Mm most have been responded to before, but the posts got deleted. Not sure what's gonna happen here but uh... we'll see I guess.
Im sorry.Loctav wrote:
@-himei if you dont know how the modding process work, please get lost or discuss that somewhere else. Just because it is not breaking the RC doesnt mean that no debate about the matter is permitted or that stuff still can't be wrong. And apparantly someone nailed something on your forehead, because this is like the 9023490390349509305935902123843298th time that someone told you this and you are still too dense to get it. Can you just quit it altogether and stop teaching people about an ecosystem that you clearly never understood yourself? On a second note, you can discuss your displease about how the modding ecosystem works in its own thread, not in map threads that are only reserved for discussions about the map self. If you fail to abide that, we will have to make sure that you simply never post in this threads again - ever.
With the time the map becomes as an embodiment of its mapper's soul's expression. When somebody continuously tries to change it/nuke it, or just inhibit the ranking of it, the whole discussion becomes personal.Shiirn wrote:
Attacks and dissenting opinions towards a map are not necessarily personal attacks on the mapper. This is something everyone should try to remember, as it's very easy to feel as if your opinions are being disregarded when presented with conflicting ones.
Your maps are not you. They are not an extension of you, no matter what you may feel on the matter. They are something that are created, and once ranked have officially "grown up" - they're no longer under your control. Ranking a map is by definition ceasing all development and putting out a final, unchangeable copy. You'd best be ready for that.
Maps do not have feelings. Mappers do. People get pissed off when they feel their opinion is being disregarded, or when they feel people aren't giving them the respect "they deserve" by implying, or in many cases, outright saying, that they feel the mapper did something incorrectly.
The main conflicts people are bringing up with this map proper are based on what constitutes "proper representation of the song". The biggest nail of discord there is that the song itself is extremely messed up and hard to follow. As such, different levels of experience in music, listening, or even possibly physical gear (headphones, speakers, etc) can be causing massive changes in what each person hears in this track.
This is why I went to so much effort to point out how horrible this track was - not the map, not the mappers, the song itself. A song that has this much conflict over what even constitutes the basic rhythms and melodies really shouldn't have a difficulty over 6.5*. And that's being generous.
Modders who hate your maps are not clawing through the fabric of reality to tear at your soul. Your creation is intangible, it cannot be damaged or destroyed unless you let it be.-himei wrote:
With the time the map becomes as an embodiment of its mapper's soul's expression. When somebody continuously tries to change it/nuke it, or just inhibit the ranking of it, the whole discussion becomes personal.
You cant deny anything from ^
It is truth for any map and any mapper that got some experience in mapping and the mapping itself for him (you, me, everyone) becomes an
expression of his feelings
that is personal. It is true for eveyone here who stopped mapping to the "beat" after realizing what mapping is in its advanced form.
You are missing the point that most of us (mappers) are ranking stuff to show everyone our perspective of view of music, and the feeling we are experiencing while listening to the song.Shiirn wrote:
Modders who hate your maps are not clawing through the fabric of reality to tear at your soul. Your creation is intangible, it cannot be damaged or destroyed unless you let it be.
Just because it's important to you doesn't mean that you need to be a neurotic sociopath to protect it from things that cannot hurt it.
The same applies here. Personal attacks are pointless; attacking the map has purpose as the moment you push your map for ranking you are by your own choice putting it under review by opinions that are not your own. Being able to be objective and logical about your own emotions is literally what "maturity" is about.
If you truly wanted to have a map be a personal bastion of your feelings and soul, you would not try to rank it. They're mutually exclusive.
The BNg exists for that purpose. Like it or don't like it you have to pass their opinion and in this case, the community's too.-himei wrote:
theres no distinct borderline of "what is good/bad", aside from RC/Code of conduct, which are vague at some points.
Make a really good map to begin with and people will come praise you instead of complaining :p-himei wrote:
you never know what is "optional enough" to skip or "bad enough" to change,, because, eventually, the more people comes, the more stuff you must respond to, the higher chance that you wont handle everything alone.
