5.0x will be enough

[Dellirium] wrote:

5.0x will be enough

I don't think so. I've used gimmicks with more than 5.0x and it's still 100% readable.

Effect is a vague term. Could someone clarify this for me? What does adjusting SV have to do with effect?

real song bpm change-> use bpm change
want to achieve some visual effect but song bpm doesn't change -> use sv

hi chonicle thanks for joining us in the discussion <3

So what's considered an improper use of slider velocity if that is considered a rule. Does one have to visually notice the slider velocity change for it to take effect? Can modders use this rule at all?

when it doesn't make sense to any of the playtesters or modders. good enough?

Agka wrote:

when it doesn't make sense to any of the playtesters or modders. good enough?

If this is a serious reply, then let it be known that it's way too vague to throw in the rules.

Jacob wrote:

Agka wrote:

when it doesn't make sense to any of the playtesters or modders. good enough?

If this is a serious reply, then let it be known that it's way too vague to throw in the rules.

"Not making sense" has been a criteria for being unrankable since at least 2008.

If we're talking about not making sense, then wouldn't the rule be addressing how well the SV change matches the tempo of the music.

SV changes must match tempo of music. <Better phrased than woc's rule.

I'm not saying "unrankable if it doesn't make sense". I'm saying "unrankable if pretty much everyone agrees on the SV change not making sense".

That's hardly vague. :3

TheVileOne wrote:

So what's considered an improper use of slider velocity if that is considered a rule. Does one have to visually notice the slider velocity change for it to take effect? Can modders use this rule at all?

There is no specific rules about what kind of speed change is rankable or not.

Just remember when the tempo of the song doesn't change, red lines should not be used

TheVileOne wrote:

So what's considered an improper use of slider velocity if that is considered a rule. Does one have to visually notice the slider velocity change for it to take effect? Can modders use this rule at all?

i think the best say it is about how it fits into the music. like you cant just do SV changes at random points in the song, they will make no effect at all. But if there is a minimal break you could kinda make a little stop effect or if it is hinted you can make a drop effect with a short speedup between notes. Its important the player should know why those things are used and the mapper to. The player should know what it is supposed to be even when first time playing. It just gotta fit the music, so yeah the rule dont do stupid things lol.

Making rules for SV use is a bad idea. It's hard to come up with a good rule that you can say 100% of the time makes sense. If the rule does not make sense 100% of the time, for every song, then it should not be a rule, but a guideline.

Limiting SV speeds and controlling SV usage should be a guideline.

If I was writing a rule for SV's, it would be this:

"You must be able to explain why you used an SV based on something in the music." That's it. If you want to emphasize a section of silence by teporarily stopping or nearly stopping notes, go ahead. If you want to emphasize the music creating a high-energy section by suddenly cranking up the SV, then you should be allowed to do that too. It's very difficult to have SV changes that are too extreme to read, and even if it's too hard to sightread the first time, making every map sightreadable 100% of the time is a bad idea. It makes maps boring.

Not every mapper will make use of SV changes, and not every mapper who will use SV changes will try to go to extremes. Modding with a guideline to back the modders up should be enough to deal with the times when someone makes something that is too extreme. When someone like Entozer, Chronicle, Hanyuu, Myself, Gon, Agka, or anyone else who has experience with mania and mapping says something is too much it probably is, and that should be enough.

Here are some numbers:
One of my favorite o2jam charts, Hishoku no Sora has a BPM range of 21-761 and a base BPM of 169. 21 BPM is 0.124xBPM and 761 is roughly 4.5x. Both of these values are perfectly readable, and come at times that make sense (there are a few aesthetic sections, like the speedup on the middle button hold partway through, and a slowdown before a middle button hold ends).

Celestial Rhapsody is 140 BPM and ranges from 10 BPM to 910 BPM, effectively 0.07x to 6.5x

Re-Sublimity ranges is 135 BPM and ranges from 67 to 945, or about 0.5x to 7x

Burst the Gravity is 148 BPM and ranges from 26 to 1850, or 0.17x to 12.5x. This is the only one where it is honestly impossible to play the speedup without learning it first. It's also more than 10x, which as I understand it is the maximum SV changes handle anyway, that's a moot point.

