Regardless of the changes that go through or any criticisms of the proposed ones, I'm really glad that the osu!team is taking action to help BNs. Keep it up! 👌
Desperate-kun wrote:
This sounds very promising.
Though, the reason why QATs stopped disqualifying maps on their own was mainly the will of peppy himself, so I don't see this change reverting unless you can actually convince him.
Also, I don't see the need for BNs to take part in the voting of a QAT leader - Simply because the BNs will never have the full insight on what each QAT is doing and how well they are doing it, it's going to be more of a popularity contest than anything.
Kinda agree with both here, as it is I don't think BNs should be weighing in on who a QAT team leader would be, but it's certainly true that there needs to be a lot more transparency or at least clarity on the part of the QAT.Monstrata wrote:
If the QAT became more transparent then it would be good to at least have BN insight. This is a fault of the QAT's not being transparent enough imo, not a fault of us "not being qualified to vote for QAT's".
Mappers may not know what BN's are doing internally, but there are methods to finding out, and what BN's are doing are not nearly as secretive as what QAT's are doing in any regard. As well, we can also comment on the actions of QAT's based on what we know, or what they have been doing on the public-facing front.
For example, we know pishifat does a lot of videos and gives a lot of insight into mapping theory. We also know he qualifies a bunch of maps, sometimes with minimal modding if any (and I'm sure there are people who've come to question these "yolo ranks"), we also know he participates in or had participated in BN test creation and that he is involved in helping with the Ranking Criteria changes.
I've always questioned why QAT's needed to be so secretive in the first place. Why weren't BN test answers released? People can learn from them, especially the Part A answers (considering they are not private information as anyone who participated in the BN Test received the answer sheet).
So no, I disagree with Desp, I think BN's should be able to vote, but I believe they should also be given a better insight into the behind-the-scenes actions of QAT's. We shouldn't be barred from voting just because "we don't know".
MashaSG wrote:
Agree with the others ( Werbee and Kisses )
MashaSG wrote:
Werbee
To expand on this idea,Absolute Zero wrote:
I'd also like to ask (Nifty sniped me) about how exactly non-standard gamemodes will be handled, especially concerning the "Elite Nominator" title. There's a large chance that the other modes will naturally fall behind due to mapper/modder count and activity. Personally, it might be nice to separate standard from osu!catch, osu!mania, and osu!taiko--like how we treat BN applications now. This would create two (possibly) evenly matched groups of people with a "fairer playing ground". Also, with two elite nominators, we avoid the "this mode is easier because it has x BNs". Of course, if this has already been considered, feel free to ignore this comment.
The most active BN will be determined every 6 months via a composite consideration of successfully qualified beatmaps and overall modding activity, and will receive the Elite Nominator title plus suitable accolades for their efforts.'Successful qualifications' need to go. There's only so many maps that deserve to be qualified, so when those maps get qualified, what maps are the bns going to look at? They might resort to qualifying unfitting maps. Qualtiy is a subjective term, but Modding activity is more accurate because mods can be analyzed for proper reasoning despite how much of the mod was applied, so I think this should be kept. One form of activity I'd like to add is participation in events. As in, bns who become judges of tournaments receive 'extra credit' for example.
this doesn't workLitharrale wrote:
To expand on this idea,Absolute Zero wrote:
I'd also like to ask (Nifty sniped me) about how exactly non-standard gamemodes will be handled, especially concerning the "Elite Nominator" title. There's a large chance that the other modes will naturally fall behind due to mapper/modder count and activity. Personally, it might be nice to separate standard from osu!catch, osu!mania, and osu!taiko--like how we treat BN applications now. This would create two (possibly) evenly matched groups of people with a "fairer playing ground". Also, with two elite nominators, we avoid the "this mode is easier because it has x BNs". Of course, if this has already been considered, feel free to ignore this comment.
I don't think putting standard in one group and the other modes in another group is a good idea because while they are all less active than standard, they aren't as active as one another, not even close iirc.
My suggestion is to have each mode receive their own elite nominator but at different intervals than standard.
So if Standard is every 6 months, mania could be every 10 months. Taiko every year and CTB ever 14 months as an example. These time scales might seem long and they might be but it's just an example. This is the best way I can think of doing this without having the modes directly compete against one another.
Possible issues:
It requires BNs to be active for a longer period of time in less active modes to receive a title (but the trade off is less competition)
Hybrid BNs get shafted
Well, in any social environment, popularity is a strong value, even for good as for evil, I think that before hinder BN vote for QAT leader, let's try it, and if this does not work (as did not work in 2014 with newBATs), then it will be limited to elite nominators or so...Desperate-kun wrote:
Also, I don't see the need for BNs to take part in the voting of a QAT leader - Simply because the BNs will never have the full insight on what each QAT is doing and how well they are doing it, it's going to be more of a popularity contest than anything.
