Fuccho wrote:

when??

AlphaKerudio wrote:

Fuccho wrote:

when??

AlphaKerudio wrote:

Fuccho wrote:

when??

AlphaKerudio wrote:

Fuccho wrote:

when??

ProfessionalBox wrote:

lets see if its time now, I let this sat for good 7 months to see if my opinions would change over time as they were challenged many times but as I see there is no reason to change the top diff fundamentally so I'm going to try to rank it in its current state

Lasse and ProBox wrote:

(Blue is ProBox, and pink is Lasse. Green is my agreement and Red is my disagreement
some issues I have with the top diff Let's hear them!

03:04:082 (1) - clicking this seems so strange with what's going on the song, deleting this and making 03:03:920 (1) - a 1/2 or 3/4 slider seems nicer This current patterning is a way of emphasizing the complete stop that the music has between 03:03:839 - 03:03:920 - by a large spacing from a slow slider going to a fast kickslider. The reason it is a kickslider is because it immediately shoots the cursor movement back into the large and fast slider velocity that the part before it had and the part after it has in order to make the increase in overall spacing feel natural right from the start. Anytyhing else but a kickslider would feel lackluster in my opinion. the issue is not the kickslider itself, but how you put a click on 03:04:082 -
which makes no sense at all as I stated before. also the kickslider doesn't have such an effect as nobody willl follow it, thus no "shooting the movement
back" or anything. things that would make more sense: higher sv + 1/2 or 3/4 slider, a gap on rhythm, ... I disagree with the rhythm choice suggested here. While you're suggestion to change 03:03:920 (1) - into 1/2 or 3/4 rhythm works, that's not what fits with the map contextually.
While there is a click here, that doesn't mean the rhythm is inaccurate. The emphasis of the kick slider is greater than the circle, so that contrast between two points in rhythm is equal to that of a 1/2 slider.
Even if a click is 'strange' (I assume you mean unexpected, hard, unplayable, etc) the player has a second finger primed to hit the second key, so rhythm with more clicks than conventional like this aren't that unintuitive (or incorrect) to use.

03:05:866 (3) - all important sounds are on the red tick, but you put a pretty pointless seeming extended slider over that? // 01:33:110 (6) - I talked about my usage of these 3/4 sliders when I replied to Pentori but basically I use them to emphasize the melody on the backgroun as it has a climax here and I don't want to ignore it. where? the blue tick? I don't think so
It looks like ProBox fixed this sometime afterwards, so I'll leave this point alone for now xp

I also have no idea why things like 03:05:379 (3) - 03:06:352 (2) - etc. have to be fullscreen jumps, it's such a weak sound The fact that it is fullscreen doesn't really hold any extra value here as the whole part has relatively high spacing to follow the transpose the music has and the increase in intensity that the music brings with it because of that. So compared to rest of the spacing in this part this is normal spacing and consistent. it actually holds "extra" value by devaluing your other big jumps mapped to much more significant beats I think ProBox is right for this part, as the jump visually looks similar to it's surrounding jumps so consistency wise it should be okay.
However, your point on how it 'devalues other bigger jumps' I feel is incorrect, as if you compare it to the next part where the tension builds up slightly 03:07:812 (1,2,1,2) - the spacing is larger to compliment that, so I don't feel it 'devalues' the larger jumps.

overall rhythm choice overall often seems like you just throw multiple layers together losing pretty much all emphasis, like 03:07:974 (2,2) - are emphasizing vocals, but 03:07:487 (1) - ignores vocals, despite 03:07:487 (1,1,2,1,2) - being a rather repetitive thing, so using the same rhythm for all 3 parts of this would make more sense I think This is just my opinion and I can understand why this would cause some controversy but the reason I mix in all these rhythm choices is so that I wouldn't commit myself into following a single aspect in the song too much. If I commit myself into following just a single thing in music then the player starts to expect that in all parts of the song and it makes my mapping much more limited. If I mix all these elements in I can emphasize the parts that I find worth emphasizing much more naturally as the player isn't made to think that oh since this part comes up it must follow the vocals now or the melody now etc. The whole map is a proof of this way of thinking, I mix up the following of vocals and instruments a lot but I do it in a way that feels natural for me. I know it's a cliché thing to say that it's my way of mapping but it truly is and it's present in all of my maps that give me the option to do this (songs that have so many elements mixed in them that allow for this kind of change of things I follow instead of being so forcefully linear that they make me follow a certain aspect of a song from start to finish like vocals for example). Now to say why I do this precisely in this part is so that I can naturally add the piano sounds at 03:08:460 (1,2,3,4,1) - into the map because the player isn't expecting me to blindly follow the vocals and this makes for a much more interesting and fun to play part because of the piano being here. Apologies for the long explanation but I thought it was necessary to make you understand my perspective a bit more as you might find the reasoning behind my responses a bit lacking at times. doesn't make any sense to me but whatever For this particular section you gave in the example I agree with you. While 03:07:487 (6) - shares similar emphasis to 03:07:812 (1,2,1,2) - because they vary so quickly / suddenly when they're so similar in sound could feel surprising to play.
I can discuss with ProBox how we could potentially improve this when we talk ingame.

