But why though, I feel like these ranked 'ln' or slider maps are just an inconvenience rather than fun, like some are quite too small to get a good max 300.
I can understand they're there for the song pattern or because it fits, but then we have Dualive mixing lns with almost unreadable svs and almost no one likes it?? (as far as I know)

I've been asking mania players here and there why these are just here and ive been getting a mix of positive and negative, personally I don't like them at all, not only that, some of these ranked ln maps are owned by some NAT and BN people? i just want an easy to understand but detail explanation why these are a thing. pls

LNs are a different charting style just like chordjacks or handstream or anything else, they provide a challenge for the people looking for something new.

some people love them some people absolutely hate them if you don't like them don't play them

yes fuck LNs

rice shall rise

Connormgs wrote:

LNs are a different charting style just like chordjacks or handstream or anything else, they provide a challenge for the people looking for something new.

some people love them some people absolutely hate them if you don't like them don't play them

yeah but pp is pp

Hmm, can u give me more example of bad LN maps, since dualive is basically ruined by the SV itself

don't like lns?

don't like svs?

play etterna

Furryy wrote:

Connormgs wrote:

LNs are a different charting style just like chordjacks or handstream or anything else, they provide a challenge for the people looking for something new.

some people love them some people absolutely hate them if you don't like them don't play them

yeah but pp is pp

get good then.

Hi, I'm one of the aforementioned 'BN people' with a slightly LN-oriented mapping style. After seeing this discussion, I wanted to quickly give my own perspective on this.

Do note that while LN maps are becoming increasingly prevalent, they are still not the 'new majority' of the Ranked section. You have plenty of other banger tracks to choose from, and we're constantly adding more! So don't feel too bad if you just can't stand the weird releases and other shenanigans.

So, why do I map LN? The surface answer is very simple: it's because I enjoy it. I like employing LN usage in my maps because they are, in my opinion, much more interesting than the usual jumpstream/handstream-oriented maps which get churned out one after another. With that said, it's something that differs from person to person, and there's no shame in liking a pattern that someone somewhere else dislikes.

But why choose specific types of LN patterning? The main reason is because of how I perceive the music. If the song has a melody or instrument that is very muddled, I am inclined to use messy LN patterning to emphasise that point. A good example would be certain Camellia tracks e.g. Nacreous Snowmelt's iconic chorus. On the other hand, I use mini-LNs for the fast motions required to hit them accurately. This is very useful in expressing specific things in the music such as staccato and echoes, but can also be used to simply add another instrument to the layering of an already dense map.

(I will go on a bit of a tangent here.) As for public reception, it's a secret to nobody that maps with an LN focus generally receive lower ratings. You can clearly see this on one of my own sets, Mirrorwall, which utilises somewhat difficult LN patterning to highlight certain sections of the song for their unique qualities. This comes from a variety of factors, but one of the prominent ones would be the fact that there are many players who care about their rank and pp above all else. You can even see this through your own posts on this thread:

Furryy wrote:

like some are quite too small to get a good max 300s

Furryy wrote:

yeah but pp is pp

You may not realise it, but from these quotes it's possible to infer that you are prioritising your leaderboard performance. I'll be real: I can't fault that. Many players enjoy climbing them and seeing their ranks soar - it's a satisfying thing to look at. With that said, I personally do not care about the pp system. When I map, I try to strike a balance between musical relevancy and how enjoyable I find playing the map to be, so naturally, I will include patterns I like which I feel could decently represent the sounds I want. Note that this is my own personal stance, and there will likely be many other views, but if you care a great deal about climbing the leaderboards, chances are that you are not the target audience for LN maps.

That aside, people may also find LN maps more difficult than others because of the lack of lower level LN material available to beginners who are just starting the game. When I first became BN, I had the same opinion as you: I didn't like LN maps. Shocking, considering the material I put out now, but you can just check my first Ranked map for evidence. It's almost entirely heavy jumpstream. I refused to nominate LN maps at the time. However, over time, the genre began to grow on me. I personally began to dabble in some LN mapping, and now the vast majority of my Ranked maps have some sort of LN influence. Truthfully, I was just unfamiliar with how to hit the patterns, and once I got the hang of it, it became something fun. So if you still have some hope for the LN map archetype, I'd totally encourage you to get some more practice and experience in before deciding you completely hate everything in that category.

