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BABYMETAL - Road of Resistance

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Ascendance

Shiirn wrote:

I directly took a stream from another mapper in my Ascension to Heaven map, never really mentioned it to anyone, and kept it in my head as a personal homage to that mapper. I don't feel that is plagiarism.
I think it's time to wake up friend :o
Surprisingly, things have gotten more strict and quality criteria has changed! Why should someone not be upset when their work is taken :o
Shiirn
holy shit that was over five years ago


rip in peace 100pa-, you were an inspiration :thinking:
Monstrata
Please stop making this about the map as a whole. I'm sitting her pointing out specific patterns. Also, if you go to any academic institution, any instance of plagiarism causes the entire paper to be plagiarized. Hell, you can even plagiarize yourself if you don't quote from your own published works lol.

I already stated my intentions pretty clearly.

Monstrata wrote:

I'm giving every single example of what I as the original mapper felt was a clear copy. Kroytz is a creative mapper, he can easily find a different way to map those sections I pointed out no? And then I would have no qualms about this map.
Either change the patterns to something new and creative or demonstrate how they aren't a copy. Simple as that.

[]

If you aren't satisfied with that, then I honestly have no clue what you are even arguing about, or why you're even here lol.
Shiirn
There we go, then. Hope he's mature and changes things up for you.



Also, this isn't an academic institution, it's a loony bin for music-lovers-turned-sadomasochists. Standards might be a little bit different, so we shouldn't get too carried away with analogies.
7ambda

Monstrata wrote:

Hell, you can even plagiarize yourself if you don't quote from your own published works lol.
How can you plagiarize yourself if you aren't taking someone else's work?
Logic Agent
It was a dramatic example. In certain (maybe most, if not all) college courses, you have to cite every source you used in a finished paper. If you don't cite yourself, welp...
7ambda

Logic Agent wrote:

It was a dramatic example. In certain (maybe most, if not all) college courses, you have to cite every source you used in a finished paper. If you don't cite yourself, welp...
That's not plagiarism (if you're using your own works), that's an entirely different matter.
qrlwx
It seems - regardless of whether any sort of plagiatism does apply in this case - that actions of copying specific elements into oneselfs map in the osu community isn't even being discussed in regards of the theme it being a questionable action because of the sake of an element, in similar manner, being used in a different map. Though this is the exact action I would see plagiatism in, that is whether something is "applied to the entire map" or not. I don't see any reason whatsoever that implies any difference (in terms of copying being blatant plagiatism) between those two. It does not at all matter whether a map represents the mappers own thoughts and creationism if he decided to randomly just copy elements of other maps.
The whole theme of a generic style being used in both maps is an entirely different discussion and does not influence the fact of whether plagiatism is rightfully denoted or not. The concept of "Mimicing styles" is a topic that is completely and utterly different from the charges that are being brought up to kroytz (which is plagiatism in terms of copying specific patterns whether or not they fit a specific style or not, which, again, does not mattern the slightest bit).
In my mind, it would be a start for rafraining from plagiatism (that is copying specific patterns that are recognizable) to become part of the ranking criteria.
And it is absolutely not a horrible idea for maps, in specific parts, to be necessarily different from a map of another set, as, for a map, being a product fully originating from the creativity and skill of its creator, is part of its purpose. And I am not talking about the style or the logic/flow patterns of specific parts of a map being an influence for a mapper to map a certain way - I am talking about blatantly copying patterns, that were thought out by another mapper to represent the song that is mapped to the best. Which again, neither do I know nor am able to judge whether this is the case here.
Calling out complaints (whether legitimate or not) as "bitching" doesn't help the discussion to advance in any way.

