Converted maps are just GOOD EXAMPLES in this case5urface wrote:
So, will this apply to converts as well?
I disagreed that big notes can be combobreak
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Taiko ScoreV2 Discussion
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I disagreed that big notes can be combobreak
Considering some posts and how people react in #taiko (which have become calmer by now tho), we should all take a step back, breathe in and out a few times and then actually see what this actually all means to us.
First of all, this is not about whether stuff will be implemented or not. That's out of the current question. Right now it is just requesting help from the community to help testing and refine current planed changes for the upcoming TWC with constructive and reasonable responses. So despite some wanting to show their dissatisfaction about this, it means not to rage around and predict the apocalypse of Taiko because it is in ones opinion bad. We need reasons (which some provided by now while I was writing) how to improve the mentioned points in the OP so smoogie can work with people to implement changes to make sure the scoring system works well for everyone. So I please you to follow this and stop bashing at each other. We can do better than this. Much better. Besides, so far only possible bad impacts have been mentioned but no one mentioned the good aspect of such change which I want to elaborate a bit (not exhaustive, since we don't wanna write a (big) wall of text, right?).
First of all, this is not about whether stuff will be implemented or not. That's out of the current question. Right now it is just requesting help from the community to help testing and refine current planed changes for the upcoming TWC with constructive and reasonable responses. So despite some wanting to show their dissatisfaction about this, it means not to rage around and predict the apocalypse of Taiko because it is in ones opinion bad. We need reasons (which some provided by now while I was writing) how to improve the mentioned points in the OP so smoogie can work with people to implement changes to make sure the scoring system works well for everyone. So I please you to follow this and stop bashing at each other. We can do better than this. Much better. Besides, so far only possible bad impacts have been mentioned but no one mentioned the good aspect of such change which I want to elaborate a bit (not exhaustive, since we don't wanna write a (big) wall of text, right?).
- Finisher: Big topic first, as our people seem to be for some reason terrified about the Finisher purpose with certain reasons(you don't have to repeat them at this point, we hear you!). Yes, in current test phase they are enforced. But whether they stay like that or not, such change gives us the possibility to have a ""new"" gameplay element in Taiko which finally makes it possible to compete against each other in a different aspect that is something else but DT for example. It is something our mode needs anyway, considering our stagnating situation and the fact that we managed it to be the least played mode, which has also a bit to do with the inaccessible possibility to compete in different ways.
- Sliders and Spinners: First, you really have to apologize this, but I'm amused how people talk about their purpose of implementation while 95% didn't even remotely witnessed the time it happened. Their insignificance crystallizes from the mode being previously a mod much like HD or HR which was just a 1 to 1 copy of TNT. There was no concept for these elements at all since even the Spinner just got adapted from the standard mode itself. We are with Taiko still in the year 2008 and really need an update which you may understand after this:
As some already said, they were until now by far too insignificant in mapping and hence, not representive in gameplay either. The reason for this however are the bugs these game-elements since over 8 years have: Missing / offbeat sliderticks and big spinners which overlap upcoming notes, that generated over the years very stiff and restrictive rules for these elements. This is why we never see for example 1/4+sliders or very short spinners in a consecutive way. This is the first approach to fix such issues by finally shifting the significance to these two elements. - Converts: While not sure why this is even a topic, I just want to mention that these will be (probably(let's be safe here)) sooner or later removed anyway as they were never a part of the game itself and just a compensation years ago when there were no specific Taiko maps at all. The random concept for converts has little to do with how Taiko works and hence has no impact into this topic at all.
- HP: The biggest issue we have right now is the HP penality by missing a note which must be scaled down(especially because of already existing maps). So does a HP 6 map give you a fail after missing only 8 notes, which, when considering the possible finisher changes, is more than unforgiven. Also, connected with this is the notelock problem as people mentioned already. By hitting once the wrong note in a stream, it becomes nearly impossible to get into the stream again which makes one instantly fail after 8 notes. I did my test obviously, and aproximately HP 1 would be only feasable atm, but since the HP issues is known already anyway(as Loctav mentioned more than enough of times) it is enough to just give that impression and wait for further changes. Here a little list about this matter:
HP 1: Fail -> 21 notes; Pass -> 20 notes
HP 3: Fail -> 12 notes; Pass -> 11 notes
HP 6: Fail -> 08 notes; Pass -> 07 notes - Finisher: While being fine with them, they are unforgiving when appearing in a consecutive way like for example in Hige Driver join. SELEN - DA^10 with the current HP system. Once the HP system is fixed, that should be no problem anymore.
- Slider: The concept looks good, but since the significance of sliders rise, the significance of their bug fixes rises as well:
→ TWC related: When you place a drum roll in a 1/4 distance to the previous note the ticks become offbeat. Should be fixed.
→ General related: It should be avoided that maps only have one predefined tickrate the whole way through. Rather, it should be possible to have different tickrates in a map since different timing signatures may appear or certain 1/4 may simply just be too much / not fitting to the song. In this way it could be also considered to hit finisher sliders with both fingers when being able to change the tickrate manually. - Spinner: As they become more significant as well, it should be considered to change the look of spinners to avoid them overlapping the whole playfild. In this way they can be used in a broader way.
Let's face it, I don't like the changes. There are many points as to why I don't like propositions - they're mostly judged through theory, I haven't had the chance to look at current scoring mode.
First of all, please do not compare two game modes. osu!mania has many things Taiko can't do: chordstreams, quadstreams, ln noodle spam, variable scrolling speed, casually hit 20 notes per second, and I sure do know I'm missing a lot more.
A little correction though, about normal notes:
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For finishers, the 100 penalty makes no sense whatsoever in two positions:
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Rolls: I am strongly against forcing 1/4 snapping by all means. Force it on maps that don't use 3 slider tick rate, which is the only way to have 1/3 ticks. Other than that, I am ambivalent about the idea. It should depend on the song's speed, because hitting extreme speeds at 1/4 will never be done. Also, issues Ono mentioned: tick glitches.
Another solution would be to bring back spam sliders, score yield set to about 1 and added independently from the max score, so the max score is still 1,000,000 plus ticks hit. I don't remember how osu!standard spinners work in ScoreV2, though. It may be like this.
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Spinners:
I am against giving a miss upon unsuccessful spinner completion, rather giving it only by hitting less than half the hits (except for short spinners requiring fewer than 4 hits), giving a 100 between miss threshold and completion (+ short spinners), and 300 upon completion.
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Also, do not try to copy a gamemode's HP system. The values will be imbalanced if you do it. As Ono mentioned (and I trust him), this is not a good idea because you can miss a very tiny amount of notes and fail. While in osu!mania you can recover it quickly, in taiko you can't have the luxury of 25 notes per second to let you recover from a small choke. At least, adjust the values so it's more balanced!
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At first I was quite revolted with the idea of changing everything but by discussing with some pals I realized there can be something done. My suggestions may not be the best, but I think that, as someone who's fiddled with the settings and found how everything can work together, you should at least see if any of these are good starting points.
First of all, please do not compare two game modes. osu!mania has many things Taiko can't do: chordstreams, quadstreams, ln noodle spam, variable scrolling speed, casually hit 20 notes per second, and I sure do know I'm missing a lot more.
A little correction though, about normal notes:
Normal notes are unchanged. Scoring is 300 for an accurate hit, 100 for an inaccurate hit.I think you meant 150. Inaccurate hits were never a third of the max score, they were half. If you have changed the behavior of score to become 100 rather than 150, this is a change.
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For finishers, the 100 penalty makes no sense whatsoever in two positions:
- This makes accuracy count slightly wrong, ever so in more finisher heavy maps. You should judge accuracy though correct hitting of the notes in time, rather than how they were hit.
- Not applying the x4 bonus upon single-hitting the note and giving a 300 is a penalty large enough (you only get a quarter of the points after all) to give players an incentive to hit them all.
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Rolls: I am strongly against forcing 1/4 snapping by all means. Force it on maps that don't use 3 slider tick rate, which is the only way to have 1/3 ticks. Other than that, I am ambivalent about the idea. It should depend on the song's speed, because hitting extreme speeds at 1/4 will never be done. Also, issues Ono mentioned: tick glitches.
Another solution would be to bring back spam sliders, score yield set to about 1 and added independently from the max score, so the max score is still 1,000,000 plus ticks hit. I don't remember how osu!standard spinners work in ScoreV2, though. It may be like this.
———
Spinners:
I am against giving a miss upon unsuccessful spinner completion, rather giving it only by hitting less than half the hits (except for short spinners requiring fewer than 4 hits), giving a 100 between miss threshold and completion (+ short spinners), and 300 upon completion.
———
Also, do not try to copy a gamemode's HP system. The values will be imbalanced if you do it. As Ono mentioned (and I trust him), this is not a good idea because you can miss a very tiny amount of notes and fail. While in osu!mania you can recover it quickly, in taiko you can't have the luxury of 25 notes per second to let you recover from a small choke. At least, adjust the values so it's more balanced!