Quoting for emphasis even if it's a general statement not particularly directed at this map. It applies to much more than just mapping and is an important lesson everyone has to learn eventually so I feel it has value even if this "isn't the place for it."MrSergio wrote:
If you can't "express" your vision in an easy-to-understand manner then you failed.
It's like... "are people not understanding what I'm saying or is it me who can't explain things?" kind of thing.
-himei your discussion here is pointless please take it somewhere elseLoctav wrote:
@-himei .
you missed the point entirely.WORSTPOLACKEU wrote:
Stuff
I understand that, yet I think that if a map is qualified, it means it's good so unless something really breaking the map comes up it could be DQ'd but not when they mention theories about rhythms or different representation of the song that doesn't fit with Raiikozen's vision of the map and he has said so himself I believe and explained why he doesn't want to make it that way.Nao Tomori wrote:
you missed the point entirely.WORSTPOLACKEU wrote:
Stuff
a map playing "well" (or comfortably, which is what you mean ofc) has absolutely nothing to do with its quality. it's really really easy to make a map that has a high star rating and plays perfectly comfortably since it uses exclusively sharp angles and has no major spacing changes, etc etc etc. that's what raikozen did here. there's nothing WRONG with doing that either. It does, I'd rather see high star rating map that plays comfortably because of the angles than 5~~starish map that has awkward movements here and there. Also you missed my point a bit aswell but it doesn't really matter I guess.
the issue with this map that most people who modded it are talking about is from the theory side of it, where what "should be emphasized" is not and what "should be followed" is not. talking about how it plays is entirely irrelevant since any player that can play 8 star maps with some level of ability won't be put off by high spacing sharp angles or overmapped streams. therefore, people are talking about how raikozen could, in their opinion, use objects to represent the song better from a theory perspective.
Hmm I dunno~ The Promethean Kings seemed to make it look like a breeze and that's a 9.16* map :thinking: But I'll let that one slideLoctav wrote:
Or maybe you just accept the fact that ranking very difficult maps is a very difficult thing to do. And that it is very hard to figure out if it is done right. If you are not up for the controversy and just want everyone to accept your very hard maps as they are, maybe you simply shouldn't map very hard maps and only stay with milder stuff that it easier to evaluate for everyone, including the mapper.
Can u explain to me what is this 'not mapping to the beat' and 'advanced mapping' you speak of? Are you trying to say that only you have found this 'advanced mapping' that you speak of and is only available to those who stop thinking about the song logically and do something else unrelated?-himei wrote:
It is truth for any map and any mapper that got some experience in mapping and the mapping itself for him (you, me, everyone) becomes an
expression of his feelings
that is personal. It is true for eveyone here who stopped mapping to the "beat" after realizing what mapping is in its advanced form.
👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀 high quality content👌 thats ✔ some high👌👌quality content right👌👌there👌👌👌 right✔there ✔✔if i do ƽaү so my self 💯 i say so 💯 thats what im talking about right there right there (chorus: ʳᶦᵍʰᵗ ᵗʰᵉʳᵉ) mMMMMᎷМ💯 👌👌 👌НO0ОଠOOOOOОଠଠOoooᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒ👌 👌👌 👌 💯 👌 👀 👀 👀 👌👌Good contentSushiDOTO wrote:
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I agree!Sinnoh wrote:
👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀 high quality content👌 thats ✔ some high👌👌quality content right👌👌there👌👌👌 right✔there ✔✔if i do ƽaү so my self 💯 i say so 💯 thats what im talking about right there right there (chorus: ʳᶦᵍʰᵗ ᵗʰᵉʳᵉ) mMMMMᎷМ💯 👌👌 👌НO0ОଠOOOOOОଠଠOoooᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒ👌 👌👌 👌 💯 👌 👀 👀 👀 👌👌Good contentSushiDOTO wrote:
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Hm, is that so Loctav? I would think you would speak otherwise. After all, you DID happen to rank a certain Fatal Oni, one not only extremely difficult for its time but also still brutally punishing 5 years later, and it just so happened to take you less than 3 months. And for those unaware, I might want to point out that this particular map is so difficult that it has never been HR SS'd, and actually is one of the fairly scant maps that has no top 50 DT play (or even EZDT). That certainly doesn't scream "agonizing ranking process".Loctav wrote:
Or maybe you just accept the fact that ranking very difficult maps is a very difficult thing to do. And that it is very hard to figure out if it is done right. If you are not up for the controversy and just want everyone to accept your very hard maps as they are, maybe you simply shouldn't map very hard maps and only stay with milder stuff that it easier to evaluate for everyone, including the mapper.