(Getting back on track to answering your post here.) I do feel like there is a bit of a misunderstanding here. You listed Dualive as your example of an LN map. However, I personally believe that it is a flawed example. In concept, Dualive could've been decent, yes - but personally, I disliked the execution. LNs with SVs are very difficult to pull off - some might argue that they should NEVER be used together - and Dualive is an example of that gone wrong. (Anyone here is free to disagree; I won't take it personally, and I hope nobody else does.) Also, do be reminded that that map is over two years old. It in no way reflects the quality of LN maps which are entering the Ranked section now. In other words, please don't use it as the base of your argument! ^^;

Now to address the NAT/BN comment: I'm not quite sure what you're trying to get at here, but you could just be looking at the Ranked maps of a specific group of BNs such as myself. There are plenty of other BNs who don't do much LN mapping. Likewise, there have been plenty of Ranked maps from people who are not part of the BNG/NAT. Personally, I wouldn't reject something based off whether or not it is an LN-centric map; in fact, I've accepted and nominated plenty which have been rice or even SV (thankfully without being mixed with LNs). As long as a map is interesting, polished, and has a decently sized target audience, that's enough for me to give it my stamp of approval.

TL;DR: I map LN because I like playing it and it provides me with a ton of utility when it comes to representing certain sound qualities. I generally strive for a balance between musical relevancy and playability. (Do note that it is NOT the only type of style I map!) Intro + Dualive is not a good map to be basing your opinions off of (it is a very polarising piece of work), and overall I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say in regards to NAT/BNs having ranked their own LN maps.

Hope this helps with understanding, even if only a little!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADDITION: I wrote this quite a while before posting and in the meantime, some events have transpired.
I saw that you commented this on the infamous 'Rant on Osu!Mania' thread:

Furryy wrote:

makes sense why almost all bns rank their own maps

It slightly dampens my mood to see this type of comment, since it means that no matter what I say, the person I am trying to convince will be biased against me just because of my position in the community, not who I am as a person and mapper. So before I ramble again, I kindly ask for you to keep an open mind while reading. :>

I'd really like for you to move past that mindset and have a conversation with me personally, because the notion of us '[ranking our] own maps' is simply not true. For one, we can't nominate the things we create ourselves. We don't rank our maps just because we can. It's a hassle even for us. Yes, many BNs have lots of Ranked maps. This is natural as BNs are meant to be among the most active in the beatmap ranking scene. We volunteer many hours of our time just scanning for issues and ways to improve on the maps we check while receiving little rewards from the game's staff for doing so. Therefore, passion for the game (and for mapping) is likely the main thing which motivates us to continue doing our job. Is it then so unreasonable to want to contribute ourselves to the Ranked pool, which we put so much effort into curating? It's not like we're not helping others rank their own maps at the same time.

As for why there seems to be a large influx of BN maps, do keep in mind that it is not uncommon for a BN's map to be more polished than, say, a relatively new mapper, due to the amount of know-how in mapping you gain from the job. This makes checking their maps much faster and they run into less issues with the Ranking Criteria when requesting their maps. Unfortunately, the rules can be a huge pain in the neck and I've had to reject many maps that I personally loved just because of the number of rules and guidelines broken. It's simply too painstaking to pick out every single issue. Even so, I will not accept any map just because it's from a BN (or someone I'm on good terms with) - it must personally appeal to me as a map. The product should be the main selling point, not the person. I know many other BNs would agree with this sentiment.

It's also important to take into account the fact that there are BNG/NAT mappers from other modes who are trying their hand at producing mania maps of decent quality, and their titles should not be held against them.

What I'm trying to say is, just because you have the shiny purple tag doesn't mean you have to abstain from ranking any maps of your own until you resign. Additionally, there is a stigma regarding Ranked beatmaps coming from those with some sort of community position which I believe is largely exaggerated due to actions taken by previous members which have left a rather sour taste in the public's mouth ever since. I could be mistaken, though - I'm only one BN, and this is just my point of view.

Anyways, that should be all I wanted to say. I really encourage you to get to know us before making any assumptions regarding the types of people we (the BNG) are, and a good way to do that would be to join the osu!mania Mapping/Modding Discord server! (You can find the link on my profile if you scroll a little.) Almost everyone who is active is chill, so I hope to see you there. ^^

4k players hate long note charts it's a lost cause trying to convince the vast majority of players to play them. they need their easy recycled jumpstream and jumptrill chart PP

Connormgs wrote:

4k players hate long note charts it's a lost cause trying to convince the vast majority of players to play them. they need their easy recycled jumpstream and jumptrill chart PP

Just because you don't play fun rice charts doesn't mean theyre nothing but jumptrills and js

Whens the last time a decent dump chart got ranked? 3-4 years ago?

Keiga wrote:

...

Huge props to you for taking the time to write something in response to ranked criticism. In a time when players it feels like BN don't have a good grasp on what players want (or idk, do they care? You said you don't care about pp system. Beats me...), this is refreshing to see. I am seeing a lot of LN maps being ranked, it's the current meta. I don't have anything against LN, but too much of anything is bad. Is there any effort to seek out a better diversity of maps in ranked? Like I don't get where this process is encountering a diversity bottleneck. Do the mappers simply not make any non LN maps anymore? Do modders in modding queues filter out non LN maps? Is it something during nomination? With so many LN maps and so little rice maps, something just doesn't feel right, like something wrong is happening somewhere.

abraker wrote:

Keiga wrote:

...

