of us, average players.
Wake up, dude. Not everyone blames nature for doing badly. Higher % of plays usually shows a high motivation to improve, it shows one's patience and will to progress faster than others. It might also show that you're a fking nerd and have lots of free timeAqo wrote:
No matter what you say, people haven't come close to limits yet.
Things that look impossible to you now will become standard once players who play seriously will play more and improve more.
Trying to blame your inability to do stuff on nature is basically looking for excuses to not having nurtured enough.
Oh, my mistake didn't read it fully x.x Guess I would have to swing with nature then...druidxd wrote:
No, it was to play osu! at high levelJayO wrote:
Question was about one's ability to play osu not be a god at osu... Anyone can do anything with practice even if limits are different. Nurture hands down.LaVolpe024 wrote:
This thread idea came to me because of thelewa and the Aqo kid having a squabble.
Many people genuinely believe that the ability to play osu! at a high level is a gift, not something that can be developed. They feel inclined to accept the idea that being a skilled player has more to do with genetics and raw talent than anything else. With this belief comes the notion that every player has a physical limit to their skill and capacity to play the game.
On the other hand there are players who believe that the skill can be developed through adequate practice and that it is not necessarily something you are born with. With this belief comes the notion that every player has a seemingly limitless capacity to play the game.
Nature or nurture? Discuss.
I remember watching national geographic (if not wrong on tv) about athlete and doing research on Usain Bolt (on genetic). The other world pro runner said: We can't seem to improve anymore on our speed. But man, look at Usain Bolt, he runs much faster than us and there is still much more room for improvement. (Something Close to this). The other runner also train like hell everyday but not even close to Usain. Nature wins.druidxd wrote:
Another example of nature over nurture is Usain Bolt, now that I think about it, his body is perfect for running, and because of that he gets a nature advantage over others in for example, the olympic games, and his advanteges didn't make a great difference until he had developed his skill high enough, reaching his physical limit, or skill cap.
That series also says, the genetic of athlete is becoming pro-er and pro-er over the decade. There is more and more equipment helping to train athlete but genetic is still the one calling the shot who will be better or not.
So what's the point of this thread again?
There should be a both option.
There should be a both option.
Your lifestyle, diet, physical activities outside of osu, your perception of the world, etc all influences the way you improve in osu!. It's not hereditary, it's physiology.
Some call it talents.
tl;dr: your past experience will influence the way you improve in osu, some call it talents.
Some call it talents.
tl;dr: your past experience will influence the way you improve in osu, some call it talents.
Just adding on to what you said.Maneuver wrote:
druidxd wrote:
Another example of nature over nurture is Usain Bolt, now that I think about it, his body is perfect for running, and because of that he gets a nature advantage over others in for example, the olympic games, and his advanteges didn't make a great difference until he had developed his skill high enough, reaching his physical limit, or skill cap.
I remember watching national geographic (if not wrong on tv) about athlete and doing research on Usain Bolt (on genetic). The other world pro runner said: We can't seem to improve anymore on our speed. But man, look at Usain Bolt, he runs much faster than us and there is still much more room for improvement. (Something Close to this). The other runner also train like hell everyday but not even close to Usain. Nature wins.
That series also says, the genetic of athlete is becoming pro-er and pro-er over the decade. There is more and more equipment helping to train athlete but genetic is still the one calling the shot who will be better or not.
Usain Bolt probably has a genetic advantage of having more fast twitch muscle fibers, similar to Manny paquaio (sorry if I spelt that wrong). How else do you think that little guy can through such fast punches. Of course training is involved so both Nature and Nurture take part here, but just wanted to get my point across that genetics are critical.
I'd add a "Both" option to the poll, but apparently doing so would reset the votes already on it. Considering there's already over 100 votes, that doesn't exactly seem like a wise course of action!
Topic Starter
This has already been settled. Yeah that'd be nice for a debate wouldn't it, if everybody just agreed with both sides.
Also, please don't edit anything. I know you derive some strange form of pleasure out of having the rights to do that but please don't.LaVolpe024 wrote:
No sitting on the fence. If you feel both then decide which one is a greater factor in determining skill.
The point is, training is crucial for developing to become a great player, but the best players, the highest level play will be defined by "genetic advantages", you can go closer to them, but if they keep on training you won't be able to achieve what they can, but you still can achieve awesome things.
So yes, high level play can be achieve by both nurture and nature (although being naturally good still requires you to practice), but the highest level play is defined by nature over nurture (knowing that practicing is still required).
*Edit*: I say this because high level play can be considered to, for example, include people that aren't as talented as the best players (Niko, Cookiezi, rrtyui), but still are at the top 1000 or 500 (like me for example, I guess I can be considered high level player for some people, or at least above average idk, although I don't consider myself a high level player)
My vote still goes to Nature
So yes, high level play can be achieve by both nurture and nature (although being naturally good still requires you to practice), but the highest level play is defined by nature over nurture (knowing that practicing is still required).
*Edit*: I say this because high level play can be considered to, for example, include people that aren't as talented as the best players (Niko, Cookiezi, rrtyui), but still are at the top 1000 or 500 (like me for example, I guess I can be considered high level player for some people, or at least above average idk, although I don't consider myself a high level player)
My vote still goes to Nature
None of them are independent factors so my vote is for both.LaVolpe024 wrote:
No sitting on the fence. If you feel both then decide which one is a greater factor in determining skill.
Topic Starter
Then which one would you say has a greater influence over the other?
Haha, greater influence is still nurture, because it is something we can control =SLaVolpe024 wrote:
Then which one would you say has a greater influence over the other?
she_old
You need a lot of practice to reach your limit, but nature still defines your limit. We still can achieve really high level play by practicing a lot, but the top will always be talented ones.she wrote:
Unless you need little nurture to reach your nature's limit.