citremi wrote:

[*]Checking how fast the cursor is moving.

What would be the limit for how fast a cursor should move in a given amount of time?

What if someone moves so fast with a tablet that the checking system thinks that they are using touchscreen?

What if a tablet hover player accidentally lifts his pen just a little bit too far while making that one jump? Should he/she be penalized for that?

Introduce a value called "travel distance" to all maps. This distance is measured by how much the cursor moves while the map is played in auto mode - not counting sliders or spinners.

If at the end of a play the player's travel distance is less than 10% of the one generated by the game then the game assumes there was a lot of warping involved and thus touchscreen was used.

Cursor movements beyond a certain speed (clear warping like half the screen in one frame) won't add to the player's travel distance.

I started playing osu! with a graphics tablet, then switched to touchscreen. I currently play using a stylus on a Surface Book (i.e. a single input point) & no keyboard. I've used both a digitizing screen (the cursor follows your hand when you hover, so it looks the same as a tablet play as long as you don't pull your hand back too far) and non-digitizing (the cursor can't move unless you click, so it looks like the cursor is jumping around erratically). I've tried using a mouse in the past as well.

If you try switching from a mouse to a tablet to a touchscreen, you'd realize that there's a similar gap in ability between mouse & tablet as there is between tablet & touchscreen. Tablet & touchscreen are both free-moving, frictionless points for jumps (and if you're using a digitized touchscreen or a tablet, both with keyboard, it's frictionless for EVERYTHING, while non-digitized touchscreens are slowed by friction for sliders); mouses are not. This means both tablet & touchscreen have a massive advantage over mouse for jumps, or honestly for ANY element since fine motor control is way better on both. Tablets with touch capability can even use multiple points of contact if you set them up correctly, making the only difference between them and an actual touchscreen the fact that there's a visual disconnect (which you get over with practice). One of the best things you can do for accuracy is ditch mouse and go for a tablet, and there are significantly more tablet players in the upper ranks than mouse players because of this. Yet does anyone call for tablet to be ranked separate from mouse? No, because everyone is already so familiar with that technology that it's just an accepted fact of life by now.

Accuracy, while easier on touchscreen, is also not entirely sidestepped (that's why if you look at most touchscreen players profiles, even if they mostly avoid stream maps--which are near-impossible without keyboard--there's not some massive boost in their accuracy rating compared to their tablet-using counterparts). You're still moving to click something on time.
There's also a sizing issue--if you're using a touchscreen laptop or standalone monitor, NOT a phone or tiny tablet, they're way bigger than almost every graphics tablet. I have a medium Wacom Intuos P&T and that thing has like 1/2 the usable area of the smallest touchscreen I've used (Microsoft Surface Book) and an even bigger difference compared to the larger ones I've used (HP Envy x360, Toshiba Satellite Radius). The time it takes to jump is longer than for a tablet and while you can window osu! to combat this, that adds to another issue: blind spots. Your hand covers part of the screen, especially if you're playing in a smaller window or on maps with tinier notes, something completely irrelevant to tablet users.

We're likely to see more people with touchscreens in the near feature as the technology becomes more widespread and less expensive (and the fact that there will be ipad/tablet versions of osu! eventually). So acting like it's some scary foreign thing needs to die. And because of the increasing tech availability & the fact that people can now have had them long enough to be seasoned with them, we're also probably going to end up with more skilled touchscreen players breaking into the top ranks. If you could accept tablets, you will learn to accept touchscreens too. Calm down.

-------

The PP system weights large jumps way more than any other element so modern mappers have taken to focusing heavily on that. Maps that are less than a minute long and almost exclusively jumps shouldn't be capable of giving out so much PP to begin with, yet that's what the system rewards right now. Once that's fixed there's really nothing else to do and things will just fall back into normalcy.

lolarisan wrote:

It's good that u brought this up so quick peppy.

As technology is getting more advanced by time maybe there are other "tools" we should consider an fix on as early as possible.

There are certain companies out there that are currently developing eye-tracking software. What are you thought on this seeing as this may be an issue?

It's already a thing. My laptop has built-in Tobii Eye Tracking. I've used it to play and it's spectacularly annoying, since you can't look at upcoming notes lol. There's some footage from other people already up on Youtube (I recorded some as well but never got around to editing it).

iridi wrote:

I started playing osu! with a graphics tablet, then switched to touchscreen. I currently play using a stylus on a Surface Book (i.e. a single input point) & no keyboard. I've used both a digitizing screen (the cursor follows your hand when you hover, so it looks the same as a tablet play as long as you don't pull your hand back too far) and non-digitizing (the cursor can't move unless you click, so it looks like the cursor is jumping around erratically). I've tried using a mouse in the past as well.