It is a very important question.Okorin wrote:
The tier split was a measure that was trialed and labeled as optional from our side so I am not too sad about seeing it go away. A probationary system itself seems all right, but i'm not sure how to detail it - i.e. determining how someone "fucked up" because then we would like need to have bad performance incurr actual punishment and thus would need to measure individual performance in some way which i don't know how to do in a scalable way yet.
Well, you could do it based on whether they get striked in that time (just from a behavior point of view). I think at this point, the idea of tiers changing the quality of ranked should probably be abandoned since it clearly didn't work... so using a probationary period to make sure the new guy doesn't dick around and do dumb shit would make sense before promoting him to a full BN.Okorin wrote:
The tier split was a measure that was trialed and labeled as optional from our side so I am not too sad about seeing it go away. A probationary system itself seems all right, but i'm not sure how to detail it - i.e. determining how someone "fucked up" because then we would like need to have bad performance incurr actual punishment and thus would need to measure individual performance in some way which i don't know how to do in a scalable way yet.
as far as i know, some amount of weighting will happen if both qats and bns are votingChromoxx wrote:
weight QAT votes
A new BN addition round will begin immediately. The new members will enter at the probationary level.considering there's a bn addition round for non-standard modes in progress and starting another one at the same time is impractical, "immediately" isn't gonna happen
The most active BN member every 6 months as determined by a composite consideration of successfully qualified beatmaps and overall modding activity will receive the "Elite Nominator" titleyou already know that high activity isn't the best determining factor, so i'm gonna assume this is just a poorly worded way of saying "highest scoring BN according to the formulas being organized by jbh"
Divisions will be merged together into larger but separate units based on overall activity, with attention paid to common cooperation and friendships existing between divisions at the moment. This one is a bit nebulous and may require further consideration.i agree with that last sentence. "larger but separate units based on overall activity" has me pretty confused. like, bigger groups means less active participation per person, which isn't great, and does "overall activity" mean organizing people according to how interested they are in bn activity? i don't really know lol. i personally think the size of groups is okay right now, though their members could use rearranging in some situations.
The 'report a map' thread will be closed, and the functionality shifted to a 'report this map' button on the beatmap's web page. These reports will coalesce at certain thresholds within the #qat channel on the osu! internal discord, and all QAT will be expected to review these maps for potential issues as soon as they notice them.i must have overlooked this whole paragraph when i first read this because i didn't realize how potentially annoying it is. the "report this map" button will need an option to write the reasons why a map is being reported, or the possibility of linking to forum/moddingv2 posts. if it doesn't allow that, it won't be at all useful, since qats will have to check an entire mapset instead of the map's specific issues. if this is just a different way to notify qats of the current types of reports, i'm okay with it
QAT will also be strongly encouraged to consider minimalist revisions of the current Ranking Criteria to promote higher quality beatmaps while removing unnecessary roadblocks to having alternate mapping styles enter Ranked. They will do so under the leadership of a self-appointed leader(s), explained more below.this is already happening for the standard-specific ranking criteria, which probably needed it the most. i'm not disagreeing with this -- i'm just letting people know
Dissolution of the current BN tiering systemThis was actually discussed in the last meeting we had. It's a great responsability to join the BNG and newcomers should take their time in order to get used to their new function. As a reference when I joined the BAT a few years ago there was a non-written rule that newcomers weren't allowed to icon anything for at least 1 week, so they get used to their new work environment and read up the needed info.
The current BN tiering system will be dissolved, and replaced with a probationary system.
New BN will enter the system at this probationary level. We will call it 'T1' just for the sake of familiarity. All existing BN will be promoted to 'full members' (aka, T2) and will be allowed to both qualify and bubble maps at will.
Probationary members will not be permitted to qualify - only to bubble. The probation period will not exceed longer than a 2 month timeframe, with most people ideally out of probation after QAT review after a one month time period.
Full members may be reduced to the probationary level at any time by QAT consensus if their conduct is deemed unacceptable, or they repeatedly make large mistakes or oversights.
Probationary members that prove problematic for whatever reason will be opened up to a QAT consensus vote for dismissal from the BN. This must pass with a significant majority (66%+).
A new BN addition round will begin immediately. The new members will enter at the probationary level.
Beatmap Nominator acknowledgementThe purple color and the usertitle were proposed already like... a year ago or something? I believe it was an almost unanimous consensus but it was turned down by the dev's side back then. Even if the new webpage is under developement, making a tiny change in the old one as this shouldn't be such a fuzz.
Full members of the Beatmap Nominators (aka: not probationary members) will once again receive a forum title and the purple name they were once known for in the past.
Probationary members do not receive this until they become a full member.
This is a temporary change and will not be carried over into the new system. Nominators under the new system (new being the automated system referenced in the past) will receive a different form of visual identification, yet to be determined.
This way, people that find BN via the forums will know that purple equals someone that can help. There will be no need to consult tier lists or anything of the sort.