Sorry for this post, but it's 5:50 am and I got a little triggered I guess.
Net0

Monstrata wrote:

he can easily find a different way to map those sections I pointed out no? And then I would have no qualms about this map.
So you're making and statement here, meaning that Kroytz should re-map all the parts that are "copies" of your map?
Let us think straight for a second here. How many maps of the same songs actually uses the same patterns, with the same rhythm choice, spacing, etc... This happens all the time in this game. Don't tell me you never notice that here;
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/812590 x https://osu.ppy.sh/s/493830

I have an even better example
MIIRO by Sakaue Nachi; (Hime) -> 00:55:543 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) -
MIIRO by Monstrata ; (TATOE) -> 00:51:692 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) -
MIIRO by sodarose ; (Insane) -> 00:55:543 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7) -
MIIRO by Kawaiwkyik; (Miiro) -> 00:51:754 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2,3,4,5,6,7) -

We have literally at least 4 difficulties ranked with the SAME FLOW and IDENTICAL rhythm with some space variations due to the difficulty range of each of them. This however doesn't mean that you copied Sakaue Nachi's final diff jumps, because, you're not the owner of this pattern. Like pretty much anything in this game, no one posses any idea here. We have people who first used it, but ,by no mean,s there're owners of ideas in this game.

The only thing that really gets me tired of this is because you guys just understood what's going on because this example is just too obvious and even people who don't mod or map can realize the similarities since the song is the same, but this is happening for a very long time now.
It's almost as if "Hey Kroytz, you can't use that there because I've done that in my map of the same song before!"
Then he gets the osu!file simple changes the music and then; "Oh ok, it's fine now."

I don't want to repeat myself, but the major problem is not your map getting copied Monstrata, but everyone making copies of a single mapping indentity that resolves around "polished aesthetic, blanket, hexagons, sharp angle jump flow, etc, etc", that leads into getting maps ranked in the past year.
Everyone is just mapping the same thing over and over again because there's hardly other ways to get things ranked.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/953586 x https://osu.ppy.sh/b/949011

But here we're discussing plagiarism. The only part you could argue that it's copy paste is this 02:40:568 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1) - and tbh why not take this as a simple case of "Hey, you used my pattern you son of a gun! At least mention me :/" and get over it? Think of it as clear mention to your map. Personally I've modded this and mention it as a pattern worth being changed for the sake of making it differently. But it's not like you found the cure of cancer and he stole it, it's just a bunch of sliders being spaced from down-up o.O
Trust me, you're not the first to use it either; https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7229049

Also, plagiarism in osu! should be seen in a really strictive way imo, to the point of actual .osu copy or simple flip cases (in the case of someone getting someone else's map and just flip it horizontally and call their own work). It's clear that Kroytz actually MAPPED the entire thing. He didn't take your map and started making small changes. He can even prove that since he livestreamed him mapping this for 9 hours straight.

I hope Kroytz will consider changing it for the sake of stopping this discussion. I also hope that your actions here as a mapper who feel offended by other copying ideas also reflects on how you nominate maps. Otherwise it's just a hypocritical situation that you don't allow people to copy you, but at the same time, if they don't follow your ideas you will not nominate their maps.
diraimur
weird map
Reinam
I looked through both songs, mapped by you and Monstrata, its the same map, just the jumps are a little bigger and you flipped the map
yasumiya
Im think kroytz map better than monstrata.
Lama Poluna
How many beats you ignore and how many overmap.
chainpullz
I'd just like to point out that you can't copyright ideas and ideas that are "the way anyone would think to do it" never get granted patents. Monstrata's exact implementation may be covered under copyright but there is like what, a single circle that is in the exact same position?

Since this is a rhythm game it would make sense that we take a similar view as the music industry does. Copying a song is legally acceptable so long as you don't copy more than X seconds (I want to say X is 12 but I'm not a lawyer).

Even if you are able to make a compelling argument that Kroytz has copied parts of your map, you also need to make a compelling argument that the amount he copied is too much. Things aren't as black and white as you are trying to make them out to be.
RevenKz
Its true thar kroytz took some ideas from monstrata's mapset, but as i was able to see while watching his stream was that he mapped all with his own creativity, it tooks some time to think on every pattern and think on what was better or not, what was comfortable and what wasn't, he even was like 1 hour in a simple 5 seconds section LUL, but the point is that most of the similarities weresnt on purpose, whats wrong if he had the same idea than monstrata? Its normal, not every map is exactly different tho..
I actually take some ideas from other mapsets when i map and it dont makes me a copier.
So please stop making innecesary drama zzz
Vivyanne
maybe krotyz and monstrata should have the discussion instead of other people coming in and making it drama

even if so my two cents:

I M O some of the patterns monstrata showed seemed way too similar to just be a strange coincedence at this point. i agree with that patterns are not copyrighted or anything and therefore some similar occations could happen, but the amount of patterns that happened to be identical here makes this feel like a lazy job which i didnt expect from a mapper like kroytz. i have high respects for kroytz but not for this map as it mostly shows uncreativity which really hurts me.

