Cookiezi has less total score than Rizzo (I mean, way less) and still has more total hits. How to explain that ? => Cookiezi retried more often at the beggining of a map than Rizzo. Rizzo played more the maps entierely, getting higher combo and so higher score, aka played moreAqo wrote:
Don't forget that despite lower playcount, Cookiezi has more notes hits in his count, and they probably came from harder more spaced maps too, so it's not like Rizzo practiced harder and got less far; he actually did practice less overall, even if you ignore retries and unranked plays.GoldenWolf wrote:
@lolcubes : That's true, but from what I could see by speccing both of them, my example is accurate enough :p
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Nature or nurture?
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Is the abiliity to play osu! determined by nature or nurture?
Total votes: 154
You can also explain it like this:
Rizzo plays easy maps where he can get a high combo and thus high score, and he trains very slowly by doing so
Cookiezi plays maps that are very hard for him and where he can barely keep a consistent combo, and this pushes his limits harder
Rizzo plays easy maps where he can get a high combo and thus high score, and he trains very slowly by doing so
Cookiezi plays maps that are very hard for him and where he can barely keep a consistent combo, and this pushes his limits harder
But actually, Cookiezi doesn't play maps that are very hard for him that often. He plays crazy AR9+DT maps, but even those aren't hard for him. He doesn't even like maps like Big Money. He likes maps that he can FC, and he has pretty much always played maps that he can FC.
That was solely based on just spectating him for 2 years
That was solely based on just spectating him for 2 years
Okay, let's take my exemple so :
I played maps that were hard and very hard for me, but I improved less than a friend who just played maps at his level (aka getting FC/SS in one try) and even if he's not playing that much (like 1 time per week or so) he's still better than me at many aspect of the game (consistency, streams, accu, jumps/aim, singletap).
The only thing I'm better than him is stamina.
I played like 40k plays (at least) if we count unranked maps, and 30k (maximum) for him.
By your theory I should be better than him, but it's not the case.
small edit : That's called "Talent". Some people are just better from the beginning and improves faster than others.
I played maps that were hard and very hard for me, but I improved less than a friend who just played maps at his level (aka getting FC/SS in one try) and even if he's not playing that much (like 1 time per week or so) he's still better than me at many aspect of the game (consistency, streams, accu, jumps/aim, singletap).
The only thing I'm better than him is stamina.
I played like 40k plays (at least) if we count unranked maps, and 30k (maximum) for him.
By your theory I should be better than him, but it's not the case.
small edit : That's called "Talent". Some people are just better from the beginning and improves faster than others.
I think there are some skill caps... but there's always room for improvement. I am a fast learner myself, but I don't think I could ever be as good as cookiezi or rrtyui or some other players. I don't know what to pick here.
I'm surprised he played Shotgun Symphony+ so much then, most of the maps he can't FC he'll just get a really good score or even #1 on it and then just never play it again. This was the case with shotgun too, but it took waaaay more plays than most of the other scores he set did.thelewa wrote:
He likes maps that he can FC, and he has pretty much always played maps that he can FC.
jesus1412 wrote:
Cookiezi is nature. People with crazy as shit accuracy are nature. Everything else can be learnt.
she_old
Holy shit 5 pages already.
Anyway I think a bit of both, but mainly nature.
I have a lack of focus and am hyper, and whenever I see a lot of different things I get headaches.
This also applies irl when in big crowds, however not paying attention at all helps a lot.
I think I can use this as an excuse for being unable to read ar9 without hidden or below that.
Whenever I play easymod for like 10 songs I get those headaches again so I wonder if I'll manage on easymod one day.
There was a period where I tried training easymod a lot, but nothing good came out of it and the headaches didn't become less.
Regarding streams I used to lift for 6 years and think I got pretty quickly into streaming fast, however I've been doing hard high BPM spamming daily back then without injuring my hands or anything and I used to be fast and able to maintain long combos.