In addition, long-serving BN (>1.5 years) will qualify for a special title which they may choose to have applied to their account when they retire. What this will be is still being considered, but probably something involving community and modding somehow.
Beatmap Nominator rewardsThere's currently an active discussion about this topic within the BNs/QATs and opinions are getting gathered. JBH will handle the whereabouts of the modding activity, pondering the factors that might influence on it.
The most active BN member every 6 months as determined by a composite consideration of successfully qualified beatmaps and overall modding activity will receive the "Elite Nominator" title permanently, and 6 months of osu! supporter, plus 3 months that they may gift to any of their friends.
This will also be featured as a standalone news announcement complete with social media advertisement.
Other rewards will be considered as time goes on and new systems are announced.
DivisionsSome of the divisions were merged already, but it only occured on catch and mania by now. I'd rather wait up until the new BNs come to see if merging some other divisions would be possible.
Divisions will be merged together into larger but separate units based on overall activity, with attention paid to common cooperation and friendships existing between divisions at the moment.
This one is a bit nebulous and may require further consideration.
QAT changesLet me be clear about this. QATs were NEVER discouraged or prohibited to actively participate in the ranking process of a beatmap. On the contrary, I'd just quote one of our concepts while joining the QAT: "QATs, as former members of the BNG, are still allowed to participate in the ranking process of the beatmaps and therefore it's encouraged that you still mod and qualify beatmaps on your own accord."
QAT will be no longer barred (or discouraged) from bubbling, qualifying, or vetting qualified maps on their own.
The 'report a map' thread will be closed, and the functionality shifted to a 'report this map' button on the beatmap's web page. These reports will coalesce at certain thresholds within the #qat channel on the osu! internal discord, and all QAT will be expected to review these maps for potential issues as soon as they notice them.
QAT will be encouraged to return to checking qualified maps of their own initiative and interest, and a solution will be made to try to automatically allocated newly qualified maps to certain divisions for checking and approval.
My current idea for this is a Discord bot will notify divisions in their channels when a newly qualified map is assigned to them. I'm open to other ideas.
QAT will also be strongly encouraged to consider minimalist revisions of the current Ranking Criteria to promote higher quality beatmaps while removing unnecessary roadblocks to having alternate mapping styles enter Ranked. They will do so under the leadership of a self-appointed leader(s), explained more below.
QAT rewardsAnother topic that got proposed while ago, but just got applied to members that made in a certain period of time an "outstanding contribution" but got turned down to get applied for the "long-standing contributors".
Long-standing members of the QAT (>2 years) will receive a profile badge denoting their tenure and marking anything significant they achieved during their time on the team.
They will be afforded a permanent place on the osu! Alumni should they choose to retire. They will also receive osu! supporter equivalent to the length of their service on the team once they retire.
Some of this is already the case, but I figured I'd state it again just to make people aware.
Returning agencyI'm okay with the idea of getting a leader that can get a direct communication with the higher staff. It's in fact one of my concerns that we could only rely on Loctav/Ephemeral as they work actively with the devs, instead of letting us know beforehand which of the proposals could even get implemented, as most of them would need some coding abilities and/or implementation in the webpage.
Should this proposal pass in full, the leadership and direction of the QAT will no longer be determined by a nebulous group of people officiated by the "staff".
The leader(s) will be determined by an expression of interest, followed by a combined vote from both the QAT and the Beatmap Nominators. The top scoring aspirants will be considered the de-facto QAT leadership, though they may number no greater than two.
Before clarifying this further, you must all understand that the BN/QAT system is a system in flux. It has been a standalone 'workaround' to the non-availability of an automated system that is supposed to fully regulate BN appointment automatically, with the QAT designed to fill a literal quality assurance role in that regard. It will change significantly from what it currently is at some point in the near future. When that time is exactly, none of us can say.
The scope of the QAT's leadership will be largely limited to day-to-day affairs and ensuring the smooth addition to and running of the Beatmap Nominators. QAT leadership will be expected to engage with both the Beatmap Nominators and the QAT as a whole, and generally be active and engaged members of the community of their own right.
The QAT leadership will work closely with a member of the osu! team to help them get things going and to provide consul for any systemic changes they may wish to make.
For the time being, that member will be me (Ephemeral). Understand however, that I will not be assuming direct leadership of the QAT under any circumstances bar an absolute necessity. My time has long since passed, and it is well past time for the newer members of the community to begin having their say in the game's future direction.
itsBubblun wrote:
The most active BN will be determined every 6 months via a composite consideration of successfully qualified beatmaps and overall modding activity, and will receive the Elite Nominator title plus suitable accolades for their efforts.'Successful qualifications' need to go. There's only so many maps that deserve to be qualified, so when those maps get qualified, what maps are the bns going to look at? They might resort to qualifying unfitting maps. Qualtiy is a subjective term, but Modding activity is more accurate because mods can be analyzed for proper reasoning despite how much of the mod was applied, so I think this should be kept. One form of activity I'd like to add is participation in events. As in, bns who become judges of tournaments receive 'extra credit' for example.