Shiirn wrote:

When you want to keep natural flow going with basically one strict rhythm to follow, you're going to end up with similar patterns.
LUL
this is a full disagreement, every mapper has more or less a different mindset and thus will most likely map different patterns, also how a person thinks a song should be mapped is mostly different from all other persons ya. i also believe people should have enough creativity to make different patterns for some occations as well ya
R3K3M
Its hp 6.5 and theres 6 seconds of drain combined at 03:57:837 (1) - and then 04:00:178 (5) - to 04:02:081 (1) -
Maybe insert break time as its after a difficult stream. This allows the player to take a break without losing HP before the hard part.
OsuSupportSucks
Please stop arguing about whether or not this map is a full copy of Monstrata or not. If a GMT or someone of significant power believes this to be stolen/copied then they will deal with it. The only replies on this thread for now should be mods and feedback on the map. If constant replies relating to the drama are to be continued then the thread will be locked permanently and people will end up get silenced as MrSergio said.
I hope there won't be any more drama or memery in here.

Don't make me warn you with a silence please, it is not worth the game, trust me.
Locking for the time being, contact a GMT if you need it unlocked for something actually "useful" to the map.
And also Monstrata has even specified that this should not be about the map as a whole in his statement;
I'm giving every single example of what I as the original mapper felt was a clear copy. Kroytz is a creative mapper, he can easily find a different way to map those sections I pointed out no? And then I would have no qualms about this map.
.

Now that, that is clear i would like to see only constructive replies from now on.


i know i sound a bit like an admin but im just getting annoyed
Aireu
04:19:276 (6,7,8,9,10) - hey man playing this is like stapling your nuts to the roof and jumping off so please change into something flowy
The Emperor
i feel sorry for Kroytz ;n; some sliders and the hole community comes down at him/his map.. yeah some sliders are the same but everything else isnt... try mapping it yourself and see how similar it will become..
gregest

Leggo wrote:

i feel sorry for Kroytz ;n; some sliders and the hole community comes down at him/his map.. yeah some sliders are the same but everything else isnt... try mapping it yourself and see how similar it will become..
I'm sorry but have you read monstrata's comment on the first page? it's definitely more than just "some sliders"

the chances of making so many similar looking things is pretty slim if you start out on different places and crap, but what do I know
God GMN

nibs wrote:

this isn't "copy and pasted"

get off your high horse Monstrata.

there's only a few ways you can map a song that's 99% death metal or whatever it's called. go get a bunch of experienced mappers and give them a dragonforce song, you'll get a few maps that look the same.

"omg this guy made streams and sliders in a place in the song where i put them omg he stole it"
Looking simillar is not like looking copypasted, this map looks literally copied, not inspired.
Liiraye
I think the only way to resolve this is to change the blatantly plagiarized parts and map them in your own rendition, everyone would appreciate that much more.

Just want to say @shiirn

Mapping integrity is something I value a lot, since we don't really get anything else out of mapping than credits for making a good map.
It becomes clear to me that kroytz is with intent copying patterns for successful songs, sometimes even at the same exact spots and posting them on his own maps without any kind of tribute or credits given.

Yes, I do believe what you did on ascension to heaven was wrong, you should have credited the original mapper for it. It's our only currency as mappers after all.

Here's a small bit of patterns I worked hard on myself, which are more or less directly used in his map:

Tonairu

Liiraye wrote:

I think the only way to resolve this is to change the blatantly plagiarized parts and map them in your own rendition, everyone would appreciate that much more.

Just want to say @shiirn

Mapping integrity is something I value a lot, since we don't really get anything else out of mapping than credits for making a good map.
It becomes clear to me that kroytz is with intent copying patterns for successful songs, sometimes even at the same exact spots and posting them on his own maps without any kind of tribute or credits given.