Every one of these is perfectly playable. The speed changes may sometimes make it very difficult to FC these songs, but FCing something SHOULD be very difficult. The wider the difference between a pass and an FC, but more it separates pros from average players, which is always a good thing. And yes, these maps are mostly aimed towards good players, but there is no rule that says speed changes like this need to apply to every difficulty. It would not be difficult to create an easier difficulty in a map that has lower SV changes than the more difficult diffs.

Bobbias wrote:

Making rules for SV use is a bad idea. It's hard to come up with a good rule that you can say 100% of the time makes sense. If the rule does not make sense 100% of the time, for every song, then it should not be a rule, but a guideline.

Limiting SV speeds and controlling SV usage should be a guideline.

If I was writing a rule for SV's, it would be this:

"You must be able to explain why you used an SV based on something in the music." That's it. If you want to emphasize a section of silence by teporarily stopping or nearly stopping notes, go ahead. If you want to emphasize the music creating a high-energy section by suddenly cranking up the SV, then you should be allowed to do that too. It's very difficult to have SV changes that are too extreme to read, and even if it's too hard to sightread the first time, making every map sightreadable 100% of the time is a bad idea. It makes maps boring.

Suddenly I agree with this.

Currently I don't want to add any rules against SV usage, left it free for mappers and let MATs to check if they should be uesd in some ways.

We're not making much progress with this.

woc I agree that it shouldn't have very many rules, but somethings are just nonsense. Perhaps there should be a guideline on unreadable speed changes. I'm sure taiko players hate songs that randomly have 2.0/0.5x changes in conversions. Similarly I would think that doing such things in osu!mania should be avoided, because they can disorient the player. Mania Speed changes must not be used to disorient the player. Sudden changes in speed must be sightreadable for the difficulty level being mapped.

I think the guideline for slider velocities counts here. I mean lets compare it to taiko. Taiko strongly recommends you use particular slider velocities and to keep the pace the same. I really don't know how many rhythm games have tracks that change speed. I know my knowledge is very limited, but I'm sure the ones that do and are professionally made use speed changes in ways that complement the music. If you're going to change the speed, it should complement the music.

This guideline should count especially for osu!mania

When including a slider velocity change, there should be a discernible change in the map's tempo. A spacing change, a short break in the map, or a slider containing at least one tick will help show the transition between them.

Correct me if I am wrong about this. I am at college and cannot check, but the track speed is similar to AR in standard. The lower it is, the longer notes stay on the screen and the higher it is, the less notes are visible on the screen. So wouldn't having no rules about it be the same as saying we should let players choose from AR 0 to AR 10+ in any of the other modes. Maniaspeed can get ridiculously fast, it has to be greater than AR 10 at some point. Does user adjusted mania speed settings stack on top of speed adjustments? If the user has it set to 16, and the SV increases, what happens? Clarify this so I will not be ignorant about it in the future.

Edit: We still need a comprehensive ruleset. I don't know when this will be finished, but we'll be discussion this stuff over and over if we do not have an easily accessible reference point for rules. What do mania players not want in their maps? I know it's going to be hard to sacrifice some of your creative freedom, but do you really want an anything goes kind of ruleset? What do mania players dislike and want to avoid in general? We're going to develop guidelines here, and hopefully we can compile those guidelines together. If you have one, try to put it into a guideline form with the main topic as bold and supporting details following after it.

TheVileOne wrote:

We're not making much progress with this.

I can agree with that.

TheVileOne wrote:

I think the guideline for slider velocities counts here. I mean lets compare it to taiko.

Let's not. Osu!mania is a different game, and SV changes do not affect mania as much as they affect taiko. Notes cannot overlap eachother like they can in taiko when changing speed. Also, because taiko uses very large hitobjects, there are fewer notes on screen, which means that the speeds need to be faster for a given BPM.

TheVileOne wrote:

If you're going to change the speed, it should complement the music.

Which is EXACTLY what I said in my post.

TheVileOne wrote:

This guideline should count especially for osu!mania

When including a slider velocity change, there should be a discernible change in the map's tempo. A spacing change, a short break in the map, or a slider containing at least one tick will help show the transition between them.

Correct me if I am wrong about this. I am at college and cannot check, but the track speed is similar to AR in standard.

You're forgetting something: Adjustable speed. In mania, scroll speed is not absolute because the user can change their speed multiplier, which gives the player a way to compensate for wild swings in speed by lowering or raising their speed to compensate.