———
At first I was quite revolted with the idea of changing everything but by discussing with some pals I realized there can be something done. My suggestions may not be the best, but I think that, as someone who's fiddled with the settings and found how everything can work together, you should at least see if any of these are good starting points.
ok fine, i'll reply again about what the big problem will be with the new HP system
currently all maps in taiko were designed for the current HP system. if i'm an experienced mapper, i know when to use HP5, HP6, etc. i know for long marathons i that i should drop to HP4 or below so players can pass. the new ranking criteria for kantan difficulties are pushing for more use of HP9 because they're too easy to pass otherwise. everything is done for a reason.
now think about this, you introduce a completely new form of HP. HP is now drain rate instead of recovery rate. what does that mean? it means all of the current HP values need to be flipped around. HP9 on a kantan suddenly isn't a good idea because new players will fail instantly with a single mistake. your HP4 marathon maps are now much easier to pass than they were before, and they're easier to pass than random HP6 maps. the current values for HP just won't make sense.
there's not much of a point adjusting the new system to work well on every current map and every HP value. (though if you do i'll be very impressed because that's gonna take a lot of tweaking, i've done a lot of development and testing stuff so i know how this works.) but in my opinion, making a new system and then having to fit the thousands of taiko maps already out there just doesn't seem like the right approach. and obviously you're not going to change the HP values for every single map that has already been made.
maybe the new HP system was a good idea on paper, but it just doesn't fit right at all to me.
currently all maps in taiko were designed for the current HP system. if i'm an experienced mapper, i know when to use HP5, HP6, etc. i know for long marathons i that i should drop to HP4 or below so players can pass. the new ranking criteria for kantan difficulties are pushing for more use of HP9 because they're too easy to pass otherwise. everything is done for a reason.
now think about this, you introduce a completely new form of HP. HP is now drain rate instead of recovery rate. what does that mean? it means all of the current HP values need to be flipped around. HP9 on a kantan suddenly isn't a good idea because new players will fail instantly with a single mistake. your HP4 marathon maps are now much easier to pass than they were before, and they're easier to pass than random HP6 maps. the current values for HP just won't make sense.
there's not much of a point adjusting the new system to work well on every current map and every HP value. (though if you do i'll be very impressed because that's gonna take a lot of tweaking, i've done a lot of development and testing stuff so i know how this works.) but in my opinion, making a new system and then having to fit the thousands of taiko maps already out there just doesn't seem like the right approach. and obviously you're not going to change the HP values for every single map that has already been made.
maybe the new HP system was a good idea on paper, but it just doesn't fit right at all to me.
So when are we going to discuss Star Rating and PP?smoogipooo wrote:
Please, do not discuss Star Rating and PP here.
hey so im pretty bad at taiko, but here are my opinions anyways:
- Finishers: I think this is a good change. I always saw hitting finishers with one note to be analogous to "slider cheesing" in standard. I hate to bring up the "intended playing experience", but I think that is relevant here. About this breaking some unranked/loved maps, ya that fuckin sucks. I hate this answer, but the only thing I can think of is having a mod that makes the map "finisher-less" for maybe like 0.9x score
- Drum rolls/spinners: Seems good on paper, but I'm not good enough to provide my own real opinions. What others have said about slider tick-locking seems valid, and that should be fixed.
- Health: So there's a pretty interesting circumstance here... As someone who comes from playing osu!standard and osu!mania, I'm uneasy with the concept of playing through an entire map out of my skill level, and only being punished at the end. That seems like the purpose of NF (with the punishment being, of course, the reduced score). While I don't know much about the scaling of this, I much prefer this new health system. I don't think there will be a huge difference except for beginners (such as myself), and I'll say that being able to know where you need more practice can be beneficial and motivating. About the notelocking thing, uhh, remove that, notelocking is stupid lol.
- 1 Million score limit: Only bringing this up because it's the perfect place to bring up the following. The reason scorev2 is being brought upon us is as an attempt to unify the currently very different gamemodes. I think this is a good idea, as they are, after all, all part of one game. Especially with the modularity of gamemodes that will be introduced, I believe it will be important to make some common mechanics (score, health, etc) somewhat similar across them. This is, however very challenging, because the vastly gameplay of each mode naturally brings up very different scoring systems, as the values of each mode are different (score is meant to be a representation of skill, after all). I don't have a solution, but I wanted to bring this up just so that people have that in mind while suggesting stuff. Though most of the suggestions have been about mechanics unique to taiko so maybe typing all this was a waste of time lol.
About the score limit itself, I don't really think it matters. It's just a different scaling.
Hopefully my thoughts from a taiko noob makes you think idk.
PS: what even is the point of the scorev2 mod ahah. i mean i guess its to try to get more testing on scorev2, but no one is ever going to use it because scores dont submit. if you actually want people to test your thing, make it calculate the scorev1 during the play, and submit that.
PSS (edit): Someone brought up the different playstyles a while ago (too lazy to quote). I think that the vastly different playstyles used by all sorts of taiko players is one of the best things about the gamemode. I think that the reason for this diversity comes from the freedom of how to hit the notes, like singletapping vs alternating on steroids. However there is a limit. People who play osu!std with mouse-only are at a disadvantage, just like 1 finger players should IMO. i probably triggered so many people xd
- Finishers: I think this is a good change. I always saw hitting finishers with one note to be analogous to "slider cheesing" in standard. I hate to bring up the "intended playing experience", but I think that is relevant here. About this breaking some unranked/loved maps, ya that fuckin sucks. I hate this answer, but the only thing I can think of is having a mod that makes the map "finisher-less" for maybe like 0.9x score
- Drum rolls/spinners: Seems good on paper, but I'm not good enough to provide my own real opinions. What others have said about slider tick-locking seems valid, and that should be fixed.
- Health: So there's a pretty interesting circumstance here... As someone who comes from playing osu!standard and osu!mania, I'm uneasy with the concept of playing through an entire map out of my skill level, and only being punished at the end. That seems like the purpose of NF (with the punishment being, of course, the reduced score). While I don't know much about the scaling of this, I much prefer this new health system. I don't think there will be a huge difference except for beginners (such as myself), and I'll say that being able to know where you need more practice can be beneficial and motivating. About the notelocking thing, uhh, remove that, notelocking is stupid lol.
- 1 Million score limit: Only bringing this up because it's the perfect place to bring up the following. The reason scorev2 is being brought upon us is as an attempt to unify the currently very different gamemodes. I think this is a good idea, as they are, after all, all part of one game. Especially with the modularity of gamemodes that will be introduced, I believe it will be important to make some common mechanics (score, health, etc) somewhat similar across them. This is, however very challenging, because the vastly gameplay of each mode naturally brings up very different scoring systems, as the values of each mode are different (score is meant to be a representation of skill, after all). I don't have a solution, but I wanted to bring this up just so that people have that in mind while suggesting stuff. Though most of the suggestions have been about mechanics unique to taiko so maybe typing all this was a waste of time lol.
About the score limit itself, I don't really think it matters. It's just a different scaling.
Hopefully my thoughts from a taiko noob makes you think idk.
PS: what even is the point of the scorev2 mod ahah. i mean i guess its to try to get more testing on scorev2, but no one is ever going to use it because scores dont submit. if you actually want people to test your thing, make it calculate the scorev1 during the play, and submit that.
PSS (edit): Someone brought up the different playstyles a while ago (too lazy to quote). I think that the vastly different playstyles used by all sorts of taiko players is one of the best things about the gamemode. I think that the reason for this diversity comes from the freedom of how to hit the notes, like singletapping vs alternating on steroids. However there is a limit. People who play osu!std with mouse-only are at a disadvantage, just like 1 finger players should IMO. i probably triggered so many people xd
I might as well leave my few quick thoughts on score v2. Since this seems to be focused on ranked taiko maps, I'll leave any comments on converts and unranked maps (namely gimmicky ones) in spoilers. (note: edited a couple things for more clarity)
For finishers, I think the best way to implement this is keeping it like v1, where hitting the note with one key is worth much less points, but has the same accuracy and doesn't affect combo. With the new 1 million top score, it would be easier to understand how the finishers affect the total score, and it rewards players who hit finishers much more than it does in score v1. As long as they aren't combo-breakers, I'm fine with them. The timing on finishers would probably have to be cleaned up, too. Gimmick maps seem to be gaining popularity, so I don't think they should be ignored entirely. I think maps like Planet/Shaper will end up being broken with v2 no matter what happens, but it would be nice to be able to play some of the tamer ones with tons of finishers (cirno's math class). As for converts... well, they had it coming to them. It would certainly make the leaderboards for them interesting, so long as anyone still plays them.
I like the changes to sliders, here. Like the finishers, the timing would probably have to be cleaned up since if the note is too close to the slider, it makes it easy for the slider to not register any hits. The new slider scoring stops people from getting #1 on easy converts with HT
Also I know there's some unranked maps with dumb sliders (including TnT songs) that would make a combo-break with a slider very annoying. They already affect the total score out of 1 million, so perhaps they don't need to combo-break? It's only a small problem.
