Speed of cursor movement = no
"Cursor never appeared between two circles, instead only being on them" = yes
"Cursor never appeared between two circles, instead only being on them" = yes
It doesn't matter that they can only play a select few maps if the maps they play are considered "overweight" to many players.Grim Rapper wrote:
Why I'm seen many complaints saying "BAN CHEATSCREEN" then? Also why in the previous post jesse said that the touchscreen is the issue
My point is on the touchscreen, and you're questioning that instead?Grim Rapper wrote:
Why you're questioning the consistency of a player?
Well, At least something was cleared up. It sounded pretty rude so I was pretty annoyed. Sorry about that.Grim Rapper wrote:
My statement in here isn't saying that "hah, you're wrong, try again" but simply saying that "even though your answer imo didn't really answer my question, please don't take this personal. We can agree to disagree"
I do admit that part of my statement is flawed, but because you haven't given a counter-argument on the rest of it, The rest still stands.Grim Rapper wrote:
If streams "can be difficult to aim", why it rewarded less than pure note-to-note jump then? and why Cry Thunder (that objectively the hardest stream jump today imo) only gave 507pp FC with 99.46% acc despite the length being 5:12 minutes? It's the logic of "this is an aim game" that makes the pp system broken in the first place
The very fact it's a competitive game makes unbalance a major problem. We don't want to get passed by someone using a playstyle that is considered broken to you. The only reason why Peppy is acting is because of the major unrest in the people that are upset.Grim Rapper wrote:
Unbalance in competitive reason cannot be justified when the factor of the "balance" is consider broken by the majority of the people
I agree that the skill required for many touchscreen plays isn't very accurately represented by pp value. Some of my 300pp plays were just as difficult for me as some of my 500pp plays. I'm pretty split as to what the temporary solution should be, but I definitely agree that a long term solution in lazer would be best.freedomdiver wrote:
I can also personally attest to the fact that the impressiveness of many plays on touchscreen is at best weakly correlated to their pp values, and that all 600+ pp scores on touchscreen are set on mostly uninteresting maps, that, while requiring a high level of competency, are likely not at the boundaries of what most top touch players consider very impressive (although I can't claim to speak for everyone here); having these plays be the "most" preserved under pp reduction makes no sense, and indeed any attempt at balance purely through haphazard manipulation of numbers (such as aim reduction) is unlikely to leave anyone satisfied.
Such attempts should only be considered more thoroughly if/when touchscreen is integrated separately into osu!lazer; until then, unranking the plays in terms of pp is really the only solution that makes any sense.
In my opinion, I wouldn't just make touchscreen players unranked. That's just a bit cruel. Yes, touchscreen is considered unfair to a significant amount of people, but that is not reason to unrank it. Even if peppy also says so.freedomdiver wrote:
Not sure where to best post this, but in regards to the proposed pp deflation, I would much prefer touchscreen plays being unranked, and am strongly against any sort of percentage or "aim component" reduction; if all touchscreen plays are going to be labeled with a mod as broken and less impressive (which at this point is more than fair), then players should not be punished by having their top rankings clogged up with "unimpressive" plays, just because they decided to try out a certain playstyle back in a time where the extent of that playstyle's imbalance was not as widely known.
Unless we are looking at pp reductions of at least 70-80% (at which point you might as well unrank anyways), what you are going to end up with is a bunch of defunct profiles with highest pp plays all stuck being touchscreen, making it extremely hard for these players to enjoy the game when branching out into other playstyles (which they would probably prefer doing, considering that at that point touchscreen will have been officially classified as unfair).
I can also personally attest to the fact that the impressiveness of many plays on touchscreen is at best weakly correlated to their pp values, and that all 600+ pp scores on touchscreen are set on mostly uninteresting maps, that, while requiring a high level of competency, are likely not at the boundaries of what most top touch players consider very impressive (although I can't claim to speak for everyone here); having these plays be the "most" preserved under pp reduction makes no sense, and indeed any attempt at balance purely through haphazard manipulation of numbers (such as aim reduction) is unlikely to leave anyone satisfied.
Such attempts should only be considered more thoroughly if/when touchscreen is integrated separately into osu!lazer; until then, unranking the plays in terms of pp is really the only solution that makes any sense.