Huge props to you for taking the time to write something in response to ranked criticism. In a time when players it feels like BN don't have a good grasp on what players want (or idk, do they care? You said you don't care about pp system. Beats me...), this is refreshing to see. I am seeing a lot of LN maps being ranked, it's the current meta. I don't have anything against LN, but too much of anything is bad. Is there any effort to seek out a better diversity of maps in ranked? Like I don't get where this process is encountering a diversity bottleneck. Do the mappers simply not make any non LN maps anymore? Do modders in modding queues filter out non LN maps? Is it something during nomination? With so many LN maps and so little rice maps, something just doesn't feel right, like something wrong is happening somewhere.

Well, of course I care about player enjoyment - it just so happens that the pp system is just so broken that trying to pander to those who spend all their time on leaderboard grinding will only result in me creating something that I'm unhappy with, and I don't want to rank anything that I'm not proud of. So, in essence, I care about pleasing the players who want an interesting interpretation of their favourite music. However, I do think better communication between the community and the BNG would be more helpful in trying to understand both sides. Personally, I've rarely - almost never - seen feedback on the Ranked section that could be constructive; most criticism take the form of angry players who simply hurl insults in the comments. This is not helpful and worsens the relationship between BNs, mappers, and the community.

With that said, the vast majority of the playerbase don't have a particularly good grasp of mapping concepts, so even if we were to listen to them, a level of quality control would still need to be met. Unfortunately, we can't please everyone, and in my opinion, the Ranked section is for both players and mappers. Because of this, there are several maps that are very popular in the community which many BNs are against strongly ranking due to an egregious amount of flaws from a mapping perspective. This lack of understanding of mapping principles may be part of why there is an outrage about certain maps not being Ranked. For a map to be considered for Ranked, it must be of decent quality both from a playing and mapping lens, and many do not meet this standard. If they were to be nominated, a veto (or at least a strongly worded post) may occur.

(This part is entirely my opinion.) Regarding the problem of too many LN maps being sent to Ranked, I'm actually not too sure of my stance on the issue. If I were to be frank, from the last 14 maps I've helped send to Ranked, I'd only classify 5 of them as LN. (You can see this information on my Trello from my profile in the 'Ranked' list.) That's only roughly a little over a third. Additionally, from behind the scenes, I know that the BNs I actively work with are always looking for more diverse maps. Some of them directly seek out mappers whose maps they find interesting even if they don't always like the song, so I'd say there is definitely an active effort to seek out better diversity of maps in Ranked. Of course, I can't say this is true of everyone as not every BN is within my circle.

I personally don't think there's been too many LN maps entering Ranked in recent times, so it's usually a little alarming to hear people complain about it. Looking at the 10 latest Ranked sets for 4K, only 2 seem to have a large focus on LN: abraxos' Possession and Leniane's Beyond the Geostationary Orbit Level. With that said, in the past, several LN maps have coincidentally entered Ranked in quick succession which could've given the wrong impression. I also think there's a bit of a bias in the nomination process against certain styles of maps which were very popular in the past, with SDVX maps being a prime example of this. These styles - which are predominantly rice - are certainly still popular among players, but many mappers and BNs alike find them uninteresting due to how over-saturated the Ranked section was in the past with them.

Like it or not, anime maps are on the rise again, and there's plenty of hybrid or tech maps out there for people to enjoy. Perhaps the issue isn't too much LN, but too little heavy rice? Imo it's rather hard to create interesting pure (or mostly pure) rice charts since you miss out on a lot of other methods to represent certain sounds, but I certainly am not against the concept itself as long as it's mapped well and plays well.

Regardless, I'd really like to hear some more thoughts on this, since everything above is just my hypothesis. Also, if you guys have any non-LN maps that you think are good from both a mapping and playing perspective, feel free to link them here - I can try sending them around the group. ^^

finally i can understand ln maps

Keiga wrote:

Hi, I'm one of the aforementioned 'BN people' with a slightly LN-oriented mapping style. After seeing this discussion, I wanted to quickly give my own perspective on this.

Do note that while LN maps are becoming increasingly prevalent, they are still not the 'new majority' of the Ranked section. You have plenty of other banger tracks to choose from, and we're constantly adding more! So don't feel too bad if you just can't stand the weird releases and other shenanigans.

So, why do I map LN? The surface answer is very simple: it's because I enjoy it. I like employing LN usage in my maps because they are, in my opinion, much more interesting than the usual jumpstream/handstream-oriented maps which get churned out one after another. With that said, it's something that differs from person to person, and there's no shame in liking a pattern that someone somewhere else dislikes.