No problems with the spinners. Having them miss might affect a few gimmick maps with spinner spam. I never liked spinner spam in gimmick maps to begin with, though... Not a big problem, regardless.
I like the new HP system, too. It's annoying to get to the end of a hard map wondering if you have enough hp, only to find out you failed. I played through some HP10 maps in v2, and I was fine with how the drain worked. It seems you guys will be tweaking this, anyways. It makes failing to 1/8 in converts a thing, but I usually end up not passing heavy 1/8 spam maps anyways.
The scoring is fine, from what I've seen. I've always liked accuracy based scoring more than combo, and this is much more forgiving with combo-breaks, which is helpful, considering that there's more ways to break combo now.
In short, I don't like the new sources of combo-breaks, and the finishers are somewhat wonky, but pretty much everything else is fine.
For finishers, I think the best way to implement this is keeping it like v1, where hitting the note with one key is worth much less points, but has the same accuracy and doesn't affect combo. With the new 1 million top score, it would be easier to understand how the finishers affect the total score, and it rewards players who hit finishers much more than it does in score v1. As long as they aren't combo-breakers, I'm fine with them. The timing on finishers would probably have to be cleaned up, too. Gimmick maps seem to be gaining popularity, so I don't think they should be ignored entirely. I think maps like Planet/Shaper will end up being broken with v2 no matter what happens, but it would be nice to be able to play some of the tamer ones with tons of finishers (cirno's math class). As for converts... well, they had it coming to them. It would certainly make the leaderboards for them interesting, so long as anyone still plays them.
I like the changes to sliders, here. Like the finishers, the timing would probably have to be cleaned up since if the note is too close to the slider, it makes it easy for the slider to not register any hits. The new slider scoring stops people from getting #1 on easy converts with HT
Also I know there's some unranked maps with dumb sliders (including TnT songs) that would make a combo-break with a slider very annoying. They already affect the total score out of 1 million, so perhaps they don't need to combo-break? It's only a small problem.No problems with the spinners. Having them miss might affect a few gimmick maps with spinner spam. I never liked spinner spam in gimmick maps to begin with, though... Not a big problem, regardless.
I like the new HP system, too. It's annoying to get to the end of a hard map wondering if you have enough hp, only to find out you failed. I played through some HP10 maps in v2, and I was fine with how the drain worked. It seems you guys will be tweaking this, anyways. It makes failing to 1/8 in converts a thing, but I usually end up not passing heavy 1/8 spam maps anyways.
The scoring is fine, from what I've seen. I've always liked accuracy based scoring more than combo, and this is much more forgiving with combo-breaks, which is helpful, considering that there's more ways to break combo now.
In short, I don't like the new sources of combo-breaks, and the finishers are somewhat wonky, but pretty much everything else is fine.
After ranting about it before now I went and actually played a couple of maps in Score V2 and surprise surprise - the current system is surprisingly .... bad.
Before seriously implementing v2 the bugs need to be fixed, especially drumroll and spinner hit registration.
With those fixes in place making these elements hit objects that can break combo is fine.
HP drain as of right now is utterly brutal, this still needs serious rebalance. If this is properly balanced to not instakill you when you miss one note in a stream you can't get back into because Taiko is being Taiko the new system might be decent.
Finishers that break combo need to go. Just award points and accuracy like a regular note if hit with one button and award 4x score if hit with both - This is enough incentive to play them and punishment if not played to full potential especially considering the new maximum score.
Also this would not entirely break converts (in case Score V2 will ever make it to the main client as scoring system). Hate them as you may, they are a part of Osu! Taiko and are ranked so you have to bear with it. Many play converts because they are a different challenge to regular Taiko maps, are actually fun to play and many songs aren't mapped in Taiko. Some people actually play for the music and not pp -.-
The main issue I still have is that the entire map pool is based on and balanced around the current system. With literally tens of thousands of maps to consider rebalancing this will be impossible, some maps will come out ahead, some behind and some will be entirely broken to crash and burn in most spectecular fashion. While most ranked maps might be at least somewhat okay this will be most evident in the vast selection of unranked maps that are such a crucial part of the taiko community.
Who are you to deny the efforts and time those map creators have sacrificed to offer the community this amazing mappool only to have their work be rendered useless by a new scoring system?
Before seriously implementing v2 the bugs need to be fixed, especially drumroll and spinner hit registration.
With those fixes in place making these elements hit objects that can break combo is fine.
HP drain as of right now is utterly brutal, this still needs serious rebalance. If this is properly balanced to not instakill you when you miss one note in a stream you can't get back into because Taiko is being Taiko the new system might be decent.
Finishers that break combo need to go. Just award points and accuracy like a regular note if hit with one button and award 4x score if hit with both - This is enough incentive to play them and punishment if not played to full potential especially considering the new maximum score.
Also this would not entirely break converts (in case Score V2 will ever make it to the main client as scoring system). Hate them as you may, they are a part of Osu! Taiko and are ranked so you have to bear with it. Many play converts because they are a different challenge to regular Taiko maps, are actually fun to play and many songs aren't mapped in Taiko. Some people actually play for the music and not pp -.-
The main issue I still have is that the entire map pool is based on and balanced around the current system. With literally tens of thousands of maps to consider rebalancing this will be impossible, some maps will come out ahead, some behind and some will be entirely broken to crash and burn in most spectecular fashion. While most ranked maps might be at least somewhat okay this will be most evident in the vast selection of unranked maps that are such a crucial part of the taiko community.
Who are you to deny the efforts and time those map creators have sacrificed to offer the community this amazing mappool only to have their work be rendered useless by a new scoring system?
Jason X wrote:
"but you don't miss"Loctav wrote:
whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.
i guess that mean i can't pass it, cause it was counted as misses
and me ...
If we are going to mention notelocking as an issue in this thread, I want to know if anything will be done about map-specific SV (not HR) on 16:9 vs. 4:3 screen resolutions?
I have already got used to 16:9 a bit more over the past months, but as a 4:3 resolution main I've attempted some comparisons and I came to the conclusion that it seems like the viewfield-width on 16:9 is not being scaled properly to map-SV like HR is (or even HD with its black rectangle on the right) and causes maps with fast SV to become much easier to read compared to 4:3, resulting 4:3 to be more of a handicap than anything.
With this being focused on for TWC 2017, I want to add to that focus by alluding this SV-scaling issue. My fear is that devs/map pickers are not aware of this and will pick maps that are close to impossible to read with 4:3, albeit this point may be subjective and egocentric. However, in TWC 2016 Finals DT map pool, this map was picked and I was certain to bail out from playing this because this was extremely harsh to read on 4:3. The map is fast on 16:9 too, yes, but I noticed I was able to combo it much better, eventually getting a sloppy Full Combo during a session with 16:9.
Concluding, I do want to point out it was not my aim to appear salty by mentioning this, given that with 16:9 most of the PP rewarding standard converts like this map appear easier to play and me still playing 4:3, but it is still an issue which at least has earned the right to be mentioned. I haven't checked 16:9 vs. 4:3 scaling on the other modes, but if they do scale, then it is definitely an issue. I will also say that I'm not hoping for a fix anytime soon, as I can see such a fix having no purpose if 4:3 is perhaps being removed entirely with osu!next, but I am hoping to at least have awoken some attention towards 4:3 players, so maps like YuYu Metal can be avoided for the upcoming TWC.
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As with scorev2:
You have issued more mechanics that will change with scorev2 than actual "score" elements. So what are the changes to scoring going to be? The only thing I see is implied by OP, where there is going to be a 1,000,000 score cap like in mania and standard (afaik), and it is also stated that normal notes will continue to give a constant value towards that score. But how are you going to make sure the 1,000,000 score cap is reached? The points given must scale somehow to presume that cap, right? How will that be done? Is it just going to be along the lines of "single_note_score = 1,000,000 / (Total Notes - (Other score%s))"? How much is the score affected by Combo like it is at the moment with its original Taiko no Tatsujin scoring increments until 100 Combo? Will there be penalties for missing like in standard? Forgive me if that has been said before, but I do want some clarification here.
Otherwise:
- osu!mania HP drain is harsh but not as harsh as osu!standard, so objectively I'm fine with the HP drain thing coming to osu!taiko, as long as notelocking will be fixed. However, I do agree with some people mentioning already existing maps being in a disadvantageous spot if this were to be implemented. I'd vouch for a HP drain rate value that scales to e.g. OD instead of having HP as a separate value set by the mapper next to OD.
- Spinners and drum rolls make sense in terms of them now having more purpose towards combo and score than they have at the moment. The forced 1/4 spacing seems like an attempt to prevent things like 1/8 drum rolls at e.g. 300 bpm or something similar, but I am not sure what this will mean for the mapping aspect and for all of the already existing maps, so I will stay neutral here.
