Minor concerns are to be discussed - he's penned out a draft addressing concerns that should be hammered out. It's a much more friendly and open way of doing things than vague hints for months then a surprise overhaul that does fuck all.
Dissolution of the current BN tiering systemThis was actually discussed in the last meeting we had. It's a great responsability to join the BNG and newcomers should take their time in order to get used to their new function. As a reference when I joined the BAT a few years ago there was a non-written rule that newcomers weren't allowed to icon anything for at least 1 week, so they get used to their new work environment and read up the needed info.
The current BN tiering system will be dissolved, and replaced with a probationary system.
New BN will enter the system at this probationary level. We will call it 'T1' just for the sake of familiarity. All existing BN will be promoted to 'full members' (aka, T2) and will be allowed to both qualify and bubble maps at will.
Probationary members will not be permitted to qualify - only to bubble. The probation period will not exceed longer than a 2 month timeframe, with most people ideally out of probation after QAT review after a one month time period.
Full members may be reduced to the probationary level at any time by QAT consensus if their conduct is deemed unacceptable, or they repeatedly make large mistakes or oversights.
Probationary members that prove problematic for whatever reason will be opened up to a QAT consensus vote for dismissal from the BN. This must pass with a significant majority (66%+).
A new BN addition round will begin immediately. The new members will enter at the probationary level.
Beatmap Nominator acknowledgementThe purple color and the usertitle were proposed already like... a year ago or something? I believe it was an almost unanimous consensus but it was turned down by the dev's side back then. Even if the new webpage is under developement, making a tiny change in the old one as this shouldn't be such a fuzz.
Full members of the Beatmap Nominators (aka: not probationary members) will once again receive a forum title and the purple name they were once known for in the past.
Probationary members do not receive this until they become a full member.
This is a temporary change and will not be carried over into the new system. Nominators under the new system (new being the automated system referenced in the past) will receive a different form of visual identification, yet to be determined.
This way, people that find BN via the forums will know that purple equals someone that can help. There will be no need to consult tier lists or anything of the sort.
In addition, long-serving BN (>1.5 years) will qualify for a special title which they may choose to have applied to their account when they retire. What this will be is still being considered, but probably something involving community and modding somehow.
Beatmap Nominator rewardsThere's currently an active discussion about this topic within the BNs/QATs and opinions are getting gathered. JBH will handle the whereabouts of the modding activity, pondering the factors that might influence on it.
The most active BN member every 6 months as determined by a composite consideration of successfully qualified beatmaps and overall modding activity will receive the "Elite Nominator" title permanently, and 6 months of osu! supporter, plus 3 months that they may gift to any of their friends.
This will also be featured as a standalone news announcement complete with social media advertisement.
Other rewards will be considered as time goes on and new systems are announced.
DivisionsSome of the divisions were merged already, but it only occured on catch and mania by now. I'd rather wait up until the new BNs come to see if merging some other divisions would be possible.
Divisions will be merged together into larger but separate units based on overall activity, with attention paid to common cooperation and friendships existing between divisions at the moment.
This one is a bit nebulous and may require further consideration.
QAT changesLet me be clear about this. QATs were NEVER discouraged or prohibited to actively participate in the ranking process of a beatmap. On the contrary, I'd just quote one of our concepts while joining the QAT: "QATs, as former members of the BNG, are still allowed to participate in the ranking process of the beatmaps and therefore it's encouraged that you still mod and qualify beatmaps on your own accord."
QAT will be no longer barred (or discouraged) from bubbling, qualifying, or vetting qualified maps on their own.
The 'report a map' thread will be closed, and the functionality shifted to a 'report this map' button on the beatmap's web page. These reports will coalesce at certain thresholds within the #qat channel on the osu! internal discord, and all QAT will be expected to review these maps for potential issues as soon as they notice them.
QAT will be encouraged to return to checking qualified maps of their own initiative and interest, and a solution will be made to try to automatically allocated newly qualified maps to certain divisions for checking and approval.
My current idea for this is a Discord bot will notify divisions in their channels when a newly qualified map is assigned to them. I'm open to other ideas.
QAT will also be strongly encouraged to consider minimalist revisions of the current Ranking Criteria to promote higher quality beatmaps while removing unnecessary roadblocks to having alternate mapping styles enter Ranked. They will do so under the leadership of a self-appointed leader(s), explained more below.
QAT rewardsAnother topic that got proposed while ago, but just got applied to members that made in a certain period of time an "outstanding contribution" but got turned down to get applied for the "long-standing contributors".
Long-standing members of the QAT (>2 years) will receive a profile badge denoting their tenure and marking anything significant they achieved during their time on the team.
They will be afforded a permanent place on the osu! Alumni should they choose to retire. They will also receive osu! supporter equivalent to the length of their service on the team once they retire.
Some of this is already the case, but I figured I'd state it again just to make people aware.
Returning agencyI'm okay with the idea of getting a leader that can get a direct communication with the higher staff. It's in fact one of my concerns that we could only rely on Loctav/Ephemeral as they work actively with the devs, instead of letting us know beforehand which of the proposals could even get implemented, as most of them would need some coding abilities and/or implementation in the webpage.
