Apollo's rework seems very popular on Reddit, YouTube, Discord osu! servers, etc.

It's getting a lot of support it seems.

What do you guys think of it?

methinks combo removal is good. it will be a good change in a game that needed this change for a long time.

i rmb during the last rework u lost pp and was so mad and flamed it so hard

but now u gain pp from this rework and trying so hard to suck apollos d
I think if somehow u lost pp during this rework u would probably call it the shittiest rework ever or something

but imo its ok ig

Plays that miss at the very end are getting hit hard while ones that miss closer to the middle of the song get buffed, at least that's how it looks for me. I would say it nerfs plays with misses more than it buffs. Top plays that miss at the very end are more common, and those are gonna get fucked. People are overestimating how much some other plays are getting buffed, and the ones that do seem to get buffed a lot likely have nice acc that goes along with it. It's just moving from a combo game to a consistency and accuracy game, isn't this was what people wanted?

I've sometimes seen self conscious people in multi rooms say "combo game" or "I had better accuracy" etc when they mess up and lose to someone much lower rank with lower accuracy but got a lucky combo, and yeah I agree they're clearly the better player and their play is definitely better, just shut up and let the other person have their moment. But I've never seen someone complain of the opposite. So it seems to me most people agree acc and consistency is a better measure of overall skill.
I guess one downside is multi might turn more boring since there won't be those unpredictable moments anymore where an underdog randomly comes out on top with a cool and lucky combo.

inb4 thread locked

There was already a thread like this so I'll just copy and paste what I said. Not trying to argue or anything, just my thoughts.

"I personally don't like it even though I gain a little PP, but what can you do." Although I now lose PP my thoughts are still the same.

Idk
who cares tbh

Rework is fine, current version still looks scuffed but I assume it can be polished by the time it comes out. Though I have a bit of bias against systems that make it so that the better player always wins.

I like it since a lot of my top plays have slider breaks...

it is good

mfs only agree with reworks because they will get more pp, I swear anybody that loses pp just hates pp rework

I like the idea of pp being based less off of combo and more on acc. The main change i'd say needs to be done with it is punish misses harder than its punished now. I feel that would make it more balanced.

Thing is theres not gonna be a perfect system, and theres gonna be hate and praise for each rework, so id say this change would be a new and cool system to try out, just like the current rework thats been implemented

-Polyrem- wrote:

mfs only agree with reworks because they will get more pp, I swear anybody that loses pp just hates pp rework

i lose pp though. its still a good rework

Arm wrote:

I like the idea of pp being based less off of combo and more on acc. The main change i'd say needs to be done with it is punish misses harder than its punished now. I feel that would make it more balanced.

Thing is theres not gonna be a perfect system, and theres gonna be hate and praise for each rework, so id say this change would be a new and cool system to try out, just like the current rework thats been implemented

its actually going to depend on misses and not acc. The acc system will stay the same.

Yone wrote:

i rmb during the last rework u lost pp and was so mad and flamed it so hard

but now u gain pp from this rework and trying so hard to suck apollos d
I think if somehow u lost pp during this rework u would probably call it the shittiest rework ever or something

but imo its ok ig

Last rework nerfed jumps a bit too much. I'm sure most can see that. Jumps had already been heavily nerfed this year, so another heavy nerf was not really necessary. They should have a slight buff imo. Less than prior, but more than current.

And at that time I thought I was quitting too so it was not really about my PP xd

-Polyrem- wrote:

mfs only agree with reworks because they will get more pp, I swear anybody that loses pp just hates pp rework

I mean not really. I agree with the premise of the rework. I've always wondered why combo was most important in PP. It should be misscount and acc. A B rank FC is not better than a mid-map 1 miss with 99% acc, which is how it is in the current PP system.

Arm wrote:

I like the idea of pp being based less off of combo and more on acc. The main change i'd say needs to be done with it is punish misses harder than its punished now. I feel that would make it more balanced.