01:39:110 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,1) - this completely ignores the song with the pretty outstanding 3/4 rhythm of the drums, emphasis would be on http://lasse.s-ul.eu/RohA0gx2.jpg When I started to map this I chose to simplify all of these into streams that are a mix of the drums and the piano as I find it natural being a stream instead of a triplet into kickslider jumpspam. doesn't change the fact that it fails at representing the song properly The rhythm choice ProBox uses here works to compliment the subtlety, however it might come as a shock when playing because the spacing is similar to that of 01:29:704 (2,3,4,5,6,7) - which has more powerful beats.
I feel this rhythm would work if the spacing and / or pattern complimented the subtlety of the mapped sounds. (maybe bunch up / shorten the spacing / pattern so as to contrast the difference in intensity)
Simplification of this rhythm works because it captures the important beats while capturing the more subtle ones without really throwing anything too shocking at the player.
same goes for 00:22:731 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) - and wherever else this happens ^
01:40:893 (1) - I have no idea what this is supposed to do. just leaving this empty would make it fit so much better // 00:24:353 (2) - This was intended to be like a built in "countdown" but since it isn't necessary and works without it I'll remove it. This got fixed xp

02:26:785 (2) - things like this make no sense at all emphasis wise, you put a click on nothing and end it on snare+vocal which seem to be what you usally focus on 02:26:299 (1,2,1,2) - These being the opposites of eachother rhythmwise is intended to emphasize the switch from vocal follow into following drums for the duration that vocals aren't present how does that justify mapping 1/2 sliders that randomly start on nothing but end on important beats. this could probably work as some overall concept of the map, but not like you did it It looks like ProBox patched this one too, as the rhythm now doesn't match up with what Lasse's describing.
02:57:109 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - completely ignores 3/4 emphasis again, when http://lasse.s-ul.eu/QIRZ6L19.jpg stand out so much more#
this is so distinctively different from 02:55:812 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - yet you just continue the spacing increasing stream. As mentioned above I chose to simplify all these rhythms in the song and here the obvious increase in intensity is presented by increasing the spacing of the stream (the most important kicks have an increase in spacing between them to take these really important kicks into addition even if the rhythm is simplified 02:57:028 (4,1) - 02:57:677 (4,1) - ) The stream I feel compliments the intensity really well as it still covers the important sounds mentioned in your post without using any surprising rhythm.

03:44:298 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - think a rhythm like http://lasse.s-ul.eu/ARIYEh0W.jpg would be nice as that would let you emphasize the snares with 1/4 sliders and the melody with jumps/starting to click again, the current is alright on melody with (5) but seems a bit weird with the very outstanding snares on the white ticks Here the emphasizing in the simplified version happens with the turning point being the strong kick 03:44:622 (5) - simplifying 3/4 rhythms on a 185bpm 7* map, nice. as above this doesn't represent the song at all I think I'll address this in a general point since this comes up a lot, but to say this 'doesn't represent the song at all' is incorrect, as there is logic behind the simplification. There's more to rhythm than just what's clickable and what isn't. There's also emphasis, intensity, vibe, and maybe even other factors to consider when it comes to rhythm. I think Probox avoid the style of rhythm you're suggesting because it would actually provide less engaging gameplay than a stream.

