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Nature or nurture?

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Is the abiliity to play osu! determined by nature or nurture?

Nature
72
46.75%
Nurture
82
53.25%
Total votes: 154
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thelewa

Sorun wrote:

Genetic advantages are a fact of life.
Apparently some people just don't want to accept it.
winber1
both
MillhioreF
To echo some sentiments said in this thread:

A normal person who tries hard can beat a talented person who doesn't.
A normal person absolutely cannot beat a talented person who tries their hardest.
At equal levels of effort and practice, a talented person will always beat a normal person.

This applies to both physical and mental capacities. Obviously, practice is required to get good at something (nurture), but a talented person can improve faster and reach a higher maximum potential (nature). Having one is better than having none, and having both is best. The only difference is that practice can be acquired at any time while talent can't.
she_old

buny wrote:

Nature because I naturally suck
ur bst pro <З33зЗ3ззЗЗ3ЗэЭэЭ

Pettanko wrote:

It's just ten percent luck
Twenty percent skill
Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
Five percent pleasure
Fifty percent pain
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name
Read my mind. 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)

hinaskye wrote:

Well it is true some people have a better rhythm sense than others, but that doesnt mean the ones that don't can't FC a insane map, it just means they have better accuracy. Out of most of my friends, i prob have a better rhythm sense which may have came from playing other music games beforehand. I totally suck at streams but i feel im getting the hang of getting 300s short streams and still working on it.

In a general sense, i really believe to be a more higher skilled player, its all about practise and how much time they spend on osu!, although not eveyone will start off from the same level and grow at the same rate. I can't say anything about playing HR or DT on insane maps, cause at present that seems totally impossible to me, but i think i will get there eventually.
But eventually being able to fc insanes with DT or HR or even both of the mods combined becomes worthless due to the need of accuracy, I can fc most insanes with hr and sometimes dt, but getting low accuracy like 85% makes it so inferior compared to a nomod SS.
Hika
Just think of this as survival of the fittest.
we would die compared to top 100
gg no re
Goodbye Shin
I'd say Nature. Because talented people improve faster in many things (not just clicking circles). Of course, you'll need a TON of practice and patience to develop your talent, but the theory that EVERY person CAN achieve everything is wrong from the very beginning. It's an utopia, which has nothing to do with reality. A talented person which invests the same amount of time in practice will always end up higher than the less talented one. That's life.
buny
tru pros r ones touchd by loser and cookiezi
druidxd
Going for nature, I mean, yes you can improve by playing a lot, but some people have better reflexes (response time), some have better control over their body, better rhythm. Overall if a "talented" player plays exactly the same as a normal player, odds are that the talented one will be way better than the normal one, simply because he get better faster because he doesn't need to train his reflexes, rhythm, or get used to hovering for example as much as a normal player.

Both can be pro, but the talented one will probably be better if they both play the same amount of time/songs.
Mythras
osu! skill breakdown:

10% natural skill
10% settings/tweaks being optimal
80% practice (can compensate for lack of natural skill)

What puts cookiezi past WW and other top players? Probably the natural skill. Some people are born with more patience and the ability to focus harder. These people are usually asian. =P

I'll use myself as an example. At first I started playing osu! with my Korean friend, we both played a normal map till we passed it, took me like 100 tries, took him 30-35, it wasn't an easy normal (lol). We did lots of MP and I noticed him SSing some of our maps in the next week, I was like OMG YOU SS'd THAT! etc. Took me ages to SS anything (I got much better with practice though). He naturally just destroyed me in skill. But with a tremendous effort I got near his level but his accuracy is still crazy.

I also played with a Japanese friend, he was able to do things on flashlight with 1/10th the amount of tries as me with 5x the amount of plays.

For reference, I'm very good at FPS games, like instantly dominate games i've never played before, top frags etc, and my korean friend is amazing at puzzle games, rpgs, and fighting games. Japanese friend was okay at fps.

Thinking back, i've always been good at fps, and my friend has always been good at fighters, he probably had innate rhythm talent too.
Naikaze

jesus1412 wrote:

Cookiezi is nature. People with crazy as shit accuracy are nature. Everything else can be learnt.