If you try switching from a mouse to a tablet to a touchscreen, you'd realize that there's a similar gap in ability between mouse & tablet as there is between tablet & touchscreen. Tablet & touchscreen are both free-moving, frictionless points for jumps (and if you're using a digitized touchscreen or a tablet, both with keyboard, it's frictionless for EVERYTHING, while non-digitized touchscreens are slowed by friction for sliders); mouses are not. This means both tablet & touchscreen have a massive advantage over mouse for jumps, or honestly for ANY element since fine motor control is way better on both. Tablets with touch capability can even use multiple points of contact if you set them up correctly, making the only difference between them and an actual touchscreen the fact that there's a visual disconnect (which you get over with practice). One of the best things you can do for accuracy is ditch mouse and go for a tablet, and there are significantly more tablet players in the upper ranks than mouse players because of this. Yet does anyone call for tablet to be ranked separate from mouse? No, because everyone is already so familiar with that technology that it's just an accepted fact of life by now.

Accuracy, while easier on touchscreen, is also not entirely sidestepped (that's why if you look at most touchscreen players profiles, even if they mostly avoid stream maps--which are near-impossible without keyboard--there's not some massive boost in their accuracy rating compared to their tablet-using counterparts). You're still moving to click something on time.
There's also a sizing issue--if you're using a touchscreen laptop or standalone monitor, NOT a phone or tiny tablet, they're way bigger than almost every graphics tablet. I have a medium Wacom Intuos P&T and that thing has like 1/2 the usable area of the smallest touchscreen I've used (Microsoft Surface Book) and an even bigger difference compared to the larger ones I've used (HP Envy x360, Toshiba Satellite Radius). The time it takes to jump is longer than for a tablet and while you can window osu! to combat this, that adds to another issue: blind spots. Your hand covers part of the screen, especially if you're playing in a smaller window or on maps with tinier notes, something completely irrelevant to tablet users.

We're likely to see more people with touchscreens in the near feature as the technology becomes more widespread and less expensive (and the fact that there will be ipad/tablet versions of osu! eventually). So acting like it's some scary foreign thing needs to die. And because of the increasing tech availability & the fact that people can now have had them long enough to be seasoned with them, we're also probably going to end up with more skilled touchscreen players breaking into the top ranks. If you could accept tablets, you will learn to accept touchscreens too. Calm down.

Tablet and Mouse players don't have a significant gap unlike touchscreen. Touchscreen is considerably different in terms of aim, of course. That's why not too many was complaining when it started getting widespread.

NepNep- wrote:

Tablet and Mouse players don't have a significant gap unlike touchscreen. Touchscreen is considerably different in terms of aim, of course. That's why not too many was complaining when it started getting widespread.

Nah, the styles do have a pretty big gap, comparable to the gap between touchscreen & tablet. Play with all three one after the other. The gap becomes less obvious with practice but it still exists (this applies to anything, even outside osu!, like someone on crutches can learn to run just as fast as someone without, but it still takes more effort in the long term).

NepNep- wrote:

[quote=iridi]I started playing osu! with a graphics tablet, then switched to touchscreen. I currently play using a stylus on a Surface Book (i.e. a single input point) & no keyboard. I've used both a digitizing screen (the cursor follows your hand when you hover, so it looks the same as a tablet play as long as you don't pull your hand back too far) and non-digitizing (the cursor can't move unless you click, so it looks like the cursor is jumping around erratically). I've tried using a mouse in the past as well.

If you try switching from a mouse to a tablet to a touchscreen, you'd realize that there's a similar gap in ability between mouse & tablet as there is between tablet & touchscreen. Tablet & touchscreen are both free-moving, frictionless points for jumps (and if you're using a digitized touchscreen or a tablet, both with keyboard, it's frictionless for EVERYTHING, while non-digitized touchscreens are slowed by friction for sliders); mouses are not. This means both tablet & touchscreen have a massive advantage over mouse for jumps, or honestly for ANY element since fine motor control is way better on both. Tablets with touch capability can even use multiple points of contact if you set them up correctly, making the only difference between them and an actual touchscreen the fact that there's a visual disconnect (which you get over with practice). One of the best things you can do for accuracy is ditch mouse and go for a tablet, and there are significantly more tablet players in the upper ranks than mouse players because of this. Yet does anyone call for tablet to be ranked separate from mouse? No, because everyone is already so familiar with that technology that it's just an accepted fact of life by now.

