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ONE OK ROCK - The Beginning

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SapphireGhost
osu! Alumni
2,618 posts
Joined June 2010
SapphireGhost
Kiiwa and those: Not all overmapping is bad to the same extent. I believe Kiiwa's point is that tutuhaha used overmapping in a way that was still reasonable and people found playable, and those's point is a general point against overmapping, that if you overmap to an extreme then it's not playable or fun.

Now, I think Kiiwa's response is a bit harshly worded, but I agree with her point that you can use overmapping to a certain extent without it becoming unplayable. You can see an example of unplayable overmapping in those's post, but it's not relevant to the extent of overmapping found in this map.

Like any mapping technique, you can use just some overmapping, or you can go too far. If I'm using new combo spam as a mapping technique, it can be done reasonably (example) or not (example). Overmapping is not inherently bad, but it is often done badly which is why people tend to draw that conclusion. As it pertains to this map, it's a question of whether it's being done reasonably or not, and in my opinion yes, it is and there wasn't a need to unrank it for that reason.
Strawberry
osu! Alumni
1,536 posts
Joined October 2010
Strawberry
i just get this map and test some times, the map is really cool from all kinds of aspects when i'm standing in the point of view of a normal player.

should the power to make decision not be grasped by most players? what i want to express is that people (who has ability to play Dance diff) is enjoy the experience during the play mostly. since we can all heard there are most strong beat from drum, the style of this diff can integrate the emotion of people into the song, the rhythm, also including the lyric.. these things are all the part of the song and also can not be express by the beat we can only find in the vocal or instrument.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
A response like this usually means one or both of two things: you think the MAT/BAT teams are unnecessary, and/or you forget MAT/BAT are players.
Gundam
136 posts
Joined January 2011
Gundam

those wrote:

Kiiwa wrote:

If the map can still be played well, who cares?
Imagine this plays well:


You get the point.
I can't find it in this map. can you point it?


those wrote:

The point is, you can put that anywhere on the map, and you can back it up with "I think it fits", where in reality this rhythm pattern doesn't appear ANYWHERE in this song.
You should try to play DJMAX TECHNIKA then you will change your mind.

Why a beatmap has many diff?
I think the key point is:RHYTHM
basic diff's rhythm is sparse but higher diff's rhythm intensive.For example,jubeat's Basic,Advanced and Extreme,DJMAX TECHNIKA's Normal,Hard and Maximum.In Extreme or Maximum,there are so much rhythm pattern(can't find in the song),but nobody think it's unplayable or overmap.I think this map is analogous,you know,Rating of the map is 9.6,it means that this map is playable.A map is playable or no is depends on most of player instead of some BAT/MAT.

so,rerank it plz.


edit:

those wrote:

A response like this usually means one or both of two things: you think the MAT/BAT teams are unnecessary, and/or you forget MAT/BAT are players.
Why is such a player with little judgement skill to be elected as a Team member? Who did this?
Strawberry
osu! Alumni
1,536 posts
Joined October 2010
Strawberry
someone always force his mind into others. ;)

anyway. *support for rerank
AngelHoney
2,155 posts
Joined May 2009
AngelHoney
Loctav unranked, 10058pc , 3 ranked maps ，83 kds ，cool~
and why you think overmapped = unplayable ?
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

Gundam wrote:

Imagine this plays well:


You get the point.
I can't find it in this map. can you point it?
It's obvious what he means, really. He isn't talking about a specific part in the map.
he even explained what he meant in an earlier post. learn to read before joining an argument.

Why a beatmap has many diff?
I think the key point is:RHYTHM
basic diff's rhythm is sparse but higher diff's rhythm intensive.For example,jubeat's Basic,Advanced and Extreme,DJMAX TECHNIKA's Normal,Hard and Maximum.In Extreme or Maximum,there are so much rhythm pattern(can't find in the song),but nobody think it's unplayable or overmap.I think this map is analogous,you know,Rating of the map is 9.6,it means that this map is playable.A map is playable or no is depends on most of player instead of some BAT/MAT.

so,rerank it plz.
This isn't DJMAX though, this is osu!, and we have certain standards. Overmapping is acceptable to a certain extent, but it was just too much here, it simply didn't fit anymore, and since the BAT were agreeing on that, they unranked it.
edit:

those wrote:

A response like this usually means one or both of two things: you think the MAT/BAT teams are unnecessary, and/or you forget MAT/BAT are players.
Why is such a player with little judgement skill to be elected as a Team member? Who did this?
How was that an inappropriate answer? don't you think you're going too far, insulting XAT's with no apparent reason?
Strawberry
osu! Alumni
1,536 posts
Joined October 2010
Strawberry
@Zarerion: overmap is a style, where you found "too much" here? also, same as DJMAX, remember osu! is also the mug. you can't defeat all that Gundam said. btw, what's your certain standards?
Flower
1,723 posts
Joined August 2011
Flower

Zarerion wrote:

It's obvious what he means, really. He isn't talking about a specific part in the map.
he even explained what he meant in an earlier post. learn to read before joining an argument.
I am sorry, but this picture explains nearly nothing. As SG mentioned, the extreme example does not prove impropriety of overmap conditions in the diff.

This isn't DJMAX though, this is osu!, and we have certain standards. Overmapping is acceptable to a certain extent, but it was just too much here, it simply didn't fit anymore, and since the BAT were agreeing on that, they unranked it.
It is not decided by a certain BAT as human is not perfect. The rating before unrank is overwhelmingly positive, whitch means this overmap does not affect playing. On the contrary, simply following the existing drum and vocal is quite plain, less creative and will get less rating, as I suggested.


How was that an inappropriate answer? don't you think you're going too far, insulting XAT's with no apparent reason?
lol Do you think this question is based on nothing?
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

Strawberry wrote:

@Zarerion: overmap is a style, where you found "too much" here? also, same as DJMAX, remember osu! is also the mug. you can't defeat all that Gundam said. btw, what's your certain standards?
I already did bring up some parts in the map I dislike.
In my opinion, this map didn't play well because of overmapping, too high spacing and unneeded jumps. (As well as totally broken flow, but that's something which is really up to the mapper)

And the certain standards are defined by the BATs. Why? because they supposedly have the most mapping and modding experience, and if the majority of them agrees about a map being pretty much unplayable, they most likely have a point about that map having serious issues.
Gundam
136 posts
Joined January 2011
Gundam
It's obvious what he means, really. He isn't talking about a specific part in the map.
he even explained what he meant in an earlier post. learn to read before joining an argument.
But now we are talk about this map,and I can't find it anywhere on the map.



This isn't DJMAX though, this is osu!, and we have certain standards. Overmapping is acceptable to a certain extent, but it was just too much here, it simply didn't fit anymore, and since the BAT were agreeing on that, they unranked it.
DJMAX is a music game,so is osu!.Overmapping is too much here?why it can be ranked?




How was that an inappropriate answer? don't you think you're going too far, insulting XAT's with no apparent reason?
Insulting XAT's with no apparent reason?hehe,I don't think so.Maybe you should read page3~page8 SERIOUSLY
Last edited by Gundam , edited 1 time in total.
tutuhaha
3,000 posts
Joined October 2010
Topic Starter
tutuhaha

Zarerion wrote:

And the certain standards are defined by the BATs. Why? because they supposedly have the most mapping and modding experience, and if the majority of them agrees about a map being pretty much unplayable, they most likely have a point about that map having serious issues.
Now many people agree this is playable so this is not the point
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,393 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
And then people wonder about bad Maps. Honestly, by getting some more accurate Mods and Testplays you could avoid this.. But why do I write it? Nobody cares about it. So ignore this thxbye
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

tutuhaha wrote:

Zarerion wrote:

And the certain standards are defined by the BATs. Why? because they supposedly have the most mapping and modding experience, and if the majority of them agrees about a map being pretty much unplayable, they most likely have a point about that map having serious issues.
Now many people agree this is playable so this is not the point
In this thread, at least as many players disliked the overmapping.

*sigh* Why do you even bother? It's decided already, it's not like your complaining would change anything.

Stefan wrote:

And then people wonder about bad Maps. Honestly, by getting some more accurate Mods and Testplays you could avoid this.. But why do I write it? Nobody cares about it. So ignore this thxbye
Exactly.
Xakyrie
667 posts
Joined February 2011
Xakyrie

Flower wrote:

It is not decided by a certain BAT as human is not perfect. The rating before unrank is overwhelmingly positive, whitch means this overmap does not affect playing. On the contrary, simply following the existing drum and vocal is quite plain, less creative and will get less rating, as I suggested. Since when did ratings ever fully determine that argument? Do you even realize how skewed the ratings are when you compare it to map quality? Positive ratings does not support the use of overmap at all. Just question your skill and your reasons for rating.

