Shouldn't it be possible to reduce the aim pp awarded when the cursor teleports?
This still isn't a better argument in my opinion. Freedom dive hdhr gives less pp despite having more balanced requirements because those requirements aren't as hard (subjectively) as the individual aspect of aim in haitai. Balanced maps maybe could be slightly buffed, but that's just shifting the problem further down the line. Eventually there's going to be a cut off point where balanced maps aren't anywhere near as hard as the imbalanced map, there's no solution to that.hi-mei wrote:
you have some misconception of what i meant there, we have a clear comparison of maps with kinda same star rating, right? so lets say, we have these two freedom dive hdhr and haitai 3mod. the first one demads all the possible abilities to get an FC (reading, speed, aim, stamina, memorization), its 4 min and u get a 800 pp for it.
the second one is ONLY focused on ONE aspect of the game, which is aim, and its literally x12 times shorter than freedom dive map.
x12 times, and its only requires one ability to have (FD requires at least 5).
so even if the HAITAI was 4 min with the same jumps all over the table, it would still be less valuable than FD score, cause it requires less anyway.
I know it sounds kinda strange but... Ill never be ok with the thought that less effort gives more rewards. its just not how life works.
Pressing pause button and swapping peripherals isn't hard at all, let alone impossible.hi-mei wrote:
Cmon, we both know its impossible.
You can't blame the map like that. What if a song literally can't support 1/4 notes without overmapping? What if the song is also short? Is that the maps fault? No of course it isn't. Are you going to blame the song then? Granat fits into both categories comfortably, as an example. The issue isn't the maps, it's touchscreen being incomparable to tablet/mouse.hi-mei wrote:
I still disagree, if the system would work normally, there wouldnt be a 20 sec 900 pp scores on a map that was made in literally 30-40 mins with no effort at all. People are ranking short maps because of the score in first place, not cause its fun and shit.
Talking about touchscreens again in particular, its just allows AIM-aspect to dissapear from the actual diffuculty, but it struggles with other aspects of the gameplay (reading, streaming etc).
Nerfing the touchscreen will not resolve the issue, the issue is more in the map, in my opinion.
hi-mei wrote:
Cmon, we both know its impossible.
hi-mei wrote:
I still disagree, if the system would work normally, there wouldnt be a 20 sec 900 pp scores on a map that was made in literally 30-40 mins with no effort at all. People are ranking short maps because of the score in first place, not cause its fun and shit.
jesse1412 wrote:
This still isn't a better argument in my opinion. Freedom dive hdhr gives less pp despite having more balanced requirements because those requirements aren't as hard (subjectively) as the individual aspect of aim in haitai.
hi-mei wrote:
you have some misconception of what i meant there, we have a clear comparison of maps with kinda same star rating, right? so lets say, we have these two freedom dive hdhr and haitai 3mod. the first one demands all the possible abilities to get an FC (reading, speed, aim, stamina, memorization), its 4 min and u get a 800 pp for it.
the second one is ONLY focused on ONE aspect of the game, which is aim, and its literally x12 times shorter than freedom dive map.
x12 times, and its only requires one ability to have (FD requires at least 5).
so even if the HAITAI was 4 min with the same jumps all over the table, it would still be less valuable than FD score, cause it requires less anyway.
I know it sounds kinda strange but... Ill never be ok with the thought that less effort gives more rewards. its just not how life works.
How do you imagine that?jesse1412 wrote:
Pressing pause button and swapping peripherals isn't hard at all, let alone impossible.
Man, its been literally 3 years since this shit started.Xytox wrote:
Probably the entire community agrees upon the fact that short, super aim-heavy maps are overweight. But this is not the issue brought up in this thread.
pp works by giving it the achieved score and difficulty of the map. It knows nothing about the specifics of the replay and might require infrastructure change to implement.Canadian wrote:
Shouldn't it be possible to reduce the aim pp awarded when the cursor teleports?