Should this proposal pass in full, the leadership and direction of the QAT will no longer be determined by a nebulous group of people officiated by the "staff".
The leader(s) will be determined by an expression of interest, followed by a combined vote from both the QAT and the Beatmap Nominators. The top scoring aspirants will be considered the de-facto QAT leadership, though they may number no greater than two.
Before clarifying this further, you must all understand that the BN/QAT system is a system in flux. It has been a standalone 'workaround' to the non-availability of an automated system that is supposed to fully regulate BN appointment automatically, with the QAT designed to fill a literal quality assurance role in that regard. It will change significantly from what it currently is at some point in the near future. When that time is exactly, none of us can say.
The scope of the QAT's leadership will be largely limited to day-to-day affairs and ensuring the smooth addition to and running of the Beatmap Nominators. QAT leadership will be expected to engage with both the Beatmap Nominators and the QAT as a whole, and generally be active and engaged members of the community of their own right.
The QAT leadership will work closely with a member of the osu! team to help them get things going and to provide consul for any systemic changes they may wish to make.
For the time being, that member will be me (Ephemeral). Understand however, that I will not be assuming direct leadership of the QAT under any circumstances bar an absolute necessity. My time has long since passed, and it is well past time for the newer members of the community to begin having their say in the game's future direction.
itsBubblun wrote:
The most active BN will be determined every 6 months via a composite consideration of successfully qualified beatmaps and overall modding activity, and will receive the Elite Nominator title plus suitable accolades for their efforts.'Successful qualifications' need to go. There's only so many maps that deserve to be qualified, so when those maps get qualified, what maps are the bns going to look at? They might resort to qualifying unfitting maps. Qualtiy is a subjective term, but Modding activity is more accurate because mods can be analyzed for proper reasoning despite how much of the mod was applied, so I think this should be kept. One form of activity I'd like to add is participation in events. As in, bns who become judges of tournaments receive 'extra credit' for example.
Second, it's about the bn awards. I'm glad the staff have noticed motivation as an issue, but I still question it's effectiveness.
I feel bns & qat should be paid for their activity. Whether it be actual money or osu supporter, they need some form of consistent payment. A tag is cool, but then what's after that? Having a monthly payment or award would encourage them to stay active. The bns do work that a game developer would make money off of, so I think this is where they lose motivation.
Please don't assume that everyone thinks the way you (and certain other people that speak out in public) do. The tier change has improved the quality of ranking in a sense that there are less maps qualified that were considered "very bad" by the community - The border isn't very clear, but if you look at the reports lately you'll notice 99% of them are about more minor things than we had before the tier split.Naotoshi wrote:
I think at this point, the idea of tiers changing the quality of ranked should probably be abandoned since it clearly didn't work...
In addition, long-serving BN (>1.5 years) will qualify for a special title which they may choose to have applied to their account when they retire. What this will be is still being considered, but probably something involving community and modding somehow.While I agree that awarding long-serving members of BN (or QAT) is a good thing that gives these people something permanent once they retire but it doesn't really help them in any way. Of course, if I retired, I'd be much happier to have a permanent title than nothing, but these people could also be given an opportunity to return to the BN without as many restrictions as other people. e.g. Taking a half year or even a year break will not make you forget all the modding/nomination process, so you could easily enter the probationary BN. (And for these people, the 2 month period could be shortened) I'm not saying that every BN that has been in BN for 1.5 should be able to leave and enter BN as they'd like to, but returning after a break shouldn't be such a big deal if they were reliable in past.
Divisions will be merged together into larger but separate units based on overall activity, with attention paid to common cooperation and friendships existing between divisions at the moment.I'm a little bit afraid of this one. I don't know how much larger units it should be, so maybe it's not that bad, but I've seen more communication in the small subdivision than I've seen for my entire BN membership. You get to know to people in smaller groups much easier and you are more likely to actually work together. I personally consider a small group to be a very good option as with larger groups, a serious communication is rarely established.
oh, i was under the impression that the probation period was only going to apply to the mode with tiering currently. applying to everything does make a lot more sense though, so i'm all for thatDeif wrote:
I have to disagree with pishifat's statement though, the probation time should be implemented asap with the current non-standard cycle. I don't see the point in waiting for the next applications to get this done.
Wafu wrote:
I'm a little bit afraid of this one. I don't know how much larger units it should be, so maybe it's not that bad, but I've seen more communication in the small subdivision than I've seen for my entire BN membership. You get to know to people in smaller groups much easier and you are more likely to actually work together. I personally consider a small group to be a very good option as with larger groups, a serious communication is rarely established.
Sadly, from the past till present day, there is obvious inner circlejerk group within BN/QAT which just push maps made by certain mappers without even taking quality into consideration, not mention players community voice and negative feedback. I highly doubt this change will ever take a place to remove this behavior, it sounds more like "calming words for enraged community which complain about lately terrible quality of maps and inflating pp map meta".Ephemeral wrote:
- QAT will be freed from administrative obligation (regarding busywork and the like) and will be encouraged to check qualified maps of their own volition again. A new reporting system will be linked to the internal QAT channels, allowing them to fill their primary obligation as members of the team - to respond to complaints about improperly qualified maps.
