Ekaru wrote:

Entozer wrote:

Unless there are somea lot of retarded keyboards I don't know of that literally limits any key combinations to 4-5 keys, there shouldn't be anything in the guideline/ranking criteria that limits the amount of keys we can press at the same moment.

There are a lot of "retarded" keyboards that you don't know of, then. And I mean a lot.

Forgive me if I'm quite the stubborn one but unless they tried every possible key combinations within comfortable range of playing osu!mania for those keyboards, there shouldn't be a limit in the ranking criteria. And also, it would be great if people could name the model of their keyboard that can't press anything more than 4 keys not including modifier keys.

Ranking criteria should NOT be based on whether some people with bad hardware can or can't play something.

Similarly, it's never a good idea to completely ban certain things just because they are extremely difficult for most players. This is a skill based game. If someone doesnt have the skill to pass a map, too bad; someone else quite possibly does. Just because I'm terrible at this map doesnt mean it should be made unrankable. Sure, it's full of jackhammers. In fact, the whole point of the map was jackhammer practice. The jackhammers still make sense, so it should be rankable. (Also, I'm just using that as an example, but the point is that there are plenty of times when extremely difficult sections or patterns just make sense, including mashes. While mashes should generally be frowned upon, and should only be allowed if the mapper can explain exactly why they want a mash, I do think that in limited cases mashes and extremely difficult patterns should be allowed.)

Bobbias wrote:

Ranking criteria should NOT be based on whether some people with bad hardware can or can't play something.

Similarly, it's never a good idea to completely ban certain things just because they are extremely difficult for most players. This is a skill based game. If someone doesnt have the skill to pass a map, too bad; someone else quite possibly does. Just because I'm terrible at this map doesnt mean it should be made unrankable. Sure, it's full of jackhammers. In fact, the whole point of the map was jackhammer practice. The jackhammers still make sense, so it should be rankable. (Also, I'm just using that as an example, but the point is that there are plenty of times when extremely difficult sections or patterns just make sense, including mashes. While mashes should generally be frowned upon, and should only be allowed if the mapper can explain exactly why they want a mash, I do think that in limited cases mashes and extremely difficult patterns should be allowed.)

Yeah, I agree with you.
Most of the ranking criteria part should be guidelines - whenever a mapper can explain why there should be something(e.g. jackhammers, mashes, slider sea and many more), it should be OK.

Anyway, the point is that to prevent overuse of these styles, not to prevent using them at all.

And for another thing: the difficulty span.

wikipage wrote:

Each beatmap must have at least 2 difficulties and one of them must be Easy/Normal. You can raise the keyamount with increasing difficulty but not vica versa. Means:
if you have an Easy 4K, you can have a Hard 6K.
If you have an Easy 6K, you can not have a Hard 4K.
If you have an Easy 4K, you can have a Hard 4K (obvious).

The first question is: How easy is "easy/normal"?
Like some of the former member said, there were a great amount of insane "easy" charts in other games. They are insane, very very insane that even the easy diff is harder than most of "insane" diffs.
Now you may say, "Put a limitation on max difficulty on easy diff is OK." In my former post, I have pointed out that due to the o!m playing style, it's really pointless to make an easy-as-pie diff for a few songs.
I have a thought to change the rule to: "Each beatmap must have at least 2 difficulties and one of them must be visibilly easier than one of other diff." Which means that there should be at least one diff that is clearly easy to insane diff.(The diff may still be very hard, just like oni and inner-oni in taiko.)

The second question is: Why should we put limit on keyamount?
It's clear that high keyamount is not equal to high difficulty. And in many cases, especially in "normal" diffs, with the same note count, higher keyamout map is easier. 4key is hard for the density of notes in the map, and 7/8key is hard for taking care of every key. They all have different aspect on difficulty, so we can expect mapper to use that wisely. Furthermore, many mappers are willing to make a less-keyamount map as an addition to their existing 7key maps. If the rule is applied, they have to reduce the difficulty of their 4key map or to raise the difficulty of 7key maps(Making a map unreasonably harder is more unbearable than making easy thing and that's already in other modes' criteria!) just to satisfy the rule. Wouldn't that be silly?
So my suggestion is that to take away the keyamount rule.

A map is easier when the patterns are simpler and the note density is lower.

A map is easy when a newbie can do them.