But why choose specific types of LN patterning? The main reason is because of how I perceive the music. If the song has a melody or instrument that is very muddled, I am inclined to use messy LN patterning to emphasise that point. A good example would be certain Camellia tracks e.g. Nacreous Snowmelt's iconic chorus. On the other hand, I use mini-LNs for the fast motions required to hit them accurately. This is very useful in expressing specific things in the music such as staccato and echoes, but can also be used to simply add another instrument to the layering of an already dense map.

(I will go on a bit of a tangent here.) As for public reception, it's a secret to nobody that maps with an LN focus generally receive lower ratings. You can clearly see this on one of my own sets, Mirrorwall, which utilises somewhat difficult LN patterning to highlight certain sections of the song for their unique qualities. This comes from a variety of factors, but one of the prominent ones would be the fact that there are many players who care about their rank and pp above all else. You can even see this through your own posts on this thread:

Furryy wrote:

like some are quite too small to get a good max 300s

Furryy wrote:

yeah but pp is pp

You may not realise it, but from these quotes it's possible to infer that you are prioritising your leaderboard performance. I'll be real: I can't fault that. Many players enjoy climbing them and seeing their ranks soar - it's a satisfying thing to look at. With that said, I personally do not care about the pp system. When I map, I try to strike a balance between musical relevancy and how enjoyable I find playing the map to be, so naturally, I will include patterns I like which I feel could decently represent the sounds I want. Note that this is my own personal stance, and there will likely be many other views, but if you care a great deal about climbing the leaderboards, chances are that you are not the target audience for LN maps.

That aside, people may also find LN maps more difficult than others because of the lack of lower level LN material available to beginners who are just starting the game. When I first became BN, I had the same opinion as you: I didn't like LN maps. Shocking, considering the material I put out now, but you can just check my first Ranked map for evidence. It's almost entirely heavy jumpstream. I refused to nominate LN maps at the time. However, over time, the genre began to grow on me. I personally began to dabble in some LN mapping, and now the vast majority of my Ranked maps have some sort of LN influence. Truthfully, I was just unfamiliar with how to hit the patterns, and once I got the hang of it, it became something fun. So if you still have some hope for the LN map archetype, I'd totally encourage you to get some more practice and experience in before deciding you completely hate everything in that category.

(Getting back on track to answering your post here.) I do feel like there is a bit of a misunderstanding here. You listed Dualive as your example of an LN map. However, I personally believe that it is a flawed example. In concept, Dualive could've been decent, yes - but personally, I disliked the execution. LNs with SVs are very difficult to pull off - some might argue that they should NEVER be used together - and Dualive is an example of that gone wrong. (Anyone here is free to disagree; I won't take it personally, and I hope nobody else does.) Also, do be reminded that that map is over two years old. It in no way reflects the quality of LN maps which are entering the Ranked section now. In other words, please don't use it as the base of your argument! ^^;

Now to address the NAT/BN comment: I'm not quite sure what you're trying to get at here, but you could just be looking at the Ranked maps of a specific group of BNs such as myself. There are plenty of other BNs who don't do much LN mapping. Likewise, there have been plenty of Ranked maps from people who are not part of the BNG/NAT. Personally, I wouldn't reject something based off whether or not it is an LN-centric map; in fact, I've accepted and nominated plenty which have been rice or even SV (thankfully without being mixed with LNs). As long as a map is interesting, polished, and has a decently sized target audience, that's enough for me to give it my stamp of approval.

TL;DR: I map LN because I like playing it and it provides me with a ton of utility when it comes to representing certain sound qualities. I generally strive for a balance between musical relevancy and playability. (Do note that it is NOT the only type of style I map!) Intro + Dualive is not a good map to be basing your opinions off of (it is a very polarising piece of work), and overall I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say in regards to NAT/BNs having ranked their own LN maps.

Hope this helps with understanding, even if only a little!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADDITION: I wrote this quite a while before posting and in the meantime, some events have transpired.
I saw that you commented this on the infamous 'Rant on Osu!Mania' thread:

Furryy wrote:

makes sense why almost all bns rank their own maps

It slightly dampens my mood to see this type of comment, since it means that no matter what I say, the person I am trying to convince will be biased against me just because of my position in the community, not who I am as a person and mapper. So before I ramble again, I kindly ask for you to keep an open mind while reading. :>

I'd really like for you to move past that mindset and have a conversation with me personally, because the notion of us '[ranking our] own maps' is simply not true. For one, we can't nominate the things we create ourselves. We don't rank our maps just because we can. It's a hassle even for us. Yes, many BNs have lots of Ranked maps. This is natural as BNs are meant to be among the most active in the beatmap ranking scene. We volunteer many hours of our time just scanning for issues and ways to improve on the maps we check while receiving little rewards from the game's staff for doing so. Therefore, passion for the game (and for mapping) is likely the main thing which motivates us to continue doing our job. Is it then so unreasonable to want to contribute ourselves to the Ranked pool, which we put so much effort into curating? It's not like we're not helping others rank their own maps at the same time.