- QAT will be encouraged to consider minimalist revisions of the current Ranking Criteria to promote higher quality beatmaps whilst also removing unnecessary roadblocks to alternate mapping styles entering Ranked
- The de-facto leadership of the QAT will be determined by applicants expressing their interest, and placing themselves before a combined vote of the BN and QAT. The top two applicants will be considered as the QAT leadership, and will work closely with a member of the osu! team (myself, currently) to see the day-to-day affairs of running the team kept in order, and also to tackle any issues that may arise.
oopsxxdeathx wrote:
I still question it's effectiveness.
its
Couldn't agree more. So yeah, I'll give my opinion to the proposal too:Deif wrote:
To be honest, I'm sick and tired of getting blamed for not being transparent enough towards other members of the modding community.
Dissolution of the current BN tiering systemWe discussed the probation period thing in the last meeting and I'm all for it. One potential problem I have is the "All existing BN will be promoted to 'full members'" thing as I think that we should not just blindly "promote" all of our current BNs. In my opinion, it might be better to look at all current T1s and decide case by case who we can put into the "regular members" already and who we'd like to go into the probation period first in order to prove themselves again.
The current BN tiering system will be dissolved, and replaced with a probationary system.
New BN will enter the system at this probationary level. We will call it 'T1' just for the sake of familiarity. All existing BN will be promoted to 'full members' (aka, T2) and will be allowed to both qualify and bubble maps at will.
Probationary members will not be permitted to qualify - only to bubble. The probation period will not exceed longer than a 2 month timeframe, with most people ideally out of probation after QAT review after a one month time period.
Full members may be reduced to the probationary level at any time by QAT consensus if their conduct is deemed unacceptable, or they repeatedly make large mistakes or oversights.
Probationary members that prove problematic for whatever reason will be opened up to a QAT consensus vote for dismissal from the BN. This must pass with a significant majority (66%+).
A new BN addition round will begin immediately. The new members will enter at the probationary level.
Beatmap Nominator acknowledgementI think proposing this again and again already dates back to 2014, so yeah, I think it's about time that they get it. I don't really see why we'd do it temporarely though, can't we carry it over to the new website like QAT/GMT colours and titles?
Full members of the Beatmap Nominators (aka: not probationary members) will once again receive a forum title and the purple name they were once known for in the past.
Probationary members do not receive this until they become a full member.
This is a temporary change and will not be carried over into the new system. Nominators under the new system (new being the automated system referenced in the past) will receive a different form of visual identification, yet to be determined.
This way, people that find BN via the forums will know that purple equals someone that can help. There will be no need to consult tier lists or anything of the sort.
In addition, long-serving BN (>1.5 years) will qualify for a special title which they may choose to have applied to their account when they retire. What this will be is still being considered, but probably something involving community and modding somehow.
Beatmap Nominator rewardsNot really sure what to think about the Elite Nominator title being handed out for activity only as Elite to me rather means that they are good with what they are doing rather than spamming mods like a machine. Otherwise, I'm fine with the concept.
The most active BN member every 6 months as determined by a composite consideration of successfully qualified beatmaps and overall modding activity will receive the "Elite Nominator" title permanently, and 6 months of osu! supporter, plus 3 months that they may gift to any of their friends.
This will also be featured as a standalone news announcement complete with social media advertisement.
Other rewards will be considered as time goes on and new systems are announced.
DivisionsWe are already discussing how we could make the divisions function better. I don't really think merging them is that reasonable though if we'd actually for example make them optional, i.e. making BNs who want to be loners work alone and let BNs who want to work together form a division under a voluntary QAT lead. But yeah, I agree with reworking the division system in general.
Divisions will be merged together into larger but separate units based on overall activity, with attention paid to common cooperation and friendships existing between divisions at the moment.
This one is a bit nebulous and may require further consideration.
QAT changesI mean we were never discouraged from bubbling or qualifying but yeah, I don't think it's bad to allow QATs to disqualify on their own again (in case we are allowed to).
QAT will be no longer barred (or discouraged) from bubbling, qualifying, or vetting qualified maps on their own.
The 'report a map' thread will be closed, and the functionality shifted to a 'report this map' button on the beatmap's web page. These reports will coalesce at certain thresholds within the #qat channel on the osu! internal discord, and all QAT will be expected to review these maps for potential issues as soon as they notice them.
QAT will be encouraged to return to checking qualified maps of their own initiative and interest, and a solution will be made to try to automatically allocated newly qualified maps to certain divisions for checking and approval.
My current idea for this is a Discord bot will notify divisions in their channels when a newly qualified map is assigned to them. I'm open to other ideas.
QAT will also be strongly encouraged to consider minimalist revisions of the current Ranking Criteria to promote higher quality beatmaps while removing unnecessary roadblocks to having alternate mapping styles enter Ranked. They will do so under the leadership of a self-appointed leader(s), explained more below.
I think this is a really good idea and some divisions like oko's and mine partially already do this with members highlighting the division once they icon or in my division we recently put the bot into our channel to show eachother what the division members are doing.Deif wrote:
I'd like to propose that the qualified map nominated by certain division shall be checked by the same division (eg if Bonsai qualifies a map, Okorin should be notified in this case). That way we'd kill two birds with the same stone: A fairly high amount of qualified maps (if not all) would be revised, and also the subdivision leaders would have a better overview about what their members nominate.