I'd rather have a guideline to say (though i'd leave it as a tip) to not use a chord above 6 keys, personally, but hardly to make something unrankable because you have to mash all 7/8 keys.

the rule of "limiting keyamounts" it's so it makes sense, not because we hate having easy 7ks and hard 4ks on a mapset.

Entozer wrote:

Forgive me if I'm quite the stubborn one but unless they tried every possible key combinations within comfortable range of playing osu!mania for those keyboards, there shouldn't be a limit in the ranking criteria. And also, it would be great if people could name the model of their keyboard that can't press anything more than 4 keys not including modifier keys.

Read these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollover_%28key%29
http://www.microsoft.com/appliedscience ... ained.mspx

Rollover and ghosting are things. As for proof with model names, here you go:

http://hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1523154.html

Will I need to get out the mechanical keyboard review site that specifies the max amount of keys each keyboard they review can press, or is this enough? BTW, this keyboard at school has three-key combinations that don't work, like FG+ D, S, or A. You have to use very specific combinations to get the maximum of 6... which still rules out 7-key presses. Anyways, there are indeed many keyboards with 4- or 5-key rollover.

EDIT: Added a link and reworded things. I originally mixed up n-key rollover and ghosting. Oops.

My USB keyboard can't press 7 keys at the same time. Configuring my left keys to [shift] [z] [x] fixes the problem tho still near on space bar x.x

I think I have to agree implementing osu!mania ranking criteria in each key modes. Not everyone is good on 7 keys, or 8 keys lol. After each key modes, I would also suggest that there's an overall osu!mania ranking where in more keys, higher rank but I guess its kinda complicated.

Well but i think it is about map ranking critieria and not about if you keyboard cant play this game. Also 6 or 7 at once is rarely used anyways and the people that play songs with such a difficulty have a keyboard that works for the game ....

arcwinolivirus wrote:

My USB keyboard can't press 7 keys at the same time. Configuring my left keys to [shift] [z] [x] fixes the problem tho still near on space bar x.x

That's because Shift is a modifier key, so it's not counted in the typical total of 6 normal keys for USB*. Though, who wants to do weird set-ups like that?

Cap of 4 for Easy through Hard and 6 for Insanes would probably be the best compromise, though. It's mainly more casual players that will have keyboards that can't go all the way up to 6, right?

*Not 6 of any combo of normal keys, mind you, but sdfjkl + space shouldn't have any conflicts or trouble getting to 6, right?

Don't cap the keys, it's a terrible idea lol.

just mod the mappers so they don't do stupid stuff (eg insanes only)
and everyone will be happy.

Agka wrote:

Don't cap the keys, it's a terrible idea lol.

just mod the mappers so they don't do stupid stuff (eg insanes only)
and everyone will be happy.

Proposing a cap on key modes you can do would be stupid - all keyboards can handle 8K as long as there are no all-key presses.

As far as a simultaneous button-pressing rule, though? It'd be best for you guys to establish a fairly lenient rule now before some modders with low-KRO keyboards go in and start making up rules and then you wind up with modders saying "NO 5-KEY PRESSES ON INSANE IT NO WORK" and crap and then you have to keep on telling them to fix their set-up and then the thread derails into an argument of casuals VS people who actually know what they're talking about.

Then a new rule is made in an attempt to settle things down and it's something like, "only 2 keys at same time max pl0x kthx" and then everyone ragequits. I speak from experience. >_>

Ekaru. That's why Im exactly saying there are no keyboard that can't do 7key presses. You yourself had said that you have to use a specific key combination to get to 6 key, which what I'm trying to tell you in the second post I made +1 modifier key.

In my USB keyboard I had it set to shiftZX+space+KL; just to be able to press 7keys. In other keyboards I have to use QWE space ./Shift. There are no reasons not to be able to press 7 keys. And I have read all the articles you presented a long time ago, too.

If you want to know who uses a "weird" set-up like shiftZX space KL;, I do. And Here's proof. You might not see it well but I am practically using shiftZX space KL;.

/keyboard

"Capping the keys is a terrible idea."

@Hanyuu
To be honest all I stated was limiting the amount of simultaneous keypress shouldn't be in the ranking criteria at all but because of the premises they gave I have to argue with keyboards.

Entozer wrote:

That's why Im exactly saying there are no keyboard that can't do 7key presses.
There are no reasons not to be able to press 7 keys.