Thing is theres not gonna be a perfect system, and theres gonna be hate and praise for each rework, so id say this change would be a new and cool system to try out, just like the current rework thats been implemented

I don't really know the finetuning, some plays actually get misses punished fairly or pretty heavily, but others there seems to be really little punishment. I don't know what the right measure is.

kujubuo wrote:

-Polyrem- wrote:

mfs only agree with reworks because they will get more pp, I swear anybody that loses pp just hates pp rework

i lose pp though. its still a good rework

Arm wrote:

I like the idea of pp being based less off of combo and more on acc. The main change i'd say needs to be done with it is punish misses harder than its punished now. I feel that would make it more balanced.

Thing is theres not gonna be a perfect system, and theres gonna be hate and praise for each rework, so id say this change would be a new and cool system to try out, just like the current rework thats been implemented

its actually going to depend on misses and not acc. The acc system will stay the same.

Yeah but it makes acc a really important factor since plays with misses but high acc can be rewarded now. Whereas before acc only mattered if you held combo.

"The last rework nerfed jumps a bit too much" is an other word for "My pp goes down bad rework" I see. Since the last rework doesn't nerf jumps THAT much. (The rework buffed wide angle jumps anyway

Anyway, this rework is okay. Or should I say, bad because my acc will go down

I can see why people want this rework, but I'm personally not a huge fan of it.
This is the kind of rework I would want when I was a newer to the game. I remember being so upset when I missed and thought to myself: "Why does this "combo" bullshit have to determine how much PP my plays are worth? I got 99%+ on that run! It only makes me retryspam the same maps over and over!" And then at some later point in time I changed my perspective: "Maybe I don't deserve that score right now. Maybe that "shitmiss" was my fault. Maybe I should try to actually improve and get more consistent so I don't have to retry 50+ times to set the score I want!"

Because of this current system, I have learned to associate FC's with high accuracy as good plays, and they're very satisfying scores to set when I DO set them. When I submit a score, but didn't FC, the score won't feel "finished" to me. And I don't stay away from submitting scores because of that (you can easily tell if you take a quick look at my profile lol). I still set scores because it's a start. I look at the score I just set and feel motivated to improve, so I can set a better play later on the same map and fix the score. The way the current system works compliments this kind of mindset very well. It encourages you to overwrite your old choke plays with FC's that have the highest accuracy you can manage.

What I fear this new rework is going to do. Is make players less inclined to adopt the kind of mindset I wrote about in the former paragraph and make higher PP scores less satisfying to set. Because it will be easier. And the reason this game can make you feel so incredible, is precisely because of how hard it can be. With this new rework you can have shitmisses and sliderbreaks sprinkled through your play and still gain a decent amount of PP from it. This does not incentivize consistency like the current system does and therefore it's more lazy. Which is why it will ultimately, be a less enjoyable experience.

You might find that this rework is very fun the first couple of weeks after it has gone live, but you will not be able to increase your PP by setting overvalued scores indefinitely (unless you are indefinitely improving). And when that time comes you will be back to square one (in the sense that gaining rank/PP will be just as difficult as it was before the rework went live). The only difference at that point is that the bar has been lowered.

PP will be inflated

I am definitely biased here because of the reasons I've mentioned, but I still think it's noteworthy to point this out. Maybe I seem like an osu boomer when writing about this, but this post isn't entirely an appeal to tradition. I've also stated why this current system is in my view superior. The current system is far from perfect, but making this change is definitely a downgrade in my opinion. As it stands now, I think the current system acts as a good bonus becase of how it rewards certain kinds of good scores and it's pretty decent at sucking in new players to the game. But in the end this change will not make me quit the game, even if I think that this is a step in the wrong direction. Because there is more to osu! than just PP.

reworks have always been trash, just bring back v1 because they would never make a perfect pp system anyway.

witchhunted wrote:

reworks have always been trash, just bring back v1 because they would never make a perfect pp system anyway.

epic argument. if it's broken why bother trying to make it as good as possible if it's never gonna be perfect am i right?

perhaps, ppv1 may have been even more flawed based on informations we have available [1] [2] [3]

