aesthetics is pretty subjective
fieryrage wrote:
playability > aesthetics
edit: ok there's actually things wrong with this map, wtf is wrong with the hitsounding and ncs and what are the streams even following lol
goes from vocals to guitars to drums and where is the consistency hello
You can put forward detailed suggestions. But I can also refute you. This map has been prepared for a year, each mapper's style is not the same. I have my own understanding and explanation for the map, I can't guarantee that you will agree with me, but I can promise to tell you what I think.idke wrote:
i believe this can be ranked someday, but not now especially with many questionable flaws included in the map.
emmmm....Xexxar wrote:
01:55:474 (7,8,1) - isnt this just emphasizing 8 because u simply ran out of room in the editor due to poor stream placement management
01:55:024 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - 01:55:624 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - In fact, this is a set of accelerated sounds .about this sharp angle. I don't think there is any problem. because 01:54:949 (16,1,8,1) - Here, as the beginning of the acceleration, it is also an acute angle . but this looks, is not very molimen
02:51:649 (4,8,12,16) - vs 02:53:524 (13) - what is the reason for this difference is stream design? lol..I think this should be a classic part, not a mistake. This paragraph follows the guitar.Toy's Mod mentioned it here .and I like it
03:42:274 (7) - red tick vs 03:42:949 (16) - blue tick in the same combo ?? 03:42:274 (7) - watch the difference in guitar 03:42:949 (16,1) -The definition of the turning point of the tail and head is very vague .Because they're turning at the point of stress, In fact, I can explain that since 03:43:024 (1) is stress, it is connected to the acute part .and 03:42:274 (7) - I can explain that it's stressed, so I'm just pausing for a shot, and then connecting the acute angle. It doesn't make sense because they're all in the spinning part
i dont rly care how you want to prioritize rhythms, whether that be forcing direction change after the blue tick to emphasize a change in movement before the white tick / red, or if you want highlight it by making the red / white tick be the corner of the stream, but you need to be consistent with it and especially shouldnt be doing these changes in the same combo. But about turning, I'm not thinking about defining the stress as the center, or the head at the next sharp angle .In my opinion, they just need to do something about the turning point
04:58:324 (7,8,1) - this flow makes me a sad boy emmm.....If you want, i can really drop 04:58:474 (8) - a little .But now I don't feel necessary
thx.But I chose to keep my point of view .Lasse wrote:
didn't expect it to get qualified so fast after bubble, even less so as it is right now..
I called for you, but you didn't pay attention to me
hitsounding
why are you using edm kick samples as hitnormal, that sounds so unfitting with this song
using some non-electronic kick samples would make much more sense
04:22:624 - using hihat hitnormals in parts like this also makes no sense with the song, there are drum and guitar 1/4 but basically adding a 1/4 hihat layer with hitsounds sounds horrible
similar for the intro/part until first kiai
and parts like 01:17:824 - etc.