Yes, I do believe what you did on ascension to heaven was wrong, you should have credited the original mapper for it. It's our only currency as mappers after all.

Here's a small bit of patterns I worked hard on myself, which are more or less directly used in his map:

To be fair, those patterns that you showed in that video really can only be mapped that way.
It feels like you're only trying to create more drama.
Liiraye
Yes of course, those are the only ways to map those parts...

If people had that mentality we'd still be stuck in djpops era of mapping buddy. Just because it works doesn't mean there are not others and better ways to map them.
What I was looking forward to was seeing his own rendition of the song with his capabilities, and what I got was some of my favorite patterns I did copied onto his. This is not about making drama, it's about shining light on a problem we should all discuss more.
Spayyce
Where are the rules saying that a rhythm can only be expressed in a certain way on a map?

If there was a rule I would love to see how the 9849350 ranked versions of the same anime op aren't all at a tug of war for who came up with the first pattern combo. Oh, wait it's because they aren't. >.>
Dawns
ITT: Every map has to be different regardless of how limiting certain parts of the song are.

dude it's *whatever genre this falls under*, There is a bunch of streamy parts and wow who would've guessed two experienced mappers mapped streams to that part of the song T ha t's InsanE Who Would have SEEN that coming???

Honestly the map isn't exactly the same and honestly I feel there is no malicious intention by Kroytz, just unnecessary drama because people believe you can now claim some psuedocopyright on your maps even if the music is very limiting to how you can map it.
Alevari
Can we get a clean up of this thread because this is not the place to start witch hunting someone for having a few uncanny resemblances from 1 map to another, if Monstrata is so bothered about the parts that looks the same, then he should be settling it with Kroytz himself not posting it on social media and gathering everyone's attention, especially the ones who don't even map who just end up flaming Kroytz.
Shiirn
@Liiraye

for what it's worth i think kroytz is kind of a cunt for intentionally mapping something in such a similar style to an already ranked version to begin with, but it's hardly going to get him all the credit when people point out the similarities anyway.

Monstrata didn't help the situation by going "I don't want to start drama but..." then posts about it on twitter.

Both sides are cunts.
Seijiro
Wow, gratz guys, I just had to remove 1 page of comments this time but we're still not there.

Titus wrote:

Can we get a clean up of this thread because this is not the place to start witch hunting
wow, calm down there, I'm not paid to clean up the messes you should avoid themselves, you know.
You should mind the way you say things because that sounded like an insult to me. I'm not your janitor :v


@Shiirn, we know how you like to express your opinions, but can you please avoid stirring more drama because someone got triggered by a word?
That would be great.
Cherry Blossom
both maps are shiet, so why are we talking about them ?? xdddddd

Seriously, a majority of my patterns are "stolen" from DaxMasterix, and old shiirn's maps. What's the real problem here ?
But when patterns are stolen from your popular 2016+ mapper, with a few changes, then people just act like kids.

#osu_mapping_community_2017
Liiraye
The fact that an old BN doesn't know the difference between adapting a style inspired by someone else and plagiarism really worries me. How about you look at the facts presented and show me all the other mappers that go around mapping ranked songs with the exact same patterns. Even TV Sizes are different when it's the same song involved.
Cherry Blossom
This was ironic.
Alevari

MrSergio wrote:

Wow, gratz guys, I just had to remove 1 page of comments this time but we're still not there.

Titus wrote:

Can we get a clean up of this thread because this is not the place to start witch hunting
wow, calm down there, I'm not paid to clean up the messes you should avoid themselves, you know.
You should mind the way you say things because that sounded like an insult to me. I'm not your janitor :v


@Shiirn, we know how you like to express your opinions, but can you please avoid stirring more drama because someone got triggered by a word?
That would be great.
Huh? I'm not saying it's your job, just that it's starting to get very hard to actually read a mod or even do one when everyone is basically witch hunting Kroytz right now, not sure how it sounded like an insult to you though, not my intentions.
Epsile
Let's be fair here.
Kroytz mapped this extremely similar to what Monstrata mapped.
Okay, and? Why do we need to start drama over something this silly?
Let it be. Flame me if you want to, I'm just saying that this is uncalled for.
Let the mapper do what they want to do, and don't turn into osu!'s feminazi's.
_handholding
:?