That's what I think.
^

I think it should be nature
Soly
Obviously it's all genetics and background. You just have to work with what you've got. There are different areas to excel at in osu:

- Snapping/movement/cursor dancing (in the end it doesn't matter how you move, but hey it adds your unique signature to your replays)
- Accuracy (getting that perfect hit within the millisecond)
- Focus (allowing your mind to focus solely on playing)
- Reading (confusing patterns and overlapping notes, fast or slow AR)
- Spinning (clockwise/anti clockwise, consistently under stressful areas of a map)
- Endurance (maintaining focus for extended periods, playing for several hours a day without getting bored)
- Stamina (how consistent you are under stressful play)
- Aim (tiny circles, difficult angles, wide distances)
- Reaction speed (how fast you respond to sudden activity, can be overcome with memory or predicting the next note(reading))
- Streaming (consistency, speed, alternating, single tapping)
- Memory (how fast you can memorize something in the least amount of plays possible, how many things stay permanently stored in your memory eg. a difficult section of a map)
- Adapting (to sudden changes, a new input device)

There are probably a few others aswell. Most likely how you first start playing the game has an effect on how you will turn out. Training may help with your weak areas, but you won't be better than somebody who excels in certain areas no matter how much you "nurture" it. Also your input device will obviously help with the physical side of things, I won't even go into how many areas there are regarding input device.

Then you've got things like posture, ergonomics EG (A player sitting up straight will do better than a player who is slouching). The way you grip your input device, height of the desk you play on. How far away you sit from the desk, Computers fps and specs, your monitors refresh rate, how tired you are. The length of your fingers (may affect streaming speed), whether you sweat alot (grip). What type of headphones you have. How well your right brain co-exists with your left brain during play (this will have an obvious affect on confusing stream notes such as dj pops streams) etc etc etc



tl;dr: Nature.
Antero
Nature.

If it was nurture then many people would have outskilled cookiezi.

Cookiezi is "that special player". Every game has 1
xsrsbsns
Nurture plays a huge role but nature will always be the limiting factor, always.
Maneuver
Nurturing you nature skill, reaching nature skill limit.Then ? Transcending nature limit by tons of nurturing, just to get 0.01% more ? Don't know if there is someone has just only discovered new innert nature on very late stages, or altered or created new nature.
buny

Maneuver wrote:

Nurturing you nature skill, reaching nature skill limit.Then ? Transcending nature limit by tons of nurturing, just to get 0.01% more ? Don't know if there is someone has just only discovered new innert nature on very late stages, or altered or created new nature.
I agree.
Jordan

Kanye West wrote:

20% nature, 80% nurture
Same, also for the "put 2 people, make them train 2 months and see the results" there are too many factors influencing that in the game, like FPS in game (low fps = cursor lag) playing devices, mood, physical conditions ecc...
Aeidxst
Ability is just a shortcut.
Aqo
Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
Tanzklaue

Aqo wrote:

Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
what a stupid thing to say.

"Everbody who says nurture has an higher percent than nature just doesn't want to believe that their suckage will never fade away"
Aqo

Tanzklaue wrote:

"Everbody who says nurture has an higher percent than nature just doesn't want to believe that their suckage will never fade away"
What a stupid thing to say. That doesn't even make sense. Everybody who trains at something gets better at it with no exceptions.
Soly

Aqo wrote:

Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
What about people with insanely high IQ's? What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting? What about people who have beard growing contests? What about people born without certain body ligiments?

EDIT: I love you aqo, just something to think about.
Aqo

Soly wrote:

What about people with insanely high IQ's? What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting? What about people who have beard growing contests? What about people born without certain body ligiments?
What does any of this have to do with your ability to click on circles

GOD DAMNIT LEWA STOP POSTING RIGHT AFTER I HIT EDIT OMG YOU'RE DOING THIS ON PURPOSE meh
thelewa

Soly wrote:

Aqo wrote:

Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
What about people with insanely high IQ's? What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting? What about people who have beard growing contests? What about people born without certain body ligiments?
That's ingenious.

Also, to simplify matters for Aqo, talent is not some sort of magical voodoo thing that makes a person better at something. Think about how every person is different from each other (their bodies are different, their minds are different) and think about how they are better or worse at something because of this. Take it up to 11 and you have found what talent is.

That's a really simplified explanation, though.
Aqo
Yes lewa I understand perfectly well what you mean.

However being talented in osu would mean what, being born with better... wrists? Better eyesight?
As long as your body is capable of moving a finger up and down and perceiving the difference between a circle and the background you have all the tools you need to train and get as good as cookiezi or better.
lolcubes
Why wrists?
Aqo
Because a stronger wrist allows to aim more consistently and hit buttons consistently for longer without getting tired.

Except wrist strength is trainable and it's not something people are born with particularly significant different levels on.
RaneFire
It's a matter of both. They aren't mutually exclusive.
Have you heard of "squandered talent" ?

Having talent still requires practice.

Aeidxst wrote:

Ability is just a shortcut.
For everyone else it takes longer.
thelewa

Aqo wrote:

Yes lewa I understand perfectly well what you mean.