Accuracy, while easier on touchscreen, is also not entirely sidestepped (that's why if you look at most touchscreen players profiles, even if they mostly avoid stream maps--which are near-impossible without keyboard--there's not some massive boost in their accuracy rating compared to their tablet-using counterparts). You're still moving to click something on time.
There's also a sizing issue--if you're using a touchscreen laptop or standalone monitor, NOT a phone or tiny tablet, they're way bigger than almost every graphics tablet. I have a medium Wacom Intuos P&T and that thing has like 1/2 the usable area of the smallest touchscreen I've used (Microsoft Surface Book) and an even bigger difference compared to the larger ones I've used (HP Envy x360, Toshiba Satellite Radius). The time it takes to jump is longer than for a tablet and while you can window osu! to combat this, that adds to another issue: blind spots. Your hand covers part of the screen, especially if you're playing in a smaller window or on maps with tinier notes, something completely irrelevant to tablet users.

We're likely to see more people with touchscreens in the near feature as the technology becomes more widespread and less expensive (and the fact that there will be ipad/tablet versions of osu! eventually). So acting like it's some scary foreign thing needs to die. And because of the increasing tech availability & the fact that people can now have had them long enough to be seasoned with them, we're also probably going to end up with more skilled touchscreen players breaking into the top ranks. If you could accept tablets, you will learn to accept touchscreens too. Calm down.

your experience is using a touchscreen as a 1:1 input device...

Coriolis wrote:

get a life and stop being mad over a circle clicking game lmao

a post full of wisdom oWo

NepNep- wrote:

Since jesse just left, I'll be the one trying to reply.

Grim Rapper wrote:

SapphireGhost and Bonk (despite their inactivity) shows that touchscreen CAN have accuracy, it's the preference that makes it a technical limitation, do you still want to ban them based of their playstyle?

No need to mention the accuracy touchscreen players, The people here are annoyed at the 76% 900pp after all. We were never mad at them to begin with apart from people hating touchscreen in general.
Why I'm seen many complaints saying "BAN CHEATSCREEN" then? Also why in the previous post jesse said that the touchscreen is the issue

Grim Rapper wrote:

Why you're targeting me when I'm targeting about the controversial play? I'm talking about why when the controversial play received so many pp with that glaring accuracy, when comparing to YOUR insane streams play on Native Faith get less pp? or any straining streams play at all?

Assuming his "You do" is not a directed to you, but implying "You do" in a general perspective.
Jesse is correct and accuracy does punish pp, obviously. But you're right and accuracy does no punish you enough when you get it too low.
Fair Enough

Grim Rapper wrote:

but let's blame the touchscreen player instead, we know the pp system is FLAWED, but people enjoying it right? and A LOT OF mapper enjoy ABUSING it by making EVERYTHING pp-based so why not, RIGHT?

The people completely blind are flaming the touchscreen players, When it's the pp system being flawed, and touchscreen being vastly different. I can understand people being mad since a playstyle being very different claiming the top play. It isn't about pp, The very fact he was able to fc it 3 times in one hour, is also a reason. It's not just about the pp sytsem being flawed, It's touchscreen being largely different from other playstyles, and that difference is what enrages other players.
Why you're questioning the consistency of a player?

Grim Rapper wrote:

Still didn't answer anything imo, but it was better than ignorance
Cheers, No hard feelings

That's very cocky of you. I believe you didn't completely answer all his statements.
My statement in here isn't saying that "hah, you're wrong, try again" but simply saying that "even though your answer imo didn't really answer my question, please don't take this personal. We can agree to disagree"
Streams argument: If streams "can be difficult to aim", why it rewarded less than pure note-to-note jump then? and why Cry Thunder (that objectively the hardest stream jump today imo) only gave 507pp FC with 99.46% acc despite the length being 5:12 minutes? It's the logic of "this is an aim game" that makes the pp system broken in the first place

My Argument is still stands: This is a rhythm game, and that's the community's not getting. Unbalance in competitive reason cannot be justified when the factor of the "balance" is consider broken by the majority of the people
Cheers. No Hard Feelings

Please don't make the old No Video mod scores get counted as touchscreen scores :/ currently they are

Speed of cursor movement = no
"Cursor never appeared between two circles, instead only being on them" = yes

Grim Rapper wrote:

Why I'm seen many complaints saying "BAN CHEATSCREEN" then? Also why in the previous post jesse said that the touchscreen is the issue

It doesn't matter that they can only play a select few maps if the maps they play are considered "overweight" to many players.

Grim Rapper wrote:

Why you're questioning the consistency of a player?

My point is on the touchscreen, and you're questioning that instead?
I used his consistency as a way of solidifying my point more. Despite that, I have other points that don't question his a touchscreen player. Am I expecting your thoughts on the rest?

Grim Rapper wrote:

My statement in here isn't saying that "hah, you're wrong, try again" but simply saying that "even though your answer imo didn't really answer my question, please don't take this personal. We can agree to disagree"

Well, At least something was cleared up. It sounded pretty rude so I was pretty annoyed. Sorry about that.

