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This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +28
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posted

deadbeat wrote:

Ami Furi Koneko wrote:

Making monthly charts PP based (if it's planned solution for this) will also require playing every diff to get max PP for each song, which isn't really fun.
monthly charts being scored of pp would be kinda silly imo. also you don't need to play every diff to get max pp >_> just get #1 on the hardest map with 100% for that.
Yeah, but they're probably coming:
t/95988

And the thing is that with pp, you do need to play every diff, or risk being nickle and dimed by someone who did, because you can score pp on multiple diffs in a set (which is good and bad). This can be potentially reduced by using a very aggressive weighting curve to limit the number of maps that a player can count. Or doing the total rank score thing, and using only the highest pp from each set (but only for charts) is another way... but I'm not fond of it.

My big concern with using pp for charts is that it's a statistical method, and for stats to work well, you need lots of data... and there doesn't seem to be very many real competitors on the charts (look at the #1 and the #40 scores on a chart, if things were competitive they should be a lot closer than they are).

But since osu!mania is implemented with normalized scoring, there's probably no better way for it. Especially with the max score fixed even with mods... because the bonus for using mods will essentially only be given in pp.
posted
Lower key mods are now at 0.8x yet the changelog says 0.86. Is this temporary?
posted

Ami Furi Koneko wrote:

will also require playing every diff to get max PP for each song, which isn't really fun.
This shows a lack of understanding in how pp works.. It was made to scale and will work correctly when implemented for charts, too.
posted
Don't worry about pp gains. woc's system will work quite smoothly. Full rainbowing a song is very difficult. The mods will make it easier to get max points or at the very least closer to max points than if you just went through the map and did the same performance without said mod. It's kind of counter intuitive to say it is making it easier by making it harder, but it's really a difficulty tradeoff. You must deal withmod impairments in return for better point returns.

And really that has nothing to do with applying score multipliers for keys. With the way woc is treating multipliers, adding equal multipliers to higher key mods seems less of an option. It doesn't make sense that a non-7K map changed to a 7K map would be worth more points overall than a 7K map. If the ceiling remains 1,000,000, then I don't think weighting the mod at a gain is even feasible.
posted
Don't worry about pp gains. woc's system will work quite smoothly. Full rainbowing a song is very difficult.
Humanly impossibly @@

The mods will make it easier to get max points or at the very least closer to max points than if you just went through the map and did the same performance without said mod.
wtf mods decrease score

It's kind of counter intuitive to say it is making it easier by making it harder, but it's really a difficulty tradeoff. You must deal withmod impairments in return for better point returns.
???
posted
I play normal difficulty maps this period, i hate playing 4K, i like to use 7K mod, but I'm not "pro" to play insane7K maps (the same situation for other players), why should be penalized for using more keys?, is more difficult, unfair and pointless the score reduction :o

woc2006 wrote:

Firstly, I don't agree with using nK mods to get higher scores, so all nK mods are <1 multipliers.
Secondly, I've made different multipilers for 2 cases, play with more keys and play with less keys.
suggest a small increase multiplier for K mods :D

Example Normal map (4K)

4K 1.00
5K 1.01
6K 1.02
7K 1.03
8K 1.04


Example Hard map (5K)

4K 0.86
5K 1.00
6K 1.02
7K 1.03
8K 1.04


Example Hard map (6K)

4K 0.86
5K 0.90

6K 1.00
7K 1.03
8K 1.04


Example Insane map (7K)

4K 0.86
5K 0.90
6K 0.94

7K 1.00
8K 1.04

Example Extra map (8K)

4K 0.86
5K 0.90
6K 0.94
7K 0.98

8K 1.00




Is that possible?...
posted
I would agree that if all higher keys had 1.0x with no benefits once so ever, I would support this. That would indicate that increasing the key count is due to personal preference and it is. Really these keys can't be worth more than existing xK maps and shouldn't be treated special compared to those maps.


woc2006, that is fair right?
posted
I don't see why the decrease is there for lower keys. Just let people compete with the mode they're most comfortable with, why penalize them for playing the mode they enjoy.
posted

Lno wrote:

I don't see why the decrease is there for lower keys. Just let people compete with the mode they're most comfortable with, why penalize them for playing the mode they enjoy.
Realistically, 4k IS easier than 7k.

Perhaps there are 4k players who disagree with that, but as a very experienced 4k player I feel like the score reduction is necessary.