- For the purpose of TWC 2017, having Finishers being forced to be played as a double tap note and otherwise resulting in a miss seems reasonable. But if this were to be implemented live, I can see a new PP algorithm or a complete reiteration of all players' current PP values for osu!taiko being required. I am most concerned about standard converts here.
For a TWC setting, I wouldn't mind these changes at all. However, if this were to go live, I'd like to see PP being adjusted first. Furthermore, as you can see, unranked/loved maps will be a great issue to so many players (including me, I admit), but I can't think of any good way to solve this. It is easy to disable scoring entirely for unranked maps, but I'm not sure what will happen to Loved maps and the Loved state itself. I also don't know how much the new mechanics will influence mapping, but I'm sure they will.
I have already got used to 16:9 a bit more over the past months, but as a 4:3 resolution main I've attempted some comparisons and I came to the conclusion that it seems like the viewfield-width on 16:9 is not being scaled properly to map-SV like HR is (or even HD with its black rectangle on the right) and causes maps with fast SV to become much easier to read compared to 4:3, resulting 4:3 to be more of a handicap than anything.
With this being focused on for TWC 2017, I want to add to that focus by alluding this SV-scaling issue. My fear is that devs/map pickers are not aware of this and will pick maps that are close to impossible to read with 4:3, albeit this point may be subjective and egocentric. However, in TWC 2016 Finals DT map pool, this map was picked and I was certain to bail out from playing this because this was extremely harsh to read on 4:3. The map is fast on 16:9 too, yes, but I noticed I was able to combo it much better, eventually getting a sloppy Full Combo during a session with 16:9.
Concluding, I do want to point out it was not my aim to appear salty by mentioning this, given that with 16:9 most of the PP rewarding standard converts like this map appear easier to play and me still playing 4:3, but it is still an issue which at least has earned the right to be mentioned. I haven't checked 16:9 vs. 4:3 scaling on the other modes, but if they do scale, then it is definitely an issue. I will also say that I'm not hoping for a fix anytime soon, as I can see such a fix having no purpose if 4:3 is perhaps being removed entirely with osu!next, but I am hoping to at least have awoken some attention towards 4:3 players, so maps like YuYu Metal can be avoided for the upcoming TWC.
------
As with scorev2:
You have issued more mechanics that will change with scorev2 than actual "score" elements. So what are the changes to scoring going to be? The only thing I see is implied by OP, where there is going to be a 1,000,000 score cap like in mania and standard (afaik), and it is also stated that normal notes will continue to give a constant value towards that score. But how are you going to make sure the 1,000,000 score cap is reached? The points given must scale somehow to presume that cap, right? How will that be done? Is it just going to be along the lines of "single_note_score = 1,000,000 / (Total Notes - (Other score%s))"? How much is the score affected by Combo like it is at the moment with its original Taiko no Tatsujin scoring increments until 100 Combo? Will there be penalties for missing like in standard? Forgive me if that has been said before, but I do want some clarification here.
Otherwise:
- osu!mania HP drain is harsh but not as harsh as osu!standard, so objectively I'm fine with the HP drain thing coming to osu!taiko, as long as notelocking will be fixed. However, I do agree with some people mentioning already existing maps being in a disadvantageous spot if this were to be implemented. I'd vouch for a HP drain rate value that scales to e.g. OD instead of having HP as a separate value set by the mapper next to OD.
- Spinners and drum rolls make sense in terms of them now having more purpose towards combo and score than they have at the moment. The forced 1/4 spacing seems like an attempt to prevent things like 1/8 drum rolls at e.g. 300 bpm or something similar, but I am not sure what this will mean for the mapping aspect and for all of the already existing maps, so I will stay neutral here.
- For the purpose of TWC 2017, having Finishers being forced to be played as a double tap note and otherwise resulting in a miss seems reasonable. But if this were to be implemented live, I can see a new PP algorithm or a complete reiteration of all players' current PP values for osu!taiko being required. I am most concerned about standard converts here.
For a TWC setting, I wouldn't mind these changes at all. However, if this were to go live, I'd like to see PP being adjusted first. Furthermore, as you can see, unranked/loved maps will be a great issue to so many players (including me, I admit), but I can't think of any good way to solve this. It is easy to disable scoring entirely for unranked maps, but I'm not sure what will happen to Loved maps and the Loved state itself. I also don't know how much the new mechanics will influence mapping, but I'm sure they will.
Something else I just noticed - Did you guys forget about Kiai Time?
It seems like Kiai Time doesn't effect hit scores whatsoever. Shouldn't it still add 20% score bonus?
It seems like Kiai Time doesn't effect hit scores whatsoever. Shouldn't it still add 20% score bonus?
i bet u guys worked real hard on this and were really proud of it and excited to share it
So kiai time will make me blind even on scorev2 *sigh*
On one hand I love how big notes will force players to play the maps as they were intended to, but spinners and drum rolls feel like they shouldn't be so strict, especially that they have little to do with "rhythm" I know, contradicting myself right from the start. Spinners are a bit easier to argue against, as they are great in concept but awful at execution (why would you need to mash more if the OD is higher, when the song is the same?). Drum rolls are basically lenient streams in most of the cases; I feel like their main purpose is filling out streams in easier difficulties. I don't really have enough experience as a mapper to comment on drum roll gimmick maps, so I won't comment on it. I feel that they need a rework (maybe don/kat sliders where you have to hold and release, much like in mania but colour based? Loctav mentioned that they aren't afraid turning taiko away from TnT, so experimenting with changing these elements shouldn't be unthinkable.)
I thought the score would be weighting combo as much as in std, but gladly, this does not seem to be the case. However, score rankings will absolutely lose their meaning in all of the modes with scorev2 with the 1m cap. Why would I try to fc long hard stuff if I could just spam 30 second maps for the same score? As for people arguing that big notes shouldn't break the combo, as 4x score is significant enough of an award - outside of tournaments people won't give a damn about big notes.
I think the worst element of the scorev2 is the HP update. Taiko has the best HP system of all the modes. Obviously notelocking is a huge reason, but I think tons of people prefer taiko's HP system over mania's. It'll force some players to use NF when they just want to play some maps. Also it is very traumatising if you lose a tournament match because you failed at the end, while the enemy team had people failing left and right during the map, but managed to climb back at the end. Looking at the whole performance instead of certain segments makes more sense for HP Unless on maps that have unreasonable difficulty spikes.
Overall I have mixed feelings about this.
On one hand I love how big notes will force players to play the maps as they were intended to, but spinners and drum rolls feel like they shouldn't be so strict, especially that they have little to do with "rhythm" I know, contradicting myself right from the start. Spinners are a bit easier to argue against, as they are great in concept but awful at execution (why would you need to mash more if the OD is higher, when the song is the same?). Drum rolls are basically lenient streams in most of the cases; I feel like their main purpose is filling out streams in easier difficulties. I don't really have enough experience as a mapper to comment on drum roll gimmick maps, so I won't comment on it. I feel that they need a rework (maybe don/kat sliders where you have to hold and release, much like in mania but colour based? Loctav mentioned that they aren't afraid turning taiko away from TnT, so experimenting with changing these elements shouldn't be unthinkable.)
I thought the score would be weighting combo as much as in std, but gladly, this does not seem to be the case. However, score rankings will absolutely lose their meaning in all of the modes with scorev2 with the 1m cap. Why would I try to fc long hard stuff if I could just spam 30 second maps for the same score? As for people arguing that big notes shouldn't break the combo, as 4x score is significant enough of an award - outside of tournaments people won't give a damn about big notes.
I think the worst element of the scorev2 is the HP update. Taiko has the best HP system of all the modes. Obviously notelocking is a huge reason, but I think tons of people prefer taiko's HP system over mania's. It'll force some players to use NF when they just want to play some maps. Also it is very traumatising if you lose a tournament match because you failed at the end, while the enemy team had people failing left and right during the map, but managed to climb back at the end. Looking at the whole performance instead of certain segments makes more sense for HP Unless on maps that have unreasonable difficulty spikes.
Overall I have mixed feelings about this.
So if we are focusing on just ranked maps than here are my following thoughts
Spinners: OK
Sliders: OK
Finishers: I don't like this change but I think others have said everything that needs to be said
HP: The big problem I see with the HP system is notelocking. While yes Loctav mentioned removing notelocking as he didn't see the point of it, there is a very good reason notelocking exists. At low difficulties a player could conceivably hit every single note with all 4 buttons as everything is just 1/1 or 1/2 locked. But due to notelocking you will miss and break combo preventing players from just ignoring needing to read red vs blue.
At higher difficulties sure hitting all 4 buttons is impossible (unless we get some mania players who can just hammerjack for minutes straight which they would become instant amazing at Taiko) but players could instead stream an entire 1/4 section of a map just keeping the rythmn with both hands at the same time. Basically they could if using DDKK just keep their index fingers timed together or the middle fingers timed together. For KDDK would be slightly harder as players would need to hit Index finger on one hand at the same time as middle finger on the other hand just so you had a red & blue note hit for every beat of the stream. Would this be tiring on long streams? You Bet! But players can play index finger only so I can guarantee there are people who could do this.