Grim Rapper wrote:

If streams "can be difficult to aim", why it rewarded less than pure note-to-note jump then? and why Cry Thunder (that objectively the hardest stream jump today imo) only gave 507pp FC with 99.46% acc despite the length being 5:12 minutes? It's the logic of "this is an aim game" that makes the pp system broken in the first place

I do admit that part of my statement is flawed, but because you haven't given a counter-argument on the rest of it, The rest still stands.
Stating "There are streams" and "You can use Sidekicks" are not valid for me.

Grim Rapper wrote:

Unbalance in competitive reason cannot be justified when the factor of the "balance" is consider broken by the majority of the people

The very fact it's a competitive game makes unbalance a major problem. We don't want to get passed by someone using a playstyle that is considered broken to you. The only reason why Peppy is acting is because of the major unrest in the people that are upset.





Now that i'm on my PC, my posts are nice and colorful ~

Mouse players - please ban tablet players, abosolute positioning and lack of movement drift is too big advantage
Tablet players - please ban touchscreen...
sooo, lets roll more

60hz monitor users - pls ban 144hz users, more than twice refresh rate is way too big advantage
rubberdome keyboard users - ban mech keyboard users, it makes game easier
intel HD users - please ban dedicated gpu users since they get way better fps

and go on....

Still, discussion is pretty pointless. Everyone see problem in playstyle but nobody even think WHAT and WHO gave it an advantage.
Yeah, typical crybaby thinking... more like hypocrisy - I will see only one side of medal but other one which is even more dirty doesn't matter to me as much as I can use it for yourself. Stink from one shit but be against another?



@Edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/commen ... a_mod_now/

Well fuck, as in every game, crying community always wins over proper digging deep into problem and considering all variables.
GL TS players, you got fucked up, I tried to defend you as someone who also played on TS and know the pain of getting used / input lag problems etc.

Firstly, I'm sorry if what I am about say is ignorant. Also this has nothing to do with toucscreen; that does need change IMO.

People have been going off topic on how its stupid that often easier maps give more pp than more technically difficult maps.

In my opinion, if anyone has the option to exploit the easier pp maps, why should these maps get nerfed anyway? It's not like anyone has reached the point of completely mastering pp maps to the point where technical map pp and the pp system as a whole needs a rework.

I fully agree that its stupid that potentially better players are lower pp than others, but nothing is stopping them from farming those maps (again, I realise the touchscreen advantage and agree that that has to be addressed).

The whole purpose I'm here is to try and prove that the touchscreen play he got was not deserved, and was overweight. In no way am I saying that touchscreen should be banned. I'm arguing about my point because as a person, I believe that reforms are needed. Sure, I'm also joining a few that I just felt like replying to.

Even if the touchscreen is a pain of getting used to, With it's input lags, etc, but even with those disadvantages taking the top play? You should think about the long-term more than the short-term.



I'm most likely seen as the guy that's "wrong" to most people here, The guy that's crying like a baby according to [ Taiga ], and I completely understand that. Even if you refuse to acknowledge my point, I understand that. I'm being very hostile in this post, and I'm fine with that. If some people get my point, then that's enough for me. They don't have to agree completely.

I've seen some news about osu! lazer being playable on phone, if that's the case, can't you just merge touchscreen leaderboards with phone leaderboards since they pretty much have the same gameplay mechanics

Not sure where to best post this, but in regards to the proposed pp deflation, I would much prefer touchscreen plays being unranked, and am strongly against any sort of percentage or "aim component" reduction; if all touchscreen plays are going to be labeled with a mod as broken and less impressive (which at this point is more than fair), then players should not be punished by having their top rankings clogged up with "unimpressive" plays, just because they decided to try out a certain playstyle back in a time where the extent of that playstyle's imbalance was not as widely known.

Unless we are looking at pp reductions of at least 70-80% (at which point you might as well unrank anyways), what you are going to end up with is a bunch of defunct profiles with highest pp plays all stuck being touchscreen, making it extremely hard for these players to enjoy the game when branching out into other playstyles (which they would probably prefer doing, considering that at that point touchscreen will have been officially classified as unfair).

I can also personally attest to the fact that the impressiveness of many plays on touchscreen is at best weakly correlated to their pp values, and that all 600+ pp scores on touchscreen are set on mostly uninteresting maps, that, while requiring a high level of competency, are likely not at the boundaries of what most top touch players consider very impressive (although I can't claim to speak for everyone here); having these plays be the "most" preserved under pp reduction makes no sense, and indeed any attempt at balance purely through haphazard manipulation of numbers (such as aim reduction) is unlikely to leave anyone satisfied.

