So mention it as soon as anybody breaks or gets a 100 and make them SS the entire rest :b

and yes ^ the whole point of tourneys is the hype. otherwise this would just be random mp match

Now that Aqo mentions it, you guys could incorporate more color commentary (see what I did there?) about the players, teams, maps etc. (Give us a more detailed overview of the map, analyze player strengths, weaknesses etc.) between maps and during lulls in play-by-play. Just some friendly critique.

Mara wrote:

I never understand how people can get so much drama out of these things. It looks like everyone is going to kill each other.

I know, right?

It's a nice contrast going on here. Offending the commentators and streamers instead of criticizing the maps or rules. You know guys we can be happy that someone even signed up who can provide this quality of streaming. From my experiences the commentators doing their job right. About the streaming.. ye it lags (fps drop inside the stream) for me, but seeing the 1000-2000 live watchers, I just don't care~.

*higurush goes back to his observation post*

higurush wrote:

Offending the-

this is the core of the problem. that people think of criticism as offense instead of as advice

I appreciate the criticism I have gotten so far. However, some of it only has the purpose of offending others because things don't go they way they would like it to. Once the 15 minute rule was made people starting complaining about it even after we gave our reasons and they continued to say the same thing. This also led to people complaining about other things (streaming, commentating).

Aqo wrote:

higurush wrote:

Offending the-

this is the core of the problem. that people think of criticism as offense instead of as advice

Ye because if a large crowd does the same, it can more or less been taken as an offense~

Makar wrote:

I appreciate the criticism I have gotten so far. However, some of it only has the purpose of offending others because things don't go they way they would like it to.

be mature enough to ignore any words that a random unknown person posted on the internet that might have been intended to offend you and instead look at them objectively as a source of information to learn from to perform better in the future

(again this is not a direct reply to you makar, more like a general reply to all people who take criticism as offense)

That's exactly what I have been trying to do, though conversations just go in circles here
Also, even if one of the staff seems to "rage" on this thread due to something offensive, we actually take everything into consideration anyways.
I'm pretty sure the commentators will improve thanks to these comments and I know when maps were picked people complained but you guys are getting better and considering them anyway.

It just annoys me to hear unfounded criticism over stuff we actually do correctly. It's like people are purposely trying as hard as they can to bitch about something.

Aqo wrote:

If I was sitting there as commentator and seeing full-FC-so-far, I'd look at accuracies and throw out stuff like "look at this player, he is really solid with acc on this bpm, he will keep it high all match long. this other player isn't good with 1/4 sliders, notice those slider100s. this player always claims he's not good with AR10, but so far he's SSing this HR map, what interesting standards". etc. dunno. talk about the players. talk about the meta aspect of the whole thing - the team rivalry, the predictions for the match, what happens to each team if they win or lose bracket-wise, and so on. there's always something to talk about.

This is kind of an interesting point. I mean, you don't need to know every player's BPM range, favorite mappers, three sizes, relationship status, etc, as you're hardly being paid for this and I'm sure you have better things to do than sift through every player's thousands of scores. But one possible suggestion could be to take a look at the "Top Performances" of a couple of the higher-profile players (ranked top 500 pp). You can get some interesting information out of players this way without too much research. Are they getting HD+DT SS scores, or are they playing HD+HR on difficult maps (or maybe even FL)? Do the maps tend to be high BPM streams, crazy patterns, low BPM, irregular timing, etc? You may be able to pin down a player's general strengths and playstyles like that, and the commentary will that much more colorful. It could at least provide interesting background during slower moments in songs or in between map picks.

Just something to consider. I have heard some commentary regarding players (good at low BPM, good with HR), and it's been really interesting.

@Color: Wouldn't be OWC without the drama; some people just like to cause disturbances for the sake of disturbing.

Regardless of how people view it, staff takes into consideration everything being said. People are acting like the staff is completely disregarding all input given and that they couldn't give a hoot about the players. Truth be told, they listen, however the main goal here is to settle things so that it works better for everyone as effectively and efficiently as possible, even if that includes rejection on the players' end sometimes (this obviously means it works in favour of players too of course, it's not a one-way street like some people think and believe). It is inclined to become progressively better in the future. Just stop looking at it like it's a battle against staff and players or no good's going to come of it...it's just senseless.

Mr Color wrote:

It just annoys me to hear unfounded criticism over stuff we actually do correctly. It's like people are purposely trying as hard as they can to bitch about something.

That's the reason why staff has had to regurgitate the same message over and over already. Despite people reiterating their issues several times even after having the reasons explained to them, we are all taking "criticism" into consideration. Most people (including staff) need to step back and think from all perspectives before sputtering though.

