OnosakiHito wrote:

Proper answer to Mrrichi's mod is needed.

Mrriichi wrote:

えっとTwitterで言った通りModしに来ましたkudosu5000兆個欲しいのでDQしませんか？
多分、ランクドというものを考えた時に_yu68さんと私とでは前提が違い過ぎるものがあると思いますので、このMod内容に直して欲しいというより私が適当にこのマップを貶していた訳ではないという証拠のつもりで書いてます。なので私の指摘の内容が受け入れられないものだとしても「そういう自分と違う考え方が世にはあるし、その考え方もランクドのやり方として一般に許容されるものの一つ」という風には思って欲しいです。

[Virtuoso]
※細かい指摘も一応一部しますがInnerのMapなので、そこは好みで済ませられるかもしれません。
この譜面について私が思う最大の問題点は譜面全体を見たときに1/8のパターンがあるパートが悪目立ちしてしまってる点です。
悪目立ちと私が言う根拠は1/4より密集したノーツである1/8ないし1/6のノーツが、このパート並みにとは言わなくてもこれに準ずるレベルで密集した地帯が他にない（1/8はそもそもこのパートでしか使われてなく、1/6も最長のものが4連で前後は1/4ばかり）だという事です。
更にこの1/8がある地帯は00:36:027 - から5小節と譜面の前半の中央にあたる部分です。目立つ配置なら最後に置くか、中央の休憩地帯の直前に置くか、サビに置くか、もしくは最初の最初にあえて置くか、何かしらの譜面全体の構成で意味を持つ場所に置くのが難所（難所に見えるところ）を綺麗に見せるコツだと思いますが、現在の1/8は上記の内容に沿う事無く前半のそこそこ譜面が流れた後にやって来ます。これは譜面全体を見たときにマイナスポイントであるとしか言えないです。

しかし、この1/8連符は確かに逆餡蜜的な手法を使えば実質16分長連符と変わりませんし（そこがこの譜面がpp譜面だと言われる所以だと思いますが）プレイの上では簡単ではありますのでシステム的なSRの計算法のバグだと言えば難易度は均衡を保てていると考えられるかもしれません。
けれども、例え1/8を1/4の長連符扱いをしたとしても

ココが

こうなるだけで、単音の4連続を交互に繰り返した長連符をココに入れるのは、この1/8を1/4の長連符だと見做すと仮定しても前後のdとkの配置と比べて浮いているとしか言えません。前後のdとkの配置にddkkddkk~やddddkkkk~のようにパターンが繰り返されているものは（一番短い繰り返しのパターンであるddkkdやkkddk等5連1/4を含んでも）どこにもありませんので1/4の簡単な配置だと捉えたとしても浮くのは変わりがありません。他のパートでも長複合を置くとしたら00:41:291 - から休憩地帯前までの前半と後半とかオススメです。休憩地帯前に置けてかつ複合をそこそこ難しくすれば1/8の浮きは抑えられると思います。 私自身はこのズレたピアノの音が曲の特徴、面白さ、そして個性の一部だと思っています。似たようなメロディや雰囲気の中で1/8のような今までとは全く異なる展開をする。それがいわゆる曲を活かした、"その曲でしかできないようなマッピング"として適切なものだと考えています。りいちさんが言うように、目立つ場所に難所や特徴的な配置を置くことで譜面が綺麗に見えるという考えにも共感できます。ですがそれはあくまで一般論、全ての曲に共通して適用できてしまうことであり、その一般論に過度に忠実に従って譜面を作ることは、譜面を普遍的なありふれたものにし、曲の音や展開が持つ面白さを無駄にすることになると思います。そのため私はその個性を重視して譜面に変更は加えません。りいちさんの言葉を借りて、「そういう自分と違う考え方が世にはあるし、その考え方もランクドのやり方として一般に許容されるものの一つ」という風に思って欲しいです。