If you can't hear the musical justification in this case, then I'm sorry, but it isn't the mapper's judgment that is wrong. You simply need new ears. The map could arguably be said to be undermapped, as far more patterns could have been used. The counterpoint is quite faithfully followed by the notes, and I say that after poring over the diff 50+ times easily. I'm not sure what bollocks you are trying to feed others here, but I believe the bull would put them to better use.Shiirn wrote:
Let me personally make my feelings on the matter, again, extremely simple.
This track, Snow Drive, has so much equalization and white noise that there is next to no way for any mapper, regardless of skill level, to properly create rhythms that will undeniably follow "the music" to a level where both players and modders will be satisfied.
In other words, the track itself is just too flat and unadorned to properly allow for the kind of emphasis that allows for a very challenging or difficult map. All that players really hear are the repeating three-beat drum samples and the out-of-sync vocals, and these do not make for a very reliable or fitting metronome to have cross-screen jumps or made-up rhythms and streams.
If you want to make a hard map, choose a song that fits it and works well with that theme. I don't understand why this is such a hard concept to figure out. I really, really don't get it so please help me out here.
Therevipto wrote:
Hello
True story.[ Eon Fox ] wrote:
Hm, is that so Loctav? I would think you would speak otherwise. After all, you DID happen to rank a certain Fatal Oni, one not only extremely difficult for its time but also still brutally punishing 5 years later, and it just so happened to take you less than 3 months. And for those unaware, I might want to point out that this particular map is so difficult that it has never been HR SS'd, and actually is one of the fairly scant maps that has no top 50 DT play (or even EZDT). That certainly doesn't scream "agonizing ranking process".Loctav wrote:
Or maybe you just accept the fact that ranking very difficult maps is a very difficult thing to do. And that it is very hard to figure out if it is done right. If you are not up for the controversy and just want everyone to accept your very hard maps as they are, maybe you simply shouldn't map very hard maps and only stay with milder stuff that it easier to evaluate for everyone, including the mapper.
As for the claim's bearing in standard? I believe it is worth pointing out that this is selectively false. And there are no shortage of maps to support this. Allow me to, for your benefit and the benefit of others, provide some examples:
Bal-Sagoth: The Obsidian Crown. Mapper: Mazzerin. 50 posts on a four page beatmap thread. Ranked 2 months and 20 days after submission. Quite rapid.
Vektor: Cosmic Cortex. Mapper: Mazzerin. 62 posts on a 5 page beatmap thread. Ranked 1 month and 11 days after submission. This rather shockingly fast ranking would have happened even earlier, had someone not DQ'd the map. Ironically, they stated it was due to lack of sufficient discussion about the map. Unsurprisingly, the map was ranked after less than a page worth of replies. Hardly sufficient, I'd say, especially for a 10 minute map at a 7*+ level.
Kalmah: Swamphell. Mapper: Mazzerin. 56 posts on a 4 page beatmap thread. Ranked 2 months and 12 days after submission. Earned two bubbles before the third page. Another DQ, meaning this was going to be ranked even quicker.