QAT rewardsNothing to say here, totally fine.
Long-standing members of the QAT (>2 years) will receive a profile badge denoting their tenure and marking anything significant they achieved during their time on the team.
They will be afforded a permanent place on the osu! Alumni should they choose to retire. They will also receive osu! supporter equivalent to the length of their service on the team once they retire.
Some of this is already the case, but I figured I'd state it again just to make people aware.
Returning agencyI don't really see a problem here with having QAT leaders themselves but I voiced these concerns before and I'm still holding on to them: I think that if we have BNs vote, it will end up as a popularity contest and that will result most likely in a non-functioning leadership.
Should this proposal pass in full, the leadership and direction of the QAT will no longer be determined by a nebulous group of people officiated by the "staff".
The leader(s) will be determined by an expression of interest, followed by a combined vote from both the QAT and the Beatmap Nominators. The top scoring aspirants will be considered the de-facto QAT leadership, though they may number no greater than two.
Before clarifying this further, you must all understand that the BN/QAT system is a system in flux. It has been a standalone 'workaround' to the non-availability of an automated system that is supposed to fully regulate BN appointment automatically, with the QAT designed to fill a literal quality assurance role in that regard. It will change significantly from what it currently is at some point in the near future. When that time is exactly, none of us can say.
The scope of the QAT's leadership will be largely limited to day-to-day affairs and ensuring the smooth addition to and running of the Beatmap Nominators. QAT leadership will be expected to engage with both the Beatmap Nominators and the QAT as a whole, and generally be active and engaged members of the community of their own right.
The QAT leadership will work closely with a member of the osu! team to help them get things going and to provide consul for any systemic changes they may wish to make.
For the time being, that member will be me (Ephemeral). Understand however, that I will not be assuming direct leadership of the QAT under any circumstances bar an absolute necessity. My time has long since passed, and it is well past time for the newer members of the community to begin having their say in the game's future direction.
tl;dr: is aight, some problemsKondou-Shinichi wrote:
is there a TL;DR of this TL;DR?
If you're still picking T1's then it's not probationary and you're still trying to keep the tiering system. You should read this change as "tiering system is gone" not "tiering system is now more lenient". I think you misunderstood the point if you are fine with it :\. Only new BN's would be on probation which makes sense since they are new. If you have issues with current BN's why not talk to them instead of trying to keep them from being full members? You're trying to be transparent right? So maybe you can discuss with them instead of judging them without letting them know what qualms you have with their current mode of operation. As well, how do you judge how BN's would have "proven" themselves? By only nominating maps you think are high quality? What if they have a different definition of quality to you? Many of the new BN's who got in through the BN Tests have been following your guys' concepts of "high quality maps" for too long, and it's caused mapping to become stale. Don't expect that to continue. There used to be multiple definitions. Now, mapping quality has become too streamlined.Mao wrote:
We discussed the probation period thing in the last meeting and I'm all for it. One potential problem I have is the "All existing BN will be promoted to 'full members'" thing as I think that we should not just blindly "promote" all of our current BNs. In my opinion, it might be better to look at all current T1s and decide case by case who we can put into the "regular members" already and who we'd like to go into the probation period first in order to prove themselves again.
So yeah but all in all, I'm fine with this point.
First of all, what's wrong with a popularity contest? QAT's like pishifat and Okorin are popular because they put themselves forward, and are a lot more transparent in what they do. They are also a lot more active at least from what we can see as BN's and mappers. Maybe it's time you guys stopped being all secretive?Mao wrote:
I don't really see a problem here with having QAT leaders themselves but I voiced these concerns before and I'm still holding on to them: I think that if we have BNs vote, it will end up as a popularity contest and that will result most likely in a non-functioning leadership.
So yeah, I'm against this point for now, not because of the idea of a leadership but because of the way these leaders are elected.
Mao wrote:
Deif wrote:
To be honest, I'm sick and tired of getting blamed for not being transparent enough towards other members of the modding community.
Couldn't agree more. So yeah, I'll give my opinion to the proposal too:
You shouldn't assume the tier shift has improved mapping quality either. That's a really big assumption... Nao's assumption is at least built on the fact that 99% of people here support abandoning the tier shift. (It's not actually 99%, i'm just using your rhetoric ;3)Desperate-kun wrote:
Please don't assume that everyone thinks the way you (and certain other people that speak out in public) do. The tier change has improved the quality of ranking in a sense that there are less maps qualified that were considered "very bad" by the community - The border isn't very clear, but if you look at the reports lately you'll notice 99% of them are about more minor things than we had before the tier split.Naotoshi wrote:
I think at this point, the idea of tiers changing the quality of ranked should probably be abandoned since it clearly didn't work...
To remain the quality standard we have, or even improve it, while implementing the proposed system, the QATs will need to make sure to find a method of selecting those BNs that isn't just "anyone who didn't get striked", otherwise this is a huge step backwards. The actual maps those people qualified need to be taken into account.
99%? You should check the thread again. Many of the issues that were reported in the thread were also reported even before the tier shift.Desp wrote:
The border isn't very clear, but if you look at the reports lately you'll notice 99% of them are about more minor things than we had before the tier split.