As for why there seems to be a large influx of BN maps, do keep in mind that it is not uncommon for a BN's map to be more polished than, say, a relatively new mapper, due to the amount of know-how in mapping you gain from the job. This makes checking their maps much faster and they run into less issues with the Ranking Criteria when requesting their maps. Unfortunately, the rules can be a huge pain in the neck and I've had to reject many maps that I personally loved just because of the number of rules and guidelines broken. It's simply too painstaking to pick out every single issue. Even so, I will not accept any map just because it's from a BN (or someone I'm on good terms with) - it must personally appeal to me as a map. The product should be the main selling point, not the person. I know many other BNs would agree with this sentiment.

It's also important to take into account the fact that there are BNG/NAT mappers from other modes who are trying their hand at producing mania maps of decent quality, and their titles should not be held against them.

What I'm trying to say is, just because you have the shiny purple tag doesn't mean you have to abstain from ranking any maps of your own until you resign. Additionally, there is a stigma regarding Ranked beatmaps coming from those with some sort of community position which I believe is largely exaggerated due to actions taken by previous members which have left a rather sour taste in the public's mouth ever since. I could be mistaken, though - I'm only one BN, and this is just my point of view.

Anyways, that should be all I wanted to say. I really encourage you to get to know us before making any assumptions regarding the types of people we (the BNG) are, and a good way to do that would be to join the osu!mania Mapping/Modding Discord server! (You can find the link on my profile if you scroll a little.) Almost everyone who is active is chill, so I hope to see you there. ^^

Finally i can ln now

Keiga wrote:

Well, of course I care about player enjoyment - it just so happens that the pp system is just so broken that trying to pander to those who spend all their time on leaderboard grinding will only result in me creating something that I'm unhappy with, and I don't want to rank anything that I'm not proud of.

Ranked is tied to pp but also it's not. Depends on how you compare scores. When comparing scores on different maps it matters, but that's unreliable, so a player would resort to comparing their score to their friend's on the same map. Honestly, if players are unhappy because the map doesn't give pp, it's the problem with the pp not the map.

Keiga wrote:

So, in essence, I care about pleasing the players who want an interesting interpretation of their favourite music. However, I do think better communication between the community and the BNG would be more helpful in trying to understand both sides. Personally, I've rarely - almost never - seen feedback on the Ranked section that could be constructive; most criticism take the form of angry players who simply hurl insults in the comments. This is not helpful and worsens the relationship between BNs, mappers, and the community.

Lower ranked players want their favorite songs ranked. Higher ranked players want diversity and competition. That's all there is to understand. Complaints about quality, etc, etc imo is just useless noise. Players have the option to not play the map if they don't like it. It's when there is not enough map diversity to choose from that becomes a problem.

As for my feedback, in regards to diversity, ranked currently lacks dumps, dense streams, and stamina maps. Unfortunately everyone I know who might map such maps have no faith in ranked and won't even bother trying. They don't agree with how ranked works. See IcyWorld's post on a little insight.

Keiga wrote:

With that said, the vast majority of the playerbase don't have a particularly good grasp of mapping concepts, so even if we were to listen to them, a level of quality control would still need to be met.

But higher ranking players have a good grasp of what skills are need for the map, and that's all that matters imo.

Keiga wrote:

Unfortunately, we can't please everyone, and in my opinion, the Ranked section is for both players and mappers. Because of this, there are several maps that are very popular in the community which many BNs are against strongly ranking due to an egregious amount of flaws from a mapping perspective. This lack of understanding of mapping principles may be part of why there is an outrage about certain maps not being Ranked. For a map to be considered for Ranked, it must be of decent quality both from a playing and mapping lens, and many do not meet this standard. If they were to be nominated, a veto (or at least a strongly worded post) may occur.

I am going to copy paste something I wrote in a mapping discussion thread, which I hope gets answered.


.

Keiga wrote:

I personally don't think there's been too many LN maps entering Ranked in recent times, so it's usually a little alarming to hear people complain about it. Looking at the 10 latest Ranked sets for 4K...

I guess that's something that needs analysis from a statistical point of view. I can't really comment beyond that since I don't know what goes on before those maps get ranked and other don't.

LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

-mint- wrote:

LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

the new captain of project loved, everyone.

Finally I can LN now

abraker wrote:

...

Okay, I'll try to go through my thoughts on each point one by one. Please be reminded though that I don't represent the entire BNG and this is entirely my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt!

abraker wrote:

Ranked is tied to pp but also it's not. Depends on how you compare scores. When comparing scores on different maps it matters, but that's unreliable, so a player would resort to comparing their score to their friend's on the same map. Honestly, if players are unhappy because the map doesn't give pp, it's the problem with the pp not the map.