以上が譜面全体からこの地帯をパッと見た（プレイした）時に感じられた事です。

次にこの配置内の細かい配置についての指摘です。
一応これらの指摘はこの配置が音取りマッピングであるという前提の元、よりマシなパターンに出来ないかという方針の元に書いています。
このパートだけを見て最初に思ったのは1/8と1/2の置き方が謎だという事です。
例えば00:31:916 -と00:34:224 - が1/8でないのは音の強さ的におかしいですし、00:36:387 (341,342) - も1/8でないのも音が明らかに小さいと判断した為かもしれませんが1/2ごとに段階的に音が小さくなっていくパートでそこだけ1/2というのはおかしいと考えます。
なので00:31:916 -を普通に1/8にして00:33:070 - が音が下がってる事を利用して1/2にするのはどうでしょうか、また後半も00:34:224 -と00:36:387 - を1/8にする事で1/8のパターンが終了する
面倒臭いので現在の譜面全体の方針を尊重したVirtuoso (Mrriichi Patch)でも後で張っとくので参考にして下さい、私の譜面の配置でそこはありえんだろとか何故その配置にしたかとか疑問があったら細かいところはIRCModで(Not for Rankedだから厳密にはModじゃないかもしれないですけど)いつでも待ってます。

他に全体を見た時に気になった点はkiaiとkiaiと同じメロディである00:17:060 -～00:26:291 -（以下A）と01:07:252 -～01:15:328 -（以下kiai）です。
これらのパートはそれぞれの前半（00:17:060）と後半（00:21:676 -から）とで同じメロディーの中、難易度差を作ってますがその難易度ギャップが激しすぎます。前半が1/2だらけで後半が1/2単音が3,4個しかないというのは明らかに同じメロディラインの隣接したパートとして見た時おかしいです。（00:41:291 -からの同じメロディが入ってるパートは良いと思います）
またAとkiaiのノーツ配置自体を比べた時も違和感を覚えます。kiaiの後半ではシンバルが鳴っているので難しくするという判断は正しいですが、Aとkiaiの前半を比べるとkiaiの方が簡単であるように見えます（1/4の5連00:18:791 - と3連01:08:982 - なのでそもそものそれぞれの前半と後半の難易度ギャップからすれば大した差ではないかもしれませんが）。また01:10:136 - の突然の5連もAで対応する場所に1/4はなく、何故Aとkiaiの前半がこんなにスカスカで似たような1/4配置になってないのか理解できません。後は例えばそれぞれの前半と後半の繋ぎの00:20:378 (166,167,168,169,170,171,172,173,174,175,176) - と01:10:569 (47,48,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57) - は同じノーツ配置になってないのか、統一性のなさを上げたらAとkiaiのノーツを総入れ替えする羽目になってしまうので細かくは言いませんが、曲もしくは譜面のの盛り上がりであるはずのkiaiとそれと同じメロディである曲もしくは譜面の大事なポイントであるべき場所がこの様な配置になってるのは本当によろしくないと思います。 上記同様に曲特有の音を重視しkeepします。AとKiaiの前半は1/2のピアノの音が全面的に主張してくるように感じるので、1/2への肉付けを極限まで減らすことでプレイヤーがそのピアノの音を意識してプレイしやすいように意図したつもりです。後半からは細かいドラム音が入ってくるので1/4を配置しても演奏感に差し支えは無いと判断しました。この密度差はりいちさんの考え方で見ると不適切かもしれませんが、1/8を含むパートと同じように、私はそれが曲の個性・面白さだと考え、前半と後半で全く違う構成をしています。

最後にパッと全体を見て気になった事と言えば00:50:522 -からの休憩地帯の1/2のノーツライン（1/2の連符の塊の長さ）がバラバラだって事です。1/2しかない休憩であるからって叩くリズムをばらけさせては休憩になりにくいと思います。もしくは適度なタイミングで1/4の3連をオーバーマップする等、見て「この休憩地帯は同じパターンの繰り返しで譜面の配置が見やすいから気楽に出来る」と思える内容にすべきだと思います。ノーツの長さが違う事によるリズム難は立派な難易度の一部だって事です。 ノーツの長さが違う事によるリズム難は立派な難易度の一部かもしれませんが、これほどの難易度の譜面をプレイできるプレイヤーとなるとその程度の難易度の譜面は難なく処理できるように思います。ワンパターンにまとめる必要は無いように感じました。