Spinners: OK
Sliders: OK
Finishers: I don't like this change but I think others have said everything that needs to be said
HP: The big problem I see with the HP system is notelocking. While yes Loctav mentioned removing notelocking as he didn't see the point of it, there is a very good reason notelocking exists. At low difficulties a player could conceivably hit every single note with all 4 buttons as everything is just 1/1 or 1/2 locked. But due to notelocking you will miss and break combo preventing players from just ignoring needing to read red vs blue.
At higher difficulties sure hitting all 4 buttons is impossible (unless we get some mania players who can just hammerjack for minutes straight which they would become instant amazing at Taiko) but players could instead stream an entire 1/4 section of a map just keeping the rythmn with both hands at the same time. Basically they could if using DDKK just keep their index fingers timed together or the middle fingers timed together. For KDDK would be slightly harder as players would need to hit Index finger on one hand at the same time as middle finger on the other hand just so you had a red & blue note hit for every beat of the stream. Would this be tiring on long streams? You Bet! But players can play index finger only so I can guarantee there are people who could do this.
Tons of ranked maps now have HP<5 this is going to make maps incredibly easy to pass
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1110965
Also something I would like to ask is what is going to happen to all the scores that have finishers only pressed with one key? Are the scores going to remain how they are or what? It will show in replays that they missed where on the overall score it'll say they FC'd.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1110965
Loctav wrote:
also who cares about unranked maps?
Also something I would like to ask is what is going to happen to all the scores that have finishers only pressed with one key? Are the scores going to remain how they are or what? It will show in replays that they missed where on the overall score it'll say they FC'd.
Topic Starter
So balancing HP is going to take a little bit of experimentation. Do let us know if it's too lenient. At the moment HP drain is around half of what it was before the recent hotfix.
As of being years of a Taiko player, I believe not only me, but most of us are giving comments on this thread from our hearts. Isn't it really that hard to understand what we have been thinking since this thread came out? We are not finding the point that we might compromise such as tuning the 'miss count' to a 'combobreak' only, or just balancing the new HP system. Isn't our thoughts as hard to understand as they are ... just become negligible?
Just a quick reply on the changes :
- For the combobreak just like a sliderbreak as Std mode, or even count as a miss if players hit a finisher with only a single tap, this is way too punishing for players that they are actually having a lower score gained as the consequence. I don't see we need further punishments on the players (even they really skin the finisher notes becoming normal hit notes) who hit them in single tap, or the people actually could play good but couldn't tap 2 taps together (just styles problem, or yeah, the index fingers player) will be unacceptably topped by the others just because they couldn't get a high enough score from what they actually did their best.
- For the changes on slider and spinner, nah, nothing should be done to these 'bonus things'. For years, sliders and spinners in a map are just about the mapping style, but not as regarded as one major part of the plays and the scores, and which it shouldn't. Not the Taiko no Tatsujin, and not the osu!Taiko. Counting them as a miss in any conditions, as well as the new HP system, is undoubtedly the worst idea I've ever seen.
- For the new HP system, just one sentence. Taiko is not Mania, and shouldn't be considered as how Mania is in any species of talking.
We play game for fun and challenges, not for BEING LESS PUNISHED
Comeon...
Just a quick reply on the changes :
- For the combobreak just like a sliderbreak as Std mode, or even count as a miss if players hit a finisher with only a single tap, this is way too punishing for players that they are actually having a lower score gained as the consequence. I don't see we need further punishments on the players (even they really skin the finisher notes becoming normal hit notes) who hit them in single tap, or the people actually could play good but couldn't tap 2 taps together (just styles problem, or yeah, the index fingers player) will be unacceptably topped by the others just because they couldn't get a high enough score from what they actually did their best.
- For the changes on slider and spinner, nah, nothing should be done to these 'bonus things'. For years, sliders and spinners in a map are just about the mapping style, but not as regarded as one major part of the plays and the scores, and which it shouldn't. Not the Taiko no Tatsujin, and not the osu!Taiko. Counting them as a miss in any conditions, as well as the new HP system, is undoubtedly the worst idea I've ever seen.
- For the new HP system, just one sentence. Taiko is not Mania, and shouldn't be considered as how Mania is in any species of talking.
We play game for fun and challenges, not for BEING LESS PUNISHED
Comeon...
i just keep seeing players' feedback of why they don't like this being dismissed or ignored, with the reasoning of "it won't be the main scoring system for a long time, so get over it". well, what's gonna happen in a year, 2 years, or whenever this is the main scoring system, and people still don't like it? they're gonna have no choice but to switch to it. they won't get to leave any feedback on why it shouldn't be the main scoring system... oh wait, they already have and it's been denied just because "it won't be the main scoring system for a long time, so get over it".
nobody asked for this. the only people supporting/defending it are just saying "i can live with this" or "get used to change", not "i love these new changes and i think they are good". they're accepting it because it's inevitable that this will be forced upon them and they're just dealing with it. but that still doesn't mean the changes were good. why not fix some of the many things that have been broken in this game for years that people actually have been asking for?
if it was just a simple scoring change then it would be easier to deal with, but these are changes to the core mechanics of the game. while i can see the reasoning for some of them, they just aren't necessary, and they change the game and make it farther from what i know and love taiko for. and i know i'm not the only one that feels this way.
please listen to your players.
nobody asked for this. the only people supporting/defending it are just saying "i can live with this" or "get used to change", not "i love these new changes and i think they are good". they're accepting it because it's inevitable that this will be forced upon them and they're just dealing with it. but that still doesn't mean the changes were good. why not fix some of the many things that have been broken in this game for years that people actually have been asking for?
if it was just a simple scoring change then it would be easier to deal with, but these are changes to the core mechanics of the game. while i can see the reasoning for some of them, they just aren't necessary, and they change the game and make it farther from what i know and love taiko for. and i know i'm not the only one that feels this way.
please listen to your players.
Some personal opinions here. I'll start by saying I don't like the whole scoreV2 thing, both because of objective reasons and personal preferences.
HP: I dislike any sort of draining mechanism as the current HP system is what I prefer. I have some experience in playing all 4 gamemodes (although not so good at other 3) and honestly I hate the drain system which can fail a player before the song ends. Not only it's frustrating for players because of a single difficulty spike (hi galaxy collapse), it's also unfair in twc context when an obviously better-performing player gets 0 score just because he could not revive after failing at an intense part (as mentioned by _verto_). This is further aggravated by notelocking issues mentioned several times before. I'd prefer current HP system in which HP value is reasonably adjusted by mappers in a case by case basis, rather than a draining system that literally kills a player if he misses like 8 notes in HP6 (what Onosaki tested in his post), which is not uncommon even for twc level players.
1m score cap: I don't think this is a good idea for twc. If I didn't misunderstand, a lower combo difficulty means more score obtainable per note, and hence more score loss per note if a player gets an inaccurate hit or miss. If so, it creates an odd situation in which high combo count means score loss can be easily remedied by hitting more in sliders (drumrolls) or finishes, but a lot less feasible in low combo difficulties. The original scoring algorithm is fairer because it doesn't favor any side on both cases, so why bother replacing it?
Finish: I oppose the new proposal because of two reasons. One, changing the bonus multiplier from 2 to 4 is way too much. The penalty for not obtaining full finish score (either inaccurate hit or not hitting both sides) is way too harsh, considering 4 inaccurate normal notes equals to 1 inaccurate finish (Unmei explained this further). Two, it doesn't make sense to treat non-double-hit finish as a miss. This is utterly unfair to 2-finger players which I can personally confirm (frukoyurdakul and animexamera said the same thing).
Drumrolls (Sliders): The forced 1/4 drumroll spacing makes no sense, since some songs have 1/3 or 1/6-based rhythm and the mappers already put slider tick rate 3 on them. Also it could be painful to play long drumrolls in high bpm (270? 300?). Besides, considering <30% hit as miss can be problematic because of notelocking. Players often miss all slider ticks if there is a note 1/4 before the drumroll unless they hit earlier/later purposefully (which doesn't fit the song rhythm, see what Onosaki wrote).
Spinners: My biggest concerns would be short spinners which have little time to hit. Forcing a miss for incomplete hits is likely to create significant score difference (in twc context), which I think is over-penalized.
And for the combo-breaking concept (for finishes, drumrolls and spinners), I don't think that's even needed, given players are already given less score if they fail to complete. In competitive environment like twc such score loss is already significant enough to provide them incentives to complete them, and further punishment seems to be overdone.
At least for me, the current scoring system is fine but this new proposal doesn't seem well-thought.