I'm actually really looking forward to this. Mapping has become stale, and you can see that in the community response. Quality is good in most maps, but mapping is too streamlined towards a certain "high quality standard" through correct emphasis, aesthetics, slider designs, flows, etc... The issue really is that right there is "the quality standard" as in only one standard of quality, whereas previously there were others. Look at old maps since you seem to enjoy them. Spacing was a lot more radical, and emphasis wasn't always correct. Some old chinese mappers, AngelHoney/fanzhen/kiddly had a habit of emphasizing red-ticks in jump patterns instead of white ticks which for mappers today is "incorrect emphasis, since white ticks are stronger". But they were (and still are) great maps to play. New Gravity is still one of my favourites, and it employs this red-tick jump idea.Desp wrote:
To remain the quality standard we have, or even improve it, while implementing the proposed system, the QATs will need to make sure to find a method of selecting those BNs that isn't just "anyone who didn't get striked", otherwise this is a huge step backwards. The actual maps those people qualified need to be taken into account.
I would remind this to MrMonstrata, it seems it has been forgotten alreadyEphemeral wrote:
Refrain from commenting on other's opinions or the like for the time being - we'll have an open-ended discussion thread on that at a later date.
Dissolution of the current BN tiering systemI can't say much for this as a non-standard division leader, but I do agree with the proposed probation system. New BNs will need to tinker with their new tools and get accustomed into the rules and guidelines of being a BN to determine whether or not they actually fit as a member of the BNG. I think 1-2 months is a good enough timeframe to decide that.
The current BN tiering system will be dissolved, and replaced with a probationary system.
New BN will enter the system at this probationary level. We will call it 'T1' just for the sake of familiarity. All existing BN will be promoted to 'full members' (aka, T2) and will be allowed to both qualify and bubble maps at will.
Probationary members will not be permitted to qualify - only to bubble. The probation period will not exceed longer than a 2 month timeframe, with most people ideally out of probation after QAT review after a one month time period.
Full members may be reduced to the probationary level at any time by QAT consensus if their conduct is deemed unacceptable, or they repeatedly make large mistakes or oversights.
Probationary members that prove problematic for whatever reason will be opened up to a QAT consensus vote for dismissal from the BN. This must pass with a significant majority (66%+).
A new BN addition round will begin immediately. The new members will enter at the probationary level.
Beatmap Nominator acknowledgementI think the name color was proposed before but somehow wasn't really implemented, though I'm not sure why these changes are only temporary and don't carry over to the new system. I don't think it should be that hard to implement name colors in the new website.
Full members of the Beatmap Nominators (aka: not probationary members) will once again receive a forum title and the purple name they were once known for in the past.
Probationary members do not receive this until they become a full member.
This is a temporary change and will not be carried over into the new system. Nominators under the new system (new being the automated system referenced in the past) will receive a different form of visual identification, yet to be determined.
This way, people that find BN via the forums will know that purple equals someone that can help. There will be no need to consult tier lists or anything of the sort.
In addition, long-serving BN (>1.5 years) will qualify for a special title which they may choose to have applied to their account when they retire. What this will be is still being considered, but probably something involving community and modding somehow.
Beatmap Nominator rewardsThis one is currently being discussed among the BNG/QAT. I don't really foresee titles being given out for people that only pass that threshold, and I believe there should be more variables taken into account in determining how BNs will get rewarded for it. (e.g. Did the map end up in the Spotlights? Did the BN qualify a map from a new mapper?)
The most active BN member every 6 months as determined by a composite consideration of successfully qualified beatmaps and overall modding activity will receive the "Elite Nominator" title permanently, and 6 months of osu! supporter, plus 3 months that they may gift to any of their friends.
This will also be featured as a standalone news announcement complete with social media advertisement.
Other rewards will be considered as time goes on and new systems are announced.
DivisionsAlready happened with catch and mania, and on my side it's actually much better than it was before. I do like that we're now able to communicate much better and that we're able to work together if some of us needed help with checking a map.
Divisions will be merged together into larger but separate units based on overall activity, with attention paid to common cooperation and friendships existing between divisions at the moment.
This one is a bit nebulous and may require further consideration.
QAT changesWe haven't been discouraged of modding / bubbling / qualifying for a long while now. In fact, we are actually encourage of doing them while we do other thing. This change was made around a year ago or so iirc.
QAT will be no longer barred (or discouraged) from bubbling, qualifying, or vetting qualified maps on their own.
The 'report a map' thread will be closed, and the functionality shifted to a 'report this map' button on the beatmap's web page. These reports will coalesce at certain thresholds within the #qat channel on the osu! internal discord, and all QAT will be expected to review these maps for potential issues as soon as they notice them.
QAT will be encouraged to return to checking qualified maps of their own initiative and interest, and a solution will be made to try to automatically allocated newly qualified maps to certain divisions for checking and approval.
My current idea for this is a Discord bot will notify divisions in their channels when a newly qualified map is assigned to them. I'm open to other ideas.