以上で全体的なノーツ配置に関する指摘は以上ですが、全体的なマッピングの仕方の指摘をすると以前_yu68さんが言っていた音取りを重視したマッピングというものを見てこの譜面の音を聞いてみてパート、もしくはそれに内包する規則性のあるメロディ毎に明らかに音取りする楽器の差が出ている印象はありませんでした。
つまり、どういう事かというとこの譜面の音取りはその場で音取りしたい楽器の音をとりあえず音取りして、それを同じメロディで繰り返す事によって無理やりパターンだ、強調だと主張している様に感じられるという事です。（多分、この投稿の後に具体的にどの配置か指摘すると思います）

他にも何か言う事が出来たらわかりやすくP.S.みたいにして追加します
maziariさんの譜面は_yu68さんの以上にそもそも私の譜面の作り方とかけ離れてる気がするので指摘が無意味になるのが目に見えてるのでしません。
私のVirutuoso (Mrriichi Patch)みたいなのはそのうち暇になったら出します。今回大事なのは全体的なパターンだと思っているので重要度は薄いからです。
私の譜面の良いと思うところは後ろのboxに入れて近々書きます。
とりあえず、以上で。

Raiden wrote:

114 BPM on the last timing point sounds too late, try 118

tasuke912 wrote:

Objectively speaking, the difficulty doesn't have any patterns issues. Some people don't like 1/8s, but many more people like them judging from amount of favorites and rating. No need to remove 1/8s.

[ Timing]

118889,324.519230784833,4,1,0,90,1,0
118889,-88.8889423076923,4,1,0,90,0,0
119863,360.576923076923,4,1,0,90,1,8
119863,-80,4,1,0,90,0,0
120223,408.653846153846,4,1,0,90,1,0
120223,-70.5865384615385,4,1,0,90,0,0
120835,540.865384615385,4,1,0,90,1,8
120835,-53.3317307692308,4,1,0,90,0,0
121105,288.461538461538,4,1,0,90,1,0

I think it is better to put redlines at positions of turntable notes.

Nardoxyribonucleic wrote:

Placeholder for recheck. I will look into it when I have time.

[ Eon Fox ] wrote:

追加してくださいドンに 00:36:423 (342) - そしてまた 00:36:532 (343,344) - . 流れはずっと良いです。 I keep it because the piano sounds are weak. Also, in order to prevent the 1/8 pattern becoming too long.

Skylish wrote:

Sorry to shatter pp farmers' dream, but those 1/8 are really overmapped after 00:35:522 - , and the positions of the acceptable 1/8 douplets are currently wrong.

Skylish wrote:

Sorry to shatter pp farmers' dream, but those 1/8 are really overmapped after 00:35:522 - , and the positions of the acceptable 1/8 douplets are currently wrong.

MMzz wrote:

Virtuoso is fine the way it is except all of the 1/8 doubles the difficulty originally had should come back.

This map was fine before it got modded to hell.
Good luck yu <3

OnosakiHito wrote:

Some words about the 1/8 since many people discuss in general about it and are actually not sure what to think about them or often argue with the fun factor which has no place here. There was already some discussion for this in thread as well, but only about the possibility to have 1/8, but none which gives actually new ideas for other solutions without 1/8.

As previously said, the intention of the mapper, trying to catch the grace notes, is pretty clear. However, going more in depth, the Virtuoso difficulty can be doubted in this matter since the snapping of these notes can't be clearly indentified and make the 1/8 not very accurate. Due to this, before considering any fun factors or the mapper's intention following the unique sound, we should look at what other solutions we can bring up and compare it to current ones because, before this goes anywhere near qualification, we will have to talk about this and find a real agreement / conclusion (Nardo wants to say something about it as it seems).

00:32:060 - Three examples of patterns which are more accurate to the song than current 1/8.
(following the drums in the background, HL'd note = finisher)
(following the drums, alternating patterns with pitch of piano)
(following piano with finishers, grace notes get emphasized by the longer tone of finishers)
The map is consistenty following the rhythm of piano, so suddenly following the rhythm of drum in this part is strange.
Also, finishers will emphasize one strong sound like cymbal, so I think it's not suitable for grace notes.