HP: I dislike any sort of draining mechanism as the current HP system is what I prefer. I have some experience in playing all 4 gamemodes (although not so good at other 3) and honestly I hate the drain system which can fail a player before the song ends. Not only it's frustrating for players because of a single difficulty spike (hi galaxy collapse), it's also unfair in twc context when an obviously better-performing player gets 0 score just because he could not revive after failing at an intense part (as mentioned by _verto_). This is further aggravated by notelocking issues mentioned several times before. I'd prefer current HP system in which HP value is reasonably adjusted by mappers in a case by case basis, rather than a draining system that literally kills a player if he misses like 8 notes in HP6 (what Onosaki tested in his post), which is not uncommon even for twc level players.
Even when halved I'll still say it's very high, considering it's not uncommon to have long 1/4 sections, often mixed with 1/6s. Pretty much an instant-kill if one misses such stream placed at the very end of a song.smoogipooo wrote:
At the moment HP drain is around half of what it was before the recent hotfix.
1m score cap: I don't think this is a good idea for twc. If I didn't misunderstand, a lower combo difficulty means more score obtainable per note, and hence more score loss per note if a player gets an inaccurate hit or miss. If so, it creates an odd situation in which high combo count means score loss can be easily remedied by hitting more in sliders (drumrolls) or finishes, but a lot less feasible in low combo difficulties. The original scoring algorithm is fairer because it doesn't favor any side on both cases, so why bother replacing it?
Finish: I oppose the new proposal because of two reasons. One, changing the bonus multiplier from 2 to 4 is way too much. The penalty for not obtaining full finish score (either inaccurate hit or not hitting both sides) is way too harsh, considering 4 inaccurate normal notes equals to 1 inaccurate finish (Unmei explained this further). Two, it doesn't make sense to treat non-double-hit finish as a miss. This is utterly unfair to 2-finger players which I can personally confirm (frukoyurdakul and animexamera said the same thing).
Because they place a finger on each key, which is not always the case in taiko. If you're saying it's 2-finger players' fault, you're basically disregarding all the efforts they paid on this game. Also I don't get why unranked are to be ignored. Some of them did appear in mappool of twc6.Loctav wrote:
I REALLY wonder how mania people do that witchcraft. also who cares about unranked maps?
Drumrolls (Sliders): The forced 1/4 drumroll spacing makes no sense, since some songs have 1/3 or 1/6-based rhythm and the mappers already put slider tick rate 3 on them. Also it could be painful to play long drumrolls in high bpm (270? 300?). Besides, considering <30% hit as miss can be problematic because of notelocking. Players often miss all slider ticks if there is a note 1/4 before the drumroll unless they hit earlier/later purposefully (which doesn't fit the song rhythm, see what Onosaki wrote).
Spinners: My biggest concerns would be short spinners which have little time to hit. Forcing a miss for incomplete hits is likely to create significant score difference (in twc context), which I think is over-penalized.
And for the combo-breaking concept (for finishes, drumrolls and spinners), I don't think that's even needed, given players are already given less score if they fail to complete. In competitive environment like twc such score loss is already significant enough to provide them incentives to complete them, and further punishment seems to be overdone.
At least for me, the current scoring system is fine but this new proposal doesn't seem well-thought.
I am not sure if people here noticed or understood the construct of the 1 000 000 points so far, so keep in mind:
Score is composed of two parts. Accuracy score (80% or 800 000) and combo score (20% or 200 000). Accuracy score is determined by the correctness of your hits and ONLY by that. (Combo has no impact here, hitting all 300 gives you the 800 000). Vica Versa for the Combo portion, this is determined by your combo. (Max combo will give 200 000 points). Combo breaks only impact the 20%. 300/100/Miss only impact the 80%.
Right now, slider ticks are counted into combo score (however, this isn't right)
300/100 hits don't give exactly 300/100 or increased based on combo, they give score based on the amount of total notes and based on whether you hit right (300) or close to right (100). Same goes for combo score. A max combo will give you 200 000 points at the end (and hitting all ticks, which is silly so let's disregard that for the sake of explanation). Any combo breaks will draw from these 200 000, there is some mad magic that balances out maps with massive high combo, so people breaking in the middle of a 4000 combo map and having a max combo of only 1900 ever won't be extremely penalized vs someone who broke way later and got 3200 max combo. There would be a difference, but not as significant as today's scoring would give.
Score is composed of two parts. Accuracy score (80% or 800 000) and combo score (20% or 200 000). Accuracy score is determined by the correctness of your hits and ONLY by that. (Combo has no impact here, hitting all 300 gives you the 800 000). Vica Versa for the Combo portion, this is determined by your combo. (Max combo will give 200 000 points). Combo breaks only impact the 20%. 300/100/Miss only impact the 80%.
Right now, slider ticks are counted into combo score (however, this isn't right)
300/100 hits don't give exactly 300/100 or increased based on combo, they give score based on the amount of total notes and based on whether you hit right (300) or close to right (100). Same goes for combo score. A max combo will give you 200 000 points at the end (and hitting all ticks, which is silly so let's disregard that for the sake of explanation). Any combo breaks will draw from these 200 000, there is some mad magic that balances out maps with massive high combo, so people breaking in the middle of a 4000 combo map and having a max combo of only 1900 ever won't be extremely penalized vs someone who broke way later and got 3200 max combo. There would be a difference, but not as significant as today's scoring would give.
i'm sorry, but do you even know how score v1 works at all in taiko?Loctav wrote:
Any combo breaks will draw from these 200 000, there is some mad magic that balances out maps with massive high combo, so people breaking in the middle of a 4000 combo map and having a max combo of only 1900 ever won't be extremely penalized vs someone who broke way later and got 3200 max combo. There would be a difference, but not as significant as today's scoring would give.
yes, it is a tiering per-hit-gain upon combo increase, capping out eventually. scorev2 combo portion does sort of the same, however does only affect 20% of the actual score, therefore making the impact to the overall resulting score less than current scorev1.
Yes, but it caps out at 100 combo which means that currently you will get the same score if you break combo once no matter at what part of the song unless it's within the first and last 100 notes where you will lose less. What this achieves is predictability and consistency - even across different maps. On regular notes a combo break will net you about 40k score loss, no matter what map or where the combo break was. This system is inherently fair and predictable which can't be said about the new system which lacks the transparency of the current scoring system.Loctav wrote:
yes, it is a tiering per-hit-gain upon combo increase, capping out eventually. scorev2 combo portion does sort of the same, however does only affect 20% of the actual score, therefore making the impact to the overall resulting score less than current scorev1.
I hope you realise that 'eventually' is at 100 combo, so in your example (ignoring spinners/finishers/kiai) neither player would be 'extremely penalized' more so than the other. This is not standard, breaking combo mid-map vs early in the map has very little difference.Loctav wrote:
capping out eventually
Let me post my personal opinion.
Will there be only ScoreV2 one day?
If so,please make slider,spinner and notelock make sense.
To defining highest score will not matter,but please do not let 1,000,000 include any sliders and any spinners.
Objectively speaking,current ScoreV2 does not make sense because of sliders and spinners. I think they should be "Additional Score" in taiko.
Then,let sliders enable score. In detail,to enable to get a score per players tap their keyboard(like original taiko)
I expect this will make sense more than current specification.
As you guys know,HP Drain system with notelocking is kind of annoying. I do not have anything to say especially.
About finishers,let me say "do not let finishers be Combobreak". That's it.
If there will be only ScoreV2,I swear this would become biggest problem of it.
Thanks :3
Will there be only ScoreV2 one day?
If so,please make slider,spinner and notelock make sense.
To defining highest score will not matter,but please do not let 1,000,000 include any sliders and any spinners.
Objectively speaking,current ScoreV2 does not make sense because of sliders and spinners. I think they should be "Additional Score" in taiko.
Then,let sliders enable score. In detail,to enable to get a score per players tap their keyboard
I expect this will make sense more than current specification.
As you guys know,HP Drain system with notelocking is kind of annoying. I do not have anything to say especially.
About finishers,let me say "do not let finishers be Combobreak". That's it.
If there will be only ScoreV2,I swear this would become biggest problem of it.
Thanks :3
To be perfectly honest I feel like this entire new score V2 for Taiko is only a thing because "hey we made a score V2 for the other gamemodes, we should also make one for Taiko!" Taiko is honestly the only gamemode that didn't need a score V2 as the scoring system had a good balance between ACC & combo as combo only built up to 100 for points. With mania it was needed as combo had 0 importance and it was definitely needed in standard as ACC was irrelevant if you could hold a great combo.
Edgar_Figaro wrote:
To be perfectly honest I feel like this entire new score V2 for Taiko is only a thing because "hey we made a score V2 for the other gamemodes, we should also make one for Taiko!" Taiko is honestly the only gamemode that didn't need a score V2 as the scoring system had a good balance between ACC & combo as combo only built up to 100 for points.
After long and careful consideration I think I came up with the perfect solution for the Taiko Score V2 issue:
How about you entirely scrap what you have right now, listen to what the community (you know, those guys who actually play and keep the game alive) wants and reevaluate the whole system?