It's A BIT too much to roll it down to 0.80x, however. 0.9x was fine. There are quite a few 7k players who are far more than capable of trashing my 4k scores, even if I did not have any score reduction on my 4k plays. With a reduction of 0.9x, if they're able to get very close to or past that 900,000 mark, I can guarantee that NO 4k player will be nomodding their way past your score. (Entozer FC'd freedom dive four dimensions on 7k, which I've been trying to do since way before mania was ranked)

I was happy with the 0.9x because that means I could've put on HR, and either DT or HD and gotten myself up to 1.00x! (Assuming the difficulty increase mods will work that way) That no longer seems like it'll be possible, though. It really does seem unfair to completely restrict a player's ability to achieve a good rank on a song because of how they may prefer to play.

I'd say, for keymods that decrease count, 0.90x. For keymods that either increase keycount, or decrease count but are one below the map's set keycount (7k down to 6k) 0.95x.

It's already practically impossible to get a high rank with 0.90x on anything easy to hard, and some insanes (that is, if the map has been played by more than ten people!). The only chance that, let's say, myself would have to get high ranks with 4k on any map, would be to play ridiculously hard files (Banned Forever, Freedom Dive FD) since I myself am capable of achieving 99% FC's on these maps - a feat that a lot of the newer 7k players cannot do. I've also been playing 4k for quite a long time.

I don't think people should expect to be beating high level 4k players on hard songs like Chipscape or Ascension to Heaven unless they really know what they're doing, and have been playing 7k for as long as those high level 4k players have been playing 4k. It seems absurd to restrict these skilled 4k players and pull them behind so many scores.

My two cents, and you'll probably all think I'm an idiot! :)
posted

TheVileOne wrote:

I would agree that if all higher keys had 1.0x with no benefits once so ever, I would support this. That would indicate that increasing the key count is due to personal preference and it is. Really these keys can't be worth more than existing xK maps and shouldn't be treated special compared to those maps.


woc2006, that is fair right?
This seems to work, all KeyMods x1.00

But some maps greatly increase the difficulty, for example 5K map with 8K mod is very hard

Bites wrote:

Lno wrote:

I don't see why the decrease is there for lower keys. Just let people compete with the mode they're most comfortable with, why penalize them for playing the mode they enjoy.
Realistically, 4k IS easier than 7k.

Perhaps there are 4k players who disagree with that, but as a very experienced 4k player I feel like the score reduction is necessary.

It's A BIT too much to roll it down to 0.80x, however. 0.9x was fine. There are quite a few 7k players who are far more than capable of trashing my 4k scores, even if I did not have any score reduction on my 4k plays. With a reduction of 0.9x, if they're able to get very close to or past that 900,000 mark, I can guarantee that NO 4k player will be nomodding their way past your score. (Entozer FC'd freedom dive four dimensions on 7k, which I've been trying to do since way before mania was ranked)

I was happy with the 0.9x because that means I could've put on HR, and either DT or HD and gotten myself up to 1.00x! (Assuming the difficulty increase mods will work that way) That no longer seems like it'll be possible, though. It really does seem unfair to completely restrict a player's ability to achieve a good rank on a song because of how they may prefer to play.

I'd say, for keymods that decrease count, 0.90x. For keymods that either increase keycount, or decrease count but are one below the map's set keycount (7k down to 6k) 0.95x.

It's already practically impossible to get a high rank with 0.90x on anything easy to hard, and some insanes (that is, if the map has been played by more than ten people!). The only chance that, let's say, myself would have to get high ranks with 4k on any map, would be to play ridiculously hard files (Banned Forever, Freedom Dive FD) since I myself am capable of achieving 99% FC's on these maps - a feat that a lot of the newer 7k players cannot do. I've also been playing 4k for quite a long time.

I don't think people should expect to be beating high level 4k players on hard songs like Chipscape or Ascension to Heaven unless they really know what they're doing, and have been playing 7k for as long as those high level 4k players have been playing 4k. It seems absurd to restrict these skilled 4k players and pull them behind so many scores.
is absolutely right
posted

TheVileOne wrote:

I would agree that if all higher keys had 1.0x with no benefits once so ever, I would support this. That would indicate that increasing the key count is due to personal preference and it is.
The thing is that there's a rule in balancing games... if you give the player a lot of control over something, you need to assume that they'll use it to make their life easier. Even if it could be used to make things harder, it's known that increasing this can also make things easier (the fact that people talk about wanting to play at their "preference" level is proof of this... there's also the issue of parity, 6K will be easier than 5K to someone who hates odd parity). And so the safe course of action is to assume that even if someone does use the Kmods to increase the number of keys, that the map is now easier for them and should score a bit less than if they played it without being able to select their preference.
posted
I have one question though, because these maps makes me really question how the system decides the keycount to use.

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/37065

Why is this map 6k? It's far harder than many of the maps I've played that default to 7k.

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/47710

Why is the 0108 difficulty 5k?