Such attempts should only be considered more thoroughly if/when touchscreen is integrated separately into osu!lazer; until then, unranking the plays in terms of pp is really the only solution that makes any sense.

freedomdiver wrote:

I can also personally attest to the fact that the impressiveness of many plays on touchscreen is at best weakly correlated to their pp values, and that all 600+ pp scores on touchscreen are set on mostly uninteresting maps, that, while requiring a high level of competency, are likely not at the boundaries of what most top touch players consider very impressive (although I can't claim to speak for everyone here); having these plays be the "most" preserved under pp reduction makes no sense, and indeed any attempt at balance purely through haphazard manipulation of numbers (such as aim reduction) is unlikely to leave anyone satisfied.

Such attempts should only be considered more thoroughly if/when touchscreen is integrated separately into osu!lazer; until then, unranking the plays in terms of pp is really the only solution that makes any sense.

I agree that the skill required for many touchscreen plays isn't very accurately represented by pp value. Some of my 300pp plays were just as difficult for me as some of my 500pp plays. I'm pretty split as to what the temporary solution should be, but I definitely agree that a long term solution in lazer would be best.

I can think of several ideas as to what can make a touchscreen play difficult and how they should be weighted, but at the same time I'm not the most qualified person to judge that and I don't know what priority a separate pp system for touchscreen would have instead of first improving the flawed system used for non-touchscreen players.

freedomdiver wrote:

Not sure where to best post this, but in regards to the proposed pp deflation, I would much prefer touchscreen plays being unranked, and am strongly against any sort of percentage or "aim component" reduction; if all touchscreen plays are going to be labeled with a mod as broken and less impressive (which at this point is more than fair), then players should not be punished by having their top rankings clogged up with "unimpressive" plays, just because they decided to try out a certain playstyle back in a time where the extent of that playstyle's imbalance was not as widely known.

Unless we are looking at pp reductions of at least 70-80% (at which point you might as well unrank anyways), what you are going to end up with is a bunch of defunct profiles with highest pp plays all stuck being touchscreen, making it extremely hard for these players to enjoy the game when branching out into other playstyles (which they would probably prefer doing, considering that at that point touchscreen will have been officially classified as unfair).

I can also personally attest to the fact that the impressiveness of many plays on touchscreen is at best weakly correlated to their pp values, and that all 600+ pp scores on touchscreen are set on mostly uninteresting maps, that, while requiring a high level of competency, are likely not at the boundaries of what most top touch players consider very impressive (although I can't claim to speak for everyone here); having these plays be the "most" preserved under pp reduction makes no sense, and indeed any attempt at balance purely through haphazard manipulation of numbers (such as aim reduction) is unlikely to leave anyone satisfied.

Such attempts should only be considered more thoroughly if/when touchscreen is integrated separately into osu!lazer; until then, unranking the plays in terms of pp is really the only solution that makes any sense.

In my opinion, I wouldn't just make touchscreen players unranked. That's just a bit cruel. Yes, touchscreen is considered unfair to a significant amount of people, but that is not reason to unrank it. Even if peppy also says so.

I'd rather not get banned from the leaderboards just because the community despises what I use.

But I doubt heavily that a complete solution will be found. The most simple solution would be to just separate the touchscreen from the rest of std, which doesn't sound like a good idea if you dive deeper into the touchscreen players.

Honestly, I don't have any issues with touchscreen players reaching the top 10 on "our tablet/mouse leaderboards". What I do have a problem with however is the accuracy achieved by the end of the play. Accuracy should play a huge part into someone's final score. Praise those who manage to get S and SS plays whilst maintaining their combo rather than low accuracy plays with high/full combos and we'd probably be set.

I think it would be unfair to segregate touchscreen players into their own leaderboards because that would "technically" be just like creating a new gamemode; and that would prove to take, like peppy said, weeks to setup (the databases, bancho etc) AND it wouldn't even be worth it as the touchscreen community is small.

Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but I think for the advantage touchscreen players have over tablet/mouse.. they should at least be getting the same accuracy.

TL;DR: Praise/reward players for higher accuracy/high combo vs low accuracy/low combo. How you do that? I'm not a programmer, figure it out /shrug

NepNep- wrote:

In my opinion, I wouldn't just make touchscreen players unranked. That's just a bit cruel. Yes, touchscreen is considered unfair to a significant amount of people, but that is not reason to unrank it. Even if peppy also says so.

No, something being considered unfair by a significant portion of the playerbase is a perfectly legitimate reason to unrank it. If you are still trying to advocate for touch players not being affected in any way at all, you are quite a few steps behind in the argument; at this point it is already a given that something will be done exclusively to disadvantage touch players, and the creation of this thread was not to discuss whether that should happen, but only possibly how to enact it.

NepNep- wrote:

I'd rather not get banned from the leaderboards just because the community despises what I use.