Second, it's about the bn awards. I'm glad the staff have noticed motivation as an issue, but I still question it's effectiveness.
I feel bns & qat should be paid for their activity. Whether it be actual money or osu supporter, they need some form of consistent payment. A tag is cool, but then what's after that? Having a monthly payment or award would encourage them to stay active. The bns do work that a game developer would make money off of, so I think this is where they lose motivation.
Please don't assume that everyone thinks the way you (and certain other people that speak out in public) do. The tier change has improved the quality of ranking in a sense that there are less maps qualified that were considered "very bad" by the community - The border isn't very clear, but if you look at the reports lately you'll notice 99% of them are about more minor things than we had before the tier split.Naotoshi wrote:
I think at this point, the idea of tiers changing the quality of ranked should probably be abandoned since it clearly didn't work...
In addition, long-serving BN (>1.5 years) will qualify for a special title which they may choose to have applied to their account when they retire. What this will be is still being considered, but probably something involving community and modding somehow.While I agree that awarding long-serving members of BN (or QAT) is a good thing that gives these people something permanent once they retire but it doesn't really help them in any way. Of course, if I retired, I'd be much happier to have a permanent title than nothing, but these people could also be given an opportunity to return to the BN without as many restrictions as other people. e.g. Taking a half year or even a year break will not make you forget all the modding/nomination process, so you could easily enter the probationary BN. (And for these people, the 2 month period could be shortened) I'm not saying that every BN that has been in BN for 1.5 should be able to leave and enter BN as they'd like to, but returning after a break shouldn't be such a big deal if they were reliable in past.
Divisions will be merged together into larger but separate units based on overall activity, with attention paid to common cooperation and friendships existing between divisions at the moment.I'm a little bit afraid of this one. I don't know how much larger units it should be, so maybe it's not that bad, but I've seen more communication in the small subdivision than I've seen for my entire BN membership. You get to know to people in smaller groups much easier and you are more likely to actually work together. I personally consider a small group to be a very good option as with larger groups, a serious communication is rarely established.
oh, i was under the impression that the probation period was only going to apply to the mode with tiering currently. applying to everything does make a lot more sense though, so i'm all for thatDeif wrote:
I have to disagree with pishifat's statement though, the probation time should be implemented asap with the current non-standard cycle. I don't see the point in waiting for the next applications to get this done.
Wafu wrote:
I'm a little bit afraid of this one. I don't know how much larger units it should be, so maybe it's not that bad, but I've seen more communication in the small subdivision than I've seen for my entire BN membership. You get to know to people in smaller groups much easier and you are more likely to actually work together. I personally consider a small group to be a very good option as with larger groups, a serious communication is rarely established.
Sadly, from the past till present day, there is obvious inner circlejerk group within BN/QAT which just push maps made by certain mappers without even taking quality into consideration, not mention players community voice and negative feedback. I highly doubt this change will ever take a place to remove this behavior, it sounds more like "calming words for enraged community which complain about lately terrible quality of maps and inflating pp map meta".Ephemeral wrote:
- QAT will be freed from administrative obligation (regarding busywork and the like) and will be encouraged to check qualified maps of their own volition again. A new reporting system will be linked to the internal QAT channels, allowing them to fill their primary obligation as members of the team - to respond to complaints about improperly qualified maps.
- QAT will be encouraged to consider minimalist revisions of the current Ranking Criteria to promote higher quality beatmaps whilst also removing unnecessary roadblocks to alternate mapping styles entering Ranked
- The de-facto leadership of the QAT will be determined by applicants expressing their interest, and placing themselves before a combined vote of the BN and QAT. The top two applicants will be considered as the QAT leadership, and will work closely with a member of the osu! team (myself, currently) to see the day-to-day affairs of running the team kept in order, and also to tackle any issues that may arise.
oopsxxdeathx wrote:
I still question it's effectiveness.
its
Couldn't agree more. So yeah, I'll give my opinion to the proposal too:Deif wrote:
To be honest, I'm sick and tired of getting blamed for not being transparent enough towards other members of the modding community.
Dissolution of the current BN tiering systemWe discussed the probation period thing in the last meeting and I'm all for it. One potential problem I have is the "All existing BN will be promoted to 'full members'" thing as I think that we should not just blindly "promote" all of our current BNs. In my opinion, it might be better to look at all current T1s and decide case by case who we can put into the "regular members" already and who we'd like to go into the probation period first in order to prove themselves again.
The current BN tiering system will be dissolved, and replaced with a probationary system.
New BN will enter the system at this probationary level. We will call it 'T1' just for the sake of familiarity. All existing BN will be promoted to 'full members' (aka, T2) and will be allowed to both qualify and bubble maps at will.