Aiq wrote:

witchhunted wrote:

reworks have always been trash, just bring back v1 because they would never make a perfect pp system anyway.

epic argument. if it's broken why bother trying to make it as good as possible if it's never gonna be perfect am i right?

perhaps, ppv1 may have been even more flawed based on informations we have available [1] [2] [3]

make FL great again

Aiq wrote:

witchhunted wrote:

reworks have always been trash, just bring back v1 because they would never make a perfect pp system anyway.

epic argument. if it's broken why bother trying to make it as good as possible if it's never gonna be perfect am i right?

perhaps, ppv1 may have been even more flawed based on informations we have available [1] [2] [3]

Imagine if osu hosted an official PPv1 leaderboard page, like the Score ranking leaderboard has, but you know PPv1.
It wouldn't be the main leaderboard players compete in and care about, but I think it could be interesting to see how it works out.

rematyar wrote:

"The last rework nerfed jumps a bit too much" is an other word for "My pp goes down bad rework" I see. Since the last rework doesn't nerf jumps THAT much. (The rework buffed wide angle jumps anyway

Anyway, this rework is okay. Or should I say, bad because my acc will go down

"If you lose PP you can't criticize a rework"
Poor logic IMO. I think many who are looking at it from the right POV can see how jumps got hit a little too hard.
The concept was right, the exact mechanics were a bit off. You can see that in some plays.

Simon12 wrote:

I can see why people want this rework, but I'm personally not a huge fan of it.
This is the kind of rework I would want when I was a newer to the game. I remember being so upset when I missed and thought to myself: "Why does this "combo" bullshit have to determine how much PP my plays are worth? I got 99%+ on that run! It only makes me retryspam the same maps over and over!" And then at some later point in time I changed my perspective: "Maybe I don't deserve that score right now. Maybe that "shitmiss" was my fault. Maybe I should try to actually improve and get more consistent so I don't have to retry 50+ times to set the score I want!"

Because of this current system, I have learned to associate FC's with high accuracy as good plays, and they're very satisfying scores to set when I DO set them. When I submit a score, but didn't FC, the score won't feel "finished" to me. And I don't stay away from submitting scores because of that (you can easily tell if you take a quick look at my profile lol). I still set scores because it's a start. I look at the score I just set and feel motivated to improve, so I can set a better play later on the same map and fix the score. The way the current system works compliments this kind of mindset very well. It encourages you to overwrite your old choke plays with FC's that have the highest accuracy you can manage.

What I fear this new rework is going to do. Is make players less inclined to adopt the kind of mindset I wrote about in the former paragraph and make higher PP scores less satisfying to set. Because it will be easier. And the reason this game can make you feel so incredible, is precisely because of how hard it can be. With this new rework you can have shitmisses and sliderbreaks sprinkled through your play and still gain a decent amount of PP from it. This does not incentivize consistency like the current system does and therefore it's more lazy. Which is why it will ultimately, be a less enjoyable experience.

You might find that this rework is very fun the first couple of weeks after it has gone live, but you will not be able to increase your PP by setting overvalued scores indefinitely (unless you are indefinitely improving). And when that time comes you will be back to square one (in the sense that gaining rank/PP will be just as difficult as it was before the rework went live). The only difference at that point is that the bar has been lowered.

PP will be inflated

I am definitely biased here because of the reasons I've mentioned, but I still think it's noteworthy to point this out. Maybe I seem like an osu boomer when writing about this, but this post isn't entirely an appeal to tradition. I've also stated why this current system is in my view superior. The current system is far from perfect, but making this change is definitely a downgrade in my opinion. As it stands now, I think the current system acts as a good bonus becase of how it rewards certain kinds of good scores and it's pretty decent at sucking in new players to the game. But in the end this change will not make me quit the game, even if I think that this is a step in the wrong direction. Because there is more to osu! than just PP.

How many perfect plays you have doesn't represent your skill because there are many skilled plays that are not "perfect", people will still want to FC with high acc because that will still be the highest possible PP play.