And as of now with quite some long break done and a some violent behavior done I find it hard to stream speeds nonstop, however I still manage to reach high speeds, I just can't maintain anything anymore.
Pretty much the reason why I chose for both.
Anyway I think a bit of both, but mainly nature.
I have a lack of focus and am hyper, and whenever I see a lot of different things I get headaches.
This also applies irl when in big crowds, however not paying attention at all helps a lot.
I think I can use this as an excuse for being unable to read ar9 without hidden or below that.
Whenever I play easymod for like 10 songs I get those headaches again so I wonder if I'll manage on easymod one day.
There was a period where I tried training easymod a lot, but nothing good came out of it and the headaches didn't become less.
Regarding streams I used to lift for 6 years and think I got pretty quickly into streaming fast, however I've been doing hard high BPM spamming daily back then without injuring my hands or anything and I used to be fast and able to maintain long combos.
And as of now with quite some long break done and a some violent behavior done I find it hard to stream speeds nonstop, however I still manage to reach high speeds, I just can't maintain anything anymore.
Pretty much the reason why I chose for both.
Well it is true some people have a better rhythm sense than others, but that doesnt mean the ones that don't can't FC a insane map, it just means they have better accuracy. Out of most of my friends, i prob have a better rhythm sense which may have came from playing other music games beforehand. I totally suck at streams but i feel im getting the hang of getting 300s short streams and still working on it.
In a general sense, i really believe to be a more higher skilled player, its all about practise and how much time they spend on osu!, although not eveyone will start off from the same level and grow at the same rate. I can't say anything about playing HR or DT on insane maps, cause at present that seems totally impossible to me, but i think i will get there eventually.
In a general sense, i really believe to be a more higher skilled player, its all about practise and how much time they spend on osu!, although not eveyone will start off from the same level and grow at the same rate. I can't say anything about playing HR or DT on insane maps, cause at present that seems totally impossible to me, but i think i will get there eventually.
Apparently some people just don't want to accept it.Sorun wrote:
Genetic advantages are a fact of life.
both
To echo some sentiments said in this thread:
A normal person who tries hard can beat a talented person who doesn't.
A normal person absolutely cannot beat a talented person who tries their hardest.
At equal levels of effort and practice, a talented person will always beat a normal person.
This applies to both physical and mental capacities. Obviously, practice is required to get good at something (nurture), but a talented person can improve faster and reach a higher maximum potential (nature). Having one is better than having none, and having both is best. The only difference is that practice can be acquired at any time while talent can't.
A normal person who tries hard can beat a talented person who doesn't.
A normal person absolutely cannot beat a talented person who tries their hardest.
At equal levels of effort and practice, a talented person will always beat a normal person.
This applies to both physical and mental capacities. Obviously, practice is required to get good at something (nurture), but a talented person can improve faster and reach a higher maximum potential (nature). Having one is better than having none, and having both is best. The only difference is that practice can be acquired at any time while talent can't.
she_old
ur bst pro <З33зЗ3ззЗЗ3ЗэЭэЭbuny wrote:
Nature because I naturally suck
Read my mind.Pettanko wrote:
It's just ten percent luck
Twenty percent skill
Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
Five percent pleasure
Fifty percent pain
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name
But eventually being able to fc insanes with DT or HR or even both of the mods combined becomes worthless due to the need of accuracy, I can fc most insanes with hr and sometimes dt, but getting low accuracy like 85% makes it so inferior compared to a nomod SS.hinaskye wrote:
Well it is true some people have a better rhythm sense than others, but that doesnt mean the ones that don't can't FC a insane map, it just means they have better accuracy. Out of most of my friends, i prob have a better rhythm sense which may have came from playing other music games beforehand. I totally suck at streams but i feel im getting the hang of getting 300s short streams and still working on it.
In a general sense, i really believe to be a more higher skilled player, its all about practise and how much time they spend on osu!, although not eveyone will start off from the same level and grow at the same rate. I can't say anything about playing HR or DT on insane maps, cause at present that seems totally impossible to me, but i think i will get there eventually.