00:34:368 - Some other examples for the longer 1/8 part.
(following the drums)
(following drums and make the 1/6 feel more consistent with additional improvised 1/6)
(following notes with finishers)
I keep it for same reasons.

>> For the lazy guys: Download to all three examples<<<

Overall, for me it boils down to having better solutions than the currently inaccurate 1/8. The 1/6+1/2 follows more accurate the drum while the finisher solution actually compensates the loss of 1/8 and goes well with the piano(also it feels kind the same playing 1/8 or finishers, but that's just me lol). To be fair tho, the 1/8 are consistent in itself and do not seem to bother that much sound wise or when playing. Yet, this should be probably discussed with some more people and consider more solutions before we consider going with 1/8. Afterall, everyone talks only about 1/8 but no one suggests or tries something else.

So yeah, I encourage everyone to help activily in this matter and test stuff out to find either a middle-way, better solutions or even go for the 1/8.


On another note, I will give later a comment about your answer to my mod, _yu.

Kin wrote:

Another opinion is here I guess.

From what Ono said, I think, following the drum shouldn't be an option in this case. The diff is following the piano so much, that'll just be more inconsistent.
also, even tho, the note density from ono's example are still higher than the Hell Oni, the SR is quite a problem here.

Aside from this, here is my opinion about it : all 1/8 such as 00:32:060 (286,287,288,289,290,291,292,293,294,295,296,297,298,299,300,301) - are clearly following the piano which are 1/12 or 1/16. I personally find it okay, since, I don't think playing 1/16 or 1/12 this way is "this fun". (it's even skipping the glissando here 00:32:902 - ).

According to how he mapped those weird 1/16~1/12 piano as 1/8. I'd say, it's already a "midway solution". A midway of a midway would be quite weird. I'd say, the current one is ok.

[]

Aside from this, on Virtuoso, how about this 01:01:628 (558,559,560,561,562) - . I think, it goes better with the piano acceleration. good, changed

Surono wrote:

me nub explain

00:49:873 - at least add here notes bcus follow piano, the piano is 1/6 but use 1/4 instead if you dont like xxxxxxx 1/6 I think it need to make 1/2 to emphasize 00:49:945 - here.

01:01:628 - like Kin said, 01:01:772 - 1/6 sounds. you can change the colors pattern to dd(kkkd) to give neat increasing emphasis with the paino, more easier tho I applied Kin's suggestion, because I want to make a pattern in which d stepwise increases.

1/8 is oki, I already pointd out 00:36:387 (341,342) - these as single notes b4.

bye gl

Skylish wrote:

Actually I was supposed to post with concerns about 1/8 usages but not timing issues lol, anyway.... (No KDS)

[Virtuoso]

! 00:35:522 - From this timing onwards, those 1/8 douplets are virtual *they are overmapped. The background music does not have 1/8 anymore. The whole 1/8 usage structure can be justified from barline:

> 00:32:060 - 1 bar full of 1/8

> 00:34:368 - ^, and that's all for 1/8.

> 00:36:676 - / 00:37:253 - These can be Finishers now when you remove all unnecessary 1/8 douplets.
The background music does have sounds like 1/8. Please listen the song again.

! These 1/8 are all wrongly placed. The WHOLE douplets are put 1/8 too early. For example, 00:32:205 (288,289) - should be actually starting at 00:32:169 - *oh wait Skylish if I do so then the spacing between the patterns at 00:32:060 - will not be enough. --> no worry
About this, I mentioned in reply to Raiden's mod. -> https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/6021511

! 00:32:060 - / 00:34:368 - Strong piano chords are performed, you may use D/K respectively to represent it well. Not only stating the chords, but also polishing the overall patterns' outlooks (talking about consistent metronome Finishers)
The map follows consistent the piano. I would like to take a policy to follow the piano unless the sounds of piano is drowned out by the sounds of drum.

! 00:31:880 - / 00:34:188 - actually there are 1/8 douplets here, you can alrady use ONE 1/8 douplets here to act as a little warning for the players for the upcoming hellish 1/8 spamming.
I might add it if it's not unrankable.

tl;dr, my suggestion is that:

- 00:32:060 (287) -

> You can see those 1/8 douplets are now all snapped correctly to the right timings in the photo.
I keep it because of same reason as 00:32:205 (288,289) - .