I don't mind if you change how the score is calculated exactly or if you introduce a score limit, rebalance accuracy vs. combo value in score. But don't touch the actual gameplay of Taiko, that's just asking for disaster to happen.
What's the reason behind Score V2 for Taiko anyways? Noone asked for this or remotely wants it. Did people complain about score calculation in Taiko?
Wouldn't this development time be better invested in the bigger issues Taiko has, issues that the community has actually asked you to fix?
Change doesn't always equal improvement.
How about you entirely scrap what you have right now, listen to what the community (you know, those guys who actually play and keep the game alive) wants and reevaluate the whole system?
I don't mind if you change how the score is calculated exactly or if you introduce a score limit, rebalance accuracy vs. combo value in score. But don't touch the actual gameplay of Taiko, that's just asking for disaster to happen.
What's the reason behind Score V2 for Taiko anyways? Noone asked for this or remotely wants it. Did people complain about score calculation in Taiko?
Wouldn't this development time be better invested in the bigger issues Taiko has, issues that the community has actually asked you to fix?
Change doesn't always equal improvement.
It's just like back in the old 2008 days
I usually don't involve myself in forums like this, but shit, I need to get this out.
Listen, nobody asked for this, everybody in the forums are complaining except for loctav. You guys clearly have no fucking idea what you're doing, listen to *us* for a change.
Normal notes are unchanged. Scoring is 300 for an accurate hit, 100 for an inaccurate hit.This is the only thing I agree with.
Finishers are calculated last and are worth 4x the score. E.g. 300 normal -> 1200 finisher. 350 drum roll -> 1400 finisher.No. Why the hell, would a double press be REQUIRED, to hit the note. Do you have any idea, how difficult so many maps would become, just because of this? The way we have it now is totally okay. If you hit it like a normal note, it's treated like a normal note. Nobody has *ever* complained about this. If you want the bonus points, hit it like a double. Bam. World moves on.
Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this.
Drum roll ticks are worth 350 points.Drum roll ticks should not be counted towards combo, what the hell are you thinking?! They're just supposed to be bonus points, this shouldn't be touched, it's not significant, so many maps don't even *have* drum rolls ffs!!! They have NEVER counted for combo and it should stay that way, some sliders just ninja you and they're so short that like, you don't even get to hit them. Oh but that's right, who cares about unranked maps. It's not like every map starts unranked, right loctav? Who cares about unranked maps, like Doppelganger should have fucking been. HP is just stupid period for this.
Drum roll ticks are forced to 1/4 spacing.
Drum roll ticks are counted towards the "combo" portion of the score, as such they affect how close you get to 1000000 score.
Upon completion of a drum roll, a miss will be given if the player has hit less than 30% of the ticks (unsuccessful), otherwise a 300 hit will be given.
Drum rolls award HP for each tick and for successful completion of the drum roll.
A miss will be given upon unsuccessful completion of a spinner.A miss given for a not completed spinner? Are you kidding me?! WHO DOESN'T COMPLETE SPINNERS?! NOBODY WOULD EVEN NOTICE FFS!! Except when there's ninja spinners but oh right, unranked maps don't matter, only ranked maps amirite. And screw the loved category too why don't we. I can probably get used to the 300 hit eventually. Again HP is just kinda dumb for this.
A 300 hit will be given upon successful completion of a spinner.
Spinners award around half the HP of drum rolls for each hit and for successful completion of the spinner.
Taiko now has HP. HP values are calculated exactly the same as osu!mania.No.
Listen, nobody asked for this, everybody in the forums are complaining except for loctav. You guys clearly have no fucking idea what you're doing, listen to *us* for a change.
not everybody is complaining, always remember that.
What the fuck is that supposed to mean Nwolf, almost every pro player I know is complaining!!!! This isn't even ScoreV2, this is TAIKOV2!! Not everyone is complaining, so if like, three or four people aren't complaining, then it's okay to change it for the whole fucking community? How about fuck no, why not take a poll and see the true statistics about this or something like that.
The only people who aren't complaining are staff members, but sure let's just forget about the people who PLAY the game, right, because the people who have to deal with all the staff's shit don't matter, as long as the staff and devs have it their way, doesn't matter if so much of the community is upset, right?!
The only people who aren't complaining are staff members, but sure let's just forget about the people who PLAY the game, right, because the people who have to deal with all the staff's shit don't matter, as long as the staff and devs have it their way, doesn't matter if so much of the community is upset, right?!
Personally I'm fine with spinners/sliders, since they seem to have some plans for adjusting sliders to play differently than they currently do.
However, finishers and hp drain feel like unnecessary changes.
The way taiko is mapped/played is balanced based on the current hp drain system. Yes, it wouldn't make any difference if you fc a map. But a lot of the time people play maps that are harder/have sections that would cause instant failure if the hp system was changed. Yes, a lot of these maps are unranked. But they still matter. There are obviously far more unranked maps than ranked maps, and I honestly probably play more unranked maps than ranked maps anyways. A lot of songs don't have ranked maps, and there really just aren't that many ranked maps I enjoy playing. It's true you can just play it with nofail since it's unranked anyways, but this would affect people playing unranked maps in multi for fun. Honestly, it's not THAT bad of a change, but it just feels kind of.. unnecesssary.
As for finishers, 4x score seems fine to me as a way to encourage actually hitting them with two fingers. However, I don't think what happens if you hit it with one key should be changed. Even if you just imagine actually playing a taiko, if you hit it with two sticks at the same time yes it will be louder, but one still makes a sound.
EDIT: Mentioning converts, I'm fine with them not being counted as ranked but please leave the convert system to play converted maps, because some songs just don't have a taiko map, whether ranked or unranked, and some converts are fun to play.
No comment on the score system changes because I don't think I know enough to say whether or not it's balanced.
As for its use in competition, which is the goal, I think only the finisher change is a problem because it limits which maps can be selected and also affects the playstyle of the competitors, severely hindering ddkk players.
However, finishers and hp drain feel like unnecessary changes.
The way taiko is mapped/played is balanced based on the current hp drain system. Yes, it wouldn't make any difference if you fc a map. But a lot of the time people play maps that are harder/have sections that would cause instant failure if the hp system was changed. Yes, a lot of these maps are unranked. But they still matter. There are obviously far more unranked maps than ranked maps, and I honestly probably play more unranked maps than ranked maps anyways. A lot of songs don't have ranked maps, and there really just aren't that many ranked maps I enjoy playing. It's true you can just play it with nofail since it's unranked anyways, but this would affect people playing unranked maps in multi for fun. Honestly, it's not THAT bad of a change, but it just feels kind of.. unnecesssary.
As for finishers, 4x score seems fine to me as a way to encourage actually hitting them with two fingers. However, I don't think what happens if you hit it with one key should be changed. Even if you just imagine actually playing a taiko, if you hit it with two sticks at the same time yes it will be louder, but one still makes a sound.
EDIT: Mentioning converts, I'm fine with them not being counted as ranked but please leave the convert system to play converted maps, because some songs just don't have a taiko map, whether ranked or unranked, and some converts are fun to play.
No comment on the score system changes because I don't think I know enough to say whether or not it's balanced.
As for its use in competition, which is the goal, I think only the finisher change is a problem because it limits which maps can be selected and also affects the playstyle of the competitors, severely hindering ddkk players.
Just curious at this point but how many of you have actually sat down and seriously tried these changes? If you're at all familiar with how ScoreV1 works in a tournament environment you'd know it has a fuck ton of issues (misses having WAY more impact than anything else, finishers giving practically nothing to the point that if a map had enough hard finishers that'd force combo break they'd legit just skin them out, HR having an advantage over HD on any map with spinners, winners being insanely predictable barring shitmisses towards end of a map). ScoreV2 fixes a LOT of the issues that'd come up otherwise and if you took the time to actually test it you'd know that.
The only complaint I'm agreeing with anyone on is combo being broken by single hit on finishers, as I do feel the x4 multipler is enough of a score bonus for a proper hit to make not hitting them much more impactful than before.
A quick list of positive things this brings:
- You always know when someone achieved a perfect score for any given mod combination (1m, 1m + 60k for 1.06 mods, 1m + 120k for 1.12 mods)
- Accuracy has a higher weight
- Misses have a lower weight (combo isn't the only thing that matters with scorev2 unlike scorev1)
- Mod differentials in score are gone (due to equal score, which btw isn't achievable without the way they're considering spinners and sliders in scorev2)
- Opportunity for players to actually fail the map
- Values finishers more to make ignoring them / using a small note skin more punishing (Cause seriously small note skins are the cheesiest crap next to people who use custom resolutions to do HDHR)
Neutral / Negative things:
- Health: This is both a positive and a negative, positive was described above, negative(?) thing is because of how people use HP value in taiko, some maps become easier to pass
- Spinners: Gimmick maps get broken. Solution: Remove health loss from missed spinner. How many players seriously don't complete possible finishers anyways? (+ you lose score and would make spinners feel more like a 'bonus')
- Finishers: Finishers breaking combo on single hit is like the only seriously negative thing, this is easy to fix by allowing x4 on double hit but not dropping combo on single hit.