No, something being considered unfair by a significant portion of the playerbase is a perfectly legitimate reason to unrank it. If you are still trying to advocate for touch players not being affected in any way at all, you are quite a few steps behind in the argument; at this point it is already a given that something will be done exclusively to disadvantage touch players, and the creation of this thread was not to discuss whether that should happen, but only possibly how to enact it.NepNep- wrote:
In my opinion, I wouldn't just make touchscreen players unranked. That's just a bit cruel. Yes, touchscreen is considered unfair to a significant amount of people, but that is not reason to unrank it. Even if peppy also says so.
That's... somewhat selfish of you, don't you think. If you don't care about your presence on community leaderboards, you shouldn't be concerned about playing for no pp; otherwise, you should recognize that it is the communities' and developers' right to agree on what is fair for those leaderboards, and it shouldn't be up to what you personally prefer, as only one member of a very large community, especially when most of that community disagrees with you (as you yourself claim is the case here).NepNep- wrote:
I'd rather not get banned from the leaderboards just because the community despises what I use.
What exactly do you mean by this? I personally would have no issue with this, as it would return competition to level ground among each playstyle. Either way, peppy has explicitly stated that the amount of infrastructure required for this basically rules it out as a short term solution.NepNep- wrote:
But I doubt heavily that a complete solution will be found. The most simple solution would be to just separate the touchscreen from the rest of std, which doesn't sound like a good idea if you dive deeper into the touchscreen players.
I'm talking in a more humane perspective. I merely wanted to give my opinion on it. Hence the "in my opinion"freedomdiver wrote:
No, something being considered unfair by a significant portion of the playerbase is a perfectly legitimate reason to unrank it. If you are still trying to advocate for touch players not being affected in any way at all, you are quite a few steps behind in the argument; at this point it is already a given that something will be done exclusively to disadvantage touch players, and the creation of this thread was not to discuss whether that should happen, but only possibly how to enact it.
It is selfish. Not to just a touchscreen player, but for the most of the touchscreen community. I find it cruel if peppy just outright "bans" hundreds, or thousands of players just because they used touchscreen.freedomdiver wrote:
That's... somewhat selfish of you, don't you think. If you don't care about your presence on community leaderboards, you shouldn't be concerned about playing for no pp; otherwise, you should recognize that it is the communities' and developers' right to agree on what is fair for those leaderboards, and it shouldn't be up to what you personally prefer, as only one member of a very large community, especially when most of that community disagrees with you (as you yourself claim is the case here).
If peppy does mange to get touchscreen in a different leaderboard, what then? The touchscreen community is extremely sparse compared to the rest. It wouldn't be that "fun" to some, or maybe most of the touchscreen players if it gets separated.freedomdiver wrote:
What exactly do you mean by this? I personally would have no issue with this, as it would return competition to level ground among each playstyle. Either way, peppy has explicitly stated that the amount of infrastructure required for this basically rules it out as a short term solution.
Making a new gamemode has been the most suggested thing here. It's one of the most simple solutions people can think of, but there are multiple downsides to it. With one of the biggest being that the Touchscreen community is really small. Maybe a few thousand even plays touchscreen. Imagine how "boring" the leaderboards would be? The gap in ranks between some people would be pretty big. There is also the issue of multiplayer. I don't think many people would be on it. Maps can just be taken from standard, but most would be unplayed due to touchscreen disadvantages.citremi wrote:
Can we make an entirely new game mode?
Something like osu! touch, with a separate leaderboard from everyone else. You can probably include phone and tablet players of osu! lazer on here, too, maybe?This is still kind of dipping into the "huge infrastructure change" option, I think.
osu! touch could be catered specifically towards touchscreen players, with allowing multiple inputs at once, kind of like the Love Live mobile game. Except, instead of all the circles sitting around and you waiting for the notes to approach, it plays like osu! standard. Except, it has up to 10 things to press at once. You could even have different types of notes (flick notes, hold notes, etc) to make it more interesting.
The only way for this to work, though, is to make osu! touch feel much more rewarding to play for touchscreen players than osu! standard. If no one cares about it and no one thinks it's worth playing, then this option just becomes a waste of time. But that's the only way I can really think of dealing with this issue (right now, anyways), by making a game mode that people want to play that has an inherently different input setup so that no one can complain about touchscreens having an advantage.