- 00:34:368 (314) -

> It's completely the same logic with 00:32:060 (287) -
Same.

[]


Sorry to shatter pp farmers' dream, but those 1/8 are really overmapped after 00:35:522 - , and the positions of the acceptable 1/8 douplets are currently wrong.
This is not overmapping. Current 1/8 doublets is the best pattern I concluded after much consideration. It never only for pp.

Skylish wrote:

I am sorry to veto again, about your mod reply as there's contradiction in your mapping concept overall speaking:

1. The mis-matching 1/8 douplets

> Yes I acknowledge the existence of 1/8 douplets after 00:35:522 - , but they are barely noticable during gameplay from my perspective.

! However, as you are going to COMPLETELY follow the piano, as you stated in the mod reply, why don't you keep the this intention in these mis-matching 1/8 douplets at 00:32:060 - / 00:34:368 - ? Having these douplets starting from yellow tick is NOT weird as the music goes in this way. If you alter the rhythm/ go against the music, then that'd be really WEIRD.
Nope, I insisted that "I am taking a policy to match the atmosphere of piano rather than matching it completely with the sound of the piano". (Perhaps this is misunderstood because my English is not fluent.)

Yeah, I guess you are going to keep your intention about the positions, but let's talk about some musical theory:

Those ( 00:34:512 - / 00:34:657 - / 00:34:801 - /etc. ) concrete melodies have accompaniments right before 1/8 beat. In general music, accompaniments are ALWAYS played BEFORE the MAIN MELODY. Maniera is the case I mentioned. Leaving melody notes as ending does make sense, in terms of musical theory and game-play effect in osu!taiko as well.
I can't agree in terms of game-play. In a dense snap like 1/8, I think that the player will feel rhythm at the start point rather than not the end point of the patterns. It may not be so in a map which 1/8 is mainly used. At least in this map, many players will feel the rhythm at start points of 1/8s.

You may question: Players may feel uncomfortable about the rhythm there! I am sorry to say that, yes, and this is how the music goes itself.
Taiko is a game. Rather than following music theory, map should be considered for players.


2. Finishers usage according to your mapping concept

Alright you seemed reject using Finishers to replace the 1/8 douplets at 00:32:060 - / 00:34:368 - . On another side you said you want to follow the piano very concretely. I suppose that you are talking about the WHOLE PIANO, but not some parts of it. Piano contains PEDALS and CHORDS , both are used for strengthening the dynamic. How about Finishers usage in Taiko? Strengthening the dynamic!
In the same way, I keep it to match the atmosphere of piano, and in order to be comfortable the game-play.

The timings I mentioned have very clear and strong piano chords with pedals on. If you are going to follow the piano NOTES, which also includes CHORDS, please consider again.

qoot8123 wrote:

Hello!
I have some Timing/Patterns suggestions about Virtuoso :

From 00:59:753 - ~01:02:060 - I found that you use d to represent lowering beat, but look back to 00:50:522 - ~00:59:753 - you make a 1/1 rest moment to emphasize the piano on 00:50:522 (481,488,503,510,524) - only 00:56:435 (518) - is different (consider the piano sound is sort of different between 00:50:522 (481,488,503,510,524) - and 00:56:435 (518) - ,so I think it is reasonable). Then, start from 00:57:445 - , the note density is increased ,you also emphasize piano pretty well on 00:58:527 (532,533,534) - by using different snap. but on 00:59:753 (542,543,544,545) - it not only conflict the your mapping idea in former part, but also on 01:00:474 (546,547,548,549,550,551,552,553,554,555,556,557,558,559,560,561,562,563) - which mainly use 1/3 to follow piano . So I suggest you try to follow piano on 00:59:753 - ~01:02:060 - would be more consistent with former part and represent piano more clear. there is a reference.
I almost changed but I putted d at 00:59:897 - because I want to emphasize base sound at here. I also think it will make the natural flow to the next 1/3 + 1/4 + 1/6 stream.

