Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.

Aqo wrote:

Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.

what a stupid thing to say.

"Everbody who says nurture has an higher percent than nature just doesn't want to believe that their suckage will never fade away"

Tanzklaue wrote:

"Everbody who says nurture has an higher percent than nature just doesn't want to believe that their suckage will never fade away"

What a stupid thing to say. That doesn't even make sense. Everybody who trains at something gets better at it with no exceptions.

Aqo wrote:

Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.

What about people with insanely high IQ's? What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting? What about people who have beard growing contests? What about people born without certain body ligiments?

EDIT: I love you aqo, just something to think about.

Soly wrote:

What about people with insanely high IQ's? What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting? What about people who have beard growing contests? What about people born without certain body ligiments?

What does any of this have to do with your ability to click on circles

GOD DAMNIT LEWA STOP POSTING RIGHT AFTER I HIT EDIT OMG YOU'RE DOING THIS ON PURPOSE meh

Soly wrote:

Aqo wrote:

Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.

What about people with insanely high IQ's? What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting? What about people who have beard growing contests? What about people born without certain body ligiments?

That's ingenious.

Also, to simplify matters for Aqo, talent is not some sort of magical voodoo thing that makes a person better at something. Think about how every person is different from each other (their bodies are different, their minds are different) and think about how they are better or worse at something because of this. Take it up to 11 and you have found what talent is.

That's a really simplified explanation, though.

Yes lewa I understand perfectly well what you mean.

However being talented in osu would mean what, being born with better... wrists? Better eyesight?
As long as your body is capable of moving a finger up and down and perceiving the difference between a circle and the background you have all the tools you need to train and get as good as cookiezi or better.

Why wrists?

Because a stronger wrist allows to aim more consistently and hit buttons consistently for longer without getting tired.

Except wrist strength is trainable and it's not something people are born with particularly significant different levels on.

It's a matter of both. They aren't mutually exclusive.
Have you heard of "squandered talent" ?

Having talent still requires practice.

Aeidxst wrote:

Ability is just a shortcut.

For everyone else it takes longer.

Aqo wrote:

Yes lewa I understand perfectly well what you mean.

However being talented in osu would mean what, being born with better... wrists? Better eyesight?
As long as your body is capable of moving a finger up and down and perceiving the difference between a circle and the background you have all the tools you need to train and get as good as cookiezi or better.

I think it's more to do with your mind than your physical strength.

Aqo wrote:

Tanzklaue wrote:

"Everbody who says nurture has an higher percent than nature just doesn't want to believe that their suckage will never fade away"

What a stupid thing to say. That doesn't even make sense. Everybody who trains at something gets better at it with no exceptions.

I put in quotas because it's stupid, I don't think that way myself. I just wanted to show you that your statement is on a similar level of stupidity. I think that I suck, and that it is clearly because of lack of practice and motivation, and everytime I play I have the feeling I should be much better at this than I am. but this game jsut doesn't do it for me anymore, so I don't think I will ever get my full potential released; whereever it might have been.

and being talented in osu means:
-superior sense of rhythm
-easy adapting to spacing
-faster learning of speed
-mindsetting to never give up

Soly wrote:

What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting?EDIT: I love you aqo, just something to think about

one day an african will come and take Cookiezi place, one day.

edit: also it would be SOOOOO great to hear what Cookiezi thinks about this , sadly his not talented for speaking english

Liutprando wrote:

Soly wrote:

What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting?EDIT: I love you aqo, just something to think about

one day an african will come and take Cookiezi place, one day.

edit: also it would be SOOOOO great to hear what Cookiezi thinks about this , sadly his not talented for speaking english

I'm still trying to find a real "African" who plays osu!

Just deal with it, if you compare two people that play osu! under the same hardware to avoid FPS difference, cursor lag and such, with the same keyboard and tablet, and both have the exact same playstyle, if one has better reflexes and stamina, their skill cap WILL be higher, cause he can react faster and last longer than the other one. The way I see it is like comparing two different PCs that share the exact same software (being the software the comparison to having the same input devices on players, tablet, keyboard and also PC.), one has better hardware than the other (because of their "talent"), they both have the same software, the one with better hardware will win EVERY test, simple as that.

Achieven high level play CAN be done by practicing, and even if you are talented you need to practice, but the skill cap on every player is different, and talented ones WILL have a higher skill cap, because their body has more potential.

I hope that explained my point of view.

Tanzklaue wrote:

and being talented in osu means:
-superior sense of rhythm
-easy adapting to spacing
-faster learning of speed
-mindsetting to never give up

thelewa wrote:

I think it's more to do with your mind than your physical strength.

Wouldn't you say that a player's mindset, motivation and mental approach to the game can only be nurtured?

Also, this was intended to be a debate. I know some of you struggle to accept that other people think in a different manner from you but please try to keep the discussion constructive as opposed to the usual "you're stupid for saying that" and "wow you idiot". Respect each other's opinions.