I'm personally of the same opinion that the PP algorithmn needs to award stamina more than it currently does. While longer maps do give more PP it becomes extremely hard to get any PP from them as 1 miss in the middle of the map and you don't get anything for it. If the song is 5 minutes long it is much more challenging to stay consistent for 5 minutes than it is to stay consistent for 30 seconds. Easiest solution to this would be to simply make combo irrelevant and have PP calculated from Accuracy and Number of misses. You'd still likely miss more times on a long map than a short map but the length bonus would counteract the number of misses and make long maps more viable.hi-mei wrote:
I think its a long awaited time for a meticulous review of how PP score is calculated.
There is a very tangible difference between 4 min 7* HDHR map fc and 20 seconds HDHRDT haitai FC.
This thing HAS to be addressed at some point, I truly hope that the solution will be finded and we gonna shift from TV-size farming meta to something a bit different.
I am not a math-guru, but I can say that the formula of PP calculation is struggling when it comes to sliders.
Maps with lots of sliders gives less score, doesnt matter if the actual difficulty is higher than the common TV-size anime maps.
So the main thing that comes to my mind is that PP system doesnt care how you hit sliders, how much input sliders are having on the player during the gameplay, how it affects reading and such.
But for temporary solution I can suggest to nerf how much PP is coming from short maps, it is just not ok that 20 second map gives 900 pp. Its just wrong.
The problem with osu! is that it introduces an aspect other rhythm games don't have. If you don't force an FC out of a player for performance points, you'll definitely see mapping and playstyles evolve into a new kind of meta where intentionally missing one or two really hard jumps for the sake of comfortably hitting the rest is common, ruining the intended way to play the game to begin with.Edgar_Figaro wrote:
I just think the problem with the PP and Score system has to do with combo based scoring. 1 miss should be 1 miss no matter where it occurs
This is the best solution I've heard so far. In fact, I think it's more than "best", I think it's a good solution. Except I don't know how to implement it. It probably takes more work than a temporary solution can afford... Though I personally don't mind living with no solution until the proper solution is rolled out.abraker wrote:
pp works by giving it the achieved score and difficulty of the map. It knows nothing about the specifics of the replay and might require infrastructure change to implement.Canadian wrote:
Shouldn't it be possible to reduce the aim pp awarded when the cursor teleports?
Other than that, it sounds like a plausible solution.
I haven't heard this argument mentioned anywhere, so I thought I should mention it (even though this thread should primarily be about TS). I like the current system of awarding score for higher combo, where you get a higher score if you hold a combo but miss at the end rather than the middle. The reason I like it is that it adds suspense to the game. As an example: I love watching tournaments, but I think the tournaments would be less fun to watch if suspense of the type "can rrtyui maintain his combo to the end of Image Material or not?!" was lessened. : )Edgar_Figaro wrote:
I just think the problem with the PP and Score system has to do with combo based scoring. 1 miss should be 1 miss no matter where it occurs
peppy wrote:
Touchscreens greatly reduce the difficulty of aim as players using them now have up to 10 localised input points (their fingers) which both need to travel less distance and can preempt where then need to be for future hit objects.
peppy wrote:
A proposed solution of a touchscreen mod which devalues touchscreen pp values across the board may be something we apply as a stop-gap measure, for instance.
in my opinion, the best way to fix this is to change PP system, having it rewarding different skills independently, like aim/speed/accuracy/reading/stamina and others skills i may forgot, something like how PP+ does (with better wheighting of course, the actual one isn't really accurate imo), so mappers that absolutely want their map being played wouldn't be forced to focus on aim focused map (because actually the game values aim more than anything else), that would actually add diversity on mapping (even if it'll end up the same as the actual mapping meta, they'll try to do the easiest overwheigted maps in X skill, but since it'll add more diversity i think it's still a good thing).hi-mei wrote:
It affects players to focus on short low effort maps, also it affects mappers who wants their maps to be played, so they are finding low effort short maps are way more profitable to spend their time on than making long maps with variety of stuff in it.