QAT will also be strongly encouraged to consider minimalist revisions of the current Ranking Criteria to promote higher quality beatmaps while removing unnecessary roadblocks to having alternate mapping styles enter Ranked. They will do so under the leadership of a self-appointed leader(s), explained more below.
QAT rewardsOverall agree to this. It's nice to feel rewarded for the stuff you do every once in a while, but only if you earned it.
Long-standing members of the QAT (>2 years) will receive a profile badge denoting their tenure and marking anything significant they achieved during their time on the team.
They will be afforded a permanent place on the osu! Alumni should they choose to retire. They will also receive osu! supporter equivalent to the length of their service on the team once they retire.
Some of this is already the case, but I figured I'd state it again just to make people aware.
Returning agencyI'm not sure how I feel about this one. If anything, QAT Leaders should be evaluated by the staff on how they work / act around others and how they're going to lead the whole BNG/QAT once they're appointed. I'm aware of the 'popularity contest' aspect that's been going around, but this voting system is more of a double-edged sword that can either be very beneficial in leading the whole BNG/QAT or can backfire in a way that things don't change or become worse.
Should this proposal pass in full, the leadership and direction of the QAT will no longer be determined by a nebulous group of people officiated by the "staff".
The leader(s) will be determined by an expression of interest, followed by a combined vote from both the QAT and the Beatmap Nominators. The top scoring aspirants will be considered the de-facto QAT leadership, though they may number no greater than two.
Before clarifying this further, you must all understand that the BN/QAT system is a system in flux. It has been a standalone 'workaround' to the non-availability of an automated system that is supposed to fully regulate BN appointment automatically, with the QAT designed to fill a literal quality assurance role in that regard. It will change significantly from what it currently is at some point in the near future. When that time is exactly, none of us can say.
The scope of the QAT's leadership will be largely limited to day-to-day affairs and ensuring the smooth addition to and running of the Beatmap Nominators. QAT leadership will be expected to engage with both the Beatmap Nominators and the QAT as a whole, and generally be active and engaged members of the community of their own right.
The QAT leadership will work closely with a member of the osu! team to help them get things going and to provide consul for any systemic changes they may wish to make.
For the time being, that member will be me (Ephemeral). Understand however, that I will not be assuming direct leadership of the QAT under any circumstances bar an absolute necessity. My time has long since passed, and it is well past time for the newer members of the community to begin having their say in the game's future direction.
BN members receive increased acknowledgement via a forum title and some sort of visual identification (currently a purple name a la MAT). This particular point is temporary and will not carry over into the 'moddingv2' version of the Beatmap Nominators.I always wonder why BNs didn't obtain this kind of identification like old MATs from the beginning of BN/QAT change. This would be 100% correct if it wasn't "temporary" but permanent. Do not forget that if we have the possibility to play every day some new qualified > ranked maps this is given by the BNs hard work that should be recognized by others as well. They deserve to be recognized with some different colour in the forum/game chat like old MATs system.
The most active BN will be determined every 6 months via a composite consideration of successfully qualified beatmaps and overall modding activity, and will receive the Elite Nominator title plus suitable accolades for their efforts.This is actually cool. This would push BNs to work more and better. I mean better because if this comes to be true they could try to nominate maps that are not 100% ready for ranking just to show their activities for the hunger of power making troubles with the future QATs' work. (Well I am kinda pessimist but we must see all the aspects of each propose).
QAT will be freed from administrative obligation (regarding busywork and the like) and will be encouraged to check qualified maps of their own volition again. A new reporting system will be linked to the internal QAT channels, allowing them to fill their primary obligation as members of the team - to respond to complaints about improperly qualified maps.Finally? I always wonder so far what QATs were related to mapping/modding system since they are doing only moderating actions.
QAT will be encouraged to consider minimalist revisions of the current Ranking Criteria to promote higher quality beatmaps whilst also removing unnecessary roadblocks to alternate mapping styles entering RankedThis is so cool. But being the BNs experienced modders and mappers as well they could contribuite to this too.
You are right by a side, but not on the other one. There are a lot of cases you mentioned that are true, but don't forget that BNs are anyways experienced mappers. If they get a map modded and even nominated by his BN friend, you can't do anything with this, but you can't even negate the fact that if they get the nomination this means that the map is ready to be qualified and ranked. You can not make this a BN's fault because when they mod a BN's map he is working for him like he does for everyone else.GaterRaider wrote:
An upheaval to me would require that the blatant favoritism amongst BNs is addressed. Quick bubbles are passed around as favors that will be returned in the future in some way or the other. I am not going to name people but public cases of this are well recorded and should be no surprise to anyone. I don't even want to know how bad this truly is when you are an insider that has access to these advantages.
The problem is that nominators are naturally mappers and have a lot of influence in the ranking process. This creates an obvious incentive for favoritism to help each other out with their own maps. When those who are in charge of running the system are actively participating in it as individuals themselves then there are going to be problems.
Connections are too big of a driver in the current ranking process. Those with access to the people in charge are highly advantaged compared to those that do not. When getting hold of a BN is incredibly frustrating for some, while others can simply post a short message in a private discord server to get things rolling quickly I do not consider it a fair system.
the more things change the more they remain the same imo, just under a different name from beforeMashley wrote:
jeez, I struggle to understand how this stuff works any more. It's weird how this system's been constantly reworked for like a decade and all that's happened is it's gotten progressively more complicated and confusing without, as far as I can tell, getting much more efficient.