You should really be better at discerning the problem from it's context here. You can draw a "cause and effect" relation back to basically anything, such as the implementation of the ranking system, the release of the game, the invention of touchscreens, the creation of the solar system, etc.Edgar_Figaro wrote:
Just a summary of imo how we got to touchscreens being a problem:
ScoreV1 was based around combo
Most combo breaks occur due to a lack of aim or aim & tapping not being correctly coordinated
PP system to not be completely aggravating had to go with a combo based scoring system otherwise low PP scores would replace high more often then they do even now.
Since combo is primarily about aim and missing meant almost no PP, aim was rated extremely highly in the PP system
Players realizing that the fastest way to high ranks was to focus aim improvement
Mappers realizing people preferred aim type maps (because of PP) started mapping lots of jump heavy maps
Touchscreen input device trivializes aim
Due to large quantity and High SR of pure jump maps with the combo/aim PP system, touchscreen is OP.
Solution:
Make Combo less important, ScoreV1 choosing combo as the metric was really the start of all the problems.
and how would an automated system be able to tell? this is much easier to take advantage oflpavbak wrote:
i dont know, wrote this someone before(i readed a 5 pages of this post and im kinda bored), but some people here want a separate leaderbords for touchscreen players and "normal" players, but why no one complains about the mouse players and tablet players, why people doesnt want a separate leaderboards for them?
what are you on aboutHelltraX wrote:
Cant we just have moderators monitoring sketchy game play and then they can make the decision.
easily, because touchscreen players cursor teleport.itsamemarioo wrote:
and how would an automated system be able to tell? this is much easier to take advantage oflpavbak wrote:
i dont know, wrote this someone before(i readed a 5 pages of this post and im kinda bored), but some people here want a separate leaderbords for touchscreen players and "normal" players, but why no one complains about the mouse players and tablet players, why people doesnt want a separate leaderboards for them?
I was referring to separate leaderboards for mouse and tablet. Separate leaderboards for touchscreen seems like a pretty good long-term solution to me and it's easy to see how an automated system could tell the differencelpavbak wrote:
easily, because touchscreen players cursor teleport.
unnecessary, both are 1:1 inputsitsamemarioo wrote:
I was referring to separate leaderboards for mouse and tablet. Separate leaderboards for touchscreen seems like a pretty good long-term solution to me and it's easy to see how an automated system could tell the differencelpavbak wrote:
easily, because touchscreen players cursor teleport.
because mouse and tablet are essentially the same...lpavbak wrote:
i dont know, wrote this someone before(i readed a 5 pages of this post and im kinda bored), but some people here want a separate leaderbords for touchscreen players and "normal" players, but why no one complains about the mouse players and tablet players, why people doesnt want a separate leaderboards for them?
Automated systems could tell mouse and tablet apart by looking at how "shaky" the cursor is, or for a more accurate approach, checking what input is used. Tablets and touchscreen are both read differently by the OS compared to mouse and touchpad. They're handled by Windows Ink instead of the normal drivers, which is also why some programs (esp. in-browser apps) will not respond to touch or tablet input but work fine with a mouse.itsamemarioo wrote:
and how would an automated system be able to tell? this is much easier to take advantage oflpavbak wrote:
i dont know, wrote this someone before(i readed a 5 pages of this post and im kinda bored), but some people here want a separate leaderbords for touchscreen players and "normal" players, but why no one complains about the mouse players and tablet players, why people doesnt want a separate leaderboards for them?
Not always. If you have a touchscreen with a digitzer ("hover" capabilities) and play with the stylus, there isn't teleportation unless you pull too far away from the screen. You can potentially watch replays of it and be unable to tell if the person is using touchscreen or tablet as the cursor will move the same way.xxjesus1412fanx wrote:
easily, because touchscreen players cursor teleport.
I'm sorry i don't understand. Do you have an issue with your touchscreen or you're just not capable of playing osu! using only the touchscreen? If you have any issues you can ask here.Honeybun08 wrote:
How do you even play w/ only touchscreen? I tried but it only would for keyboard I can only play other osu! games but not osu