not using cymbal samples (like default soft finish) in a song that uses them quite frequently also seems really lacking
I don't quite follow you . Is this denying all sound effects...? I can't guarantee that everyone sounds good .at least these sound effects are regular .Hummm... I've changed my hitnormal once. At least it's not bad now. If you have a better hitnormal.please send it to me
streams
your stream emphasis is all over the place in many spots
just from looking at parts like 03:41:824 - 03:49:024 -
things like 03:42:274 (7,8) - are emphasized a lot for whatever reason but then 03:42:424 (9) - isn't all, even though it stands out much more in the song and your hitsounding
then 03:42:949 (16,1) - 03:43:549 (8,9) - 03:44:149 (16,1) - actually make sense, but for some reason you do nothing on 03:44:824 (9) - 03:45:349 (16,1) - etc
03:46:024 (9,11) - are hitsounded to somehow stand out, but your patterning doesn't make them stand out in any way
u overlooked an important piece of information .03:46:174 (11) - this .It's the last repetition 03:46:024 (9,11,13) - 03:44:824 (9,13) - 03:43:624 (9,13) - 03:42:424 (9,13) - In the next paragraph. a change has taken place 03:46:624 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16) -
So it's changed at the end of the paragraph
I mean these things could work if you actually were consistent with them, but emphasizing like half of the stronger beats and ignoring the other half makes no sense
That's a very good suggestion, but about this. I just cut the same paragraph very thin. So that it looks very random. maybe it makes you feel a little confused... Emmm... I'll try to get someone to understand my audio model .mrsergio and I discussed the problem
00:08:749 (16,1) - this is suddenly using such an outstanding angle when you didn't do that on all the strong beats before is ?? 00:08:749 (16,1) - 00:09:874 (15,1) - 00:11:149 (16,1) - 00:12:349 (16,1) - If I say it's a twist, I don't know if you can accept it .yes, I can start with an acute angle from the front, but I didn't do that. Is consistency necessary here? 00:06:124 (13,14,15,16,1,2,3,4,5) - 00:07:324 (13,14,15,16,1,2,3,4,5) - If you need, I can even explain these two as buffering because their angles are getting sharper and sharper .but it doesn't make sense, you know. If I keep the consistency here, it will become very single. streams lost his mind
these issues are mainly relating to when you use such inconsistent concept of (not)emphasizing stuff during the same stream, and how you decide to do it.
changing things up a bit for different parts etc. is alright though, especially for a long song with so many streams
perhaps the consistency for many people is a must. But this is not blindly believe the reason. Most of the time, what we see is quite different .
more things
00:47:824 (6) - is putting lots of emphasis on the 1/2 ticks with hitsounding but mapped tapping rhythm doesn't fit, this would be much better as two 1/4 sliders I don't deny your point of view, but I don't think it's bad right now .00:47:824 (6) - This can be seen as a pause .00:48:124 (1,2) - give the player a better response to this place .
03:55:024 (1) - should probably be 1/4, the guitar is not that clear, but sounds better on 1/4 as the important guitar beats seem pretty close to 03:55:174 - and 03:55:249 - , together with clear drums on 03:55:174 -
hummmm... This place is very blurry, because I really follow the guitar .I think if I use a 1/2 slider. Plus a note. here will become very strange. But if 1/3, it will not be so molimen .03:55:324 (1) - because the two sounds coincide here But I still have a choice, if you think so https://puu.sh/x8aMM/47defe6647.png
04:19:924 (13,14,15,16) - this doesn't give enough hitsound feedback, 10% is way too low, fadeout you put here should just se smaller steps as the ones before are really hard to hear
but this is a diminishing process.a gradual process of decline .04:19:924 (13,14,15,16) - they all added finish.and there's a rising sound in
the map uses some nice ideas, but it seems to really lack in how they were executed
fieryrage wrote:
ok i have to make a separate post for this
- 1) why are your finish hitsounds overused in the kiais? it makes playing this song without your hitsounds feel like complete ass because all i can hear is just "pop pop pop pop" where there should be vocals and, you know, not finishes
no
2) on the topic of hitsounds, WHY are the whistles substitute clap hitsounds? what is even the purpose of doing that, just make them actual whistles or some other sound besides a snare
no
3) why do your streams in the kiai follow vocals at some points in terms of spacing changes but then go to drums like 01:01:624 (1) - here during this entire stream?
no
4) what's wrong with your nc's like 00:51:724 (1,1) - this literally screams unpolished 00:51:874 (1) - This NC is consistent for the number of streams .00:51:874 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14) - 00:53:224 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14) -
5) 00:55:624 (1,2,3,4,5) - where is the emphasis on literally any of these patterns? because 00:57:124 (1,2,3,4) - you seem 00:58:024 (1,2,3,4,5) - to be 00:59:524 (2,3,4,5,6,7) - changing 01:07:624 (1,2) - emphasis 01:19:024 (1,2,3,4) - quite 01:20:524 (2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - a 01:22:324 (1,2,3,4,5) - lot
no
6) 01:19:924 (6,7,8,9) - this is not straight, unpolished, although this is more of a minor thing anyway
no
7) 01:22:624 (4) - nc every downbeat but then this isn't? what? I can't understand why I need Nc here
8) 01:28:624 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - this blatantly ignores rhythm for no reason, same thing with the next pattern, you could be following vocals or guitar here but it's just 1/4 spam??? 01:27:424 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - 01:29:824 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Really?