We need some asian commentators to scream like krzy (dat pun) when someone misses.

Pls asian commentators, where are you

Kanye West wrote:

Now that Aqo mentions it, you guys could incorporate more color commentary (see what I did there?) about the players, teams, maps etc. (Give us a more detailed overview of the map, analyze player strengths, weaknesses etc.) between maps and during lulls in play-by-play. Just some friendly critique.

We are actually doing as best as we can on this and are trying to improve, but thanks for the criticism.

-

Also keep in mind that osu! players are most often known by their strengths and as they are only shown in their rankings, we can't say much about other aspects where they might do suprisingly well/bad. To name an example: Shadowsoul did remarkably well on the harder insanes, despite the fact that some people think all he can do is [hard] difficulties.

Lastly, this isn't soccer or baseball or even sc2. Most good players aren't even known outside their own country/circle of friends. This tournament has made me realize there is simply no way for us to keep track of the amount of players that don't consistently submit good scores or in some way are visible in the community.

The commentators are fine, i watch matches and too much hype or talk would distract me of what i really want to see, the comments are great since they talk enough, more than that would just distract me from watching the match and shitting my patns putting myself on the guys who are playing .. it's a game where u have to be fully concentrated for not to miss and too much hype or a guy who says everything that's happening in the game would piss everyone off, you can't compare osu to a fighting game.



Also about the 15 minutes rules i think it's way too much, i as a player lose a lot of concentration with that many time, i do feel like 5 or 7 minutes is enough but well, already enough talk about that i guess.

I tried to keep the time-before-match section as short as possible. Setting 15 minutes is the result of examining the last two round where I hosted many of the hold matches.
These 15 minutes are a pure result of examination of how the majority of matches went and we decided that this amount is low but also high enough to ensure everything (not only the stream, but also giving the teams the chance to shortly discuss their setup and gathering their team) runs smooth without disturbing the schedule and make the tournament run as planned.
You have to keep in mind that such scaled tournaments, spread over such a long time, need a lot of organization, it eats hell of time.
I can understand if you feel like being in the disadvantage because you get 15 min cut off, but also keep in mind that delays of 20+ mins can happen due to hectic situations, since the "match was already supposed to be started".
I highly prefer taking 15 mins of your time than stressing you, me and all the others with circumstances that are resulting out of the lack of time.
It might appear as a disadvantage to you for the first, but on the second, this is only for helping mostly you to have a flowing tournament, that don't make you fail because of hectic, stressed and chaotic situations.

If you are able to collect your teams very quick, you're absolutely free to warm up till time is used up or to calm down and mentally prepare for the ongoing match.
If you collect and warm up or warm up and collect makes no difference, yet the first options is more profitable for the whole OWC.

I hope this makes stuff more clear now. If the critics are unfounded and just consist of blaming/accusations about stuff that isn't the case, you get replies as before.
But if you actually stay calm and polite and remove your subtextual "you all suck and fail at everything and never think of us", you get appropriate answers.
Please always keep in mind that you are free to suggest something. But pulling off the "drama card" will make me discard any of your words.

Makar wrote:

Once the 15 minute rule was made people starting complaining about it even after we gave our reasons and they continued to say the same thing. This also led to people complaining about other things (streaming, commentating).

I'd like to point out that this is wrong; it's the other way around. Several people, including me, have pointed out how the rule is more harmful than beneficial, yet all we got as a response was "you know where the door is" and "we need time to prepare streams." I've argued how this should not be of higher priority to players, but all Makar keeps saying is that he's given his reasons, he is right, and I am not listening.

I said I'd drop the matter, but his attitude is ridiculous.

Loctav wrote:

I hope this makes stuff more clear now. If the critics ate unfounded and just consist of blaming/accusations about stuff that isn't the case, you get replies as before.
But if you actually stay calm and polite and remove your subtextual "you all suck and fail at everything and never think of us", you get appropriate answers.
Please always keep in mind that you are free to suggest something. But pulling off the "drama card" will make is totallyhomo discard any of your words/

I agree with everything except this part. Staff should give appropriate answers/consideration/whatever no matter how rude others are imo. However, that does not give others the right to go off like that either. Bad attitude should be treated a different way (such as silencing if it continues).

KRZY wrote:

Makar wrote:

Once the 15 minute rule was made people starting complaining about it even after we gave our reasons and they continued to say the same thing. This also led to people complaining about other things (streaming, commentating).