Oh my god...

i bet you didn't see entozer's vid

Agka wrote:

i bet you didn't see entozer's vid

I did

then so it is, no excuses

Agka wrote:

A map is easier when the patterns are simpler and the note density is lower.

A map is easy when a newbie can do them.

I'd rather have a guideline to say (though i'd leave it as a tip) to not use a chord above 6 keys, personally, but hardly to make something unrankable because you have to mash all 7/8 keys.

the rule of "limiting keyamounts" it's so it makes sense, not because we hate having easy 7ks and hard 4ks on a mapset.

YES, a map will go easier when the patterns are simplier and the note density is lower. But there are limitations to a few songs - making them too easy would just be pointless. That's my meaning.

I'm not meaning that everything should be insane/insane+.

For a few songs, even if you try to make it easier, when following the rhythm of the song, it may still be so hard that beginners would just treat them as madness. An example is Nightmare in DJMAX BS- they tried very hard to make an easier mapset of the song, but just failed. They made a mapset that are partly strange to the rhythm - and YES, the mapset is still too hard for beginners!


So to make it clear, my meaning is that not to use the so-called "easy/normal rule" just for beginners, who can avoid choosing the easiest diff on a few song which is marked as "easy" but are just insane.

which is why i proposed to have at least two diffs for whatever you want to plug mania in.

Hmm, Tab - Q - W - P - [ - ] - \ works with my PS/2 keyboard from 2004. Add in Space and I can do 8K holds - heck, I can do 11K holds. >_> The default controls can't even do 5K holds on both of my home keyboards, though.

However, forcing people to change their keys to specific combinations is not user friendly. It's the complete opposite.

After thinking it over, though, I think the best solution is simply to make a tutorial explaining how to make your keyboard work for osu!mania. That Microsoft article/program makes doing so pretty easy TBH. And if you have a keyboard with a low NKRO then you can just get a cheapo one that will work without doing anything crazy. That way you guys could keep your 7/8K holds while newer players don't have to waste time trying to figure out why they can't do said holds.

...Or complain on the internet about them. You know who you are.

7 keys the same time = approved
There's no different between ranked and approved in score/ranking, but the app status tell you everything in the map means challenge, challenge to your skill and your keyboard.

woc2006 wrote:

7 keys the same time = approved
There's no different between ranked and approved in score/ranking, but the app status tell you everything in the map means challenge, challenge to your skill and your keyboard.

I think this is a perfectly acceptable solution.

Some guidelines from myself:
It's better to have both odd and even key amount diffs in a mapset to let more players have fun. like 4+5+7 or 6+7+8, but depends on the song.

Doesn't need to make less key easier than more keys. 4K insane + 7K normal is acceptable, but this makes 7K players confuse, so 4K insane + 7K normal & insane is better. In a word, avoid leaving insane a single diff and the least key.

^@ I remember peppy said that 4k Insane with 8k Easy is not wanted.
Tho it should be avoided.

Did you decide to add SV change (inherit green line) support for speed changes in custom specifically made maps? This should be done very soon so we can finally start mapping stuff to the fullest.

Approval and ranking are the same and almost nothing should be approved. The only difference between the two is that one is for "gimmick" maps. Gimmick maps being things like storyboarded games modes (technika for example), marathons, or other similar things. NOT for maps that are too hard or don't have easier difficulties or whatever.

woc2006 wrote:

Some guidelines from myself:
It's better to have both odd and even key amount diffs in a mapset to let more players have fun. like 4+5+7 or 6+7+8, but depends on the song.

Doesn't need to make less key easier than more keys. 4K insane + 7K normal is acceptable, but this makes 7K players confuse, so 4K insane + 7K normal & insane is better. In a word, avoid leaving insane a single diff and the least key.

With discussion with woc2006, I found the point is "If the hardest diff is not the most number in keys, there should be another easier diff for that key, or you should make another diff at the same difficulty level with more keys. If there are only one diff in one key number and that's not the most key number, it should not be the highest diff."

Edit: At current rule, mappers can easy break this by splitting maps into key-specific maps (e.g. 4k normal,hard,insane+7k normal+hard [illegal] -> 4k*3[legal]+7k*2[legal].) But it's very clear - that's nonsense.

that's actually a good thing anyway @ different key modes with 3x difficulties.