9) 02:15:424 (1) - what the absolute fuck is this no
10) 02:25:024 (1) - hitsounds randomly get 30% louder here?? no
11) 02:28:024 (2,3) - 02:29:224 (2,3) - these are the same distance but different gaps in rhythm, why? no
12) 02:41:824 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - don't you think this is a TINY bit overmapped considering the part before it?
Is this really overmapped? There is enough intense guitar sound to support this paragraph
12) 02:45:274 (4,1) - why? no, like, genuinely, why? how do you imagine this as a playable pattern? you're introducing a concept like this 3 minutes into the map, you are LITERALLY asking for people to break here no
13) 02:51:424 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16) - i've legitimately seen more structured stream patterns from unranked mappers, like 02:51:724 (5) - why isn't the direction change on the white ticks? it shouldn't be on the blue ticks, that ignores rhythm entirely no
14) 02:55:624 (1,2,3) - yeah, no, please actually stop doing this, your map is unplayable at this point no
not to mention the fact that the 100 bpm sections aren't even warranted considering the only things mapped in those sections are spinners, it should be a consistent 200 bpm throughout the entire song no
i seriously can't be bothered to look at this map more, it's not ready for ranking at all. the fact this even was considered as anything near a rankable map basically just proves the existence of a double-standard in the mapping community, as if it weren't proven already by monstrata being able to rank literally fucking anything
Yes, you're too lazy to look at this map. So what are you writing so much for? Do you promote your sense of being? Or just because your high ranking can do this? This is not an mod.
why did this get through with like 10 mods it so very clearly needs a LOT more than that?
ill keep that in mind thanks!!!Natsu wrote:
If the mod is disrespectful then the mapper don't need to reply to it
Mun wrote:
Whether the mod was respectful or not, the points it brings up are entirely valid, and just responding "no" is not a valid defense - just a segue into more shitfighting.
Shouldn't this be DQ'd until 09kami provides some sort of valid defense against the vehemently negative reaction this has received from mappers - something he has utterly failed to do?
MashaSG wrote:
Wtf is this guy ranking one of the most beautiful Dragonforce's song that badly and just answer to actual points in mods by copying "no"? Where is QAT members??? Many people ( even BNs and previous BNs ) have many suggestions for the map to increase it's quality, isn't this the reason to DQ this?
I'm sure this would got DQ in 2 days or so, but if it wouldn't, I will "join party" and write mod as well
Actually, I don't mind dq. if there's a better hitnormal. stubbornness doesn't make sense, but it takes better advice to break it . The map doesn't make everyone feel good. If it doesn't make you feel good, I'm sorry, but I hope you look at it in an objective way
fieryrage wrote:
6) 01:19:924 (6,7,8,9) - this is not straight, unpolished, although this is more of a minor thing anyway
I don't think it's a kind of mod.. Is it straight? Is it important?
12) 02:45:274 (4,1) - why? no, like, genuinely, why? how do you imagine this as a playable pattern? you're introducing a concept like this 3 minutes into the map, you are LITERALLY asking for people to break here
I can't understand why I can't do it here
thxNatsu wrote:
If the mod is disrespectful then the mapper don't need to reply to it
The fuck is this post? Go and post your concerns if you got some, saying it in this way looks like you implying you can scare people with your mod lmaoMashaSG wrote:
Wtf is this guy ranking one of the most beautiful Dragonforce's song that badly and just answer to actual points in mods by copying "no"? Where is QAT members??? Many people ( even BNs and previous BNs ) have many suggestions for the map to increase it's quality, isn't this the reason to DQ this?