then FCing a map wouldn't be as rewarding as it is now, if you miss on a hard part or a slow part would mean exactly the same. FCing is still something that has do be rewarded, osu! combo wheighting is still a unique part of the game (as any other rhythm game doesn't use), making it important is what is making osu! unique imo. It makes you really wants to FC maps, and is rewarding you.Edgar_Figaro wrote:
I just think the problem with the PP and Score system has to do with combo based scoring. 1 miss should be 1 miss no matter where it occurs
Yeah, because Rafis totally can't do anything other than TV-size DT maps.hi-mei wrote:
No matter how you set the score, it is just makes people who has one strong ability to be higher (lets say Rafis) than people with other strong ability (lets say -GN).
No one is complaining about freedomdiver, trying to ban them or saying that touchscreen players are doing anything wrong. The issue is simply that the ranking system is designed with the purpose of awarding rank to players who can do the most difficult things, and using touchscreen makes it much easier (unfairly so) to attain rank on this system. Therefore the system is failing its purpose, and this thread here to find a way make it better. The blame goes to Reality for making it hard to create a good PP system, not to TS players for having fun playing their style and trying to do their best. : )ZethZ161 wrote:
People really are contradicting themselves. When the last highest pp record was set, people are awaiting for new records. But now, when a new record is set, people complaning about it because it is set by a touchscreen player. If new records is what everyone wants, why they complaint about it when the score is there, just because it is a touchscreen play? It is acheived from a legit play and not just aimbot or anything like that, so I don't see any problems with it.
Look, I don't care any of this bullshit, partly because I don't play STD, another part is he didn't do anything wrong or cheated the scores. I know it is basically unreacheable with normal gameplay styles like tab or mouse, but who cares? If the score is set without cheating, then it is set. There's no reason for anyone to ban the score just because "you're a touchscreen player".
So, just stop the drama from this score, and just accept the fact that freedomdiver set a 900 pp scores with a touchscreen. If you can't accept the score, go for it. Rant anyway you want. Complain and hate him as much as you want to. That will help nothing.
Who knows, maybe someday, someone, will acheive a 900 pp play with a tablet or mouse? Time will tell. Just like Cookiezi's 817 pp record on Remote Control +HDDT, this record will be taken down too. How long? No one knows. But from my view, this score is legit and it should'nt be banned, anytime. Just let this pp record act as a target for the rest of the players to aim for.
-ZethZ161
Note: this is all my personal opinions, so if you want to, hate it. i wont complain since everyone has a different perspective on everything
Yes they were but how many of them? How they were builded? I played them too but well, what it is now it's just out of hand. Older "pp maps" in comparison to actual once are perfectly balanced TV/full-size maps, especially pre-"mid 2015" once. Period.pkhg wrote:
also mapping has nothing to do with how the pp system works. there were "pp" maps even before pp existed
agreed completely with everything in this post[Taiga] wrote:
4. Ranking and competition
Short - please don't speak about ranking being competitive when right now whole idea of pp ranking is an "shooter based game with rhythm in background". Ranking was competitive till mid of 2015 where whole idea of forcing aim based maps started, where "one trick ponies" were punished and they were halted at certain point for not knowing how to read complex patterns, how to stream, how to burst, how to jump etc.
TL;DR: Personally, I don't mind touchscreen players, more, I pray for more scores like that to expose flaws of current mapping meta. Maybe players start veto this 30s-1m pure aim based overweighted maps and force mappers to make something "quality". It is not device problem - it is pure mapping problem which comes to - pure human problem. You opened doors for touchscreen players to make this scores. Deal with it.
That some nice post , as you can see in *problem chain* we just need to change pp gain from long distance jumpsCatgirl wrote:
agreed completely with everything in this post[Taiga] wrote:
4. Ranking and competition
Short - please don't speak about ranking being competitive when right now whole idea of pp ranking is an "shooter based game with rhythm in background". Ranking was competitive till mid of 2015 where whole idea of forcing aim based maps started, where "one trick ponies" were punished and they were halted at certain point for not knowing how to read complex patterns, how to stream, how to burst, how to jump etc.