LaVolpe024 wrote:

thelewa wrote:

I think it's more to do with your mind than your physical strength.

Wouldn't you say that a player's mindset, motivation and mental approach to the game can only be nurtured?

Some people can naturally comprehend more things at a time than others, and do it faster. This can be trained to a certain degree, but there's no making a genius out of a person who wasn't born one. Trust me, I know this better than anyone else since my parents tried to make me one.

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Nature determines how high your skill cap is.
Nurture only determines how close to it you will get.

It is naive to assume that everyone is on equal footing in osu! or any other thing for that matter.

Also wrong nurturing can bring down the skill cap.
I forgot to mention this.

Tanzklaue wrote:

Aqo wrote:

Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.

what a stupid thing to say.

"Everbody who says nurture has an higher percent than nature just doesn't want to believe that their suckage will never fade away"

I dun understand this, by knowing you are not as talented as others, you know/acknowledge you have to train more harder than the talented person to be at the same level or surpass him.

loseri wrote:

Also wrong nurturing can bring down the skill cap.
I forgot to mention this.

How to define this? Playing Easy/Normals for too long could get you too used to playing these difficulties. Playing Insanes off-the-bat, or difficulties that are too hard for you on a regular basis could also be counter-productive.

While I agree with what you are saying... I don't know "which way the scale tips." - Probably both ways.

It's more like also considering playing the same map over & over again such as trying to FC something over a long period of time. Repetitive playing also counts as wrong nuturing because intended action from a normal player would to be moving on & playing a different map, only to come back to the map that has troubled them before.

RaneFire wrote:

loseri wrote:

Also wrong nurturing can bring down the skill cap.
I forgot to mention this.

How to define this?

Like spamming impossible stuff since the start.
Doing stuff that gives you bad habits.

8 pages wow.. I'm kinda late but still want to share my opinion.
There're kinda three aspects which makes people "different" in any kind of competition (let's say things like settings and stuff are already in ideal point):

Intelligence capacities
Determines the effectiveness of your learning process. Can be practiced by learning new things and doing math.
Physical capacities
Determines your physical limits. Obviously, can be practiced. do u even lift?
Mental capacities
Determines your goals and the amount of effort you put to achieve them. Can be changed by reprioritizing.

Why are some people better than others from the beginning?
-because the actual beginning begins not when you made an Osu! account or started lifting everyday but from your birth. You gain any kind of experience and having practice the whole life in many "not direct" ways. You train reaction playing ping-pong, sense of rhytm - playing musical instruments, fingers agility and speed - pressing keys in another games, coordination - juggling balls etc. you can even train your patience just being patient. Learning new things requires different skills some of which you already could own at pretty high level from learning another things. African people are physically stronger others because they have different living conditions that forces them to be strong, means they've just had more physical practice than others.

That's why everyone has a different starting point and learning speed. And that means if the skill cap is exist it's the same for everyone.
So the person you call talented simpy had more practice in any of those 3 aspects mentioned above.

Yes, animals and even humans doing same things for ages can evolute to do it even better (like again african people) but is veeery unnoticeable because it takes like thousands of years and evolving group must be fully isolated from other people.

tl;dr: Nurture, totally agree with Aqo.
sry for poor engrish ;_;

enik wrote:

8 pages wow.. I'm kinda late but still want to share my opinion.
There're kinda three aspects which makes people "different" in any kind of competition (let's say things like settings and stuff are already in ideal point):

Intelligence capacities
Determines the effectiveness of your learning process. Can be practiced by learning new things and doing math.
Physical capacities
Determines your physical limits. Obviously, can be practiced. do u even lift?
Mental capacities
Determines your goals and the amount of effort you put to achieve them. Can be changed by reprioritizing.

Why are some people better than others from the beginning?
-because the actual beginning begins not when you made an Osu! account or started lifting everyday but from your birth. You gain any kind of experience and having practice the whole life in many "not direct" ways. You train reaction playing ping-pong, sense of rhytm - playing musical instruments, fingers agility and speed - pressing keys in another games, coordination - juggling balls etc. you can even train your patience just being patient. Learning new things requires different skills some of which you already could own at pretty high level from learning another things. African people are physically stronger others because they have different living conditions that forces them to be strong, means they've just had more physical practice than others.

That's why everyone has a different starting point and learning speed. And that means if the skill cap is exist it's the same for everyone.
So the person you call talented simpy had more practice in any of those 3 aspects mentioned above.

Yes, animals and even humans doing same things for ages can evolute to do it even better (like again african people) but is veeery unnoticeable because it takes like thousands of years and evolving group must be fully isolated from other people.

tl;dr: Nurture, totally agree with Aqo.
sry for poor engrish ;_;

yes Yes YES, I absolutely agree, this thread was lacking a post like this one!

Hika wrote:

It's more like also considering playing the same map over & over again such as trying to FC something over a long period of time. Repetitive playing also counts as wrong nuturing because intended action from a normal player would to be moving on & playing a different map, only to come back to the map that has troubled them before.