This point I agree with. The pp system is genuinely broken and I'd really like to see more effort put into fixing it so people stop complaining about some 8* 300BPM map with a 10-second-long jumptrill section not being ranked just because they want the internet points they get for mashing through it.

abraker wrote:

Lower ranked players want their...

...IcyWorld's post on a little insight.

If they don't agree with how Ranked works, it's not really something under [the BNG's] control. There would need to be a staff decision for this and a system overhaul, and we don't have the power to do that. Therefore, disregarding the blatant flaws of the system, I'll respond to and try to explain what I can about the lack of certain map types in Ranked from my point of view. Really sorry if this part ends up uninformative. :<

Dumps: I can see the concern for a lack of dumps if you're someone who plays them often. Do be reminded that partial dumps are rankable and some have made it into the Ranked section, such as Kamuy's Transhumanist and Vortex-'s Tetsuo's Redemption (Billain Remix). The truth is, these partial dumps just barely managed to scrape by the Ranking Criteria's dreaded line: "Every note should correlate to a sound present in the music". Dump maps that aren't partial are barred by this guideline, and while I don't personally agree with it, it's not really something under my jurisdiction either. You can start a proposal regarding it if you have solid justification, though since I'm not the target audience for dumps (and thus cannot properly judge them), it's unfortunately not something I'd attempt. I also don't think there's many people in the current BNG who have the ability to judge pure dump maps, so solving this problem could very well be too difficult without some big changes being made first.

(In other words, since this is an inherent issue with the Ranking Criteria, it can't really be solved if BNs just chose to begin nominating dumps. It'll just result in either pops or disqualifications until the guideline is either removed or loosened. Bit of a glaring flaw of the system, but on the bright side, it does prevent power abuse via loopholes to some extent... because that's bound to happen at some point.)

Dense Streams: As said in my earlier post, I believe there is a bit of a bias against patterning such as dense streams considering how our current BNs are a little more focused on musical representation. Maps that are almost entirely dense streams limit your options greatly as there is little space left to use and while I'm not against ranking maps like this, they should do something interesting (not song choice) to stand out from the others. (This does come down to personal preferences between BNs though. Some will accept dense streams as long as the map is clean and decently layered with a song they like.)

Stamina Maps: I have personally never had a purely stamina map being requested to me, so the lack of diversity here probably lies with the fact that the people you know who map such things don't even try to rank them.

I've already seen IcyWorld's response before, but unfortunately I'm not really getting much from it. Maybe I'm missing something, but the post tells me that they're satisfied with their creations already because they fit their own 'personal standards'. They have no intention past the initial creation of the map to continue improving it, which is perfectly fine with me. Enjoying yourself is an important part of mapping after all. But the problem with applying this is that they disagree with the concept of rules itself. Without rules, the Ranked section can very well turn into a mess. Regulations prevent power abuse while also giving those in charge of promoting maps something to agree on for a base level of quality. You wouldn't want to see delta dan level maps labelled as an Easy difficulty - it's misleading to newer players, and it's prevented by the addition of rules, but it's something that can very well happen without them.

Do note that there are unpopular rules and guidelines even among us BNs, and we're working - albeit rather slowly - to loosen (or even completely remove) them one by one. The public can also make their own proposals and express their desires to change the Ranking Criteria, so feel free to contribute!

abrakers wrote:

But higher ranking players have a good grasp of what skills are need for the map, and that's all that matters imo.

Sorry, but I vehemently disagree with this one. To me, this translates to "higher ranking players can map better", which is just downright untrue. Being able to play your own maps and weed out playability issues is one thing, but looking at things from a musical point of view is another. Knowing what skills are needed for the map is not equal to being good at judging the quality of a map. It is only a part of it. There are some god-awful maps from high rank players which make no sense and sometimes don't even feel synced with the song while playing (and I'm not talking about dump maps here, the good ones usually play just fine). This is a statement that I just can't agree with, no matter what.

abrakers wrote:

rant

In my opinion, I feel that Ranked should be for everyone who plays the game. It's easy to forget, but mappers are players too, and trust me when I say this: to a player, a map may play perfectly fine, but mappers are more perceptive and some will notice even the slightest inconsistency and it will ruin enjoyment. This is partly why there are several popular maps in the Graveyard which I personally just can't stand even from a playing perspective.

To respond to you in more specific points:

1. Is Ranked for players to compete against each other in leaderboards and pp?
Yes, to an extent. But mostly in concept. In execution, due to the botched star rating system, many issues arise, including the fact that 7K maps tend to be denser due to having more room to work with, meaning more pp. Therefore, I'd personally be fine with competing with one another on a map-to-map basis rather than the global ranking. I mean, if you want to do it, go right ahead! I just personally don't think it's worth it with how our current leaderboards work.