However being talented in osu would mean what, being born with better... wrists? Better eyesight?
As long as your body is capable of moving a finger up and down and perceiving the difference between a circle and the background you have all the tools you need to train and get as good as cookiezi or better.
I think it's more to do with your mind than your physical strength.
Tanzklaue

Aqo wrote:

Tanzklaue wrote:

"Everbody who says nurture has an higher percent than nature just doesn't want to believe that their suckage will never fade away"
What a stupid thing to say. That doesn't even make sense. Everybody who trains at something gets better at it with no exceptions.
I put in quotas because it's stupid, I don't think that way myself. I just wanted to show you that your statement is on a similar level of stupidity. I think that I suck, and that it is clearly because of lack of practice and motivation, and everytime I play I have the feeling I should be much better at this than I am. but this game jsut doesn't do it for me anymore, so I don't think I will ever get my full potential released; whereever it might have been.

and being talented in osu means:
-superior sense of rhythm
-easy adapting to spacing
-faster learning of speed
-mindsetting to never give up
Liut

Soly wrote:

What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting?EDIT: I love you aqo, just something to think about
one day an african will come and take Cookiezi place, one day.

edit: also it would be SOOOOO great to hear what Cookiezi thinks about this , sadly his not talented for speaking english :| :|
RaneFire

Liutprando wrote:

Soly wrote:

What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting?EDIT: I love you aqo, just something to think about
one day an african will come and take Cookiezi place, one day.

edit: also it would be SOOOOO great to hear what Cookiezi thinks about this , sadly his not talented for speaking english :| :|
I'm still trying to find a real "African" who plays osu!
druidxd
Just deal with it, if you compare two people that play osu! under the same hardware to avoid FPS difference, cursor lag and such, with the same keyboard and tablet, and both have the exact same playstyle, if one has better reflexes and stamina, their skill cap WILL be higher, cause he can react faster and last longer than the other one. The way I see it is like comparing two different PCs that share the exact same software (being the software the comparison to having the same input devices on players, tablet, keyboard and also PC.), one has better hardware than the other (because of their "talent"), they both have the same software, the one with better hardware will win EVERY test, simple as that.

Achieven high level play CAN be done by practicing, and even if you are talented you need to practice, but the skill cap on every player is different, and talented ones WILL have a higher skill cap, because their body has more potential.

I hope that explained my point of view.
Topic Starter
Vish024

Tanzklaue wrote:

and being talented in osu means:
-superior sense of rhythm
-easy adapting to spacing
-faster learning of speed
-mindsetting to never give up

thelewa wrote:

I think it's more to do with your mind than your physical strength.
Wouldn't you say that a player's mindset, motivation and mental approach to the game can only be nurtured?

Also, this was intended to be a debate. I know some of you struggle to accept that other people think in a different manner from you but please try to keep the discussion constructive as opposed to the usual "you're stupid for saying that" and "wow you idiot". Respect each other's opinions.
thelewa

LaVolpe024 wrote:

thelewa wrote:

I think it's more to do with your mind than your physical strength.
Wouldn't you say that a player's mindset, motivation and mental approach to the game can only be nurtured?
Some people can naturally comprehend more things at a time than others, and do it faster. This can be trained to a certain degree, but there's no making a genius out of a person who wasn't born one. Trust me, I know this better than anyone else since my parents tried to make me one.
RaneFire
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
knjiga
Nature determines how high your skill cap is.
Nurture only determines how close to it you will get.

It is naive to assume that everyone is on equal footing in osu! or any other thing for that matter.
she_old
Also wrong nurturing can bring down the skill cap.
I forgot to mention this.
Maneuver

Tanzklaue wrote:

Aqo wrote:

Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
what a stupid thing to say.

"Everbody who says nurture has an higher percent than nature just doesn't want to believe that their suckage will never fade away"
I dun understand this, by knowing you are not as talented as others, you know/acknowledge you have to train more harder than the talented person to be at the same level or surpass him.
RaneFire

loseri wrote:

Also wrong nurturing can bring down the skill cap.
I forgot to mention this.
How to define this? Playing Easy/Normals for too long could get you too used to playing these difficulties. Playing Insanes off-the-bat, or difficulties that are too hard for you on a regular basis could also be counter-productive.

While I agree with what you are saying... I don't know "which way the scale tips." - Probably both ways.
Hika
It's more like also considering playing the same map over & over again such as trying to FC something over a long period of time. Repetitive playing also counts as wrong nuturing because intended action from a normal player would to be moving on & playing a different map, only to come back to the map that has troubled them before.
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