Agka submitted a guest diff for xi - Blue Zenith which is 200 BPM and uses SV changes to go up to 1.6x (effectively 320 BPM). Normally, I would read 200 BM at speed 12, but since this map uses SV changes to go faster, I need to lower my speed to about 10 to read the fast parts effectively. If your AR suddenly jumped from 7 to 9 in standard, and you can't read anything above 7, you have no way to lower it so that it goes from 5 to 7, but in mania we can effectively do that with speed settings. This makes SV changes much less of an issue.

TheVileOne wrote:

Does user adjusted mania speed settings stack on top of speed adjustments? If the user has it set to 16, and the SV increases, what happens? Clarify this so I will not be ignorant about it in the future.

Maybe you should actually play mania, instead of presuming to tell players and mappers who have been playing and mapping mania how the game should work. Speed changes are a multiplier, as far as I know. I believe they have a linear relationship, because if I play a 100 BPM song at speed 20, and a 200 BPM song at speed 10, they will be scrolling at or very close to the same speed. If I was playing a 150 BPM map at speed 17 (which is what I play at) and there was an SV change to 2x, the scroll speed would be equivalent to 300 BPM at speed 17, or 150 BPM at speed 34 (which doesn't exist). Now, most SV changes at or above 2x are not meant to last for a long time.

TheVileOne, you're missing the point I'm trying to make here: not everyone will use SV changes to make things unreadabe. Most mappers will never use it for anything more than dealing with legitimate speed changes in the song. You admit you don't know a lot about mania, maybe you should stop trying to control something you don't understand, and let the people who do understand it discuss things.

TheVileOne wrote:

Edit: We still need a comprehensive ruleset. I don't know when this will be finished, but we'll be discussion this stuff over and over if we do not have an easily accessible reference point for rules. What do mania players not want in their maps? I know it's going to be hard to sacrifice some of your creative freedom, but do you really want an anything goes kind of ruleset? What do mania players dislike and want to avoid in general? We're going to develop guidelines here, and hopefully we can compile those guidelines together. If you have one, try to put it into a guideline form with the main topic as bold and supporting details following after it.

What a mania player dislikes has nothing to do with what the rules should be. I hate linear mapping in osu standard with a passion, but I don't think there should be a rule against it. I hate low AR on more difficult maps (anything AR8 or below on an insane counts for the purpose of my personal opinion) but I'm not saying we need a rule for that either. We DO want more creative freedom, because we know that the people who will take advantage of that are the people who understand mapping for mania. You know how taiko players mostly play unranked stuff? If you make restrictive rules, you are going to force the pros of mania to do that too. We need to set things up in a way that allows for newcomers to have friendly accessible maps that they can learn on and improve on, and we also need to be able to at the very least have a good collection of ranked or accepted pro level maps.

You asked what i like and dislike and want to avoid in general? I like maps with creativity, something that defines that map in my mind for me. This map has tons of holds in really fun but difficult patterns. This map has lots of speed changes, fun holds, and 2 mashes, all of which I enjoy. This map has a whole bunch of really difficult awkward symmetrical patterns. What don't I like? Offsync mapping, mapping sounds that don't exist, holding back and not making the highest difficulty level for a map actually difficult. Not a whole lot I don't like. What do I want to avoid? Forcing players to turn to unranked/graveyard or unsubmitted maps!

I do not need to know the particulars about how a mania player plays the game. I have not said anything ludicrous in nature concerning the playability of mania. I was pointing out that patterns that disorient the player should not be used. The point of mapping something should not be to deceive or mislead the player. If you are changing the slider velocity or mapping a pattern to do just that, then you're mapping for the wrong reasons.

Taiko has optimal SV requirements for just such a reason. If the SV is too high or too low it affects the readability of the notes. The same is the case in osu!mania. The ability to change the speed of the chart is irrelevant IMO, because a map's maniaspeed should be optimal by default and any required changes should be purely personal preference rather than necessity. And if you want to go that route of debate, you are arguing that changing the maniaspeed does have an effect on how easy/hard something is and I can counter that manipulation of this goes against how the mania mapper wanted the song to be played. Also as a side note, unless they reverted it, you can only change maniaspeed during breaks.