I'd like to point out that this is wrong; it's the other way around. Several people, including me, have pointed out how the rule is more harmful than beneficial, yet all we got as a response was "you know where the door is" and "we need time to prepare streams." I've argued how this should not be of higher priority to players, but all Makar keeps saying is that he's given his reasons, he is right, and I am not listening.

I said I'd drop the matter, but his attitude is ridiculous.

Think of it this way then: If we are not able to have anything finished by the time you are supposed to play, you won't be able to play because nothing will be setup yet and things will be late. We don't do this so we can be lazy, we do this so you are able to play your match in the time that you had asked for. I've never once asked you to quit the tournament.

Also, now that Loctav has actually made a post explaining the basis of the new rule, I'd like to voice another concern, which has already been voiced before: "hands going cold." Given that all 8 players have arrived in the room 15 minutes prior to the match, it would be quite bad for the players to just sit there for 15 minutes exchanging friendly words and doing nothing much else. Loctav has said that we will be free to play warm-up matches; I would like to confirm how this can go about. Are we just allowed to pick any maps and play before we actually begin the match on matchtime as 8? Will picking maps that are in the map pool for warmup purposes be allowed? If so, will this not interfere with the MP history later on? I've been told by Loctav after last match that, when we were trying to play the tiebreaker map for fun, we should do it in another room because it will make the MP history look confusing. Is this still the concern?

KRZY wrote:

Will picking maps that are in the map pool for warmup purposes be allowed? If so, will this not interfere with the MP history later on? I've been told by Loctav after last match that, when we were trying to play the tiebreaker map for fun, we should do it in another room because it will make the MP history look confusing. Is this still the concern?

iirc peppy said that wasn't allowed, but I honestly don't see why you shouldn't be able to especially if its not streamed (maybe because you can see a possible outcome and if you should pick the map in the real tourny or not?)
MP history is always confusing, so I doubt that matters.

Also, I still think the time should be lowered to 5-10 minutes :/ I think it only takes 15 minutes because captains fail to cooperate quickly, but if they know they have to be on earlier things should go more smoothly

too much text in this thread

less blahblah, more JB/vikings/baguettes/datBrazilianSingerNobodyKnows/PortugalSucks/etc.

XPJ38 wrote:

too much text in this thread

less blahblah, more JB/vikings/baguettes/datBrazilianSingerNobodyKnows/PortugalSucks/etc.

I agree. Meaningful discussion on the topic of the 15 minute rule has become that of 2 or 3 people anyways, would probably keep this thread cleaner if the rest of it is done elsewhere (just give us the discussion results later).

Makar wrote:

Think of it this way then: If we are not able to have anything finished by the time you are supposed to play, you won't be able to play because nothing will be setup yet and things will be late. We don't do this so we can be lazy, we do this so you are able to play your match in the time that you had asked for. I've never once asked you to quit the tournament.

We all know who I am referring to with the door comment.

But thanks for your response. I've suggested a time period of five minutes instead of fifteen, but after reading Loctav's latest post I'm ready to accept 15 minutes for the better running of the tournament.

@Makar well, actually you are right, but we are all humans. If you simply complain for the sake of complaining (and 90% of the thread consists of this since everyone feels harmed in their valuable freedom), you will face me as a human who simply get annoyed of it. If you can't deal with changes of any kind, you are not supposed to participate here.
People need to understand that the changes are not made out of fun because I feel like putting players behind streamers or just to troll them.
The discussion reached a point where it was hitting stubbornness of a kind that of whatever reason I would bring, it would be like "YOU ARE WRONG BECAUSE <input previously 100 times repeated and already dodged reason> "
Repeating a reason doesn't make it more valid. Also it's not that I don't UNDERSTAND what people try to tell me. But people always act like decisions ate made randomly. You can never please everyone, Korean team might be EXCEPTIONAL when it comes to gathering themselves (they are actually by far the best organized team), I have to consider all others (the actual MAJORITY of participants), and these people NEED this time, as I observed in 32 matches so far.
But putting "yourself" as "the standard of everyone" makes me just annoyed. Sorry for this, but this makes me simply tell them, that they are NOT like everyone and that they shall not put themselves as centre of the universe.

And the main suggestion for stuff you can not accept : leave this tournament.
If you can not live and feel like irrationally suffer from such rule changes, you should not participate.
And I just made clear, very harshly due to my annoyed state at this point, that no one forces you to be here and that I simply don't listen to people who are not constructive nor neutral and objective.

just when I thought it was over

here we go again

You see, all this could have been avoided if the conversation went like this:

KRZY wrote:

Finally, please clarify what "being ready to play" means. If it means the teams must join the multiplayer match via the management's invites 15 minutes prior to the match, then I strongly disagree with this and would like to hear the reasoning behind it.