Anxient wrote:
this is a good civilization.
Current BN tiering system is dissolved and replaced with a 1-2 month probationary system with provisions for promotion/demotion based on conductI for real can't tell much to the Tier System because it was only a osu! thing. But from my view i support this idea. And like Irre said above, "Following the CoC etc. etc. is an important matter, too."
Long, consistently serving BN will receive a special title which they may choose to wear upon their retirement from the team. This will apply retroactively to all qualifying, currently-retired BN.Absolute support this. BN's do a ton of work for osu! and their community, everyone put his free time into this voluntary hobby. Some rewards for their work should have happend already long ago xP
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The most active BN will be determined every 6 months via a composite consideration of successfully qualified beatmaps and overall modding activity, and will receive the Elite Nominator title plus suitable accolades for their efforts.
Divisions will receive more attention and reworking by members of the QAT to better reflect active participation in them by those who are interested.Hmm.. with "by those who are interested" you mean you want to make participation into BN division optional? If so i don't know if this is such a good idea. Divisons should get a part of the BNG Membership for the sake of the community. Within division the BN's work closer together and have someone to ask if needed without bigger trouble. A highlight is enough. Right now the division thing is running actually pretty cool and smooth (Maybe just some are a bit inactive but then just drop a whip there).
QAT will be freed from administrative obligation (regarding busywork and the like) and will be encouraged to check qualified maps of their own volition again. A new reporting system will be linked to the internal QAT channels, allowing them to fill their primary obligation as members of the team - to respond to complaints about improperly qualified maps.As far i know we were never discouraged to check qualify maps. We always could do that, just not DQ on our own when for playability changes. I as example did check a lot of maps since the reporting system started and did disqualify them if something was against the RC. For massive playability stuff i just did drop a mod if necessary and asked an other QAT to look over it.
QAT will be encouraged to consider minimalist revisions of the current Ranking Criteria to promote higher quality beatmaps whilst also removing unnecessary roadblocks to alternate mapping styles entering RankedI put a big "Under Construction" sign here. A rework of the ranking criteria for all modes is currently going on.
The de-facto leadership of the QAT will be determined by applicants expressing their interest, and placing themselves before a combined vote of the BN and QAT. The top two applicants will be considered as the QAT leadership, and will work closely with a member of the osu! team (myself, currently) to see the day-to-day affairs of running the team kept in order, and also to tackle any issues that may arise.QAT leader: Good
Exactly, I don't want to have a leader who never communicate with us.Monstrata wrote:
Also, I'd rather have a QAT in charge that is popular and can get along with the BN ecosystem than a QAT who might be "better" (very subjective too) at their job, but has very little support from the people they want to lead. You only fear the QAT leadership will become dysfunctional because the unpopular QAT's (You, Cryptic, Doyak etc...) won't have a chance compared to pishifat/oko/maybe kwan if shes staying. But do you really think they will create a dysfunctional leadership? What criteria do you think determines a good QAT leader? And why do you fear that other QAT members might not meet that criteria?
Ephemeral wrote:
- Current BN tiering system is dissolved and replaced with a 1-2 month probationary system with provisions for promotion/demotion based on conduct
thanks, BN tiers was big mistake- BN members receive increased acknowledgement via a forum title and some sort of visual identification (currently a purple name a la MAT). This particular point is temporary and will not carry over into the 'moddingv2' version of the Beatmap Nominators.
Why temporary? tbh I never understand why you guys never notice that BNs are the ones who keep the game running, make this permanent- The most active BN will be determined every 6 months via a composite consideration of successfully qualified beatmaps and overall modding activity, and will receive the Elite Nominator title plus suitable accolades for their efforts.
I really don't like to have ranking system, it's better to have rewards tbh- Divisions will receive more attention and reworking by members of the QAT to better reflect active participation in them by those who are interested.
I'm happy to work with a team, but being honest my experience with division is bad, for example in the last month I made 23 icons vs 13 from the other 5 members, I think a rework is needed, maybe an activity balance? I really don't like using discord and I'd prefer if we keep using the forum instead of an external app (but that's just me, maybe?)
Current BN tiering system is dissolved and replaced with a 1-2 month probationary system with provisions for promotion/demotion based on conductMy only concern with the tiering system was the lack of clear indicator which shows who belongs where. But actually, I'm fine with this proposal at the moment.
BN members receive increased acknowledgment via a forum title and some sort of visual identification (currently a purple name a la MAT). This particular point is temporary and will not carry over into the 'moddingv2' version of the Beatmap Nominators.As I was a part of the newBAT and I was there when the red color disappeared and I was among the fighters who wanted some indicator what shows that he/she does something useful for the community and helps the mappers finding someone who can move their maps forward. I still remember when Loctav said that color won't be a thing then when the badges appeared I remember we requested to make it seeable everywhere on the forum, this never happened as well. Ever since I became a QAT we brought up this topic several times but nothing happened because of reasons, now you come with the same, one hundred times spoken idea saying it could be a thing. I'm not against this just feels weird because BNs are waiting for something like this for 3 (or more) years already.