TL;DR: Personally, I don't mind touchscreen players, more, I pray for more scores like that to expose flaws of current mapping meta. Maybe players start veto this 30s-1m pure aim based overweighted maps and force mappers to make something "quality". It is not device problem - it is pure mapping problem which comes to - pure human problem. You opened doors for touchscreen players to make this scores. Deal with it.
the way i see the situation over time is
1 - flawed pp system ->
2 - people discover the flaws in the system ->
3 - mappers make maps to exploit those flaws ->
4 - people like those maps because pp ->
5 - mappers make more and more of them which are even more dramatically flawed ->
6 - touchscreen can be viable for unthinkable pp plays on some of these maps
and people are thinking that suddenly removing touchscreen will fix the problem, but you really need to look back as far as step 3 at minimum, or ideally back to step 1
the problem is that the game is kinda beyond fixing due to the mentality of much of the playerbase, and due to stuff like #4 the meta probably wouldn't shift at all for a long time. for example if pp was removed today, people would still map the same way because people like the mapping style. if pp never existed (or if the system was 100% perfect on release which is impossible) then there wouldn't have been a step 2 or 3, and so on
tl;dr the problem isn't touchscreen, touchscreen has the potential to amplify the problem and peoples' perception of it
Well, I mean people are ranting anywhere in YouTube right now, so yeah.Mio Winter wrote:
No one is complaining about freedomdiver, trying to ban them or saying that touchscreen players are doing anything wrong. The issue is simply that the ranking system is designed with the purpose of awarding rank to players who can do the most difficult things, and using touchscreen makes it much easier (unfairly so) to attain rank on this system. Therefore the system is failing its purpose, and this thread here to find a way make it better. The blame goes to Reality for making it hard to create a good PP system, not to TS players for having fun playing their style and trying to do their best. : )ZethZ161 wrote:
People really are contradicting themselves. When the last highest pp record was set, people are awaiting for new records. But now, when a new record is set, people complaning about it because it is set by a touchscreen player. If new records is what everyone wants, why they complaint about it when the score is there, just because it is a touchscreen play? It is acheived from a legit play and not just aimbot or anything like that, so I don't see any problems with it.
Look, I don't care any of this bullshit, partly because I don't play STD, another part is he didn't do anything wrong or cheated the scores. I know it is basically unreacheable with normal gameplay styles like tab or mouse, but who cares? If the score is set without cheating, then it is set. There's no reason for anyone to ban the score just because "you're a touchscreen player".
So, just stop the drama from this score, and just accept the fact that freedomdiver set a 900 pp scores with a touchscreen. If you can't accept the score, go for it. Rant anyway you want. Complain and hate him as much as you want to. That will help nothing.
Who knows, maybe someday, someone, will acheive a 900 pp play with a tablet or mouse? Time will tell. Just like Cookiezi's 817 pp record on Remote Control +HDDT, this record will be taken down too. How long? No one knows. But from my view, this score is legit and it should'nt be banned, anytime. Just let this pp record act as a target for the rest of the players to aim for.
-ZethZ161
Note: this is all my personal opinions, so if you want to, hate it. i wont complain since everyone has a different perspective on everything
OT - because reddit is not for discussions, mods there allow naming and shaming, false accusations, all kind of shit, even against reddit rules. Don't expect from most cancerous place in this community to have any kind of discussion besides of pointless drama and river of tears from 6-digits.Manuel Bartual wrote:
I originally posted this on the osugame subreddit, yet it got less than 200 views. (30 or so mine editing lol) but here I am presenting my own idea.
Recent (and past) events regarding touchscreen have been a discussion topic for everyone here, and yet, no one has presented an idea that could work to make this game enjoyable and fair for everyone, again.