Epsile wrote:

Let's be fair here.
Kroytz mapped this extremely similar to what Monstrata mapped.
Okay, and? Why do we need to start drama over something this silly?
Let it be. Flame me if you want to, I'm just saying that this is uncalled for.
Let the mapper do what they want to do, and don't turn into osu!'s feminazi's.
ok first off plagiarism is against the rules. Heck a TV size map was warned by QAT because the last 10 secs were mapped exactly the same as another ranked map (funny enough it was one of monstrata's maps; no I'm going to link it).

As for uncalled for? how is it uncalled for to say that he plagiarized someone's map when he did?????????????? It's impossible to be subconsciously inspired so much to the point that the patterns are almost the exact same, it's pretty obvious that he looked very hard at monstrata's diff extensively.

I don't even like monstrata or his fan base but the fact he tried to take offence when accused of plagiarizing is fucking laughable and stupid af.

"let the mapper do what they what to do". Ok let other people copy off each other's test or homework or high profile studies (w/e so I couldn't think of better examples) because it's what they want to do.... Yh no

Ppl getting angry that Kroytz is breaking the fucking rules and just disrespecting other mapper's isn't flame. Fucking hell. Just look at it from a third person's perspective and not from kroytz's point of view

Epsile wrote:

Let's be fair here.
Let's be fair and inform the mapper that copying is against the rules????? :thinking:
[]
PS: Your avatar pisses me off because it's giving me a clueless look that I imagine you are giving to your computer screen rn because you can't understand why people can't just "map how they want to do" when it's "extremely close" to someone else's map
Ora
Kisses couldn't have said it better. But I still can't understand why anyone would plagiarize like this though. It makes the map seem effortless which is pretty disrespectful to the goal of mapping in my opinion. It would be nice to hear some sort of explaination. It's a bit of an awkward situation and it's more than obvious. I think I can speak for the majority of mappers and say that if we were in monstrata's shoes we wouldn't want the same thing happening to our maps. I didn't think it was that serious until I saw monstrata's 2nd post

@shiirn mapping styles aren't something that stick for a couple months and then suddenly change. Mapping is changing constantly everyday. I haven't seen the full map of this yet, but from the many examples that monstrata posted, there's only a few where kroytz "tweaked" some patterns, while the rest were just blatant copy/paste. There's no thought that goes into something like that. It's effortless, lazy, and in a way just plain disrespectful. The worst part about this is that he's mapping the exact same song to rank it (while taking his patterns) which is an even bigger fuck you to monstrata. You wouldn't want me going into one of your maps, taking a pattern, increasing some DS, and ranking the same map while not even crediting you (let alone asking you) would you? That's not how mapping evolves, which is why nobody does it. Lilraye makes a great point:

Liiraye wrote:

If people had that mentality we'd still be stuck in djpops era of mapping buddy. Just because it works doesn't mean there are not others and better ways to map them.
Topic Starter
Kroytz
mod responses

Net0 wrote:

[General]
  1. Tags; You could add kawaii metal. Some use it to refer to this musical style. Especially babymetal. I don't know about this one since it's still metal... I've never heard of 'kawaii metal' before so I'll just leave this out >>
  2. There’s a lot of inherented points at the same time; whoops, fixed.
  3. Unsnapped objects 04:17:957 (4,5) fixed -
[Crimson Rebellion ]
  1. There’s a missing stream sounds in a lot of patterns in the first kiai here 01:08:885 - between this two 01:08:812 (6,7) -; 01:10:715 (3,4) -;01:11:154 (5,6) -;01:11:373 - . I think that either you wanted it to be a more friendly start without many streams mapped or maybe you want to keep the pattern wise jump flow intentionally. Just mentioning this to suggest you to maybe make this more stream like since your map appeal are streams mostly. The first strum of the guitar holds the triple while the rest of the picking is on 1/2 for this. Adding triples to the rest wouldn't make the first triple stand out as much in the measure.