2. Is Ranked for mappers to create maps for recognition?
Hell no. I don't endorse mapping that strokes people's big ego. Recognition is nice, sure, but that shouldn't be your main objective. It should be to improve your mapping while creating content with your favourite music and sharing them with others who can appreciate it. Of course, you don't need to get your maps Ranked to do this - there are many other ways. It's simply a choice. The way I see it, the Ranked section is a way to receive feedback while having your content spotlighted for a larger audience so that others can also enjoy your hard work.

3. Is Ranked for BNs/NATs/modders to define?
Well... who knows? Truthfully, it's really hard to answer this one. To me, the job of the BNG is to ensure that the maps passing through the system are at least of good quality. My definition of the Ranked section is "a place where maps of high quality can be polished, then showcased", but other people may have very different views. Both quality and the meaning of the Ranked section are subjective imo. It isn't the BNs/NATs/modders who are defining what Ranked means for everyone, but rather everyone defining it for themselves.

4. "It's disappointing that I don't see BNs make such decisions with players in mind."
What gives you this idea? BNs are players too, and believe it or not, some of us are capable of playing challenging maps. If we can, we playtest everything we nominate. If we can't, we find people who can and ask them to play through to get their thoughts on playability-and-pattern-related issues. At least, this is true of every request I've rejected with high SR. Otherwise, my workload would be significantly harder to keep up with and I'd be more burnt out than I already am. I've always either playtested it myself or asked several players to do so in my stead before writing down my thoughts and moving it off my list. This argument doesn't make much sense to me.

5. "Instead of thinking what the map... ...lesser noticeable thing during gameplay."
No, a map is not completely barred from Ranked because of these tiny errors unless they are major, with the exception of personal taste. (I don't want to spend hours listening to just Nanahira on loop at 25% speed while the map is chock full of patterns I dislike. I won't risk my sanity for a volunteer job with basically no rewards.) Even major errors can be excused. I spent over 2 months checking Murumoo's Coldlapse because I liked the song and the patterning despite the fact that I had to painstakingly point out many inconsistencies, request for a difficulty to be completely removed, and write several walls of text. I even hit the maximum amount of Kudosu you can earn from a single beatmap discussion because of this set. If a tiny issue is pretty much unnoticeable to us during gameplay, we either point it out and then continue as usual, or we let it be. I know from personal experience that I've done this plenty of times. On the contrary, if a map is 100% blocked from being Ranked, the BN generally will have lots of things to say (which has been the case in recent times from what I've seen).

More importantly, we do take the intentions of mappers into account when they confirm with us that certain perceived errors were actually intentional. Trying to understand why a mapper placed down those notes in a certain way is crucial in becoming a Nominator. Most of the time we will let it slide unless it directly violates the RC (so we have no other choice unless we want to be punished on our next evaluation) or is simply too egregious in one way or another (i.e. patterns that don't fit the sounds they're representing on a fundamental level).

abraker wrote:

I guess that's something that needs analysis from a statistical point of view. I can't really comment beyond that since I don't know what goes on before those maps get ranked and other don't.

Maybe, maybe not. It might help put things into perspective though.

Keiga wrote:

abraker wrote:

Lower ranked players want their...

...IcyWorld's post on a little insight.

If they don't agree with how Ranked works, it's not really something under [the BNG's] control. There would need to be a staff decision for this and a system overhaul, and we don't have the power to do that.

It's a system set up given the 8 year precedent or however long ranked existed for. The sad part is that it's impossible to change that because the current system seems to work well enough, and it's impossible to prove a different system can work better without trying it.

Keiga wrote:

I've already seen IcyWorld's response before, but unfortunately I'm not really getting much from it. Maybe I'm missing something, but the post tells me that they're satisfied with their creations already because they fit their own 'personal standards'. They have no intention past the initial creation of the map to continue improving it, which is perfectly fine with me. Enjoying yourself is an important part of mapping after all. But the problem with applying this is that they disagree with the concept of rules itself. Without rules, the Ranked section can very well turn into a mess. Regulations prevent power abuse while also giving those in charge of promoting maps something to agree on for a base level of quality. You wouldn't want to see delta dan level maps labelled as an Easy difficulty - it's misleading to newer players, and it's prevented by the addition of rules, but it's something that can very well happen without them.

I agree there need to be rules, but I am also frustrated by how many mappers those rules deter. This wouldn't be an issue if there was more diversity in ranked.

Keiga wrote:

Dumps: I can see the concern for a lack of dumps if you're someone who plays them often. ...The truth is, these partial dumps just barely managed to scrape by the Ranking Criteria's dreaded line: "Every note should correlate to a sound present in the music". Dump maps that aren't partial are barred by this guideline, and while I don't personally agree with it, it's not really something under my jurisdiction either. You can start a proposal regarding it if you have solid justification, though since I'm not the target audience for dumps (and thus cannot properly judge them), it's unfortunately not something I'd attempt. I also don't think there's many people in the current BNG who have the ability to judge pure dump maps, so solving this problem could very well be too difficult without some big changes being made first.