Is mystery.
posted

bwross wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:

I would agree that if all higher keys had 1.0x with no benefits once so ever, I would support this. That would indicate that increasing the key count is due to personal preference and it is.
The thing is that there's a rule in balancing games... if you give the player a lot of control over something, you need to assume that they'll use it to make their life easier. Even if it could be used to make things harder, it's known that increasing this can also make things easier (the fact that people talk about wanting to play at their "preference" level is proof of this... there's also the issue of parity, 6K will be easier than 5K to someone who hates odd parity). And so the safe course of action is to assume that even if someone does use the Kmods to increase the number of keys, that the map is now easier for them and should score a bit less than if they played it without being able to select their preference.
That shouldn't be an issue, because you're claiming that because it's easier to play on 6 key instead of 5 key for some people, because they prefer to play it that way will create some sort of advantage and it wouldn't. 6K > Harder to max no matter how you look at it and in 99% of mania conversions the set key is easier than all higher key versions.

And the important thing to note is that there is NO benefit to increasing the key count other than personal preference. It would make a lot of players happy if they could play with the keycount they want on the maps they want (as long as its higher) without penalty. If someone who is good at 5K comes along, they can match a player playing with 6K, 7K etc, because they are all worth the same amount of points in the long run. It doesn't matter what key you choose if it's higher. The rankings shouldn't be divided by who's good at this key or that key, it should be who's good at this map or that map. There's no sense dividing the mania player base by key tolerance in the rankings.

Why punish the player because his favorite song doesn't translate into the key count he prefers?

Making a map that suits his key tolerance is not a good answer to this.
posted

TheVileOne wrote:

That shouldn't be an issue, because you're claiming that because it's easier to play on 6 key instead of 5 key for some people, because they prefer to play it that way will create some sort of advantage and it wouldn't. 6K > Harder to max no matter how you look at it and in 99% of mania conversions the set key is easier than all higher key versions.

And the important thing to note is that there is NO benefit to increasing the key count other than personal preference. It would make a lot of players happy if they could play with the keycount they want on the maps they want (as long as its higher) without penalty. If someone who is good at 5K comes along, they can match a player playing with 6K, 7K etc, because they are all worth the same amount of points in the long run. It doesn't matter what key you choose if it's higher. The rankings shouldn't be divided by who's good at this key or that key, it should be who's good at this map or that map. There's no sense dividing the mania player base by key tolerance in the rankings.

Why punish the player because his favorite song doesn't translate into the key count he prefers?

Making a map that suits his key tolerance is not a good answer to this.
And I shall reiterate: lower keycounts than what is defined is still pretty well easier, so I support a small score decrease of 0.90x for lower keycounts and such.

Higher keycounts should perhaps not be penalized, though? :?
posted

Bites wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:

That shouldn't be an issue, because you're claiming that because it's easier to play on 6 key instead of 5 key for some people, because they prefer to play it that way will create some sort of advantage and it wouldn't. 6K > Harder to max no matter how you look at it and in 99% of mania conversions the set key is easier than all higher key versions.

And the important thing to note is that there is NO benefit to increasing the key count other than personal preference. It would make a lot of players happy if they could play with the keycount they want on the maps they want (as long as its higher) without penalty. If someone who is good at 5K comes along, they can match a player playing with 6K, 7K etc, because they are all worth the same amount of points in the long run. It doesn't matter what key you choose if it's higher. The rankings shouldn't be divided by who's good at this key or that key, it should be who's good at this map or that map. There's no sense dividing the mania player base by key tolerance in the rankings.

Why punish the player because his favorite song doesn't translate into the key count he prefers?

Making a map that suits his key tolerance is not a good answer to this.
And I shall reiterate: lower keycounts than what is defined is still pretty well easier, so I support a small score decrease of 0.90x for lower keycounts and such.

Higher keycounts should perhaps not be penalized, though? :?
I agree with this,
I'd prefer lower keycounts to have a smaller score multiplier and for higher keycounts, they should remain 1.0, because it's the user's preference to use a higher keycount.
posted

TheVileOne wrote:

That shouldn't be an issue, because you're claiming that because it's easier to play on 6 key instead of 5 key for some people, because they prefer to play it that way will create some sort of advantage and it wouldn't. 6K > Harder to max no matter how you look at it and in 99% of mania conversions the set key is easier than all higher key versions.
The thing is that it isn't harder no matter how you look at it... in some ways it's easier. Like with AR, increasing things makes things harder, except in the ways that it makes them easier. Also note that what I said means that decreasing from 6K to 5K can make things more awkward and harder for some people. If you think that lower K is easier, and a map is rated lower K than you normally play... just play it at that K. Play the game. It's that simple. If you're not playing the game, just accept that you have to pay a little to get things your way and live with it.