I'm sure this would got DQ in 2 days or so, but if it wouldn't, I will "join party" and write mod as well
Raiden wrote:
I would also like to point out that the switch to 200 should be at 02:41:824 - . Currently there are double the necessary downbeats
Reset back to 100 at 03:22:624 -
And back to 200 at 03:37:024 -
Current timing playwise is fine but musical accuracy is ignored
(also for extra accuracy 01:17:824 - red line with 200 for "NC friendliness" or "metronome reset";
similarly 02:44:224 - here)
gratz tho, more DragonForce is always welcome 👀
It's a good discussion. I'd be happy to answer youKagetsu wrote:
hmm... the thing that bothers me the most about this map is the lack of contrast between intense and non-intense beats. the streams are so poorly (in my opinion) implemented that it's difficult to actually feel the song when playing.
for example, around 04:29:674 - you start mapping an endless deathstream using only spacing changes in order to somehow represent the song variations, which sounds good on paper, but the thing you're ignoring here is that after such high density, the patterns start to feel difficult regardless of the spacing shifts. there's a guideline in the ranking criteria that states: "Avoid following multiple layers of the song if it is unclear what rhythm is prioritizing. Players should be able to discern what part of the song is being followed." which doesn't seem to be followed here, as it's pretty difficult to recognize what your arrangements are mapped to.
04:29:674 (1) - Hummm... I've thought about it. This section follows Voice ., but there's a section in the middle that I need to filter through 04:30:424 - 04:30:649 - There are several similar ones that are rhythmic only .I've thought that if the spacing is lowered, maybe people will understand that .But what I want to say is that the rhythm here is stream too .If change here, I think all of them need to be changed. And this change is the whole map.I think I have a clear purpose. It's part of the voice .I've made a lot of concessions about the difficulty. I don't think it's difficult for everyone to play now .what you said is a very good point of view .thx
other things i'd like to point:
most of your direction changes feel random in my opinion, your streams are extremely inconsistent on sections such as 03:41:824 - where things like 03:43:399 (6,7,8,9,10) - are tremendously difficult for no reason
well. all don't seem to like it here. I changed my angle to a very simple angle
your map contains a lot of snapping mistakes. i'm pretty sure that stuff like 03:01:924 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16) - 03:57:424 (1,2,3,4,5) - are 1/3.
no. I noticed in many places that the guitar was 1/3., but I only followed a small part .because I made a mistake on another map(https://osu.ppy.sh/s/459901). It's because of 1/3 .I always remember this mod. when you frequently switch between 1/3 and 1/4. in a stream, the player is very out of tune. This is not a good idea .switching between 1/4 and 1/3 will be difficult for players to master
Avoid following multiple layers of the song if it is unclear what rhythm is prioritizing. Players should be able to discern what part of the song is being followed."
and I think the red line sounds(no hitsounds) good enough to support these using 1/4
you have many streams that follow nothing. 04:11:824 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) - 02:45:424 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - just to mention a few
same
hummm...I didn't answer him. Just because he didn't put himself in a moder position. In fact, he had a lot of radical arguments, didn't he? I have revised some places that I think need to be modified .but it's not just his taunts. It's just that I think these places might do better .I am talking very calmly about it now. I just want to be respected as a mapper .I don't want this map to be commented on as worthless. If it really isn't worth it, I shouldn't pursue it with ranked as its goal .If everyone complains about it on a map of Qualified, its value will be reduced .I believe that no one wants to see . on. except to belittle it. It's difficult to make a good map , but also very happy . when someone loves your map .A mod is someone who gives you good advice .It's a kind of respect. Respect for maps .so I respect every moder .Even if opinions can not be unified, I also want to explain my ideas as much as possible. There are reasons for refusing .But the premise of all this is that this is a mod that respects mapsNaotoshi wrote:
the mapper should respond to all mods properly, respectful or not... ignoring them cuz he doesn't find them nice and coddling is stupid =D
I don't follow a fixed pendulum. It makes the map very boring, but I fix a rhythm at each section .same to stream. in my opinion, a lot of stream can do it in different ways .but this can become inconsistent in some people's eyes .This is not a kind of targeted speech. I mean. Everyone has different opinions .But I'm used to looking at this from a variety of perspectives .That's what I learned when I followed HW .Creation, change .sdafsf wrote:
i dont understand much about hitsounding but while this is disqualified i have concerns with the emphesis on the streams.