The only complaint I'm agreeing with anyone on is combo being broken by single hit on finishers, as I do feel the x4 multipler is enough of a score bonus for a proper hit to make not hitting them much more impactful than before.
And welcome to the reason legit nothing ever will get done with this community. You're all so opposed to anything new or different that you flip your shit the moment you hear the word "change".BrambleClaw wrote:
almost every pro player I know is complaining!!!! This isn't even ScoreV2, this is TAIKOV2!! Not everyone is complaining, so if like, three or four people aren't complaining, then it's okay to change it for the whole fucking community? How about fuck no, why not take a poll and see the true statistics about this or something like that.
I'm representing my individual opinion, not staffs. Again the community gets upset about practically anything. We can't even remove converts from rank because of people who oppose it and that's something the community is majority in favor of (as far as I'm aware).BrambleClaw wrote:
The only people who aren't complaining are staff members, but sure let's just forget about the people who PLAY the game, right, because the people who have to deal with all the staff's shit don't matter, as long as the staff and devs have it their way, doesn't matter if so much of the community is upset, right?!
A quick list of positive things this brings:
- You always know when someone achieved a perfect score for any given mod combination (1m, 1m + 60k for 1.06 mods, 1m + 120k for 1.12 mods)
- Accuracy has a higher weight
- Misses have a lower weight (combo isn't the only thing that matters with scorev2 unlike scorev1)
- Mod differentials in score are gone (due to equal score, which btw isn't achievable without the way they're considering spinners and sliders in scorev2)
- Opportunity for players to actually fail the map
- Values finishers more to make ignoring them / using a small note skin more punishing (Cause seriously small note skins are the cheesiest crap next to people who use custom resolutions to do HDHR)
Neutral / Negative things:
- Health: This is both a positive and a negative, positive was described above, negative(?) thing is because of how people use HP value in taiko, some maps become easier to pass
- Spinners: Gimmick maps get broken. Solution: Remove health loss from missed spinner. How many players seriously don't complete possible finishers anyways? (+ you lose score and would make spinners feel more like a 'bonus')
- Finishers: Finishers breaking combo on single hit is like the only seriously negative thing, this is easy to fix by allowing x4 on double hit but not dropping combo on single hit.
Okay yeah so maybe I was a bit heated at the time I was typing it, my bad. But I do still personally disagree with a lot of these changes as do a lot of other people. As 5urface said, I'm fine with a score V2, but why on earth are we changing gameplay too, that's not "score". And then what's going to happen to these thousands and millions of old scores? Are we seriously going to recalculate every last one of them? I doubt it, so what's gonna happen with those? It's not the fact that it's change necessarily, because the more I think about the score cap, the more I'm okay with it, that's not a big deal, but..it's so massive, it's almost like taiko itself is getting a complete rework. It's not going to be like the game mode I fell in love with :/ As far as what I said about staff members and stuff, as far as I can tell anyway, staff members in general are the ones who don't oppose this, but I've only known about this for like, a few hours, keep in mind. I dunno, I guess we'll see what happens, but in my personal opinion, this is a bit of a drastic change just for a score v2 that nobody really asked for. (If people really did ask for it though, feel free to correct me.)
So you're going to hate the mode "you fell in love with" because of a new scoring system ? Well that's what I call true love.BrambleClaw wrote:
Okay yeah so maybe I was a bit heated at the time I was typing it, my bad. But I do still personally disagree with a lot of these changes as do a lot of other people. As 5urface said, I'm fine with a score V2, but why on earth are we changing gameplay too, that's not "score". And then what's going to happen to these thousands and millions of old scores? Are we seriously going to recalculate every last one of them? I doubt it, so what's gonna happen with those? It's not the fact that it's change necessarily, because the more I think about the score cap, the more I'm okay with it, that's not a big deal, but..it's so massive, it's almost like taiko itself is getting a complete rework. It's not going to be like the game mode I fell in love with :/ As far as what I said about staff members and stuff, as far as I can tell anyway, staff members in general are the ones who don't oppose this, but I've only known about this for like, a few hours, keep in mind. I dunno, I guess we'll see what happens, but in my personal opinion, this is a bit of a drastic change just for a score v2 that nobody really asked for. (If people really did ask for it though, feel free to correct me.)
I mean do you guys ACTUALLY looked at what this "MASSIVE" "HUGE" "DRASTIC" modification changes on gameplay ? Well, nearly nothing. Nearly everyone hits sliders / spinners / finishers now, so giving them importance will be only a better thing. If you like taiko now, you'll like it on Score v2. If you hate it now, then you'll hate it on score v2 too.
After 2 days of Score V2 gameplay, i think the only things that should be debated are HP / Notelocking / Finishers. Because everything else is nearly the same as before, even better tbh. Well it's late here for me, so maybe I'll detail what I think later. BUT PLEASE if you didn't try score v2 on a large panel of maps, then dont even talk about it, or you're just someone being too emotionnal. Which... I'm pretty sure is the case of a lot of people complaining here.
Yeah I am perfectly fine with them changing finishers to 4x score because that way even a 50% hit is still worth more than a 100% hit regular note. So it'll still incentivise people to hit them over playing it safe. I also think the slider and spinner change are fine barring maps with ninja sliders/spinners. (Although I do worry about the 1/4 timing for songs with extremely high BPM but hopefully 30% requirement shouldn't make it a miss)
The only changes I have a major issue with are the HP change & finishers giving a miss/combobreak
Also the 1000000 point score on maps I will admit I like as it gives an idea how close to perfection you are
The only changes I have a major issue with are the HP change & finishers giving a miss/combobreak
Also the 1000000 point score on maps I will admit I like as it gives an idea how close to perfection you are
Do you have statistics on that?Arrival wrote:
I mean do you guys ACTUALLY looked at what this "MASSIVE" "HUGE" "DRASTIC" modification changes on gameplay ? Well, nearly nothing. Nearly everyone hits sliders / spinners / finishers now, so giving them importance will be only a better thing. If you like taiko now, you'll like it on Score v2. If you hate it now, then you'll hate it on score v2 too.
That's like saying none plays converts and here is n1doking...
The concerns voiced regarding drumroll- and spinnerusage in mapping and how they would play out in the new context can't just be breezed off without thinking.
I for example often like to hit drumrolls with some custom rhythm I deem fitting when I have the impression that spamming all the ticks through doesn't fit the song in that place. And based on how drumrolls used to work maybe this is even what the mapper intended?
The same goes for the selected HP value as well so you should at least take a careful look instead of saying "nah, everything's fine because literally nothing changes". That's definitely wrong because things do change even if they actually end up being fine.
As far as I understood it, the intention of Taiko score v2 is to create a scoring system that is easier to understand for the clueless viewer and as such we get the analogies with 1m score and health to the other modes.
I'm not sure if the current setup is a success because as already mentioned, the mechanic of gaining score is less transparent with the arbitrary cap and the unknown scaling of combo- and accuracyscore which is also impossible to tell apart from each other. I think the possibility of losing score does not really make a scoring system easier to understand either.
I think I can just repeat my already voiced opinion here: The Taiko v1 scoring system is fairly straightforward, easy to understand and does a good job overall. I don't see a value in changing it to some weird values with new calculations just to have the same number as in the other modes when you lose some significant bits on the way that the other scoring systems (specifically std+ctb v1) never offered.
The premise of making all elements contribute to the score meaningfully is good from a viewing perspective though. I don't think the intended mechanics for the elements are suited to make their way into regular Taiko as they are now but for a tournament - why not? There have already been quite some comments on the finisher-mechanic though but it looks like you have an eye on it already. Same for notelock.
Health is just...meh. Taiko is not balanced around it like that. I see how the healthsystem of the other modes is easier to understand for a novice but I really don't think that this small benefit outweighs the balancing of the health and potential player or team deaths. Especially considering that Loctav wants to have the pool being significantly harder than last years...while it may be interesting from a competitive perspective as mentioned by Tasha such stuff is absolutely awful to watch when it ends up happening and most importantly - the team/player that dies on a spike with the new system would have lost the map in 99% of cases anyway! The major difference is that it feels worse and less "gg".
who?Tasha wrote:
We can't even remove converts from rank because of people who oppose it
i mean if you'r gonna force scoreV2 over pple's opinions, why not force that too?? (which is actually something we want LOL)
edit : cheaters give their opinions, only on osu
↓will this be exclusive to tournaments or do you actually have plans to push this new system for the entire mode?
asking before i share my opinions on what the changes should be because i see a lot of people talking about converted maps here when i don't think they're understanding that this will only be for tournaments.
asking before i share my opinions on what the changes should be because i see a lot of people talking about converted maps here when i don't think they're understanding that this will only be for tournaments.