How was that an inappropriate answer? don't you think you're going too far, insulting XAT's with no apparent reason?
lol Do you think this question is based on nothing? Do you think accusations will do this any good? Please, be productive.

Zarerion wrote:

And the certain standards are defined by the BATs. Why? because they supposedly have the most mapping and modding experience, and if the majority of them agrees about a map being pretty much unplayable, they most likely have a point about that map having serious issues. It's not that they have the most, they generally have higher standards of quality and precision when it comes to modding. They know how to rectify problems they see in mapping, which is why they are given their titles so they can share that wealth of knowledge for the greater good.

Gundam wrote:

It's obvious what he means, really. He isn't talking about a specific part in the map.
he even explained what he meant in an earlier post. learn to read before joining an argument.
But now we are talk about this map,and I can't find it anywhere on the map. Did you not read the previous posts? People, learn to read before you enter an argument otherwise you just look silly and foolish.
tutuhaha
3,000 posts
Joined October 2010
Topic Starter
tutuhaha

Stefan wrote:

And then people wonder about bad Maps. Honestly, by getting some more accurate Mods and Testplays you could avoid this.. But why do I write it? Nobody cares about it. So ignore this thxbye
you need know when i make some crazy map like this I will find many player come to play it like nanaya, Uan, Sco, DzH, DeA, also SG
They are all play it and think this map has not big problem
If someone just want to play it 1 time and then FC it, yes it can not, but when this map is rank before 6 hour, someone can FC it just use 5 min, then after 10min someone can SS it
Gundam
136 posts
Joined January 2011
Gundam

Zarerion wrote:

In this thread, at least as many players disliked the overmapping.

*sigh* Why do you even bother? It's decided already, it's not like your complaining would change anything.
But the BAT is wrong.So we should correct it.

Stefan wrote:

And then people wonder about bad Maps. Honestly, by getting some more accurate Mods and Testplays you could avoid this.. But why do I write it? Nobody cares about it. So ignore this thxbye
you are right so it shoule be reranked.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

Gundam wrote:

Zarerion wrote:

In this thread, at least as many players disliked the overmapping.

*sigh* Why do you even bother? It's decided already, it's not like your complaining would change anything.
But the BAT is wrong.So we should correct it.
What. Are you even reading the posts?

Stefan wrote:

And then people wonder about bad Maps. Honestly, by getting some more accurate Mods and Testplays you could avoid this.. But why do I write it? Nobody cares about it. So ignore this thxbye
you are right so it shoule be reranked.
You are not. making. any. sense. Really.

Are you just stubborn or do you ignore us on purpose?
Sieg
3,981 posts
Joined February 2012
Sieg
So epic thread, I must leave my 500th post here. cheers~
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

Sieg wrote:

So epic thread, I must leave my 500th post here. cheers~
inb4 deleted
Flower
1,723 posts
Joined August 2011
Flower

Xakyrie wrote:

Since when did ratings ever fully determine that argument? Do you even realize how skewed the ratings are when you compare it to map quality? Positive ratings does not support the use of overmap at all. Just question your skill and your reasons for rating.
That is slippery. I agree that rating is often subjective, but we are not talking about like this or this (oh sorry I did not mean the latter one). The overmapping, or more accurately, epentheses, makes the map having an appropriate difficulty, a carefully arranged custom rhythm, and a good flow. About flow, a subjective feature, I think the mapper is handling it well, and the jumps should not be a difficulty in reading.


Do you think accusations will do this any good? Please, be productive.
I agree with your idea. Then, the one who starts satirizing the mapper and accusing the mapper's difficulty of understanding due to the criticizer's lack of ability of presenting clear expression should take the resposibility.
Gundam
136 posts
Joined January 2011
Gundam

Xakyrie wrote:

Did you not read the previous posts? People, learn to read before you enter an argument otherwise you just look silly and foolish.
FOOL.Talking about another rhythm pattern which can't find anywhere on the map,and the mapper DOES NOT put that anywhere on the map.It's too flloish,isn't it?Maybe you should test this map then post your impression here.I'm busy.thxbye
Last edited by Gundam , edited 1 time in total.
pw384
2,286 posts
Joined January 2012
pw384
爬完整层楼感觉XAT在犯二，没救
2ha加油!!!!!!!!