That's... somewhat selfish of you, don't you think. If you don't care about your presence on community leaderboards, you shouldn't be concerned about playing for no pp; otherwise, you should recognize that it is the communities' and developers' right to agree on what is fair for those leaderboards, and it shouldn't be up to what you personally prefer, as only one member of a very large community, especially when most of that community disagrees with you (as you yourself claim is the case here).

NepNep- wrote:

But I doubt heavily that a complete solution will be found. The most simple solution would be to just separate the touchscreen from the rest of std, which doesn't sound like a good idea if you dive deeper into the touchscreen players.

What exactly do you mean by this? I personally would have no issue with this, as it would return competition to level ground among each playstyle. Either way, peppy has explicitly stated that the amount of infrastructure required for this basically rules it out as a short term solution.


@Ryouku you should probably reread some of jesse1412's comments earlier in this thread, I think he does a pretty good job of explaining how accuracy really isn't at all relevant to the touchscreen issue, pp balancing should be saved for discussions elsewhere.

freedomdiver wrote:

No, something being considered unfair by a significant portion of the playerbase is a perfectly legitimate reason to unrank it. If you are still trying to advocate for touch players not being affected in any way at all, you are quite a few steps behind in the argument; at this point it is already a given that something will be done exclusively to disadvantage touch players, and the creation of this thread was not to discuss whether that should happen, but only possibly how to enact it.

I'm talking in a more humane perspective. I merely wanted to give my opinion on it. Hence the "in my opinion"

freedomdiver wrote:

That's... somewhat selfish of you, don't you think. If you don't care about your presence on community leaderboards, you shouldn't be concerned about playing for no pp; otherwise, you should recognize that it is the communities' and developers' right to agree on what is fair for those leaderboards, and it shouldn't be up to what you personally prefer, as only one member of a very large community, especially when most of that community disagrees with you (as you yourself claim is the case here).

It is selfish. Not to just a touchscreen player, but for the most of the touchscreen community. I find it cruel if peppy just outright "bans" hundreds, or thousands of players just because they used touchscreen.

freedomdiver wrote:

What exactly do you mean by this? I personally would have no issue with this, as it would return competition to level ground among each playstyle. Either way, peppy has explicitly stated that the amount of infrastructure required for this basically rules it out as a short term solution.

If peppy does mange to get touchscreen in a different leaderboard, what then? The touchscreen community is extremely sparse compared to the rest. It wouldn't be that "fun" to some, or maybe most of the touchscreen players if it gets separated.



Most are merely just my opinion on the "What if this happened". I have no right to say which is the right decision.

Can we make an entirely new game mode?

Something like osu! touch, with a separate leaderboard from everyone else. You can probably include phone and tablet players of osu! lazer on here, too, maybe?This is still kind of dipping into the "huge infrastructure change" option, I think.

osu! touch could be catered specifically towards touchscreen players, with allowing multiple inputs at once, kind of like the Love Live mobile game. Except, instead of all the circles sitting around and you waiting for the notes to approach, it plays like osu! standard. Except, it has up to 10 things to press at once. You could even have different types of notes (flick notes, hold notes, etc) to make it more interesting.

The only way for this to work, though, is to make osu! touch feel much more rewarding to play for touchscreen players than osu! standard. If no one cares about it and no one thinks it's worth playing, then this option just becomes a waste of time. But that's the only way I can really think of dealing with this issue (right now, anyways), by making a game mode that people want to play that has an inherently different input setup so that no one can complain about touchscreens having an advantage.

citremi wrote:

Can we make an entirely new game mode?

Something like osu! touch, with a separate leaderboard from everyone else. You can probably include phone and tablet players of osu! lazer on here, too, maybe?This is still kind of dipping into the "huge infrastructure change" option, I think.

osu! touch could be catered specifically towards touchscreen players, with allowing multiple inputs at once, kind of like the Love Live mobile game. Except, instead of all the circles sitting around and you waiting for the notes to approach, it plays like osu! standard. Except, it has up to 10 things to press at once. You could even have different types of notes (flick notes, hold notes, etc) to make it more interesting.

The only way for this to work, though, is to make osu! touch feel much more rewarding to play for touchscreen players than osu! standard. If no one cares about it and no one thinks it's worth playing, then this option just becomes a waste of time. But that's the only way I can really think of dealing with this issue (right now, anyways), by making a game mode that people want to play that has an inherently different input setup so that no one can complain about touchscreens having an advantage.

Making a new gamemode has been the most suggested thing here. It's one of the most simple solutions people can think of, but there are multiple downsides to it. With one of the biggest being that the Touchscreen community is really small. Maybe a few thousand even plays touchscreen. Imagine how "boring" the leaderboards would be? The gap in ranks between some people would be pretty big. There is also the issue of multiplayer. I don't think many people would be on it. Maps can just be taken from standard, but most would be unplayed due to touchscreen disadvantages.