Just think of this as survival of the fittest.
we would die compared to top 100
gg no re
we would die compared to top 100
gg no re
I'd say Nature. Because talented people improve faster in many things (not just clicking circles). Of course, you'll need a TON of practice and patience to develop your talent, but the theory that EVERY person CAN achieve everything is wrong from the very beginning. It's an utopia, which has nothing to do with reality. A talented person which invests the same amount of time in practice will always end up higher than the less talented one. That's life.
tru pros r ones touchd by loser and cookiezi
Going for nature, I mean, yes you can improve by playing a lot, but some people have better reflexes (response time), some have better control over their body, better rhythm. Overall if a "talented" player plays exactly the same as a normal player, odds are that the talented one will be way better than the normal one, simply because he get better faster because he doesn't need to train his reflexes, rhythm, or get used to hovering for example as much as a normal player.
Both can be pro, but the talented one will probably be better if they both play the same amount of time/songs.
Both can be pro, but the talented one will probably be better if they both play the same amount of time/songs.
osu! skill breakdown:
10% natural skill
10% settings/tweaks being optimal
80% practice (can compensate for lack of natural skill)
What puts cookiezi past WW and other top players? Probably the natural skill. Some people are born with more patience and the ability to focus harder. These people are usually asian. =P
I'll use myself as an example. At first I started playing osu! with my Korean friend, we both played a normal map till we passed it, took me like 100 tries, took him 30-35, it wasn't an easy normal (lol). We did lots of MP and I noticed him SSing some of our maps in the next week, I was like OMG YOU SS'd THAT! etc. Took me ages to SS anything (I got much better with practice though). He naturally just destroyed me in skill. But with a tremendous effort I got near his level but his accuracy is still crazy.
I also played with a Japanese friend, he was able to do things on flashlight with 1/10th the amount of tries as me with 5x the amount of plays.
For reference, I'm very good at FPS games, like instantly dominate games i've never played before, top frags etc, and my korean friend is amazing at puzzle games, rpgs, and fighting games. Japanese friend was okay at fps.
Thinking back, i've always been good at fps, and my friend has always been good at fighters, he probably had innate rhythm talent too.
10% natural skill
10% settings/tweaks being optimal
80% practice (can compensate for lack of natural skill)
What puts cookiezi past WW and other top players? Probably the natural skill. Some people are born with more patience and the ability to focus harder. These people are usually asian. =P
I'll use myself as an example. At first I started playing osu! with my Korean friend, we both played a normal map till we passed it, took me like 100 tries, took him 30-35, it wasn't an easy normal (lol). We did lots of MP and I noticed him SSing some of our maps in the next week, I was like OMG YOU SS'd THAT! etc. Took me ages to SS anything (I got much better with practice though). He naturally just destroyed me in skill. But with a tremendous effort I got near his level but his accuracy is still crazy.
I also played with a Japanese friend, he was able to do things on flashlight with 1/10th the amount of tries as me with 5x the amount of plays.
For reference, I'm very good at FPS games, like instantly dominate games i've never played before, top frags etc, and my korean friend is amazing at puzzle games, rpgs, and fighting games. Japanese friend was okay at fps.
Thinking back, i've always been good at fps, and my friend has always been good at fighters, he probably had innate rhythm talent too.
^jesus1412 wrote:
Cookiezi is nature. People with crazy as shit accuracy are nature. Everything else can be learnt.
That's what I think.