  2. This pattern 01:09:837 (5,6,7,8,9) - currently works visually blanketing this object 01:10:422 (1) - , but I believe that 01:10:129 (9) – could work better visually if it was positioned as one the circles of this star you have used here 01:10:276 (10,1,2,3) - . This is a nice suggestion, I actually did try to do that before. The only way it would work would be for (9,1) to be spaced higher meaning the stream would be way bigger and I wouldn't want that. This little makeshift star is as close as its gonna get without it being overspaced.
  3. I don’t get why lowering spacing here 01:12:764 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - works better than what you have done before 01:02:227 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - . At first you solo works with a consistent spacing and then changes into kick sliders that speeds up the cursor movement. On the previous pattern I’ve mentioned you have done low spacing streams with less emphasis. I kinda get it it’s a personal perspective that the guitar could work with less intensity at this part 01:12:764 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) – but in real terms, it’s just that the sounds are not so acute but feels excessive the way you have lowered it. Especially considering the contrast that the following jumps 01:13:934 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2) – have with this stream. I think you've explained my reasoning lol. The contrast between low DS streams into higher spaced jumps was the idea. With the first tornado stream, there aren't isolated drums to make for 1/2s but a kickslider into larger spaced stream to get the riff boost.
  4. This could fit better 01:26:081 (2) - into this pattern 01:26:081 (2,4,6) - if positioned in x:227 y:359 to make it equidistant. Sure thing.
  5. I don’t really see why overlapping this 02:23:812 (12,13) - . If it’s a kick slider pattern idea 02:23:885 (13,14) – this seems off compared to the other ones 02:15:617 (6,7,8,9,8,9,9,10,12,13) - . Here’s a suggestion http://puu.sh/tNbbf.jpg but do it however you want. Hm, yeah I tried to position this a bit elsewhere but the slider-end of the first kick makes for a blanket on the 1/2 slider in the next measure. The way it plays is more of a back and forth jump so it's not too awkward for players.
  6. Don’t do it 02:40:568 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1) - . Looks great and spacing emphasis is good, however you can avoid this pattern mainly because this could be mapped with any other kick slider pattern without causing commotion with the community because it’s pretty similar to the other ranked version and this is the only part that I felt like commenting over this “issue”. Like this idea here 02:51:105 (1,2,3,4) – but horizontally mapped instead of vertical for example. I'll change this~
  7. This slider end 02:56:373 (1) - could be pointing at the next stream instead of how it is now. Just a simple copy paste ctrol+H and replace imo works great. http://puu.sh/tNbIF.jpg If I do that then the lead-in to the slider is reversed lol.

It’s a really well done map. Pretty polished and shows you had a lot of effort into its aesthetic. I really like the fact that you didn’t spike the difficulty as much as the other ranked version. We can see some pretty spaced streams early on the map and that helps you getting a more consistently wise map. Unlike many people think, this mapset actually adds a good different experience compared to the other version especially because this one is harder.

Best of luck o/
Thanks for the mod Net0~

@R3K3M It wouldn't fit for approval time.

@Aireu: 04:19:276 (6,7,8,9,10) - hey man playing this is like stapling your nuts to the roof and jumping off so please change into something flowy I make the circly part a bit wider so your nuts can be safe.

@Everyone else: If you have issues with the map, specify where and why they are issues and I can try to respond to them, thread isn't for flame and arguments, make for constructive criticisms to help for improvements. The rising ladder kicks at ~2:40 was the only pattern deliberately copied (albeit slightly altered but still copied) so I apologize for that since it was wrong of me to do so and that's why I've agreed to make a different pattern for all your good reasons~ As far as all the other nuances pointed out, I can't say much for since they are very suspicious from both a mapper and non-mapper point of view.

Lets go on an exhibit:I generally prefer symmetries when it comes to kick sliders as can be seen in most of my maps:
Exhibit A

^ Could this be elsewhere? So why was it on the same side that monstrata did it? I mean, there's many different ways to map this, to me personally, I envision it looking like this and being either on the left or right side of the editor. I could map it towards the bottom, or the top, maybe a different kick pattern entirely but that wouldn't be pleasant for me as with any other object placement I do. Just because it can be done dozens of different ways doesn't mean it has to be, at the end of it all, it just becomes a preference or taste.