Just a summary of imo how we got to touchscreens being a problem:

ScoreV1 was based around combo

Most combo breaks occur due to a lack of aim or aim & tapping not being correctly coordinated

PP system to not be completely aggravating had to go with a combo based scoring system otherwise low PP scores would replace high more often then they do even now.

Since combo is primarily about aim and missing meant almost no PP, aim was rated extremely highly in the PP system

Players realizing that the fastest way to high ranks was to focus aim improvement

Mappers realizing people preferred aim type maps (because of PP) started mapping lots of jump heavy maps

Touchscreen input device trivializes aim

Due to large quantity and High SR of pure jump maps with the combo/aim PP system, touchscreen is OP.

Solution:
Make Combo less important, ScoreV1 choosing combo as the metric was really the start of all the problems.

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

Just a summary of imo how we got to touchscreens being a problem:

ScoreV1 was based around combo

Most combo breaks occur due to a lack of aim or aim & tapping not being correctly coordinated

PP system to not be completely aggravating had to go with a combo based scoring system otherwise low PP scores would replace high more often then they do even now.

Since combo is primarily about aim and missing meant almost no PP, aim was rated extremely highly in the PP system

Players realizing that the fastest way to high ranks was to focus aim improvement

Mappers realizing people preferred aim type maps (because of PP) started mapping lots of jump heavy maps

Touchscreen input device trivializes aim

Due to large quantity and High SR of pure jump maps with the combo/aim PP system, touchscreen is OP.

Solution:
Make Combo less important, ScoreV1 choosing combo as the metric was really the start of all the problems.

You should really be better at discerning the problem from it's context here. You can draw a "cause and effect" relation back to basically anything, such as the implementation of the ranking system, the release of the game, the invention of touchscreens, the creation of the solar system, etc.

What you then have to do is recognize which of these are actual inherent issues; there's nothing wrong with the game being centered around combo and aim, that's basically how things should work (and any other pp balancing to reward rhythm more doesn't conflict with this idea either), whereas there is an actual issue in having touchscreen make the game much easier to play in certain contexts, regardless of how much pp any of these plays are worth

i dont know, wrote this someone before(i readed a 5 pages of this post and im kinda bored), but some people here want a separate leaderbords for touchscreen players and "normal" players, but why no one complains about the mouse players and tablet players, why people doesnt want a separate leaderboards for them?

lpavbak wrote:

i dont know, wrote this someone before(i readed a 5 pages of this post and im kinda bored), but some people here want a separate leaderbords for touchscreen players and "normal" players, but why no one complains about the mouse players and tablet players, why people doesnt want a separate leaderboards for them?

and how would an automated system be able to tell? this is much easier to take advantage of

Cant we just have moderators monitoring sketchy game play and then they can make the decision.

HelltraX wrote:

Cant we just have moderators monitoring sketchy game play and then they can make the decision.

what are you on about

itsamemarioo wrote:

lpavbak wrote:

i dont know, wrote this someone before(i readed a 5 pages of this post and im kinda bored), but some people here want a separate leaderbords for touchscreen players and "normal" players, but why no one complains about the mouse players and tablet players, why people doesnt want a separate leaderboards for them?

and how would an automated system be able to tell? this is much easier to take advantage of

easily, because touchscreen players cursor teleport.

lpavbak wrote:

easily, because touchscreen players cursor teleport.

I was referring to separate leaderboards for mouse and tablet. Separate leaderboards for touchscreen seems like a pretty good long-term solution to me and it's easy to see how an automated system could tell the difference

itsamemarioo wrote:

lpavbak wrote:

easily, because touchscreen players cursor teleport.

I was referring to separate leaderboards for mouse and tablet. Separate leaderboards for touchscreen seems like a pretty good long-term solution to me and it's easy to see how an automated system could tell the difference

unnecessary, both are 1:1 inputs

lpavbak wrote:

i dont know, wrote this someone before(i readed a 5 pages of this post and im kinda bored), but some people here want a separate leaderbords for touchscreen players and "normal" players, but why no one complains about the mouse players and tablet players, why people doesnt want a separate leaderboards for them?

because mouse and tablet are essentially the same...

*reads 9999 posts calling for new touchscreen-only mode*
osu!stream for PC when

The main issue I think about touch is one not everyone seems to understand, or fully comprahend.

The reason touch is so overpowered is that it allows for multiple inputs. The star and pp system is built over the idea that each object is aimed, and touch allows users to use two or more fingers to input with. This is why Emilia is not an example of "touch" with his 1 pen, although you could argue his playstyle makes it easier for him to play.