Long, consistently serving BN will receive a special title which they may choose to wear upon their retirement from the team. This will apply retroactively to all qualifying, currently-retired BN.I totally support this.
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The most active BN will be determined every 6 months via a composite consideration of successfully qualified beatmaps and overall modding activity and will receive the Elite Nominator title plus suitable accolades for their efforts.
Divisions will receive more attention and reworking by members of the QAT to better reflect active participation in them by those who are interested."those who are interested"? It shouldn't be optional in my opinion. Better to help out the new recruits in a smaller team than leaving them on their own. The division system is good just needs more attention than they got in the past.
QAT will be freed from administrative obligation (regarding busywork and the like) and will be encouraged to check qualified maps of their own volition again. A new reporting system will be linked to the internal QAT channels, allowing them to fill their primary obligation as members of the team - to respond to complaints about improperly qualified maps.We were never discouraged to not check them and we were never limited to administrative work but you must keep in mind that a few of us has a little to no time to actually participate into the ranking so that might be the reason it felt like we are not allowed to do so. Anyway, I really like the idea of the reporting system although the thread already served that purpose.
QAT will be encouraged to consider minimalist revisions of the current Ranking Criteria to promote higher quality beatmaps whilst also removing unnecessary roadblocks to alternate mapping styles entering RankedThe current criteria can't be considered as strict, there is no limit for alternate mapping styles. It mostly blocks the game breakers and the useless stuff. The revision is on-going anyway so this feels useless.
The de-facto leadership of the QAT will be determined by applicants expressing their interest, and placing themselves before a combined vote of the BN and QAT. The top two applicants will be considered as the QAT leadership, and will work closely with a member of the osu! team (myself, currently) to see the day-to-day affairs of running the team kept in order, and also to tackle any issues that may arise.Having a leader is good but actually, I do not know why should the BNs be allowed to vote. I mean, they will get little to no benefit from doing so. The QAT is basically the leader of the BNs anyway. I do not have time to be a leader and I rather go back to modding anyway so I do not really mind but it feels weird.
I have no opinion on the tiering system as it didn't affect the gamemode I am part of. I'm okay with the probationary period.Ephemeral wrote:
Current BN tiering system is dissolved and replaced with a 1-2 month probationary system with provisions for promotion/demotion based on conduct
I've read from you and other members of the staff that the BNs are extremely important to the game. This seems to conflict with how little recognition and reward BNs currently receive. While the stuff mentioned above is an attempt, it's still inadequate. The color name is completely pointless if it's temporary, especially with moddingv2 coming supposedly soon. I'm not really keen on the idea of having a competition - because, whatever thing you want to factor in in the formula, it's still a competition - to give some sort of mid-term reward. As other have mentioned, a monthly osu!supporter tag could be well received, as it's something far more concrete. This, along with the title thing - which I'm okay with - levels the rewards for the BNG with the current situation for the QATs (which is, according to the proposal, getting a buff, too).Ephemeral wrote:
- BN members receive increased acknowledgement via a forum title and some sort of visual identification (currently a purple name a la MAT). This particular point is temporary and will not carry over into the 'moddingv2' version of the Beatmap Nominators.
- Long, consistently serving BN will receive a special title which they may choose to wear upon their retirement from the team. This will apply retroactively to all qualifying, currently-retired BN.
- The most active BN will be determined every 6 months via a composite consideration of successfully qualified beatmaps and overall modding activity, and will receive the Elite Nominator title plus suitable accolades for their efforts.
This is way too abstract and not concrete, so I'm not commenting on this. I just wanted to say that I thought since day one that the subdivisions, at least for catch, were not going to work and I'm glad we've been merged again.Ephemeral wrote:
Divisions will receive more attention and reworking by members of the QAT to better reflect active participation in them by those who are interested.
The reporting system sounds cool. As other have mentioned, it must include something to state the reasons for the report (I don't know how "mods" post qualification are going to be handled in moddingv2).Ephemeral wrote:
QAT will be freed from administrative obligation (regarding busywork and the like) and will be encouraged to check qualified maps of their own volition again. A new reporting system will be linked to the internal QAT channels, allowing them to fill their primary obligation as members of the team - to respond to complaints about improperly qualified maps.
QATs can, like any other member of the community, already propose additions, removals of modifications to the RC, that go through the respective UBKRC group. Also, I don't think the RC is that strict, at least in catch, to roadblock alternative mapping styles, so there's another reason to consider this unnecessary on my side.Ephemeral wrote:
QAT will be encouraged to consider minimalist revisions of the current Ranking Criteria to promote higher quality beatmaps whilst also removing unnecessary roadblocks to alternate mapping styles entering Ranked
As QATs directly influence the BNG, I personally think the BNG should be able to vote. Obviously, BN votes shouldn't be weighted the same as QAT votes due to the large difference in the amount of members in both groups.Ephemeral wrote:
The de-facto leadership of the QAT will be determined by applicants expressing their interest, and placing themselves before a combined vote of the BN and QAT. The top two applicants will be considered as the QAT leadership, and will work closely with a member of the osu! team (myself, currently) to see the day-to-day affairs of running the team kept in order, and also to tackle any issues that may arise.[/list]