Loctav wrote:

I tried to keep the time-before-match section as short as possible. Setting 15 minutes is the result of examining the last two round where I hosted many of the hold matches.
These 15 minutes are a pure result of examination of how the majority of matches went and we decided that this amount is low but also high enough to ensure everything (not only the stream, but also giving the teams the chance to shortly discuss their setup and gathering their team) runs smooth without disturbing the schedule and make the tournament run as planned.
You have to keep in mind that such scaled tournaments, spread over such a long time, need a lot of organization, it eats hell of time.
I can understand if you feel like being in the disadvantage because you get 15 min cut off, but also keep in mind that delays of 20+ mins can happen due to hectic situations, since the "match was already supposed to be started".
I highly prefer taking 15 mins of your time than stressing you, me and all the others with circumstances that are resulting out of the lack of time.
It might appear as a disadvantage to you for the first, but on the second, this is only for helping mostly you to have a flowing tournament, that don't make you fail because of hectic, stressed and chaotic situations.

If you are able to collect your teams very quick, you're absolutely free to warm up till time is used up or to calm down and mentally prepare for the ongoing match.
If you collect and warm up or warm up and collect makes no difference, yet the first options is more profitable for the whole OWC.

Typing on iPhone is slow.
Regarding warmups: I suggest to not use pool maps for various reasons:
1.) tactical purpose: opponent can see how you do on the map and may use this against you
2.) redundancy effect: maps being played more than once in a row may make your performance drop on the actual counting match
3.) mp history confusion: playing mappool maps makes it hard to differ what maps are actual matches and what are warmups, since editing stats are hard enough, it's hindering even more.

Edit: you are still free to use whatever you want to warmup. I also prefer to pick warmup winner as first-selector. But if you disagree with this method, flipping a coin is working then, too.
Picking non-pool map is not the must but HIGHLY recommended.

Not playing anymore after done match is a method to also enlighten the weight of the edit- and workload heavy stats sheet editing process.
We can differ warmups from actual match (especially if not-pool-maps), but keep playing afterwards is simply confusing for us. And since it doesn't harm you to recreate another match to help our organization, it's the most appropriate way to keep stuff on a lower workload for us. And since it doesnt really affect you seriously, I think you should follow this.

@Krzy you are right, but you know how this goes. I can't help it anymore, but being flooded with unreasoned comments and complaints daily makes me to react weird on some of them, especially when it appears as "oh a change, let's go and complain" to me on first glance. You were victim of the dodging I do heavily daily. Maybe next time try to contact me directly instead of putting questions into a protesting frame. This could help me not misunderstanding and falsy reacting in this stuff then.

I see. I apologize on my part for making my posts more offensive than they needed to be, I too was kind of frustrated at not receiving what I considered to be a clear, direct answer to my concerns. I hope we set a tone here for solving any more opinion differences that may occur between different parties for the remainder of the tournament.

#bromance
d'awww

You guys were seriously having an argument over hands going cold.

hands. going. cold.

That's all I'll say.

Good organising, I still see no map pack.

Mr Color wrote:

You guys were seriously having an argument over hands going cold.

hands. going. cold.

That's all I'll say.

I don't see a problem with this.
Unless you're telling me that your skill level is the same no matter if you warm up or not.

buny wrote:

Good organising, I still see no map pack.

Just download each map and stop complaining about stupid shit.

Metro wrote:

buny wrote:

Good organising, I still see no map pack.

Just download each map and stop complaining about stupid shit.

Just upload the pack and I won't complain about "stupid shit"
Pretty hypocritical when you're complaining about others complaining.

buny wrote:

Metro wrote:

Just download each map and stop complaining about stupid shit.

Just upload the pack and I won't complain about "stupid shit"
Pretty hypocritical when you're complaining about others complaining.

I'm not complaining. Read a few of the last pages and you'll see that people are always complaining about something. The pack isn't important enough for you to come and flame the staff. Just downlod each map.

Regardless of how important it is, it shouldn't go ignored.

Just a quick fix for a small issue is all I'm asking for. No need to be angry.

buny wrote:

Regardless of how important it is, it shouldn't go ignored.

Just a quick fix for a small issue is all I'm asking for. No need to be angry.

No one's angry. Just don't flame the staff please. Thanks.

http://www.mediafire.com/?c402b5zp281u5ak
Thanks to Lolicore Flandre for uploading

Thank you.