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Taiko General Discussion thread

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DestinySonata
460 posts
Joined September 2011
DestinySonata
Hi, I don't know if this is the right place to ask this question (whether to ask it here or create a new topic), but I was wondering about Inner Oni.

From what I know, Inner Oni is something that's a harder Oni. When it comes to sets, when you see an Inner Oni, is it a must there should be an Oni as well?
Yuzeyun
7,622 posts
Joined September 2010
Topic Starter
Yuzeyun
Inner Oni is something that pushes the limits of a song when mapping it.
And if by set you mean something like this, yes you'll need a full spread with at least one futsuu (kantans aren't necessary but highly encouraged). By full spread it's at least [Futsuu] - [Muzukashii] - [Oni], plus [Kantan].
If you don't think you need an oni, then you're doing something wrong.
DestinySonata
460 posts
Joined September 2011
DestinySonata
Ah, okay. How about when it comes to GD? Can there just be an Inner Oni?
Dolphin
1,167 posts
Joined January 2012
Dolphin
only if it's for marathon rank. otherwise, if there's an inner oni you'd need to map muzu, oni and inner.
DestinySonata
460 posts
Joined September 2011
DestinySonata
Okay, thank you very much for the answer :)
I always had the thought that Oni was always needed, so that cleared up that misunderstanding.
Dolphin
1,167 posts
Joined January 2012
Dolphin
you can make futsuu+muzu instead (or kantan+futsuu+muzu for sets)

pretty sure futsuu+oni is rankable too for GDs (i did it so why can't others) but that's not recommended.
Yuzeyun
7,622 posts
Joined September 2010
Topic Starter
Yuzeyun

Dolphin wrote:

pretty sure futsuu+oni is rankable too for GDs (i did it so why can't others).
lolmetoo
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
Technically, Inner/Ura Oni is just a second Oni for the set. It does not need to be harder, and it always requires a regular Oni. That's the way it is used in the original TnT games at least. Of course osu!taiko mappers completely ignored this concept, so now it's just a name for harder diffs :lol:
Nwolf
2,604 posts
Joined September 2012
Nwolf
I still try to make people realize that Inner Onis do not have to be hard or overmapped calm songs for the sake of having a hard map :>
karterfreak
osu! Alumni
724 posts
Joined August 2011
karterfreak

Luna wrote:

Technically, Inner/Ura Oni is just a second Oni for the set. It does not need to be harder, and it always requires a regular Oni. That's the way it is used in the original TnT games at least. Of course osu!taiko mappers completely ignored this concept, so now it's just a name for harder diffs :lol:
Its not so much that we ignored the concept, that we instead borrowed the names and made it into our own concept. It just made more sense from a naming standpoint for a difficulty above Oni to be Inner Oni.
OzzyOzrock
5,185 posts
Joined August 2010
OzzyOzrock

Tasha wrote:

Luna wrote:

Technically, Inner/Ura Oni is just a second Oni for the set. It does not need to be harder, and it always requires a regular Oni. That's the way it is used in the original TnT games at least. Of course osu!taiko mappers completely ignored this concept, so now it's just a name for harder diffs :lol:
Its not so much that we ignored the concept, that we instead borrowed the names and made it into our own concept. It just made more sense from a naming standpoint for a difficulty above Oni to be Inner Oni.
this took me so long to accept during my 'authentic nazi' phase LOL
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,812 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito

OzzyOzrock wrote:

Tasha wrote:

Its not so much that we ignored the concept, that we instead borrowed the names and made it into our own concept. It just made more sense from a naming standpoint for a difficulty above Oni to be Inner Oni.
this took me so long to accept during my 'authentic nazi' phase LOL
Even if I pretend that I accepted it, I actually don't. Haha
DestinySonata
460 posts
Joined September 2011
DestinySonata
It's so hard to accept ;w;
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz
Get over it or go play arcade.

That sounds harsh.
DestinySonata
460 posts
Joined September 2011
DestinySonata

MMzz wrote:

Get over it or go play arcade.

That sounds harsh.
I'll just somewhat accept it then, nothing I can do about it
Dolphin
1,167 posts
Joined January 2012
Dolphin

MMzz wrote:

Get over it or go play arcade.

That sounds harsh.
This

I mean if we were such butthurt authentic nazis then why are we letting people map the way they do on standard mode with all the triplets and streams.
What happened is that they evolved from the old authentic style to something new, and the same happened here. :roll:
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,812 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
The questions is to what it evolves. At the moment we do pretty much the same mistake as Namco(and osu) does:
Making maps harder as they usually should be. While Namco messes up everything with SV changes, some of us just go for high BPM stuff or make lower diffs unreaonsable harder.

If that's some people's understanding of evolving, I can just say: No thank you.

And even if I'm fine with the fact that many people treat Inner as "harder Oni", I would still say they should see it as Oni = Inner Oni = Ura Oni, since many mapper misunderstand the meaning of Inner after all. It's an hidden Oni which should be used if a song can carry it. Not whenever the chance is there for it and spam Inner/Ura on everything.