Probationary members will not be permitted to qualify - only to bubble. The probation period will not exceed longer than a 2 month timeframe, with most people ideally out of probation after QAT review after a one month time period.
Full members may be reduced to the probationary level at any time by QAT consensus if their conduct is deemed unacceptable, or they repeatedly make large mistakes or oversights.
Probationary members that prove problematic for whatever reason will be opened up to a QAT consensus vote for dismissal from the BN. This must pass with a significant majority (66%+).
A new BN addition round will begin immediately. The new members will enter at the probationary level.
Beatmap Nominator acknowledgementI think proposing this again and again already dates back to 2014, so yeah, I think it's about time that they get it. I don't really see why we'd do it temporarely though, can't we carry it over to the new website like QAT/GMT colours and titles?
Full members of the Beatmap Nominators (aka: not probationary members) will once again receive a forum title and the purple name they were once known for in the past.
Probationary members do not receive this until they become a full member.
This is a temporary change and will not be carried over into the new system. Nominators under the new system (new being the automated system referenced in the past) will receive a different form of visual identification, yet to be determined.
This way, people that find BN via the forums will know that purple equals someone that can help. There will be no need to consult tier lists or anything of the sort.
In addition, long-serving BN (>1.5 years) will qualify for a special title which they may choose to have applied to their account when they retire. What this will be is still being considered, but probably something involving community and modding somehow.
Beatmap Nominator rewardsNot really sure what to think about the Elite Nominator title being handed out for activity only as Elite to me rather means that they are good with what they are doing rather than spamming mods like a machine. Otherwise, I'm fine with the concept.
The most active BN member every 6 months as determined by a composite consideration of successfully qualified beatmaps and overall modding activity will receive the "Elite Nominator" title permanently, and 6 months of osu! supporter, plus 3 months that they may gift to any of their friends.
This will also be featured as a standalone news announcement complete with social media advertisement.
Other rewards will be considered as time goes on and new systems are announced.
DivisionsWe are already discussing how we could make the divisions function better. I don't really think merging them is that reasonable though if we'd actually for example make them optional, i.e. making BNs who want to be loners work alone and let BNs who want to work together form a division under a voluntary QAT lead. But yeah, I agree with reworking the division system in general.
Divisions will be merged together into larger but separate units based on overall activity, with attention paid to common cooperation and friendships existing between divisions at the moment.
This one is a bit nebulous and may require further consideration.
QAT changesI mean we were never discouraged from bubbling or qualifying but yeah, I don't think it's bad to allow QATs to disqualify on their own again (in case we are allowed to).
QAT will be no longer barred (or discouraged) from bubbling, qualifying, or vetting qualified maps on their own.
The 'report a map' thread will be closed, and the functionality shifted to a 'report this map' button on the beatmap's web page. These reports will coalesce at certain thresholds within the #qat channel on the osu! internal discord, and all QAT will be expected to review these maps for potential issues as soon as they notice them.
QAT will be encouraged to return to checking qualified maps of their own initiative and interest, and a solution will be made to try to automatically allocated newly qualified maps to certain divisions for checking and approval.
My current idea for this is a Discord bot will notify divisions in their channels when a newly qualified map is assigned to them. I'm open to other ideas.
QAT will also be strongly encouraged to consider minimalist revisions of the current Ranking Criteria to promote higher quality beatmaps while removing unnecessary roadblocks to having alternate mapping styles enter Ranked. They will do so under the leadership of a self-appointed leader(s), explained more below.
I think this is a really good idea and some divisions like oko's and mine partially already do this with members highlighting the division once they icon or in my division we recently put the bot into our channel to show eachother what the division members are doing.Deif wrote:
I'd like to propose that the qualified map nominated by certain division shall be checked by the same division (eg if Bonsai qualifies a map, Okorin should be notified in this case). That way we'd kill two birds with the same stone: A fairly high amount of qualified maps (if not all) would be revised, and also the subdivision leaders would have a better overview about what their members nominate.
QAT rewardsNothing to say here, totally fine.
Long-standing members of the QAT (>2 years) will receive a profile badge denoting their tenure and marking anything significant they achieved during their time on the team.
They will be afforded a permanent place on the osu! Alumni should they choose to retire. They will also receive osu! supporter equivalent to the length of their service on the team once they retire.
Some of this is already the case, but I figured I'd state it again just to make people aware.
Returning agencyI don't really see a problem here with having QAT leaders themselves but I voiced these concerns before and I'm still holding on to them: I think that if we have BNs vote, it will end up as a popularity contest and that will result most likely in a non-functioning leadership.
Should this proposal pass in full, the leadership and direction of the QAT will no longer be determined by a nebulous group of people officiated by the "staff".
The leader(s) will be determined by an expression of interest, followed by a combined vote from both the QAT and the Beatmap Nominators. The top scoring aspirants will be considered the de-facto QAT leadership, though they may number no greater than two.