An additional point is that setting the SV too high, will create a maniaspeed amount that is higher than what you can set in game. woc is talking about adding 5.0x SV into the game. 5.0 x for 16 maniaspeed = 80. 10 = 50 maniaspeed.

Is this going to be a sane amount by any degree? Would you ever need to have tracks going that fast ever? If you agree that it should match the song, then you should admit that a maniaspeed that is equivalent to a 500 BPM song should never be allowed. It would never fit the music.

I am not trying to limit freedom. If it doesn't disorient the player, then fine. But if it's distracting then it's advised that you do not do it. If it's not sightreadable, then it's most likely a terrible speed transition. Look at 2.0x sections in taiko if you want to know what I mean by not sightreadable, and yes its relevant. If notes just start flying down the screen out of nowhere, then its unreadable. It would be a guideline, because subjective, but it would at least prevent some of the omg why patterns and make songs playable for more people than those who can read and play maniaspeeds greater than the allowed maximum setting.

There is no need to worry about being able to play pro quality levels right out the doors. If we incorporate guidelines, we can always just change them later. But for right now it's not helpful if you give a newer mapper nothing for guidelines. They can just use anything they want, because there are no standards, because mania mappers are complaining about a non-existent problem concerning pro maps not being ranked. If there is a reason to break a guideline, do so. Guidelines prevent newer mappers from making mapping mistakes.

Edit: Since I do not know that much about it, I will go back to lurking. Please keep arguments valid and come up with guidelines modders who aren't pro at osumania can abide by when they mod and map.

you are forgetting that we get speed mods by default. songs are not played at 1x :v

and players have different comfort zones even at same bpms.

people might like 12x on 180 bpm other might like 8x or 15x.

As I said, we can't make rules on anything that unmeasurable, SV limitation is the case.

But as guideline, I would like to write it this way:
Don't use SV when you're not sure about what you're doing.

woc2006 wrote:

As I said, we can't make rules on anything that unmeasurable, SV limitation is the case.

But as guideline, I would like to write it this way:
Don't use SV when you're not sure about what you're doing.

That's not a guideline, lol.
Putting stuff like "Dont do stuff that sucks" or "Dont put stuff you dont understand" is too general and absolutely pointless.

SV Guideline: Using SV changes are allowed only if there is a significant change in the music's mood/pace/theme. Magnitude of SV changes are up to mapper's discretion.

Further Edit:

I'm not sure how osu!mania handles scroll speed, so I can't say anything about the multiplier of SV changes. In my experience, the mechanisms of the scroll change are really different compared to others (o2jam for example). We'll have to find out how stuff works first (or what works good) before we can set concrete guidelines in values of SV changes.

The only problem I can think of is SV changes in the middle of a long note. Unless the long note's behavior is intentional, putting SV changes in the middle of long notes should be avoided for now.

If it is intentional behavior, then we'll have to find the calculations on how to make the sliders end (and start) exactly where we place them.

Entozer wrote:

SV Guideline: Using SV changes are allowed only if there is a significant change in the music's mood/pace/theme. Magnitude of SV changes are up to mapper's discretion.

Agree

Entozer wrote:

SV Guideline: Using SV changes are allowed only if there is a significant change in the music's mood/pace/theme. Magnitude of SV changes are up to mapper's discretion.

Further Edit:

I'm not sure how osu!mania handles scroll speed, so I can't say anything about the multiplier of SV changes. In my experience, the mechanisms of the scroll change are really different compared to others (o2jam for example). We'll have to find out how stuff works first (or what works good) before we can set concrete guidelines in values of SV changes.

The only problem I can think of is SV changes in the middle of a long note. Unless the long note's behavior is intentional, putting SV changes in the middle of long notes should be avoided for now.

If it is intentional behavior, then we'll have to find the calculations on how to make the sliders end (and start) exactly where we place them.

Don't worry, SV bugs all fixed.

About the mechanism: I've tried 1~65535x SV in a map and it works good.

woc2006 wrote:

Entozer wrote:

SV Guideline: Using SV changes are allowed only if there is a significant change in the music's mood/pace/theme. Magnitude of SV changes are up to mapper's discretion.

Agree

Agree'd as well.