in some parts you accentuate beats by placing them on the turn of the stream like:
04:09:424 (1) - , 04:33:424 (1) - , 04:38:224 (1) - , 04:48:124 (1) -
04:09:424 (1) - emmm... I think it's ok. because of the shortening of the spacing 04:09:424 (1,2,3,4) -
04:33:424 (1) - About here. I can understand the idea at the time. The turning point in the white of the drums. 04:33:124 (13,14,15,16) - But you reminded me. I should slow down here .like 04:37:924 (13,14,15,16) -
04:38:224 (1) - Emmm... I may know why you have any doubts about these places . 04:38:224 - This place is a drum sound and coincides with the long sound of the human voice .when sufficient conditions are supported, this rotation gives the player an accelerated sense of power .Also, the deceleration ahead is enough to allow the player to adapt to this segment .
04:48:124 (1) - same
About the angle of the corner, I don't think it's necessary to adjust the angle to the same, because the only thing you need is to let the player feel the effect. Most of the same angle doesn't make sense
but in some parts you place the beat before the accentuated beat on the turn of the stream like:
03:43:024 (1) - , 03:43:624 (9) - 03:44:224 (1) - , 03:57:424 (1) - , etc.
on.I changed it here in the mod above
these are just some examples the it is incosistent throughout the whole map.
also i dont know why this is accentuated 03:42:274 (7) - .
03:42:424 (9) - this should be instead.
same
maybe im misunderstanding your structure. im interested in an explanation.
zigizigiefe wrote:
I would want to point out a consistency issue
00:45:874 (11) - You forgot to add clap sound as you did for 01:36:874 (1) - or 04:29:674 (1) - or other parts where Marc says "zone", so it doesn't emphasize "zone".
on.sorry .It was a mistake. I corrected it > <
Okorin wrote:
so why do you halve bpm on spinners to then immediately double it again?
i mean if you halve it it shoulda stayed halved until like 02:41:824 -
but even that doesnt seem necessary
There are some differences. I think I need to change the BPM to 100. BPM is now modified to be provided by Raiden
03:55:324 (1,2,3,4) - this is 1/3??
fix
those hihats that you use as a hitnormal are so much louder than everything else >_<
fix
taking this down to further discuss the things that were mentioned properly because a lot of the things that you just said "no" to were actually not hostile
I picked up some of the items that need to be modified and put it on the separate Post above
so your point is basically consistency is boring and uncreative?09kami wrote:
I don't follow a fixed pendulum. It makes the map very boring, but I fix a rhythm at each section .same to stream. in my opinion, a lot of stream can do it in different ways .but this can become inconsistent in some people's eyes .This is not a kind of targeted speech. I mean. Everyone has different opinions .But I'm used to looking at this from a variety of perspectives .That's what I learned when I followed HW .Creation, change .
This is a concept that the East has struggled with for nearly a decade. Trying to explain to them that "just because you're getting bored as a mapper doesn't mean the player is getting bored" is a waste of time.sdafsf wrote:
consistency and creativity are not mutually exclusive
HW himself was extremely consistent. Like, wow, his maps are absurdly consistent and predictable. They're just crazy creative and interpretive. But misunderstanding creativity to mean "making up random stuff" is such a cute thing to do. It's literally what makes most newbie maps so adorably awful.09kami wrote:
But I'm used to looking at this from a variety of perspectives .That's what I learned when I followed HW .Creation, change .