And about the timing signature(metronome) on 01:02:060 - ~01:07:252 - I feel this part's metronome is 3/4 , it not only match the timing you originally set in 01:05:522 - but also fit the former part's beat. fixed the timing point

That's what I concerned, good luck for your beatmap

Felt7z wrote:

Good morning, yu.

[Virtuoso]
気になった点があったのでちょっと文句言いに来ました！ｗ

00:28:479 -
00:30:786 -
00:31:940 -
00:34:248 -
この4箇所に1/8として音符が置かれていない(過去のmodで削除された？)理由が分かりません。
ピアノ音に合わせるために1/8を使うなら、その方針で統一するためにこの4箇所にも音符を追加する必要があるはずです。逆にこれを追加しなければ正しく音取りをしているとは言えず、1/8を含んだ配置の正当性を主張する上での根拠に欠けると思います。
上記2つに関して、 00:28:310 - 00:30:618 - この2音のそれぞれの主張が強く、その直後にあるピアノの音の雰囲気は打ち消されているように感じます。好みの問題かもしれませんが、ここは1/8を置かない方が自然に感じました。
残りの2つに関して、こちらは確かに1/8が適するような雰囲気を感じますが 00:32:060 - 00:34:368 - この2つをそれぞれ強調する意図も兼ねて小節線の場所から1/8を開始しています。別のmodderに再度指摘されたら変更するかもしれません。

あと個人的な好みなんですが、もし1/8を新たに追加した場合は、音階の関係で 00:31:916 のとこはdd、00:31:916 (285) のとこはkkのほうが音に合っているような気がします。

議論ややこしくしてすみませんが時間があるとき適当にお返事ください

collapsed text

Hi! A masturbation opinion as one of nerd player of taiko is here.

I know too many Taiko wise men have talked about Virtuoso difficulty and viewed this forum and I got numbed.
I've excepted this map would be a dawn of new Taiko mapping history.
Quantity of favorites says how this map is expected,I think.


Objectively speaking, this difficulty is fine, several BNs said so and I agree it.
And I'm sorry,let me talk more.

I guess no rule about 1/8s can disturb the way of rank.
Regarding to 1/8 double notes.,they are ACTUALLY and CERTAINLY placed to the music(or rather piano)
This part requires only the skill;beating big notes with 200BPM.
Who the hell criticizes if this has a lot of big note?
And this map also does not have fatal technical problem in any other sections.
Broadly speaking,any sections in this map would NOT spoil playability or something like it.

Now is the time to let MANIERA revert to typical ranking process!

1. 00:33:070 (300,301) - dd? 音程的になんかそんな気がしたんですけど、僕の気のせいかもしれません
2. 00:35:666 (331,332) - 00:36:243 (339,340) - dd? 音程もなんですけど、なんだか同じ配置が続いて冗長な感じがしたので小節単位でバリエーション付けたいなと思いました

1. 01:16:122 (107) - 01:17:276 (119) - これら削除して、直後のノーツを1/4文後ろにずらすのどうですか？
   なんかメリハリついてて僕は好きです。どういうことかというとこういうことです。
   

1. 00:36:820 (1,1) - 00:37:397 (1,1) - これ全部1/2ひとつ分右にずらしたい？(ddkdd k ddk ddk k ...)かなってなりました
   強めの音のKが強調されて僕は好きです！

ManP wrote:

collapsed text

Hi! A masturbation opinion as one of nerd player of taiko is here.

I know too many Taiko wise men have talked about Virtuoso difficulty and viewed this forum and I got numbed.
I've excepted this map would be a dawn of new Taiko mapping history.
Quantity of favorites says how this map is expected,I think.


Objectively speaking, this difficulty is fine, several BNs said so and I agree it.
And I'm sorry,let me talk more.

I guess no rule about 1/8s can disturb the way of rank.
Regarding to 1/8 double notes.,they are ACTUALLY and CERTAINLY placed to the music(or rather piano)
This part requires only the skill;beating big notes with 200BPM.
Who the hell criticizes if this has a lot of big note?
And this map also does not have fatal technical problem in any other sections.
Broadly speaking,no section in this map would NOT spoil playability or something like it.

Now is the time to let MANIERA revert to typical ranking process!