And I have no problem with 'square one' because it's just nice to have plays rewarded accurately in general, even if it's not inflatory.

maniaCmiC wrote:

rematyar wrote:

"The last rework nerfed jumps a bit too much" is an other word for "My pp goes down bad rework" I see. Since the last rework doesn't nerf jumps THAT much. (The rework buffed wide angle jumps anyway

Anyway, this rework is okay. Or should I say, bad because my acc will go down

"If you lose PP you can't criticize a rework"
Poor logic IMO. I think many who are looking at it from the right POV can see how jumps got hit a little too hard.
The concept was right, the exact mechanics were a bit off. You can see that in some plays.

Criticize a rework???? Bro you were like

"boo this rework sucks and the community don't agree with me because they're too dumb!!!!!! this community and rework sucks!!!1!!1! They asked me why???? Because they nerfed justadice jumps!!!!!!????? They're not even 1-2s bro!!!!!"

maniaCmiC wrote:

xD, the latter part about the justadice 1-2's was me trolling.

Most of it was me trolling because there's no point having a genuine argument with all the weebs & degenerates in here.

So why are you even making these posts then? Just for attention?

You know that its possible to have a discussion on here without throwing insults, right? You're just making yourself look bad.

As long as I can still click circles, I don't mind.

maniaCmiC wrote:

How many perfect plays you have doesn't represent your skill because there are many skilled plays that are not "perfect",

I think we might have different ideas of what perfect plays are. I'm not saying a play has to be perfect to gain PP from it, I'm saying you should get PP from FC's with good accuracy.

maniaCmiC wrote:

people will still want to FC with high acc because that will still be the highest possible PP play.

I think most people will stop caring about setting FC's. They will instead only focus on accuracy and misscount (maybe sliderbreaks too, I'm not quite sure about how these are treated in the rework), because this is what is going to determine the PP value of their play. People complain about osu for being a combo game, I can see why, but at the same time I still would prefer keeping combo. Because combo acts as an extra layer of difficulty. Which makes gaining PP more satisfying.

Simon12 wrote:

I think most people will stop caring about setting FC's. They will instead only focus on accuracy and misscount (maybe sliderbreaks too, I'm not quite sure about how these are treated in the rework), because this is what is going to determine the PP value of their play. People complain about osu for being a combo game, I can see why, but at the same time I still would prefer keeping combo. Because combo acts as an extra layer of difficulty. Which makes gaining PP more satisfying.

It's pretty absurd to think that people will stop caring about FCs in the new rework, because they will always be worth more than non-FCs. As with maps that are not FC-able for someone yet, its a GOOD thing that they will care more about accuracy and lowering their misscount. This is how you improve in a rhythm game, not by trying to beat your highest combo. Also not to mention the fact that less combo breaks=bigger combos on average.

darkness12z wrote:

It's pretty absurd to think that people will stop caring about FCs in the new rework, because they will always be worth more than non-FCs.

Well I think they will still want FC's, they will just not want them as much as they do now. Ideally, you would want SS as well, on every map you played, but most are going to settle with what gives them enough PP.
If you can break somewhere in the middle of the map, but still get high acc, a lot of players will not want to fix the score. Because the extra PP they would get from fixing the score wouldn't make a significant difference anyways. And that's the thing with a lot of players, they almost only care about the PP they get.

darkness12z wrote:

As with maps that are not FC-able for someone yet, its a GOOD thing that they will care more about accuracy and lowering their misscount. This is how you improve in a rhythm game, not by trying to beat your highest combo. Also not to mention the fact that less combo breaks=bigger combos on average.

I think combo and accuracy are equally important generally speaking. Also when it comes to improvement.
Low combo plays with high accuracy are just as worthless as FC's with low accuracy in my view.

I am not familiar with the details of a possible rebalance, but in its current version it seems overbuffed. I see no reason to give a lot of PP for not fс(or close to fc). Rework tries to increase the impact of accuracy and reduce the impact of combo. Why? In my opinion, if you have about 98%+ accuracy on the map, it means you can comphortably play it and most likely you can fc it sooner or later, so its no reason to give u like 80% of pp for it. It only demotivates you to play this map to fc, especially if you had excellent accuracy in run before.