I think it should be nature
Obviously it's all genetics and background. You just have to work with what you've got. There are different areas to excel at in osu:
- Snapping/movement/cursor dancing (in the end it doesn't matter how you move, but hey it adds your unique signature to your replays)
- Accuracy (getting that perfect hit within the millisecond)
- Focus (allowing your mind to focus solely on playing)
- Reading (confusing patterns and overlapping notes, fast or slow AR)
- Spinning (clockwise/anti clockwise, consistently under stressful areas of a map)
- Endurance (maintaining focus for extended periods, playing for several hours a day without getting bored)
- Stamina (how consistent you are under stressful play)
- Aim (tiny circles, difficult angles, wide distances)
- Reaction speed (how fast you respond to sudden activity, can be overcome with memory or predicting the next note(reading))
- Streaming (consistency, speed, alternating, single tapping)
- Memory (how fast you can memorize something in the least amount of plays possible, how many things stay permanently stored in your memory eg. a difficult section of a map)
- Adapting (to sudden changes, a new input device)
There are probably a few others aswell. Most likely how you first start playing the game has an effect on how you will turn out. Training may help with your weak areas, but you won't be better than somebody who excels in certain areas no matter how much you "nurture" it. Also your input device will obviously help with the physical side of things, I won't even go into how many areas there are regarding input device.
Then you've got things like posture, ergonomics EG (A player sitting up straight will do better than a player who is slouching). The way you grip your input device, height of the desk you play on. How far away you sit from the desk, Computers fps and specs, your monitors refresh rate, how tired you are. The length of your fingers (may affect streaming speed), whether you sweat alot (grip). What type of headphones you have. How well your right brain co-exists with your left brain during play (this will have an obvious affect on confusing stream notes such as dj pops streams) etc etc etc
tl;dr: Nature.
- Snapping/movement/cursor dancing (in the end it doesn't matter how you move, but hey it adds your unique signature to your replays)
- Accuracy (getting that perfect hit within the millisecond)
- Focus (allowing your mind to focus solely on playing)
- Reading (confusing patterns and overlapping notes, fast or slow AR)
- Spinning (clockwise/anti clockwise, consistently under stressful areas of a map)
- Endurance (maintaining focus for extended periods, playing for several hours a day without getting bored)
- Stamina (how consistent you are under stressful play)
- Aim (tiny circles, difficult angles, wide distances)
- Reaction speed (how fast you respond to sudden activity, can be overcome with memory or predicting the next note(reading))
- Streaming (consistency, speed, alternating, single tapping)
- Memory (how fast you can memorize something in the least amount of plays possible, how many things stay permanently stored in your memory eg. a difficult section of a map)
- Adapting (to sudden changes, a new input device)
There are probably a few others aswell. Most likely how you first start playing the game has an effect on how you will turn out. Training may help with your weak areas, but you won't be better than somebody who excels in certain areas no matter how much you "nurture" it. Also your input device will obviously help with the physical side of things, I won't even go into how many areas there are regarding input device.
Then you've got things like posture, ergonomics EG (A player sitting up straight will do better than a player who is slouching). The way you grip your input device, height of the desk you play on. How far away you sit from the desk, Computers fps and specs, your monitors refresh rate, how tired you are. The length of your fingers (may affect streaming speed), whether you sweat alot (grip). What type of headphones you have. How well your right brain co-exists with your left brain during play (this will have an obvious affect on confusing stream notes such as dj pops streams) etc etc etc
tl;dr: Nature.
Nature.
If it was nurture then many people would have outskilled cookiezi.
Cookiezi is "that special player". Every game has 1
If it was nurture then many people would have outskilled cookiezi.
Cookiezi is "that special player". Every game has 1
Nurture plays a huge role but nature will always be the limiting factor, always.
Nurturing you nature skill, reaching nature skill limit.Then ? Transcending nature limit by tons of nurturing, just to get 0.01% more ? Don't know if there is someone has just only discovered new innert nature on very late stages, or altered or created new nature.
I agree.Maneuver wrote:
Nurturing you nature skill, reaching nature skill limit.Then ? Transcending nature limit by tons of nurturing, just to get 0.01% more ? Don't know if there is someone has just only discovered new innert nature on very late stages, or altered or created new nature.