そういえばmod頼まれてたのを思い出したのでちょっと提案書いて去ります
[Virtuoso]

1. 00:33:070 (300,301) - dd? 音程的になんかそんな気がしたんですけど、僕の気のせいかもしれません 直後の1/4 ddkdkへ移行しやすいようにする意図で、この部分においては音程よりも直後のパターンと対の配色をとることを優先したいです。
2. 00:35:666 (331,332) - 00:36:243 (339,340) - dd? 音程もなんですけど、なんだか同じ配置が続いて冗長な感じがしたので小節単位でバリエーション付けたいなと思いました 前者のみを適用しました。後者に関しては、前者を適用することで譜面の変化と音程の表現は十分だと判断したため、配色が片方に偏りすぎることを避ける意図でkkとします。

[Muzukashi]

1. 00:36:820 (1,1) - 00:37:397 (1,1) - これ全部1/2ひとつ分右にずらしたい？(ddkdd k ddk ddk k ...)かなってなりました
   強めの音のKが強調されて僕は好きです！ good, changed

200ポストもされてたらあんま書くことなかった！ :3

Good luck you guys

iloveyou4ever wrote:

Hi,some suggestion about the map NO KUDOS
[Virtuoso]
>00:28:455 - change to d?
>Because the piano pitch here drops,and it can reflect the piano pitch change here I want to focus the difference between 00:28:455 - and 00:28:599 - .
>00:30:618 - again change to d?
>same reason same
>00:32:782 - change like this? https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/8225250
>00:32:782 (296,297,298,299) - it's like these four timestamps have similar piano pitch,and the pitch drops at 00:33:070 - ,so I think using kk kk
here can present the music in a better way. Similarly, I'm focusing the difference between 00:33:070 - and 00:33:214 - .
>01:11:795 - remove this
>I think the new music part starts from 01:11:867 - ,and I think remove 01:11:795 - can let the ''connection'' become better,and also easy to distinguish the new music part.It can emphasize the piano sound at 01:11:867 - as the first beat too changed
>01:51:750 - change to k
>the piano pitch of ''high-high-low''(kkdkkdkkd...)continue at this point,so I think changing to k can keep the music consistency as well fitting the music more. changed

Nofool wrote:

I think a BN rule says "Being able to reasonably play a beatmap is a core part of being able to judge a beatmap's quality", looking at your profile you should probably avoid the Virtuoso difficulty for now

ManP wrote:

そういえばmod頼まれてたのを思い出したのでちょっと提案書いて去ります

[Mrriichi's Inner Oni]

1. 01:16:122 (107) - 01:17:276 (119) - これら削除して、直後のノーツを1/4文後ろにずらすのどうですか？
   なんかメリハリついてて僕は好きです。どういうことかというとこういうことです。
   

単体で見れば悪くないですが前後に偶数連打の1/4がないため統一性の観点からなしで

200ポストもされてたらあんま書くことなかった！ :3

Good luck you guys

Skylish wrote:

Speaking of the extent of fitting of patterns with music, it is not really appetizing and suitable imo. However, I am done with my concerns as yumuya is not going to change anything once he can explain his intention, although I disagree with.

Leave the things to QATs now, and I wish you good luck.

k3v227 wrote:

...zzz

Unmei Muma wrote:

you tryna tell me there's 64th triples
then yeah

BUT 96TH or 64th triplets for the music nerds
I CANNOT BELIEVE IT

Even though by waveform analysis and close listening using AV i came to the same conclusion for 64th triples, 32nd doubles should be the way to go.
your maniera is slower tho it says 120 bpm :thinikng:

iloveyou4ever wrote:

[maziari's Hell Oni]
>01:45:043 - add finisher?
>since you are mapping to the ''snare'' sound(idk if it's XDD),and you also put finisher at 01:45:476 - ,so I think you should also change 01:45:043 - to finisher too to keep the consistency.
I want to give player an irregular impression so nochanged.
>01:58:745 - add d here?
two reasons
1.to connect both the music part,since you're mapping to piano here,and there's piano here too,so I think adding d here can have a better
''connection'' of two music parts here.
2.Difficulties consistency,since like virtuoso and Inner Oni,there are notes here,and three difficulties are also mapping to the piano sound in this
music part,so I think difficulty consistency should also be put into consideration.
>hm. I think that consistency is unnecessary in difficulty above Inner Oni. Rather than that, individual sense of play should be given priority imo.
>In here, notes is placed along the drum, also in order to concentrate the player's consciousness on the outroduction, I placed a 1/1 break.
>I think sence of play is more important than accurate sound pickuping.