Yet, people complain about boring and bad made maps. I "wonder" why.
I think it is worth to think about why lepidopodu's maps are that much accepted here. And it's for sure not the difficulty itself which is crucial.
Nwolf
2,604 posts
Joined September 2012
Nwolf
lepidopodu's maps seem "classic" to most taiko players and here and that feeling often results in rating the map better than it actually is. While I do like many lepi maps myself, he also did the same mistakes people do nowadays and I think it's just natural and "good" as long as we point it out early enough.

Many maps that try to go for rank are also stopped for being unnecessarily hard or having an Inner it shouldn't have - maps aren't just instantly ranked for a reason. BATs have to control that this evolution you speak of doesn't go in the wrong direction: Making these hard maps that shouldn't be mapped that way. It's the reason why I dislike Overjoy maps, it's the reason why I dislike nonsense and inconsistent overmap.

We should not generalize - Else new mappers that map perfectly fine or... in general, any taiko mapper that maps good might be put in the same group as the people that overmap for no sense, except for the sake of having something hard. If we want to keep quality at a good standard, it also needs more than QATs, it needs people that instead of supporting nonsense maps, support legit hard maps or just good maps, no matter how good they are.

Which is another problem we should focus first: Make easier maps enjoyable again for the players that "doom" taiko by wanting more and more hard/Overjoy maps.


I also don't know if this posts makes any sense :3
Dolphin
1,167 posts
Joined January 2012
Dolphin
SPOILER

i hope you realize that a (ranked) hidden oni isn't possible/viable on osu so what other appropriate name should we give a difficulty harder than oni itself whilst still sticking to the naming scheme of taiko no tatsujin?
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,812 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
Remember: lepidopodus mapped some Taiko maps 4 / 5 years ago. Of course from time to time some mistakes occur.
But the more sad it becomes when nowadays people make exactly those mistakes. lol
I said some time ago that in my opinion, we should be already over this whole "overmapping" thing, since the old guys did such mistakes sometimes as well. Yet, people continue with that, even though it has been several times prooven (in discussions / modding / raitings / etc.) that this isn't really favorited as long as it isn't mapped in a good / reasonable way.

In general I agree with your post Nwolf. But first of all, people have to gain experience and support their own easy mapping before they do it in general. That's one of the main problems here, if you ask me. I saw already more than enough times how people rage about blatant hard maps, yet they do the same mistake as well. But let's see how things will go on now. I'm pretty sure new BATs will learn a lot in the upcoming months. But till then, QATs will unrank stuff inexorably.

@Dolphin: As I said, I'm fine with current naming. That's what we used in the last 6 years (and what is widley known in all Taiko communities), so there is no need to change that. What I'm only talking about is the understanding of these difficulties. Like, as what you see them. For example: A possible second Oni which follows vocal mapping instead of beat mapping or just a diff. for blatant overuse?
Dolphin
1,167 posts
Joined January 2012
Dolphin
People who make blatantly hard maps are not the same people who think blatant hard maps are bad.
You make it seem like it's the same group of people when it's (usually) not.
Some lesser skilled player might think something is stupidly overmapped, but that's because of their own lack of experienced compared to either more skilled players or mappers.
Just because old maps make certain "mistakes", and us calling them "mistakes", wouldn't save newer mappers from doing the exact same if they haven't been taught about these "mistakes".
In the end, your post just looked like a big giant generalization about how a single person complains about "mistakes" and "blatant hard maps" and then making these same "mistakes" and making these "blatant hard maps".

I assume that you probably didn't mean it that way, but this is what it comes off as right now.

also nice edit on my post adding that pointless spoilerbox haha
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,812 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
Yeah, that's atcually not what I ment. Aaaah. Well, I think I will just leave it for now in this way.
Tbh, I don't want to spam you guys with wall of text. I guess I'm just bad at explaning things in a short way. lol
Dainesl
898 posts
Joined May 2012
Dainesl
I've made some blatantly overmapped maps before (like, extreme overmap for the sake of it) and I've actually formed my own opinion about overmapping based on these and other overmapped maps, and I'm kind of like Nwolf, as long as the overmap is CONSISTENT then it's a bit more viable to have, but when overmap is used as a gimmick then it's really hard to get right

on another note compound patterns are really hard to get down and require a good mapper in order to make them both flow well and feel rewarding to play, instead of flowing awkwardly and playing really awkwardly and you FCing the pattern felt like luck
karterfreak
osu! Alumni
724 posts
Joined August 2011
karterfreak


Soon...soon.
Nyan
1,455 posts
Joined September 2008
Nyan
More Tatsh, more silver crowns.
DarkStoorM
451 posts
Joined October 2009
DarkStoorM
So... didn't expect to do this after a month break D:
karterfreak
osu! Alumni
724 posts
Joined August 2011
karterfreak
So after doing this, I think I can finally say I retire (Not really, but holy shit finally) :lol:

MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz
I always choke at the end after the 1/6 dddk stream. Usually get so nervous and mess up on the constant timing changes. ;_;
teach me Tasha senpai.
cheezstik
1,005 posts
Joined October 2013
cheezstik
Is it just me or is taiko much easier than standard? I remember taking at least a month to get to 1k pp on standard, and maybe 2-3k playcount, yet I've achieved the same thing on taiko in 3 days and 200 playcount.
roufou
966 posts
Joined September 2011
roufou

cheezstik wrote:

Is it just me or is taiko much easier than standard? I remember taking at least a month to get to 1k pp on standard, and maybe 2-3k playcount, yet I've achieved the same thing on taiko in 3 days and 200 playcount.
you can't really call a gamemode easy just cause you got the same amount of pp on it easier, because the pp system isn't made to have the modes give equal pp depending on skill, anyways to answer your question it really depends, I think taiko is really easy overall and I was somewhat of a natural at it compared to most people wherein I could read easily slower patterns and hit them usually without confusing the buttons
Dolphin
1,167 posts
Joined January 2012
Dolphin
less active players = less competition
taiko =/= standard pp
cheezstik
1,005 posts
Joined October 2013
cheezstik

agu wrote:

cheezstik wrote:

Is it just me or is taiko much easier than standard? I remember taking at least a month to get to 1k pp on standard, and maybe 2-3k playcount, yet I've achieved the same thing on taiko in 3 days and 200 playcount.
you can't really call a gamemode easy just cause you got the same amount of pp on it easier, because the pp system isn't made to have the modes give equal pp depending on skill, anyways to answer your question it really depends, I think taiko is really easy overall and I was somewhat of a natural at it compared to most people wherein I could read easily slower patterns and hit them usually without confusing the buttons
I wasn't calling taiko easy, I don't think any mode is easy, I was just saying it seemed much easier to gain pp. Yeah most of my trpuble in taiko right now is reading, I can play ar10 in standard yet most taiko songs on hard-insane are way too fast, the notes literally look like blurs.

Dolphin wrote:

less active players = less competition
taiko =/= standard pp
Yes, I know this, which is why I mentioned pp and not rank. But yeah, I now realise pp gains are much higher in taiko, at this level at least. I will be enjoying the mode none the less.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
pp scaling is still kinda messed up in taiko, that's all. Same for the other special modes - osu! is the only properly balanced one so far. Just ignore pp for the most part and focus on individual score progression.
TKS
Former osu!taiko Champion: 2014
1,380 posts
Joined July 2011
TKS
maybe you know that PP doesnt mean a truely player skill in many cases. PP is nothing more than just a point.
Bara-
11,955 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
Why does high accuracy no FC gives so much more pp than a FC?
I'm starting to try to get higher scores/acc on older plays, and I gained 100+ pp (400 ranks) while only going from 93% Fc to 96% orso
Too bad it's hard to get more pp now ;-;
someone send me maps for 180-200 pp
XK2238
2,066 posts
Joined October 2011
XK2238

TKS wrote:

PP is nothing more than just a mere integer.
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz
Yeah, pp only caters to speed. And not just DT speed.
PP is weighted by the ratio of how many notes there are during the song. So a short song with a lot of notes = pp map. Add DT it becomes a crazy pp map because the time is less and there are the same amount of notes. Of course acc is weighted as well. But from what I've seen a 97 and 99% will be similar pp.

So pp isn't a very good indicator of skill because it doesn't pinpoint actual hard maps as hard. It doesn't look at patterns or anything. Just that ratio.
Sinzee
9 posts
Joined March 2009
Sinzee
I've searched and I tried, and I can't figure out... where do I put my damn eyes when playing taiko? I alternate between the circle and a little to the right of it and sometimes my eyes just get all messed up and I lose all control.
Dolphin
1,167 posts
Joined January 2012
Dolphin
the more you play the more you grow comfortable, eventually you'll find that sweet spot automatically.
i personally actually have my eyes around the middle, maybe a bit towards the judge circle, unless when i'm playing Hidden, then I obviously put my eyes to where the notes appear.

The reason I do this is so that I don't have to look at huge cluster of notes at the same time.
Sinzee
9 posts
Joined March 2009
Sinzee

Dolphin wrote:

the more you play the more you grow comfortable, eventually you'll find that sweet spot automatically.
i personally actually have my eyes around the middle, maybe a bit towards the judge circle, unless when i'm playing Hidden, then I obviously put my eyes to where the notes appear.

The reason I do this is so that I don't have to look at huge cluster of notes at the same time.
Apparently I follow the circles now can I keep this up or should I unteach myself to do this before it's too late, because it feels messy, YET I just magically follow them, I don't know if this is normal but I don't wanna learn myself something that will be a pain to get rid of. Sorry if i can't make sense, my mental state is messed up atm
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