another thing would be overall usage of spacing between sections, mainly in the "calmer" parts like the intro, making for a lack of contrast between them and the more intense parts
examples would be 00:06:028 (2,3) - 00:05:704 (5,1) - 00:11:218 (6,1) - and a lot more similar stuff in this part. it's only background noise and vocals, yet very similar to the first chorus intensity wise Hmm I like the idea of distincting these more so I'll adjust them to what might seem a little to you but noticeable for me but still I will lower the spacing on these!
00:46:974 (1) - 00:56:461 - this part is executed better in that regard. I agree.
Looks like ProBox fixed these too


00:57:272 (2,3) - what are these even following? big spacing jumps on nothing? I agree these do land on nothingness but this is the kind of reasonable "overmapping" that exists as I went over this with Monstrata and got opinions from players such as Xilver for this aswell. While you are playing this clicking at these part feels only natural opposed to having nothing there. And the argument for these being big jumps refer to my response below. similar to earlier points, devalues the actual strong sounds in the song Just because there's nothing there doesn't mean the rhythm is incorrect. The way ProBox seems to map his rhythm is through emphasis > what's clickable / isn't clickable.
He could've mapped it as a reverse slider or a stack, but the problem with that option is the object density would slow down tremendously, which might come as more of a shock to the player than the rhythm mapped right now.
Maybe if ProBox placed a clap on 00:57:272 (3) - it'd play more intuitively as it would "blend in", but alone this rhythm isn't unpredictable and still compliments the emphasis of the song.
02:14:461 (2) - can you at least not put huge spacing on these things lol clicking is already barely makes any sense here But this isn't huge? compare to 02:15:272 (2,3) - 02:16:083 (3,1) - 02:16:893 (3,4) - This is normal spacing I use for this part. maybe reconsider your whole spacing concept then I kind of agree yet disagree with this point.
WHile the jumps are slightly larger at the point mentioned than expected, you could argue the difference isn't great enough to suggest it isn't mapped to the same sound as 02:13:974 (2,3) - because of that, I feel the jumps could be shortened, but I don't think that would make a huge improvement.

MaridiuS wrote:

03:14:298 (2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - Just asking but I fail to understand what is being followed here. The vocals 03:14:298 (2,4,5) - which are like the only thing remotely intense in this pattern are not emphasized by either spacing or rhythm. 03:14:460 (3) - this note is too quiet to the point that I'm unsure if it's even a hihat.

MaridiuS wrote:

03:15:271 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - same concern here.

Lasse wrote:

there was never an actual reply to p/5947741 by the mapper

also @Bubblun: this is not how vetos are supposed to be handled anymore, see https://osu.ppy.sh/help/wiki/People/Bea ... atmap_Veto
we are still in the process of mediating old vetos and put this one on higher priority now, please wait until it has been discussed

Lasse wrote:

Further discussion maybe?

Lasse wrote:

Furthermore the given replies were oftentimes far from satisfactory and pretty much nonsensical.

ProfessionalBox wrote:

Lasse wrote:

some issues I have with the top diff Let's hear them!

03:04:082 (1) - clicking this seems so strange with what's going on the song, deleting this and making 03:03:920 (1) - a 1/2 or 3/4 slider seems nicer This current patterning is a way of emphasizing the complete stop that the music has between 03:03:839 - 03:03:920 - by a large spacing from a slow slider going to a fast kickslider. The reason it is a kickslider is because it immediately shoots the cursor movement back into the large and fast slider velocity that the part before it had and the part after it has in order to make the increase in overall spacing feel natural right from the start. Anytyhing else but a kickslider would feel lackluster in my opinion. the issue is not the kickslider itself, but how you put a click on 03:04:082 -
which makes no sense at all as I stated before. also the kickslider doesn't have such an effect as nobody willl follow it, thus no "shooting the movement
back" or anything. things that would make more sense: higher sv + 1/2 or 3/4 slider, a gap on rhythm, ... Made this a slider instead.
03:05:866 (3) - all important sounds are on the red tick, but you put a pretty pointless seeming extended slider over that? // 01:33:110 (6) - It would seem that this is outdated now as there is no extended slider

I also have no idea why things like 03:05:379 (3) - 03:06:352 (2) - etc. have to be fullscreen jumps, it's such a weak sound The fact that it is fullscreen doesn't really hold any extra value here as the whole part has relatively high spacing to follow the transpose the music has and the increase in intensity that the music brings with it because of that. So compared to rest of the spacing in this part this is normal spacing and consistent. it actually holds "extra" value by devaluing your other big jumps mapped to much more significant beats These are not nearly big enough to devalue other jumps in the map. The whole point of this part is what I explained earlier: Following the transpose with bigger overall spacing for the entire kiai section makes perfect sense. Unless you have another argument than devaluing jumps I will not even consider changing these as these are perfectly fine.