I remember the discussion on including dumps in RC when it was revamped. It was put off and dismissed because nobody knew how to define or word it into something solid. I don't have an idea how to word properly myself. I've heard that current RC does allow dumps, but as you said, current BN not being able to judge them is definitely not helping.

Keiga wrote:

abraker wrote:

But higher ranking players have a good grasp of what skills are need for the map, and that's all that matters imo.

Sorry, but I vehemently disagree with this one. To me, this translates to "higher ranking players can map better", which is just downright untrue. Being able to play your own maps and weed out playability issues is one thing, but looking at things from a musical point of view is another.

I didn't want to imply "higher ranking players can map better". Just because you know what skills go into the map doesn't mean you can map it yourself. What I meant by that is it's all that matters when players play a map. All the things from musical point of view are meh unless you are musically inclined. I myself can't tell apart pitches very well, so I can't care less whether a note that needs to be on col 4 is on col 1. However, I do care what types of patterns are used and whether they fit the surrounding 1 second section of music.

Keiga wrote:

Dense Streams: As said in my earlier post, I believe there is a bit of a bias against patterning such as dense streams considering how our current BNs are a little more focused on musical representation. Maps that are almost entirely dense streams limit your options greatly as there is little space left to use and while I'm not against ranking maps like this, they should do something interesting (not song choice) to stand out from the others. (This does come down to personal preferences between BNs though. Some will accept dense streams as long as the map is clean and decently layered with a song they like.)

Keiga wrote:

4. "It's disappointing that I don't see BNs make such decisions with players in mind."
What gives you this idea? BNs are players too, and believe it or not, some of us are capable of playing challenging maps. If we can, we playtest everything we nominate. If we can't, we find people who can and ask them to play through to get their thoughts on playability-and-pattern-related issues. At least, this is true of every request I've rejected with high SR. Otherwise, my workload would be significantly harder to keep up with and I'd be more burnt out than I already am. I've always either playtested it myself or asked several players to do so in my stead before writing down my thoughts and moving it off my list. This argument doesn't make much sense to me.

I'm grouping these two replies together because they so perfectly answer what I mean. If BNs made decisions with players in mind there wouldn't be an issue ranking dense stream maps, for instance. Instead, as you said, there is more focus on whether it is clean, decently layered, and with a song they like on top of that. So what it there is little space left or the map doesn't stand out? Does it offer a challenge for players to compete against themselves in leaderboards? Yes? GOOD!

Keiga wrote:

1. Is Ranked for players to compete against each other in leaderboards and pp?
Yes, to an extent....

2. Is Ranked for mappers to create maps for recognition?
Hell no....

3. Is Ranked for BNs/NATs/modders to define?
Well... who knows?

The reason I brought up the "who is ranked for?" question is to give food for thought in regards who is using abusing ranked and who ranked is supposed to be for. For #1, I believe ranked is definitely for the player, but it unfortunately comes least benefit to higher ranking players and most benefit to lower ranking players. For #2 we can both agree it's not for recognition, but mappers do use ranked for recognition despite that. For #3 this question asks you to come to the realization of whether players have any say when it comes to rank. I often see player opinions shut down because they don't have sufficient mapping experience, but their opinions are as equally important because they are on the receiving end of the whole ranking process.

Keiga wrote:

5. "Instead of thinking what the map... ...lesser noticeable thing during gameplay."
No, a map is not completely barred from Ranked because of these tiny errors unless they are major, with the exception of personal taste.

What is a tiny error or major is as subjective as choosing when to enforce guidelines. I don't believe similar issues in different maps will give mappers an equally hard or easy time getting the maps ranked. This creates an inherent frustration and distrust of the system as a whole, which again, is a good way to deter potential mappers.

This discussion isn't gonna go anywhere based on how the responses are going.

LN maps are obviously split amongst players; whether you like it or not, that's your opinion. That shouldn't mean it's necessarily the BNs fault.
You're bound to see more LN maps ranked by the same group of people because they either have a higher understanding or they have a strong justification ( which kinda ties into the first point but that's w/e ).

There's a bunch of LN maps out there, but they'll either fall into these two categories: aesthetics and representation.
Whether you like one or the other ( or maybe neither or both ), that's your own opinion. Like hell, I even have my own opinion about them lmao.

If you're mad that LN maps are pp farm and whatnot, cool, blame it on the sr calc.
If you're mad that LN maps aren't fun, cool, just don't play them.

If you don't like what's being pushed into rank, cool, try applying for BN so you can push map that you yourself want to see; if not, don't blame the people that are volunteering their time to push maps into ranked.

@Furryy glad that Keiga's explanation of LN maps helped out; it's heavily split amongst players since almost always so this is always gonna be a reoccurring issue