R9bina wrote:

I am not familiar with the details of a possible rebalance, but in its current version it seems overbuffed. I see no reason to give a lot of PP for not fс(or close to fc). Rework tries to increase the impact of accuracy and reduce the impact of combo. Why? In my opinion, if you have about 98%+ accuracy on the map, it means you can comphortably play it and most likely you can fc it sooner or later, so its no reason to give u like 80% of pp for it. It only demotivates you to play this map to fc, especially if you had excellent accuracy in run before.

Yeah. So if you can FC a map but you just choked, you shouldn't have to retry spam 40 times just to have the skill you deserve shown.

Motivation is not a factor in PP metrics xd. If you want to FC a map, you can do that yourself for the extra PP.

Because combo has nothing to do with rhythm but accuracy does, that's why the changes are being put in place. It's a rhythm game not a combo game.

And to Simon12--focusing on accuracy and misscount and SBcount is focusing on FC'ing. Less misscounts/slider-breaks just gets you closer to an FC.

An FC will still be the best possible play. It's just you won't need to FC to have a play show your skill level properly. And you shouldn't have to.

darkness12z wrote:

It's pretty absurd to think that people will stop caring about FCs in the new rework, because they will always be worth more than non-FCs. As with maps that are not FC-able for someone yet, its a GOOD thing that they will care more about accuracy and lowering their misscount. This is how you improve in a rhythm game, not by trying to beat your highest combo. Also not to mention the fact that less combo breaks=bigger combos on average.

Once people get to 1 or 2 miss high accuracy on a map they will be better off just going to a higher difficulty map and choking that one instead of aiming for an FC. It will be better to farm chokes than FC's. We can already see that from the number of chokes now in top plays. The number 1 top play after the rework is a choke as well.

Fxjlk wrote:

darkness12z wrote:

It's pretty absurd to think that people will stop caring about FCs in the new rework, because they will always be worth more than non-FCs. As with maps that are not FC-able for someone yet, its a GOOD thing that they will care more about accuracy and lowering their misscount. This is how you improve in a rhythm game, not by trying to beat your highest combo. Also not to mention the fact that less combo breaks=bigger combos on average.

Once people get to 1 or 2 miss high accuracy on a map they will be better off just going to a higher difficulty map and choking that one instead of aiming for an FC. It will be better to farm chokes than FC's. We can already see that from the number of chokes now in top plays. The number 1 top play after the rework is a choke as well.

If you value perfectionism that's fine, but there's more than one way to measure skill and you don't need to push your own values on to others. Playing high star maps to near perfection is just a valid of a skill as playing lower star maps to perfection, and should be rewarded. Or what, are you saying that a play on a 10* map with 288 bpm streams played with great acc and misses once at a random spot that isn't even a difficulty spike should be invalidated in favor of a 8* FC instead? Both are great but to invalidate one for the other because it goes against your own views just comes off as self centered, like only the way you yourself enjoy the game should be allowed.

-towa- wrote:

If you value perfectionism that's fine, but there's more than one way to measure skill and you don't need to push your own values on to others. Playing high star maps to near perfection is just a valid of a skill as playing lower star maps to perfection, and should be rewarded. Or what, are you saying that a play on a 10* map with 288 bpm streams played with great acc and misses once at a random spot that isn't even a difficulty spike should be invalidated in favor of a 8* FC instead? Both are great but to invalidate one for the other because it goes against your own views just comes off as self centered, like only the way you yourself enjoy the game should be allowed.

I think you misunderstand. I advocate for FCs as the best thing for top plays not because I'm a perfectionist. I advocate for them because they are a more accurate way to judge a players skill in this pp system. This is not a preference, its an a judgement.

If you have misses in a play you have no information on them. If you are too lenient on chokes in top plays you will have to evaluate plays with less information which is inherently less accurate.

the rework already makes misses harsher on maps with difficulty spikes