overall rhythm choice overall often seems like you just throw multiple layers together losing pretty much all emphasis, like 03:07:974 (2,2) - are emphasizing vocals, but 03:07:487 (1) - ignores vocals, despite 03:07:487 (1,1,2,1,2) - being a rather repetitive thing, so using the same rhythm for all 3 parts of this would make more sense I think This part has been changed with the IRC mod from Bubblun

01:39:110 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,1) - this completely ignores the song with the pretty outstanding 3/4 rhythm of the drums, emphasis would be on http://lasse.s-ul.eu/RohA0gx2.jpg Changed.

02:26:785 (2) - things like this make no sense at all emphasis wise, you put a click on nothing and end it on snare+vocal which seem to be what you usally focus on 02:26:299 (1,2,1,2) - These being the opposites of eachother rhythmwise is intended to emphasize the switch from vocal follow into following drums for the duration that vocals aren't present how does that justify mapping 1/2 sliders that randomly start on nothing but end on important beats. this could probably work as some overall concept of the map, but not like you did it idk if this is an outdated point but the current way is perfectly fine not gonna touch it.

02:57:109 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - completely ignores 3/4 emphasis again, when http://lasse.s-ul.eu/QIRZ6L19.jpg stand out so much more#
this is so distinctively different from 02:55:812 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - yet you just continue the spacing increasing stream. Here it is about the gradual intensity increase of the part as a whole and not individual circles. The important beats get their emphasis from the tiny streamjumps included. Not gonna budge on this.

03:44:298 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - think a rhythm like http://lasse.s-ul.eu/ARIYEh0W.jpg would be nice as that would let you emphasize the snares with 1/4 sliders and the melody with jumps/starting to click again, the current is alright on melody with (5) but seems a bit weird with the very outstanding snares on the white ticks Here the emphasizing in the simplified version happens with the turning point being the strong kick 03:44:622 (5) - simplifying 3/4 rhythms on a 185bpm 7* map, nice. as above this doesn't represent the song at all Current way is perfectly fine.

another thing would be overall usage of spacing between sections, mainly in the "calmer" parts like the intro, making for a lack of contrast between them and the more intense parts
examples would be 00:06:028 (2,3) - 00:05:704 (5,1) - 00:11:218 (6,1) - and a lot more similar stuff in this part. it's only background noise and vocals, yet very similar to the first chorus intensity wise Hmm I like the idea of distincting these more so I'll adjust them to what might seem a little to you but noticeable for me but still I will lower the spacing on these!
00:46:974 (1) - 00:56:461 - this part is executed better in that regard I agree.


00:57:272 (2,3) - what are these even following? big spacing jumps on nothing? I agree these do land on nothingness but this is the kind of reasonable "overmapping" that exists as I went over this with Monstrata and got opinions from players such as Xilver for this aswell. While you are playing this clicking at these part feels only natural opposed to having nothing there. And the argument for these being big jumps refer to my response below. similar to earlier points, devalues the actual strong sounds in the song Current way is perfectly fine.
02:14:461 (2) - can you at least not put huge spacing on these things lol clicking is already barely makes any sense here But this isn't huge? compare to 02:15:272 (2,3) - 02:16:083 (3,1) - 02:16:893 (3,4) - This is normal spacing I use for this part. maybe reconsider your whole spacing concept then Current way is perfectly fine.

Thank you for the mods !

Lasse wrote:

01:39:110 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2) - this at least makes more sense now
02:56:785 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - still doesnt even try to represent the 3/4 emphasis in the song through movement or rhythm

well the map is still filled with lots of questionable things, so I'll just sum up the main points again since the replies are getting too convoluted

just looking at rhythms 03:04:244 (1,2,3,4) - makes me question what you're trying to do, it feels like mindless circle spam and according to your replies this won't change and it's basically the whole map. basically makes the whole map feel extremely forced since it's filled with circle jump spam that feels completely out of place

some other diffs (like Kibbleru's) actually seem to do this much better from the quick look I had, if you want an example for rhythm choice that actually makes sense

rhythm/spacing overall just feels like a mess, looking at things like 03:07:487 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - just being random fullscreen 1-2 jumps, you can't even argue that you wanted to emphasize vocals or whatever, those are focusing on red ticks

then other rhythm things that just make everything unclear for example 01:25:326 (5) - before this you focused on vocals, then suddenly this just switches to drums and completely skips red tick vocal, followed by 01:25:326 (5,1,2,3) - being some kind of drum rhythm just to go back to vocals on 01:26:299 (1,2,3,1,2) - which is one of the issues that happens pretty much throughout the whole map