maziari1105 wrote:

iloveyou4ever wrote:

[maziari's Hell Oni]
>01:45:043 - add finisher?
>since you are mapping to the ''snare'' sound(idk if it's XDD),and you also put finisher at 01:45:476 - ,so I think you should also change 01:45:043 - to finisher too to keep the consistency.
I want to give player an irregular impression so nochanged.
>01:58:745 - add d here?
two reasons
1.to connect both the music part,since you're mapping to piano here,and there's piano here too,so I think adding d here can have a better
''connection'' of two music parts here.
2.Difficulties consistency,since like virtuoso and Inner Oni,there are notes here,and three difficulties are also mapping to the piano sound in this
music part,so I think difficulty consistency should also be put into consideration.
>hm. I think that consistency is unnecessary in difficulty above Inner Oni. Rather than that, individual sense of play should be given priority imo.
>In here, notes is placed along the drum, also in order to concentrate the player's consciousness on the outroduction, I placed a 1/1 break.
>I think sence of play is more important than accurate sound pickuping.

Thanks for mod.


MOD返信ついでに、Virtuosoに対する私の所感を書いておきます。
1/8の2連打に焦点が当てられて議論をされているようなので、私もその点について書きます。

Following the reply, I'll write my feelings for "Virtuoso".
I can't write long complex sentences with my English so I'll write in Japanese. Sorry.
Please translate with excellent Google translate.


まず、Virtuosoの全体の構成について。
言うまでも無く、この譜面はピアノに重きを置いて音取りがされており、ドラムの打楽器的なリズムを取り入れることでより演奏感を得た譜面になっています。
また、サビでは同じメロディを刻みながらも違ったリズムを刻める、この曲だからこそ出来る楽しさを持つ譜面になっています。

件の1/8について、原作のBMSでは所謂ズレ配置といったものになっており、譜面の最大の個性となっていると思います。
たしかに太鼓は打楽器で、私も打楽器のリズムを取った場合の方が気持ちが良いことが多いと思いますが、Virtuosoにおいてはそうではないと思います。
ピアノのズレた音に合わせたズレ配置というのはこの曲でしか出来ないことであり、それを大音符の1/2や1/4の複合などの没個性的な配置で埋めるというのは、楽しさを捨てることに他なりません。

正確な音取りを求めて、1/16, 1/12, 1/6や、単音を入り混ぜたパターン、黄色戦の上から始まるパターン等が挙げられていますが、どれもプレイ感を感じられないパターンだと思います。
まず視覚的な面において、1/16, 1/12は視認しづらいことこの上ありません。1/6については音に合ってすらいません。
単音や黄色線の上から始まるパターン、これは実際にプレイした上で言っているのでしょうか。私にはプレイし辛くてたまりません。

たしかに音取りは大切ですが、私は、それは譜面を楽しませる上での一つの手段に過ぎないと思っています。
音を拾えば演奏感が得られ、プレイ感が高まり楽しい譜面になる可能性が高いでしょうが、音を拾ったからといって楽しい譜面になるとは限りません。
プレイ感が全ての上にあり、その中に音取りがあるに過ぎません。
明らかに音から外れている配置は、プレイ感を損ね楽しく無い譜面になる可能性が高まりますが、プレイ中にプレイヤーが意識できない程細かい音取りはマッパーの自己満足に過ぎません。

そういった考えの上で、Virtuosoの1/8は「視覚面」「演奏感」「MANIERAという曲の特徴であるところのズレ配置」を感じられる最良の配置だと思います。
これよりノーツ数が少なくても多くても、間隔が狭くても広くても、視覚的、又はプレイ時の演奏感が失われると思います。
長い文章、失礼しました。