Same, also for the "put 2 people, make them train 2 months and see the results" there are too many factors influencing that in the game, like FPS in game (low fps = cursor lag) playing devices, mood, physical conditions ecc...Kanye West wrote:
20% nature, 80% nurture
Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
what a stupid thing to say.Aqo wrote:
Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
"Everbody who says nurture has an higher percent than nature just doesn't want to believe that their suckage will never fade away"
What a stupid thing to say. That doesn't even make sense. Everybody who trains at something gets better at it with no exceptions.Tanzklaue wrote:
"Everbody who says nurture has an higher percent than nature just doesn't want to believe that their suckage will never fade away"
What about people with insanely high IQ's? What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting? What about people who have beard growing contests? What about people born without certain body ligiments?Aqo wrote:
Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
EDIT: I love you aqo, just something to think about.
What does any of this have to do with your ability to click on circlesSoly wrote:
What about people with insanely high IQ's? What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting? What about people who have beard growing contests? What about people born without certain body ligiments?
GOD DAMNIT LEWA STOP POSTING RIGHT AFTER I HIT EDIT OMG YOU'RE DOING THIS ON PURPOSE meh
That's ingenious.Soly wrote:
What about people with insanely high IQ's? What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting? What about people who have beard growing contests? What about people born without certain body ligiments?Aqo wrote:
Everybody who says nature plays a bigger % than nurture is basically looking for excuses for doing badly.
Also, to simplify matters for Aqo, talent is not some sort of magical voodoo thing that makes a person better at something. Think about how every person is different from each other (their bodies are different, their minds are different) and think about how they are better or worse at something because of this. Take it up to 11 and you have found what talent is.
That's a really simplified explanation, though.
Yes lewa I understand perfectly well what you mean.
However being talented in osu would mean what, being born with better... wrists? Better eyesight?
As long as your body is capable of moving a finger up and down and perceiving the difference between a circle and the background you have all the tools you need to train and get as good as cookiezi or better.
However being talented in osu would mean what, being born with better... wrists? Better eyesight?
As long as your body is capable of moving a finger up and down and perceiving the difference between a circle and the background you have all the tools you need to train and get as good as cookiezi or better.
Why wrists?
Because a stronger wrist allows to aim more consistently and hit buttons consistently for longer without getting tired.
Except wrist strength is trainable and it's not something people are born with particularly significant different levels on.
Except wrist strength is trainable and it's not something people are born with particularly significant different levels on.
It's a matter of both. They aren't mutually exclusive.
Have you heard of "squandered talent" ?
Having talent still requires practice.
Have you heard of "squandered talent" ?
Having talent still requires practice.
For everyone else it takes longer.Aeidxst wrote:
Ability is just a shortcut.
I think it's more to do with your mind than your physical strength.Aqo wrote:
Yes lewa I understand perfectly well what you mean.
However being talented in osu would mean what, being born with better... wrists? Better eyesight?
As long as your body is capable of moving a finger up and down and perceiving the difference between a circle and the background you have all the tools you need to train and get as good as cookiezi or better.
I put in quotas because it's stupid, I don't think that way myself. I just wanted to show you that your statement is on a similar level of stupidity. I think that I suck, and that it is clearly because of lack of practice and motivation, and everytime I play I have the feeling I should be much better at this than I am. but this game jsut doesn't do it for me anymore, so I don't think I will ever get my full potential released; whereever it might have been.Aqo wrote:
What a stupid thing to say. That doesn't even make sense. Everybody who trains at something gets better at it with no exceptions.Tanzklaue wrote:
"Everbody who says nurture has an higher percent than nature just doesn't want to believe that their suckage will never fade away"
and being talented in osu means:
-superior sense of rhythm
-easy adapting to spacing
-faster learning of speed
-mindsetting to never give up
one day an african will come and take Cookiezi place, one day.Soly wrote:
What about big black african people being stronger than your average asian at lifting?EDIT: I love you aqo, just something to think about
edit: also it would be SOOOOO great to hear what Cookiezi thinks about this , sadly his not talented for speaking english