And the important thing to note is that there is NO benefit to increasing the key count other than personal preference.
If it's to be nothing more than a preference, and not part of the game, then things are easy. All K levels should be worth 1.0x... up, down, doesn't matter. Let the pp algorithm decide if your nK play was worth significantly more or less on a mK rated map.
posted

bwross wrote:

If it's to be nothing more than a preference, and not part of the game, then things are easy. All K levels should be worth 1.0x... up, down, doesn't matter. Let the pp algorithm decide if your nK play was worth significantly more or less on a mK rated map.

bwross wrote:

Let the pp algorithm decide if your nK play was worth significantly more or less on a mK rated map.
this doesn't sound like too bad of an idea, actually.. no score reduction, but perhaps playing with the amount of keys the map told you to play with gives more PP? idk >.<
posted

Bites wrote:

Lno wrote:

I don't see why the decrease is there for lower keys. Just let people compete with the mode they're most comfortable with, why penalize them for playing the mode they enjoy.
Realistically, 4k IS easier than 7k.

Perhaps there are 4k players who disagree with that, but as a very experienced 4k player I feel like the score reduction is necessary.

It's A BIT too much to roll it down to 0.80x, however. 0.9x was fine. There are quite a few 7k players who are far more than capable of trashing my 4k scores, even if I did not have any score reduction on my 4k plays. With a reduction of 0.9x, if they're able to get very close to or past that 900,000 mark, I can guarantee that NO 4k player will be nomodding their way past your score. (Entozer FC'd freedom dive four dimensions on 7k, which I've been trying to do since way before mania was ranked)

I was happy with the 0.9x because that means I could've put on HR, and either DT or HD and gotten myself up to 1.00x! (Assuming the difficulty increase mods will work that way) That no longer seems like it'll be possible, though. It really does seem unfair to completely restrict a player's ability to achieve a good rank on a song because of how they may prefer to play.

I'd say, for keymods that decrease count, 0.90x. For keymods that either increase keycount, or decrease count but are one below the map's set keycount (7k down to 6k) 0.95x.

It's already practically impossible to get a high rank with 0.90x on anything easy to hard, and some insanes (that is, if the map has been played by more than ten people!). The only chance that, let's say, myself would have to get high ranks with 4k on any map, would be to play ridiculously hard files (Banned Forever, Freedom Dive FD) since I myself am capable of achieving 99% FC's on these maps - a feat that a lot of the newer 7k players cannot do. I've also been playing 4k for quite a long time.

I don't think people should expect to be beating high level 4k players on hard songs like Chipscape or Ascension to Heaven unless they really know what they're doing, and have been playing 7k for as long as those high level 4k players have been playing 4k. It seems absurd to restrict these skilled 4k players and pull them behind so many scores.

My two cents, and you'll probably all think I'm an idiot! :)
First two lines have the epic win...

It's really pointless if Newbie Beatgamers start to say their opinion and we take them in count... the amateurs and pros, we all know that -K need a Multiplier Reduce and +K a Multiplier Boost...

woc2006 is very stubborn thinking he's doing ALL right, also, peppy supports him instead of helping him to think a bit more on cold...

Stop your ego's a bit, we know that you're doing your best guys, but with nK and 1M Fixed Score you'll get hardcore beatgamers away of mania!...
posted

peppy wrote:

Why not ranking boards for each country for each key number for each unique mod combination for each state in each country for each period since the last lunar eclipse.
Peppy: It seems that you don't even have an idea of what you are talking about if you see the Separate Ranking Boards for Each Key Mode USELESS...

Would you like to have 5 beatmaps submitted for BAT aproval and ranking for each song beatmappers do?

Or you prefer to have 5 Separated Rank Boards for each native key mode?

Think of it, you'll not going to help mappers with this, because of the one's that know at least a lil of beatgames knows that a more keys mode needs to be separated of minus ones coz the Difficulty Gap between them is Really High...

Also take in count that if a mapper make a full beatmap of each keymode it'll be in queue a lot because of max beatmap submission for each user, there's a LOT of problems BIGGER than making a Code change and adding separated MySql or the DB's that you use for Osu! ranks...

It's REALLY A INFINITE BLACK HOLE THERE... Think of it. ;) I'm sure you know that I'm not a freely talking stupid guy, I talking about incoming facts... 8-)
posted
0.75x - n*0.05x (where n is the number of keys decreased) if you decrease the number of keys, 0.8x if you increase it.
For example, on a 7K song:
4K - 0.6x
5K - 0.65x
6K - 0.7x
7K - 1x
8K - 0.8x
That's my opinion on that matter.
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