What about the designs of streams? Well let's look at some more pictures lol. My stream designs are quite typical and logical to me. To say that I 'copied' them is a bit of a stretch in my opinion. But hey! Why were they identical at around the same times then? Maybe it's possible we both had similar ideas, but different reasonings? I don't know how monstrata came up with his stuff.

The biggest one I find is how the two maps are structured. Maybe to a player they both play similarly but how they're structured at the core is quite different. Let's take a look shall we?

Exhibit C (monstrata)
Okay so we got nothing new going on with monstrata style here. These are only but some because this is a 5 minute song after all, but the idea is a lot of his jump patterns and style of structure revolves around triangles/hexagrid formations. Nothing wrong with this, it plays fine afterall and that's how he wanted to do things.





Exhibit C (Kroytz)
But what about my structure? My style of structure is also a bit keen on some triangle bases, but not to the extent of monstrata. Generally, I try to use triangles as a way to separate space usage from each other as to not give unpleasant overlaps. And overlaps themselves are usually blankets under circles or sliders cuz that is logical to me. Maybe monstrata also does the same? But so do a lot of other mappers because this formation of structure is not unique, its quite generic.





Even when I glance at both of the structures they are quite similar and that's simply because him and I use a lot of equidistant rotational angles and triangulation. Not just this song/map specifically but in general I'd say.
Blankets underneath streams isn't a new idea and it's something that I've been doing in almost all my maps. It looks visually appealing and I wouldn't be surprised if any other mapper does it.


Yes, there are a lot of similarities and the point that monstrata was making was 'why do they have to be SO similar at these PRECISE times?' and again I can't really answer that because I just map to how I see fit the music. Yes I understand there are a plethora of ways you can map any given sound or object, but if what looks or sounds logical to me somehow matches up with another mapper's logic, who's to say who's right or wrong there?

Edit: apparently i need to activate windows lolololol
Edit2: slightly formatted better
Monstrata
You provide some strong evidence as to why those patterns that appear very similar might just be due to your predisposition as a mapper. It's a general overview of your mapping, and your argument on the streams is enough for me. I still think some of the more specific circle/slider patterns are just far too similar to be borne completely out of a similar mapping philosophy because honestly our styles are not very similar - especially in freedom of note-placement. I favor a much more rigid structure that in many cases only allows me 3-4 different logical places to put my next object. In regard to pattern freedom, your style is much looser and you can actually place your next object in a variety of "general locations" whereas my structured style specifically restricts me to specific coordinates to fit my structure. That why, when I see some of these patterns I go "huh, you had a lot more freedom of pattern choice, yet you come up with the same pattern at the same time at the same location on the screen at similar angles/slider orientations etc..." Like you said though, no one can really judge for sure whether you just happened to think the same as me on multiple locations. With that in mind then, lets consider your intention for making this map.

If I understand the intention of this map correctly, your objective was to map a new and unique version of Road of Resistance that offered players a different approach to the song - one that specifically differed from how I mapped it. "No more monstrata" or something lol. Wouldn't it make sense to do something different for those sections now that I've pointed out how similar they are to my version? Your objective is to create a map that's different from mine after all, so at those sections where your approach was identical to mine, consider changing your approach because that would result in patterns that differed from mine - which would support your goal of creating a map that approaches the song differently compared to my version.
Topic Starter
Kroytz
Incorrect monstrata, my objective for this map wasn't to give players a different approach, or a new and unique version of anything. Initially, I said I would create a "better" RoR but that's quite arrogant of me to say and rather subjective. Whether one person or another says which version they like more doesn't matter to me personally, I simply wanted to map this song. The "no more mr monstrata" thing was a loose way of saying "no more triangles" since your version is heavily based around triangles - again, that's not wrong (since a lot of people love it) but just not how I envision a babymetal/dragonforce map to look like. If people like yours the way its mapped that's fine too, I think it's a solid map. My objective for this map was to simply just... map. I've always liked the song and I wanted to do one, but never got around to it when I saw you were mapping it long time ago. I haven't mapped anything for a while either and so I really just wanted to make something since some people thought it would be cool if I did one and I was itching to do this song too. Not every map needs a clear goal to accomplish. Sometimes it's okay to map something because you want to.
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