Before clarifying this further, you must all understand that the BN/QAT system is a system in flux. It has been a standalone 'workaround' to the non-availability of an automated system that is supposed to fully regulate BN appointment automatically, with the QAT designed to fill a literal quality assurance role in that regard. It will change significantly from what it currently is at some point in the near future. When that time is exactly, none of us can say.
The scope of the QAT's leadership will be largely limited to day-to-day affairs and ensuring the smooth addition to and running of the Beatmap Nominators. QAT leadership will be expected to engage with both the Beatmap Nominators and the QAT as a whole, and generally be active and engaged members of the community of their own right.
The QAT leadership will work closely with a member of the osu! team to help them get things going and to provide consul for any systemic changes they may wish to make.
For the time being, that member will be me (Ephemeral). Understand however, that I will not be assuming direct leadership of the QAT under any circumstances bar an absolute necessity. My time has long since passed, and it is well past time for the newer members of the community to begin having their say in the game's future direction.
tl;dr: is aight, some problemsKondou-Shinichi wrote:
is there a TL;DR of this TL;DR?
If you're still picking T1's then it's not probationary and you're still trying to keep the tiering system. You should read this change as "tiering system is gone" not "tiering system is now more lenient". I think you misunderstood the point if you are fine with it :\. Only new BN's would be on probation which makes sense since they are new. If you have issues with current BN's why not talk to them instead of trying to keep them from being full members? You're trying to be transparent right? So maybe you can discuss with them instead of judging them without letting them know what qualms you have with their current mode of operation. As well, how do you judge how BN's would have "proven" themselves? By only nominating maps you think are high quality? What if they have a different definition of quality to you? Many of the new BN's who got in through the BN Tests have been following your guys' concepts of "high quality maps" for too long, and it's caused mapping to become stale. Don't expect that to continue. There used to be multiple definitions. Now, mapping quality has become too streamlined.Mao wrote:
We discussed the probation period thing in the last meeting and I'm all for it. One potential problem I have is the "All existing BN will be promoted to 'full members'" thing as I think that we should not just blindly "promote" all of our current BNs. In my opinion, it might be better to look at all current T1s and decide case by case who we can put into the "regular members" already and who we'd like to go into the probation period first in order to prove themselves again.
So yeah but all in all, I'm fine with this point.
First of all, what's wrong with a popularity contest? QAT's like pishifat and Okorin are popular because they put themselves forward, and are a lot more transparent in what they do. They are also a lot more active at least from what we can see as BN's and mappers. Maybe it's time you guys stopped being all secretive?Mao wrote:
I don't really see a problem here with having QAT leaders themselves but I voiced these concerns before and I'm still holding on to them: I think that if we have BNs vote, it will end up as a popularity contest and that will result most likely in a non-functioning leadership.
So yeah, I'm against this point for now, not because of the idea of a leadership but because of the way these leaders are elected.
Mao wrote:
Deif wrote:
To be honest, I'm sick and tired of getting blamed for not being transparent enough towards other members of the modding community.
Couldn't agree more. So yeah, I'll give my opinion to the proposal too:
You shouldn't assume the tier shift has improved mapping quality either. That's a really big assumption... Nao's assumption is at least built on the fact that 99% of people here support abandoning the tier shift. (It's not actually 99%, i'm just using your rhetoric ;3)Desperate-kun wrote:
Please don't assume that everyone thinks the way you (and certain other people that speak out in public) do. The tier change has improved the quality of ranking in a sense that there are less maps qualified that were considered "very bad" by the community - The border isn't very clear, but if you look at the reports lately you'll notice 99% of them are about more minor things than we had before the tier split.Naotoshi wrote:
I think at this point, the idea of tiers changing the quality of ranked should probably be abandoned since it clearly didn't work...
To remain the quality standard we have, or even improve it, while implementing the proposed system, the QATs will need to make sure to find a method of selecting those BNs that isn't just "anyone who didn't get striked", otherwise this is a huge step backwards. The actual maps those people qualified need to be taken into account.
99%? You should check the thread again. Many of the issues that were reported in the thread were also reported even before the tier shift.Desp wrote:
The border isn't very clear, but if you look at the reports lately you'll notice 99% of them are about more minor things than we had before the tier split.
I'm actually really looking forward to this. Mapping has become stale, and you can see that in the community response. Quality is good in most maps, but mapping is too streamlined towards a certain "high quality standard" through correct emphasis, aesthetics, slider designs, flows, etc... The issue really is that right there is "the quality standard" as in only one standard of quality, whereas previously there were others. Look at old maps since you seem to enjoy them. Spacing was a lot more radical, and emphasis wasn't always correct. Some old chinese mappers, AngelHoney/fanzhen/kiddly had a habit of emphasizing red-ticks in jump patterns instead of white ticks which for mappers today is "incorrect emphasis, since white ticks are stronger". But they were (and still are) great maps to play. New Gravity is still one of my favourites, and it employs this red-tick jump idea.Desp wrote:
To remain the quality standard we have, or even improve it, while implementing the proposed system, the QATs will need to make sure to find a method of selecting those BNs that isn't just "anyone who didn't get striked", otherwise this is a huge step backwards. The actual maps those people qualified need to be taken into account.