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/593533
it's got really better (talking about ln bugfixes)
but there's still a few cases left such as this (should be few beats later)

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/593538
this one in weapon starts before

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/593547
another case where it's off

thanks woc the improvement is very noticeable on everything else <3

Agka wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/593533
it's got really better (talking about ln bugfixes)
but there's still a few cases left such as this (should be few beats later)

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/593538
this one in weapon starts before

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/593547
another case where it's off

thanks woc the improvement is very noticeable on everything else <3

SV,holds and barlines all fixed. everything is perfect in next build.

I was about to report the current bug hold but I guess it's fixed now, Thanks woc.

EDIT:
Cancel that out, the bug still occurs when you change the bpm inside the hold note. The SV changes were fixed though.

EDIT2: Thank you for fixing it, can't wait for the next patch.

Bobbias wrote:

You asked what i like and dislike and want to avoid in general? I like maps with creativity, something that defines that map in my mind for me. This map has tons of holds in really fun but difficult patterns. This map has lots of speed changes, fun holds, and 2 mashes, all of which I enjoy. This map has a whole bunch of really difficult awkward symmetrical patterns. What don't I like? Offsync mapping, mapping sounds that don't exist, holding back and not making the highest difficulty level for a map actually difficult. Not a whole lot I don't like. What do I want to avoid? Forcing players to turn to unranked/graveyard or unsubmitted maps!

I cried :') +100 respect points to you.

Can we just put one mania diff together with some standard diff just like what we do for the taiko diff?

ACOMG wrote:

Can we just put one mania diff together with some standard diff just like what we do for the taiko diff?

From o!mRC:

Each beatmap must have at least 2 difficulties and one of them must be Easy/Normal.

[Dellirium] wrote:

ACOMG wrote:

Can we just put one mania diff together with some standard diff just like what we do for the taiko diff?

From o!mRC:

Each beatmap must have at least 2 difficulties and one of them must be Easy/Normal.

I knew it, but this is not fair. We can have Standard+1CTB diff and Standard+1taiko diff. Then why can't we have Standard +1mania diff?

ACOMG wrote:

I knew it, but this is not fair. We can have Standard+1CTB diff and Standard+1taiko diff. Then why can't we have Standard +1mania diff?

Hmm, as i know, the same rule shoud be in Taiko, but I couldn't find it in TRC... Maybe someone forgot to add it?

UPD: Nvm, found it here. Mapset section, first rule.

Not having an easier diff is unfair for newbies.

Go into #modhelp or #osumania and yell. "Screw newbies!"

Yeah.

Agka wrote:

Not having an easier diff is unfair for newbies.

I agree.We must have lots of easy diffs now because o!m is pretty new mode here.

I suggest replace this rule in RC:

Mapsets must have at least two osu! standard or Taiko difficulties, one of which must be an Easy/Normal level. It is possible for Marathon difficulties to have only 1 difficulty, but it must be named Marathon for the BSS to allow the submission to pending.

with

Mapsets must have at least two osu! standard, Taiko or o!m difficulties, one of which must be an Easy/Normal level. You must have at least 2 difficulties in every of these game modes if you have more than one. For example, you can't have have 2 Taiko and 1 osu! standard diffs.
• It is possible for Marathon difficulties to have only 1 difficulty, but it must be named Marathon for the BSS to allow the submission to pending.

And we can remove this rule:

A mapset cannot have just one Taiko difficulty. If you decide to include Taiko in your map, make sure you have at least 2 Taiko mode difficulties and that one of them is of an easier difficulty level if it doesn't have an osu! standard Easy level difficulty.

Any objections?

I agree.

I need an agreement from BAT or admin to change the rules :3

This is about a general mapset rule, so we must take a look at future mapsets as a whole, to be fair if we're going to limit o!m to a minimum of 2 diffs one of each must be Easy/Normal level from the get go, since we already do the same for standard and Taiko, this change should be revised for CTB as well.
It makes sense to me that way.

The problem is that there are still too few mania maps in the ecosystem. Limiting them right now would just make it harder to get any ranked and jumpstart mania mapping - I'd say wait until there's at least 20-30 mania maps ranked to impose a two-diff rule on them, CTB is probably fine to amend that now since there's a good 20 maps with CTB diffs.

Yeah that'd probably be the best, tho what i'd like would be to make the rules for min. diffs and diff spread count for each game mode separately in a mapset, and then everything's fair and the same for everyone. Something like


This is basically the same as what already exists, but it would count for all game modes, then we'd edit the diff. spread rule in a similar way.