Idea is not bad but let me try to argue about it a little:Manuel Bartual wrote:
And so I was thinking, people want a new leaderboard for touchscreen players, right? Well... let me suggest... what about a new leaderboard for everyone? Not a pp based leaderboard, but a League-based/MMR/ELO one.
How though? It looks impossible. Well... Let's give it a try anyway.
Imagine a world, where mappers aim for actual rhythm heavy maps, complex and fun over just triangle jumps and pp.
Where your rank somewhat reflects your ability in the game and your ability to follow the rhythm of a song regardless of which one is it.
________________________________________________________________________________________
Let's make two leaderboards.
The pp leaderboard we have right now.
And, a new leaderboard for ranked multiplayer matches.
Enter multiplayer, click in ranked play and enter a random room of either "FFA" or 1v1. Find a random map, ranked over a new criteria where maps can actually get pushed to pp-leaderboards or league-leaderboards.
You have one try. Give it your best, and depending on your performance you'll get more or less points for a leaderboard.
It's basically the same system from games like League of Legends, Overwatch, etc. I'm actually surprised this hasn't been implemented yet.
________________________________________________________________________________________
There is another option which require huge load of work for several people proficient in mapping and high tier gameplay at same time (and hard to find this one right now... mapper who is low/mid 5-digit will never know how his 6* map plays in real if he is not able to play it efficiently, I know this from my own experience). Get all "well made" maps, mark them, tag them for mods, tag them for difficulty, let "Random Randy" roll maps for polls.Manuel Bartual wrote:
**Questions:**
Q- Now, how do we get people to select the MapPools for each league?
A- Well, this is the hardest part, since people should have to go manually over every ranked map (or at least most of them) and mark them as able for league or not, and which league. After that, it's the same process as ranking has right now but with the possibility to aim for league or ppranking. (Think of it as people aiming for loved)
As I said, touchscreen is not a problem. It is only for people who doesn't realize fact that for example in 2015, this hardware had REALLY low amount of playable maps, there is even topic in GnR with list of playable maps for touchscreen. Whole boom started when mappers started abusing ranking criteria + pp formula and made 30s to 1m super short, pure aim based maps which are perfect for touchscreen. They went crazy with 6* less than 1 min map, like WTF? And now people are crying that touchscreen is broken.Manuel Bartual wrote:
**Solved Issues:**
* Touchscreens won't abuse (all) the systems.
* Touchscreen players are still able to play.
* pp is still a thing. I like pp myself, but it's as flawed as an Ubisoft game.
* Mappers can aim for things other than pp! (pishifat has had a lot of influence over me)
* Team rankings? Unranked Multiplayer! Technical maps multiplayer! an actual osu! eSport?! You call it, possibilities could be infinite with just a little work.
* Tournament settings would be the standard, which will skyrocket the level of the current big tournaments.
* osu! would now be, at least, 50% of a rhythm game. (current: 5%)
NO.Manuel Bartual wrote:
Just change the ranking criteria avoid sub 1:20 maps unrank <1min maps and call it a day
I think you misunderstand me. I think an FC should still be awarded, I just think that misses should be more penalized, and the combo element removed.Linada wrote:
then FCing a map wouldn't be as rewarding as it is now, if you miss on a hard part or a slow part would mean exactly the same. FCing is still something that has do be rewarded, osu! combo wheighting is still a unique part of the game (as any other rhythm game doesn't use), making it important is what is making osu! unique imo. It makes you really wants to FC maps, and is rewarding you.Edgar_Figaro wrote:
I just think the problem with the PP and Score system has to do with combo based scoring. 1 miss should be 1 miss no matter where it occurs
ZethZ161 wrote:
Look, I don't care any of this bullshit, partly because I don't play STD, another part is he didn't do anything wrong or cheated the scores. I know it is basically unreacheable with normal gameplay styles like tab or mouse, but who cares? If the score is set without cheating, then it is set. There's no reason for anyone to ban the score just because "you're a touchscreen player".