I would remind this to MrMonstrata, it seems it has been forgotten alreadyEphemeral wrote:
Refrain from commenting on other's opinions or the like for the time being - we'll have an open-ended discussion thread on that at a later date.
Dissolution of the current BN tiering systemI can't say much for this as a non-standard division leader, but I do agree with the proposed probation system. New BNs will need to tinker with their new tools and get accustomed into the rules and guidelines of being a BN to determine whether or not they actually fit as a member of the BNG. I think 1-2 months is a good enough timeframe to decide that.
The current BN tiering system will be dissolved, and replaced with a probationary system.
New BN will enter the system at this probationary level. We will call it 'T1' just for the sake of familiarity. All existing BN will be promoted to 'full members' (aka, T2) and will be allowed to both qualify and bubble maps at will.
Probationary members will not be permitted to qualify - only to bubble. The probation period will not exceed longer than a 2 month timeframe, with most people ideally out of probation after QAT review after a one month time period.
Full members may be reduced to the probationary level at any time by QAT consensus if their conduct is deemed unacceptable, or they repeatedly make large mistakes or oversights.
Probationary members that prove problematic for whatever reason will be opened up to a QAT consensus vote for dismissal from the BN. This must pass with a significant majority (66%+).
A new BN addition round will begin immediately. The new members will enter at the probationary level.
Beatmap Nominator acknowledgementI think the name color was proposed before but somehow wasn't really implemented, though I'm not sure why these changes are only temporary and don't carry over to the new system. I don't think it should be that hard to implement name colors in the new website.
Full members of the Beatmap Nominators (aka: not probationary members) will once again receive a forum title and the purple name they were once known for in the past.
Probationary members do not receive this until they become a full member.
This is a temporary change and will not be carried over into the new system. Nominators under the new system (new being the automated system referenced in the past) will receive a different form of visual identification, yet to be determined.
This way, people that find BN via the forums will know that purple equals someone that can help. There will be no need to consult tier lists or anything of the sort.
In addition, long-serving BN (>1.5 years) will qualify for a special title which they may choose to have applied to their account when they retire. What this will be is still being considered, but probably something involving community and modding somehow.
Beatmap Nominator rewardsThis one is currently being discussed among the BNG/QAT. I don't really foresee titles being given out for people that only pass that threshold, and I believe there should be more variables taken into account in determining how BNs will get rewarded for it. (e.g. Did the map end up in the Spotlights? Did the BN qualify a map from a new mapper?)
The most active BN member every 6 months as determined by a composite consideration of successfully qualified beatmaps and overall modding activity will receive the "Elite Nominator" title permanently, and 6 months of osu! supporter, plus 3 months that they may gift to any of their friends.
This will also be featured as a standalone news announcement complete with social media advertisement.
Other rewards will be considered as time goes on and new systems are announced.
DivisionsAlready happened with catch and mania, and on my side it's actually much better than it was before. I do like that we're now able to communicate much better and that we're able to work together if some of us needed help with checking a map.
Divisions will be merged together into larger but separate units based on overall activity, with attention paid to common cooperation and friendships existing between divisions at the moment.
This one is a bit nebulous and may require further consideration.
QAT changesWe haven't been discouraged of modding / bubbling / qualifying for a long while now. In fact, we are actually encourage of doing them while we do other thing. This change was made around a year ago or so iirc.
QAT will be no longer barred (or discouraged) from bubbling, qualifying, or vetting qualified maps on their own.
The 'report a map' thread will be closed, and the functionality shifted to a 'report this map' button on the beatmap's web page. These reports will coalesce at certain thresholds within the #qat channel on the osu! internal discord, and all QAT will be expected to review these maps for potential issues as soon as they notice them.
QAT will be encouraged to return to checking qualified maps of their own initiative and interest, and a solution will be made to try to automatically allocated newly qualified maps to certain divisions for checking and approval.
My current idea for this is a Discord bot will notify divisions in their channels when a newly qualified map is assigned to them. I'm open to other ideas.
QAT will also be strongly encouraged to consider minimalist revisions of the current Ranking Criteria to promote higher quality beatmaps while removing unnecessary roadblocks to having alternate mapping styles enter Ranked. They will do so under the leadership of a self-appointed leader(s), explained more below.
QAT rewardsOverall agree to this. It's nice to feel rewarded for the stuff you do every once in a while, but only if you earned it.
Long-standing members of the QAT (>2 years) will receive a profile badge denoting their tenure and marking anything significant they achieved during their time on the team.
They will be afforded a permanent place on the osu! Alumni should they choose to retire. They will also receive osu! supporter equivalent to the length of their service on the team once they retire.