This map ( https://osu.ppy.sh/s/575873 ) is an extreme example of what happens when aim is calculated in this incorrect way. This map with two hands is essentially a stack map with annoying music. While most maps are definatly not like this, due to pp mapping (which isn't the problem) there are many maps where using two hands on the only jumps and no streams is piss easy. Take haitai's ending for the perfect example here.

OFC making a new algorithm taking this into account may be too difficult to implament, which is why just nerfing aim stars may be enough. If touch becomes more popular maybe this may be of importance, but for now it is good enough.

itsamemarioo wrote:

lpavbak wrote:

i dont know, wrote this someone before(i readed a 5 pages of this post and im kinda bored), but some people here want a separate leaderbords for touchscreen players and "normal" players, but why no one complains about the mouse players and tablet players, why people doesnt want a separate leaderboards for them?

and how would an automated system be able to tell? this is much easier to take advantage of

Automated systems could tell mouse and tablet apart by looking at how "shaky" the cursor is, or for a more accurate approach, checking what input is used. Tablets and touchscreen are both read differently by the OS compared to mouse and touchpad. They're handled by Windows Ink instead of the normal drivers, which is also why some programs (esp. in-browser apps) will not respond to touch or tablet input but work fine with a mouse.

xxjesus1412fanx wrote:

easily, because touchscreen players cursor teleport.

Not always. If you have a touchscreen with a digitzer ("hover" capabilities) and play with the stylus, there isn't teleportation unless you pull too far away from the screen. You can potentially watch replays of it and be unable to tell if the person is using touchscreen or tablet as the cursor will move the same way.

------------

New TS mod affects not only multi-input players but single-input non-digitizer touchscreen players because they have the same teleportation thing going on. That's unfair and they don't deserve to the weighted the same. I don't think that's even technologically possible, but 1:1 is 1:1 no matter if it's touch, tablet, mouse, or something else so I'm still going to complain lol.
Almost all of the complaints here focus solely on people who play with 10:1 (multiple fingers) input. And no offense but most of y'all seem to be fear mongering without ever trying a touchscreen which is kind of ignorant :/

Why not finish Osu!droid and make a leaderboard for them and touchscreen players.They are using same input(touchscreen) and it would be a fairplay. Osu!droid would give chance for "Mobile MasterRace" to play. This solution isnt cheap ,but is fair for everyone.

So the salt as far as I can see it is ppl feeling treated unfair in a inherently unfair system.

pp is comparing a farmable score that has been farmable ever since on an unfair field aka mods. The heart of competition lies in directly comparing yourself vs another player. So a player with all the "cheesy dirty jump pp" will get his ass handed by a player that is just better regardless of any pp and its origin.

I think its a good thing that ppl are looking into the issue the community has but on a sidenote the community needs to get their stuff straight.

If you want real solid score that has a meaning in a competitive sense you need a score that is based around competition also known as elo like in chess and other good games. The introduction of mods just adds to the confusion since HR cant be compared to HD or vice versa neither can be done to DT to HR to HD or whatever you get the gist. Not in a competitive sense. We aint letting hammer throwers compete against spear throwers in the olympics either eh ?

You'd need a separate elo for every mod so HR ppl competing vs HR ppl and HDHR vs HDHR etc.

My point is that pp doesnt matter and never was a good measure for anything. Its just a little something to keep up the motivation if anything.

So the real question is to the community. What do they want ? Do they just want to compare uncompareable things and feel gud about their sub 1k or do they actually want to compete against each other ? Because "fixing pp" in a competitive sense is only possible if each mod and combination has their own ranking and this probably split up even further by different input devices. By the point you actually reached a really "fair" ground for everybody each ranking list would field only a couple thousand players and some rare mods or combinations even less.

TL:DR; What is it you people really want ? If you want a meaningful competition pp as of now is the wrong system for you anyway.

inb4: but pp can compare no mod to HR and or DT in a meaningful way. Yes it does but then its not a competition anymore. not a fair one that is.

okay, in my opinion, touchscreen are just another way to play like any other, because, I just lack someone can beat 1000+ pp and solve nerf the use of the mouse in the game.
Sorry for this awful English.

the only way is to create a unique touchscreen ranking server that works between touchscreen devices that will support Smartphones and Touchscreen PCs and block the use of the touchscreen on the conventional server.

ppv2.5 hotfix:
touchscreen is now nerfed
lol

How do you even play w/ only touchscreen? I tried but it only would for keyboard I can only play other osu! games but not osu

Honeybun08 wrote:

How do you even play w/ only touchscreen? I tried but it only would for keyboard I can only play other osu! games but not osu

I'm sorry i don't understand. Do you have an issue with your touchscreen or you're just not capable of playing osu! using only the touchscreen? If you have any issues you can ask here.