Inferi: The Promethean Kings. Mapper: Mazzerin. Shocking 262 posts on an 18 page beatmap thread, nearly unheard of for Mazzerin. Most merely were related to whatever "meme" (I use that term extremely loosely here) people felt like clinging to as if they were leeches (although hearing Monstrata ramble on about Tianna Bartoletta's hypothetical osu career whilst showing an immense lack of knowledge for how basic physics work was quite honestly very amusing to watch). I've expressed my feelings on the map, and thus don't need to dwell on this any longer.
BABYMETAL: Tales of the Destinies. Mapper: Monstrata. 60 posts on a 4 page beatmap thread. Ranked 3 months and 30 days after submission.
9mm Parabellum Bullet: Inferno. Mapper: Monstrata. 183 posts on a 12 page beatmap thread. Ranked 1 month and 8 days after submission.
BABYMETAL: Road of Resistance. Mapper: Monstrata. 109 posts on a 8 page beatmap thread. Ranked 1 month and 21 days after submission.
MAXIMUM THE HORMONE: A-L-I-E-N. Mapper: Monstrata. Quite difficult to pin down accurate pertinent stats, as it is now loved. I do not know when it reached qualified, but I know, based off of the May 15th submission date, it is somewhere between 15 days and 1 month 15 days. Perhaps the only time where I have seen a mapper trying to justify a map by saying it is intended to be bad and ugly.
BLANKENFIELD: Goodbye. Mapper: Kyubey. 78 posts on a 6 page beatmap thread. Ranked 2 months and 3 days after submission. This is possibly the very first non-Aspire map that has gotten ranked despite a complete violation of the rules of the RC. BLANKFIELD's portion of Untaled, "Goodbye", was artificially lengthened by Kyubey. You might be wondering how I know such a thing for certain. Well, after listening carefully to the MP3 over and over again, I decided to do a little digging. I found out that the total MP3 was lengthened by about 11 or 12 seconds, as BLANKFIELD's official upload on Bandcamp is explicitly listed as 5:01, and his official post of the Untaled project on his YouTube channel, warinside, explicitly lists that Mettaton's portion begins at 5:00. This is quite contrary to the 5:05:271 audible in the map's MP3. What Kyubey actually did was take the last few seconds of audio and flipped it, making a mirrored extension.
So, Loctav, you say ranking very difficult maps is a "very difficult thing"? I believe these examples quite clearly demonstrate how wrong your statement is. And many of these had more flaws than maps like Snow Drive, Call Me It., or Immortal Flame ever had. But why do these maps get relegated to being bogged down and denied ranking? Simple: It's all about having the right friends in your pocket. As you might notice if you look through these maps I listed, you will see a few friendly faces making consistent appearances. Monstrata, Nathan, Pishifat, Cryptic, Yuii. These happen to be quite present in most of these cases. Am I accusing any of them of misconduct? No. But I remark nonetheless that these certain people are quite particular and calculated in regards to which pies they choose to have their hand in.If you can't hear the musical justification in this case, then I'm sorry, but it isn't the mapper's judgment that is wrong. You simply need new ears. The map could arguably be said to be undermapped, as far more patterns could have been used. The counterpoint is quite faithfully followed by the notes, and I say that after poring over the diff 50+ times easily. I'm not sure what bollocks you are trying to feed others here, but I believe the bull would put them to better use.Shiirn wrote:
Let me personally make my feelings on the matter, again, extremely simple.
This track, Snow Drive, has so much equalization and white noise that there is next to no way for any mapper, regardless of skill level, to properly create rhythms that will undeniably follow "the music" to a level where both players and modders will be satisfied.
In other words, the track itself is just too flat and unadorned to properly allow for the kind of emphasis that allows for a very challenging or difficult map. All that players really hear are the repeating three-beat drum samples and the out-of-sync vocals, and these do not make for a very reliable or fitting metronome to have cross-screen jumps or made-up rhythms and streams.
If you want to make a hard map, choose a song that fits it and works well with that theme. I don't understand why this is such a hard concept to figure out. I really, really don't get it so please help me out here.