Loctav wrote:

^@ I remember peppy said that 4k Insane with 8k Easy is not wanted.
Tho it should be avoided.

Did you decide to add SV change (inherit green line) support for speed changes in custom specifically made maps? This should be done very soon so we can finally start mapping stuff to the fullest.

yep, i agree with peppy, but i said it's just acceptable not rankable.

Let me finish SV this weekend.

woc2006 wrote:

Let me finish SV this weekend.

Thanks, it's working great. Would be better if it can reach up to x5.0 without going through the .osu file though.

You must not edit .osu files to achieve what you want. This is unrankable (for good reasons)

legit question, why? :p

Because everything that you intend on doing must be strictly limited by what the editor can do. Aside from things that doesn't change gameplay (GridSize) or necessary slider fixes to get the last drum roll (Taiko), the .osu file should just be there to exist.

in other words, doing something like editing the .osu file for replacing sliders for holds (for osu!mania in particular) would be perfectly rankable since it wouldn't affect gameplay if you compare it to the slider counterpart?

those wrote:

Because everything that you intend on doing must be strictly limited by what the editor can do. Aside from things that doesn't change gameplay (GridSize) or necessary slider fixes to get the last drum roll (Taiko), the .osu file should just be there to exist.

though there's great limitation on speed changing so that we can not achieve what we want without editing the file.
we'll have to wait for woc2006 to see what happens.

anyway, I do think we need more effort to make speed changing perfectly supported using current green point method due to real number errors, especially when using very high bpm, causing the song offsets wrongly after each speed change. and actually the 0.1x to 10x range is SURELY NOT ENOUGH.

another suggestion, why not guiding mappers to write a widely-used-in-song BPM somewhere on song? In most siturations you'll just see 0-99999 bpm on these songs, and that's just meaningless.

There might surely be a guide on how to create smooth SV changes when the time comes.

Right now, SV changes are working like BPM changes but there are still some bugs. For example, A long note that is slowed down in the middle makes the hold look longer (and earlier), while a long note that is sped up makes it look shorter (and looks needed to be pressed in a more later time). Hopefully it will be fixed soon.

And woc needs to increase the limit of the SV change for osu!mania

Entozer wrote:

There might surely be a guide on how to create smooth SV changes when the time comes.

Right now, SV changes are working like BPM changes but there are still some bugs. For example, A long note that is slowed down in the middle makes the hold look longer (and earlier), while a long note that is sped up makes it look shorter (and looks needed to be pressed in a more later time). Hopefully it will be fixed soon.

And woc needs to increase the limit of the SV change for osu!mania

True that. . xD

and agree. . o3o

I also can't do x0.25 yet :<

Now I've lost my motivation again :/

rickyboi wrote:

I also can't do x0.25 yet :<

Now I've lost my motivation again :/

If you can't do something that you'd like to be able to do, Feature Request it. It's always worth a shot, even if you get a classic "No." post.

Do we need to force ranked mania maps so that they can be SSed by osu!topus?

If so, we can avoid some common fault or mania code bugs causing maps hard to play or even showing incorrectly.

Edit: what I found causing auto fails to get 300g includes:
(1) circles instantly following by sliders. (very, very short interval. though actually playable by players)
(2) circles that are in the sliders. (you can see that, you can play that, and of course you can't get 300g on both the circle and the slider.)
(3) super-short sliders. ( that will make the note completely invisible. also, only very,very short sliders can trigger that)

I'd like to ask about the porting chart issue. Since we already have ranked Ouendan and Taiko authentic charts, how is it different from IIDX/o2mania/DJMax etc. ?

Ouendan and Taiko charts probably doesn't mind it nor made a statement about having their charts/maps copied to another game (Random assumptions) Whereas one of those games you mentioned have mentioned about copyright issues, and so to be safe, no iidx/o2jam/djmax will be acknowledged (therefore, graveyarded)

/random assumptions

Entozer wrote:

Ouendan and Taiko charts probably doesn't mind it nor made a statement about having their charts/maps copied to another game (Random assumptions) Whereas one of those games you mentioned have mentioned about copyright issues, and so to be safe, no iidx/o2jam/djmax will be acknowledged (therefore, graveyarded)

/random assumptions

yet we can make another notechart that is totally different, that's fine.