[]
short summary:
overall I still think both spacing and rhythm are fundamentally flawed, which is also the main reason to keep this veto
lots of examples in the initial veto (like 00:57:110 (1,2,3) - etc) and in this post, I can basically jump to a random point in the map and find things like 01:31:488 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - within a few seconds, which just feels like nonsensical filler rhythm jump spam

Lasse wrote:

02:56:785 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - still doesnt even try to represent the 3/4 emphasis in the song through movement or rhythm This shouldn't need to follow 3/4 emphasis. This is clearly following the 1/4 drum roll and it's completely justified by the music. Here, there is no imperative to following 3/4, rather that would distract from the mapper's objective here.

just looking at rhythms 03:04:244 (1,2,3,4) - makes me question what you're trying to do, it feels like mindless circle spam and according to your replies this won't change and it's basically the whole map. basically makes the whole map feel extremely forced since it's filled with circle jump spam that feels completely out of place Are you sure? This is probably not the timestamp you want, because everything here is justified in the music... Listen to what the circles are following, when you click them you can hear them syncing to something. I get your concerns though, just, not a good example here imo.

rhythm/spacing overall just feels like a mess, looking at things like 03:07:487 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - just being random fullscreen 1-2 jumps, you can't even argue that you wanted to emphasize vocals or whatever, those are focusing on red ticks If you look at the map as a whole they aren't "random full screen" jumps, they aren't even that big since vertical screen jumps are a lot smaller than horizontal screen jumps. Rhythm-wise, they follow kicks and vocals. Following vocals =/= emphasizing vocals. Mapping these as 1/2 sliders is too simple for this difficulty, using 1/2 circles is the way to go so inevitable you have to map kicks and vocals to 1/2.

then other rhythm things that just make everything unclear for example 01:25:326 (5) - before this you focused on vocals, then suddenly this just switches to drums and completely skips red tick vocal, followed by 01:25:326 (5,1,2,3) - being some kind of drum rhythm just to go back to vocals on 01:26:299 (1,2,3,1,2) - which is one of the issues that happens pretty much throughout the whole map Yes, agree with these. Brought it up with ProBox at one point, I still recommend fixing this.

[]
short summary:
overall I still think both spacing and rhythm are fundamentally flawed, which is also the main reason to keep this veto
lots of examples in the initial veto (like 00:57:110 (1,2,3) - etc) This is a good example and in this post, I can basically jump to a random point in the map and find things like 01:31:488 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - within a few seconds Poor example here though. Everything here snaps to something in the music., which just feels like nonsensical filler rhythm jump spam

1. Spacing concept used leaves little to no room for contrast in spacing and movement to match contrasting elements in the song within many patterns. Contrast in spacing between patterns in certain sections is too minor and disallows differentiation of strong vs. weak beats. Examples can be found within the original veto post, alongside 00:31:164 (1,2,3,1) - mostly mapped to faint bg noise yet huge spacing, 00:36:353 (1,2) - emphasis on red tick with no sound yet is nearly halfway across the screen, 01:05:218 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - which has no emphasis on red ticks yet are 1>2 half-screens.
2. An abundance of overmapping mostly unsupported by the song. A noticeable case is 00:55:650 (3,1,2,3) - where there is no 3/4 in the song, similar to 02:12:191 (2,1,2). 00:57:110 (1,2,3,4) - also an unsupported rhythm as there are no notable sounds on (2), coupled with too high spacing.

diraimur wrote:

you people are trying so hard to kill osu lol

-Mo- wrote:

Spacing concept used leaves little to no room for contrast in spacing and movement to match contrasting elements in the song within many patterns. Contrast in spacing between patterns in certain sections is too minor and disallows differentiation of strong vs. weak beats.

-Mo- wrote:

An abundance of overmapping mostly unsupported by the song.