I disagree. Sometimes I play a map 100 times in a row for whatever reason and I really dont mind retrying and replaying and in the end I only noticed positive things from it (that I could notice, because noticing when you get better is really damn hard after a certain point). I guess it comes down to the mindset and I am a very patient person.

lolcubes wrote:

Hika wrote:

It's more like also considering playing the same map over & over again such as trying to FC something over a long period of time. Repetitive playing also counts as wrong nuturing because intended action from a normal player would to be moving on & playing a different map, only to come back to the map that has troubled them before.

I disagree. Sometimes I play a map 100 times in a row for whatever reason and I really dont mind retrying and replaying and in the end I only noticed positive things from it (that I could notice, because noticing when you get better is really damn hard after a certain point). I guess it comes down to the mindset and I am a very patient person.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Some people are capable of that, which I forgot to point out in my earlier post. I'm one of those people where playing a map over & over again isn't helpful & it permanently damages my ability to play it ever again.

SteRRuM wrote:

enik wrote:

8 pages wow.. I'm kinda late but still want to share my opinion.
There're kinda three aspects which makes people "different" in any kind of competition (let's say things like settings and stuff are already in ideal point):

Intelligence capacities
Determines the effectiveness of your learning process. Can be practiced by learning new things and doing math.
Physical capacities
Determines your physical limits. Obviously, can be practiced. do u even lift?
Mental capacities
Determines your goals and the amount of effort you put to achieve them. Can be changed by reprioritizing.

Why are some people better than others from the beginning?
-because the actual beginning begins not when you made an Osu! account or started lifting everyday but from your birth. You gain any kind of experience and having practice the whole life in many "not direct" ways. You train reaction playing ping-pong, sense of rhytm - playing musical instruments, fingers agility and speed - pressing keys in another games, coordination - juggling balls etc. you can even train your patience just being patient. Learning new things requires different skills some of which you already could own at pretty high level from learning another things. African people are physically stronger others because they have different living conditions that forces them to be strong, means they've just had more physical practice than others.

That's why everyone has a different starting point and learning speed. And that means if the skill cap is exist it's the same for everyone.
So the person you call talented simpy had more practice in any of those 3 aspects mentioned above.

Yes, animals and even humans doing same things for ages can evolute to do it even better (like again african people) but is veeery unnoticeable because it takes like thousands of years and evolving group must be fully isolated from other people.

tl;dr: Nurture, totally agree with Aqo.
sry for poor engrish ;_;

yes Yes YES, I absolutely agree, this thread was lacking a post like this one!

also agree

sure some people have "genetic advantages" over others, but that just means more effort will have to be put in. you'll never get anywhere in anything putting the blame on genetics, construing hindrance as unbreakable barriers. and hey you might not see improvement right away, or you might fail despite putting in all that effort, but the moment when it does pay off gives one of the best feelings in the world

I sure do hate the feeling of having to maintain a pace daily to not lose any skill and barely gain any while playing.
I hate the feeling even more of losing the ability to play the less I play at like a 50x the rate I gain any skill.

I'm glad that I gave up playing to improve and went to 100% playing for fun.

I have no skill to lose in the first place

ew huge-ass name pls
ew bany wai

There is a lot of thought being put into this when I think it's rather simple. If you have natural talents, as the top players do, you will automatically be above average players. You can practice to try to make yourself as good as the top players (such as what I try to do ;_;), but in the end you will be expending a lot more time and effort to come even close to their level (or to be well below it such as I am).

tl;dr Practice is good and all, but those at the top of the totem pole will always be there.

loseri wrote:

ew huge-ass name pls
ew bany wai

i disliek peple jacking my avatar all the time lol

Aqo wrote:

Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.

That's not even an argument. It's a simplified point of view that fits your opinion, which you're trying to defend. It's just naive to think that everyone has the same skill cap from the start. Nobody disagrees that nurturing helps to improve thou.

Goodbye Shin wrote:

Aqo wrote:

Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.

That's not even an argument. It's a simplified point of view that fits your opinion, which you're trying to defend. It's just naive to think that everyone has the same skill cap from the start. Nobody disagrees that nurturing helps to improve thou.

It's naive to think there's a skill cap at all, because nobody has hit a skill cap yet.

Nobody.

Dudes

what if everyone has actually hit their skillcap

and the game is just being made easier every day

what a conspiracy

idk Aqo, jesse has sucked pretty bad for the entire last half of this year

In response to lewa: Yeah Scarlet Rose suddenly because easier in the last year, that's why Cookiezi was able to HR it now.

And Jappy jesse said doukoku was too fast than to be fun and that it's impossible to singletap like a few months ago when it was just submitted and now in the last week he singletapped it.

You don't improve overnight unless you practice correctly and focus on specific things one at a time but it happens over time and eventually you go back to old maps that used to be hard for you and suddenly realize they feel normal or even too easy.

jesse used to be such a noob like 6-8 months ago, now he's touched by jesus.