Some of this is already the case, but I figured I'd state it again just to make people aware.
Returning agencyI'm not sure how I feel about this one. If anything, QAT Leaders should be evaluated by the staff on how they work / act around others and how they're going to lead the whole BNG/QAT once they're appointed. I'm aware of the 'popularity contest' aspect that's been going around, but this voting system is more of a double-edged sword that can either be very beneficial in leading the whole BNG/QAT or can backfire in a way that things don't change or become worse.
Should this proposal pass in full, the leadership and direction of the QAT will no longer be determined by a nebulous group of people officiated by the "staff".
The leader(s) will be determined by an expression of interest, followed by a combined vote from both the QAT and the Beatmap Nominators. The top scoring aspirants will be considered the de-facto QAT leadership, though they may number no greater than two.
Before clarifying this further, you must all understand that the BN/QAT system is a system in flux. It has been a standalone 'workaround' to the non-availability of an automated system that is supposed to fully regulate BN appointment automatically, with the QAT designed to fill a literal quality assurance role in that regard. It will change significantly from what it currently is at some point in the near future. When that time is exactly, none of us can say.
The scope of the QAT's leadership will be largely limited to day-to-day affairs and ensuring the smooth addition to and running of the Beatmap Nominators. QAT leadership will be expected to engage with both the Beatmap Nominators and the QAT as a whole, and generally be active and engaged members of the community of their own right.
The QAT leadership will work closely with a member of the osu! team to help them get things going and to provide consul for any systemic changes they may wish to make.
For the time being, that member will be me (Ephemeral). Understand however, that I will not be assuming direct leadership of the QAT under any circumstances bar an absolute necessity. My time has long since passed, and it is well past time for the newer members of the community to begin having their say in the game's future direction.
BN members receive increased acknowledgement via a forum title and some sort of visual identification (currently a purple name a la MAT). This particular point is temporary and will not carry over into the 'moddingv2' version of the Beatmap Nominators.I always wonder why BNs didn't obtain this kind of identification like old MATs from the beginning of BN/QAT change. This would be 100% correct if it wasn't "temporary" but permanent. Do not forget that if we have the possibility to play every day some new qualified > ranked maps this is given by the BNs hard work that should be recognized by others as well. They deserve to be recognized with some different colour in the forum/game chat like old MATs system.
The most active BN will be determined every 6 months via a composite consideration of successfully qualified beatmaps and overall modding activity, and will receive the Elite Nominator title plus suitable accolades for their efforts.This is actually cool. This would push BNs to work more and better. I mean better because if this comes to be true they could try to nominate maps that are not 100% ready for ranking just to show their activities for the hunger of power making troubles with the future QATs' work. (Well I am kinda pessimist but we must see all the aspects of each propose).
QAT will be freed from administrative obligation (regarding busywork and the like) and will be encouraged to check qualified maps of their own volition again. A new reporting system will be linked to the internal QAT channels, allowing them to fill their primary obligation as members of the team - to respond to complaints about improperly qualified maps.Finally? I always wonder so far what QATs were related to mapping/modding system since they are doing only moderating actions.
QAT will be encouraged to consider minimalist revisions of the current Ranking Criteria to promote higher quality beatmaps whilst also removing unnecessary roadblocks to alternate mapping styles entering RankedThis is so cool. But being the BNs experienced modders and mappers as well they could contribuite to this too.
You are right by a side, but not on the other one. There are a lot of cases you mentioned that are true, but don't forget that BNs are anyways experienced mappers. If they get a map modded and even nominated by his BN friend, you can't do anything with this, but you can't even negate the fact that if they get the nomination this means that the map is ready to be qualified and ranked. You can not make this a BN's fault because when they mod a BN's map he is working for him like he does for everyone else.GaterRaider wrote:
An upheaval to me would require that the blatant favoritism amongst BNs is addressed. Quick bubbles are passed around as favors that will be returned in the future in some way or the other. I am not going to name people but public cases of this are well recorded and should be no surprise to anyone. I don't even want to know how bad this truly is when you are an insider that has access to these advantages.
The problem is that nominators are naturally mappers and have a lot of influence in the ranking process. This creates an obvious incentive for favoritism to help each other out with their own maps. When those who are in charge of running the system are actively participating in it as individuals themselves then there are going to be problems.
Connections are too big of a driver in the current ranking process. Those with access to the people in charge are highly advantaged compared to those that do not. When getting hold of a BN is incredibly frustrating for some, while others can simply post a short message in a private discord server to get things rolling quickly I do not consider it a fair system.
the more things change the more they remain the same imo, just under a different name from beforeMashley wrote:
jeez, I struggle to understand how this stuff works any more. It's weird how this system's been constantly reworked for like a decade and all that's happened is it's gotten progressively more complicated and confusing without, as far as I can tell, getting much more efficient.