1.
http://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Ranking_Criteria
No Rules say that "overmap" is an unrankable issue. why unrank?

2.
.
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83kds? :?
http://osu.ppy.sh/p/kudosu

3. Try to find out why you can't play the map. Useless complaint makes no sense at all. :<

poor english

Edit: the silliest unranking with the non-sense unrank reason. good job guys.
Last edited by pw384 , edited 1 time in total.
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare
I'm giving up. This discussion makes no sense at all. You are asking the same questions and saying the same stuff over. and over. again.
This is just stupid.
Athena Tennos
1,038 posts
Joined February 2010
Athena Tennos

Strawberry wrote:

anyway. *support for rerank
Flower
1,723 posts
Joined August 2011
Flower

384059043 wrote:

83kds? :?
I even get more lol, but this does not mean Loc is incapable with modding. The conclusion is, "贵圈真乱".
Last edited by Flower , edited 1 time in total.
tutuhaha
3,000 posts
Joined October 2010
Topic Starter
tutuhaha

Zarerion wrote:

I'm giving up. This discussion makes no sense at all. You are asking the same questions and saying the same stuff over. and over. again.
This is just stupid.
we said the same stuff over and over because you dont give use answer, and we dont really understand your point
We dont say you are stupid but you said we are stupid, who stupid more？
all we know
pw384
2,286 posts
Joined January 2012
pw384

Flower wrote:

384059043 wrote:

83kds? :?
I even get more lol, but this does not mean Loc is incapable with modding. The conclusion is, "贵圈真乱".
我很好奇既然admin不需要kds就能上 为什么admin允许unrank/rank图 柑橘没救 贵圈真乱XD
pw384
2,286 posts
Joined January 2012
pw384
再继续为一个问题重复来重复去感觉会变成一个骗分帖子 怒回骗顶吧

support for reranking!
Aurele
osu! Alumni
7,408 posts
Joined January 2011
Aurele
This is getting crazy..
Xakyrie
667 posts
Joined February 2011
Xakyrie

tutuhaha wrote:

we said the same stuff over and over because you dont give use answer, and we dont really understand your point
We dont say you are stupid but you said we are stupid, who stupid more？
all we know
Just pointing out that no one called anyone stupid. The level of misinterpreting here (language barriers?) is just taking this discussion to a whole different realm. How about shifting the focus on the goal?

those wrote:

The point is, you can put that anywhere on the map, and you can back it up with "I think it fits", where in reality this rhythm pattern doesn't appear ANYWHERE in this song.

Sorry for overestimating your ability, I should be more thorough in my explanations.
I'm just going to leave this here in hopes that maybe, just maybe you'll get why you're not making much sense.

I hope to see some form of progression in this thread really soon.
Mercurial
Mercurial
If the mapper refuse to change something in this mapset, then this will end as Justice Breaker when Rin nuked his own map.
tutuhaha
3,000 posts
Joined October 2010
Topic Starter
tutuhaha

Mercurial wrote:

If the mapper refuse to change something in this mapset, then this will end as Justice Breaker when Rin nuked his own map.
It is the Bad things that I dont want it happen
so I try to find more people and explain they idea
then this map is not unrankable, it is really sure things, and it is readable and playable
UnitedWeSin
889 posts
Joined July 2012
UnitedWeSin
The only think unrankable here imo is that it's not the full version. ;_;
wcx19911123
3,862 posts
Joined June 2010
wcx19911123
I'll leave my opinions here

we need to accept a fact is that things are always being developing, so osu! is. the osu community has developing for 5 years, there's more and more players and mappers nowadays. the average of the play skill nowadays is much higher than what you thought, also the map difficulty. if we put an usual Insane diff which ranked in this year into 2 or 3 years ago, I think mostly of people would say it's overmapped

about this map, it's a bit hard to play, but it's acceptable nowadays. just like what 0108 did, he put many unreasonable jumps and streams in his map everywhere, and he became one the best of 2012

this is a precise tangible that osu has developed, there comes out many new things, maybe someone don't like new things but please remember: reject new things, there won't be history anymore, it'll be the end of the dynasty
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
DakeDekaane
I always found overmapping being bad when putting objects that follows nothing in the song, leaving the jumps aside, the so called overmapped difficulty would be more fun if those overmapped triplets and similar were changed, but I'm nobody to force you, I just came here to throw my opinion~
Also felt AngelHoney inconcluded :c
And drumrolls are missing~ :C
Raging Bull
2,785 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull

UnitedWeSin wrote:

The only think unrankable here imo is that it's not the full version. ;_;

Ahahaha.
Zero__wind
osu! Alumni
3,314 posts
Joined August 2012
Zero__wind
You guys are all pro players and pro mappers.
Here comes a ordinary dude without standing on either side.

First to say, I can't even pass the Dance diff, not like some one boasting an SS =.=

Then, although I can't even play it, I think it able and worth existing.
Do you guys ever think about why did HDR10 CS7 OD10 and snap divisor of 1/12 and 1/16 exist even it was not used even once?
Because it is reasonable at the right place.
Haven't the disagreeing guys ever read this thread ?
You know, when a supposed-to-be-epic song was chosen by someone to be mapped, and the mapper made just the right stuff, then the epic becomes real.
If the Airman lost its AR10, it won't be that exctiting as it is now.
If this Dance diff lost its intense tripples and huge jumps, it won't rock just as well.

I Don't mean the diff is flawless and need nothing to be fixed by saying this.
I've viewed the diff thoroughly and I have my opinions.
Sucha s I love 1/4 sliders but don't like them be in the way like this 01:25:566 (1,2,3) - , which is not smooth to play.
And I don't agree with this 00:55:567 (1,2,3,4) - and this 00:38:065 (3,4,5,6) - increasing distance for there is just repeated words and music (but not crescendo) which can match with them
Also I agree on the point that the distance between obejects after Kiai should be shorther, for the song obviously slowed down.
But I think stuffs like this 00:23:230 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - is definitely alright because this indicates that the rhythm changes from soft to intense at here.
And similar arrangements like this 00:41:609 (4,5) - is so suitable because with all dadadadadadadada 1/2 beats you won't get excited and fueled up, will you?

Remember, I agree to rerank it after some fixing but without removing the so called overamapping, even I can't even reach anything during the huge jumps.
If this got ranked again, you know, I won't get an FC with HT and instead I will dig a big "discusting" hole with NF.
Because when this map is like what it is, it rocks, and I may be so exciting struglling with hundreds of misses.
I'm noob at timing, so if this map has timing problem and got unranked, it's reasonable and acceptable.
Then fix it with the skills from you all great guys who joined the argument and bring the rank back.
On the contrary, if this was unranked because some of you XATs who was always regarding whomselves as majority can't got pp from it and was not satisfied,
Then Go rank your fucking maps which is kind enough to bring up everyone's rank in to #100.

So Go! Go! tutuhaha! Get your fucking great map back to the ranked.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
1.) I didn't decide this unrank alone
2.) this step is for quality assurance. I can see what the map tries to achieve. Overmapping is okay to an extend. But this diff was going too far. This wouldn't have been unranked if several people wouldn't have agreed.

Do not turn this thread into a fundamental discussion about what-is-overmapping.
I don't want to sound arrogant, but this decision has been made as team and will stay.
You should all use your focus to improve this map. I am saying that certain triplets are optionally "okay".
But my post showed up all notes that are technically overmapped. It's not that every single note is unrankable as its sole. The SUM of the infringements and the exaggerated useage of notes ruins the whole map to a level that it looks like you face rolled over your keyboard and made it unrankable.

Please consider that if you check the map now, you are not seeing the initial version which got unranked. Also keep in mind that XATs are players, too. Even if I might not be in the top 2000, others of us are. And yet majority of us agree.
I can see everyone's point here. I also agree to an extend. But this diff was OVERDOING what it was trying.
Refrain from getting personal.
This style can't be considered as "development". This map as a whole was neither art, creative nor made sense together with the mp3 it overlayed.
If we start to accept blantly random clusterpoot as the new future of this game, the quality will run rapidly downhill.


Try to fix for what the map got unranked for. And stop trying to explain me, why this should be ranked. It shouldn't in the state it has been.
Cygnus
1,517 posts
Joined December 2011
Cygnus
I don't if it's just me but I find this map a lot more overmapped than this one: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/48979
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