TBH it doesn't bother me much but I do think mania PP values are even more overinflated than they were before. I honestly think that players having 25k PP when the best in other modes don't even come close to 20k is bizarre. Not saying that Jakads isn't better than Cookiezi at standard, dusk at CTB, or Yu_68 at Taiko (not that you could really compare that anyways) but I feel the numbers are just too far out of whack now.

concept is cool
result is not

Cawub wrote:

Honestly I think they should have at least gotten community input on this before even implementing it, or they should have at least put a discussion thread in place like they did with scorev2. By the looks of it the majority of the community isn't very happy with it.

https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/181853

there is one
it's ignored tho (3 years and one or two changes not to the algorithm too)

Seriously, DT system will now encourage players to practice more vibro and level their handspeed.
Do I have to play stepmania too for pp farming now?
DT sometimes ruins the song and discourages players (at least it does for me) to enjoy the song.
This is REALLY SAD

Btw if they want to not give speed players the huge advantage over accuracy players they should have made HR rankable at the same time.

Halogen- wrote:

There's a reason why people are avoiding other maps that are that high in SR: they don't scale well, likely because they're a more true reflection of what their difficulty should actually be with regards to the star rating.

For 7K, players are forced to play every single high-SR map (they can manage) to gain sufficient PP to compete with others. I just noticed that you're mainly a 4K player, so I suspect the things are different like, players can choose from the vast pool of maps with similar SR and they actually play the easiest maps and ignore others - am I right? Then I see it's a serious problem that should be solved ASAP in order to keep the DT system.

Halogen- wrote:

...But the fact of the matter is that measure -is- inaccurate, and until something is done to remedy these inaccuracies, it deserves to be mentioned, over and over again.

Again, no system - either SR or PP, to say in osu terms - can be perfect, but I completely agree that the current mania SR system needs lots of rework. Maybe the osudev should start experimenting right now with factors like stamina, speed, LN combinations, and whatever they need to adjust the SR.

Message to osudev:
Possible alternative ways to determine SR could be community votes (insane BMS chart does that) and statistical approach (a site called "walkure" does that over the maps of insane BMS chart to calculate more realistic difficulties), but the former is too risky for the current osu PP system, and the latter does not seem to fit well on such a small set of data (# of maps, # of players). So I think the best bet is to fine-tune the SR formula, and of course it requires lots of trial and error.

Halogen- wrote:

...Triumph and Regret...

Wow. You're right, I completely forgot that one. And now I remember a few more 4K maps whose main difficulties (and SR) come from that kind of jumptrill tricks. Now I should admit I was wrong, and it would mean that the dev team was also wrong. I had said that "everyone's PP maps" will be eventually cancelled out if everyone plays those maps (I suspect the dev team also has thought like that), but if the "farm-able" amount of PP with less skill is that large, the PP system as a measure of ability would be no longer trusted.

Bubbler wrote:

[...] players can choose from the vast pool of maps with similar SR and they actually play the easiest maps and ignore others - am I right?

The pool of high difficulty charts in 4k is still too small to be able to pick charts you like if you want to be competitive. The 4k are most of the times 4 stars ranked, high level players can't let one pass if they want to be high in the leaderboard.

This is probably the worst change to a game that I have ever seen in my life

So it's pretty great

I switched to mania because I wanted to escape the DT mentality of STD.

Guess I'd better go practice my jacks, why even learn reading LN patterns anymore right? :^)

I'll probably come back to this thread sometime within the weekend to talk about potential band-aid solutions to this - as in, things to make this better without fixing the SR system, though the SR system really needs work in any case. It's still possible to salvage this whole DT mess.

Halogen- wrote:

I'll probably come back to this thread sometime within the weekend to talk about potential band-aid solutions to this - as in, things to make this better without fixing the SR system, though the SR system really needs work in any case. It's still possible to salvage this whole DT mess.

Just out of curiosity do you think adding HR mod would help to balance speed and ACC players? Taiko and Standard both have DT & HR active which helps to give 2 viable ways of playing (one focusing on speed while the other on accuracy) I think the problem with JUST adding DT is Speed players are instantly better than ACC players in terms of the PP system.

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

Halogen- wrote:

I'll probably come back to this thread sometime within the weekend to talk about potential band-aid solutions to this - as in, things to make this better without fixing the SR system, though the SR system really needs work in any case. It's still possible to salvage this whole DT mess.

Just out of curiosity do you think adding HR mod would help to balance speed and ACC players? Taiko and Standard both have DT & HR active which helps to give 2 viable ways of playing (one focusing on speed while the other on accuracy) I think the problem with JUST adding DT is Speed players are instantly better than ACC players in terms of the PP system.

What if I suck at both

‎

Idk I'm having fun and it lead me to pay attention to the game after a 4 month hiatus

By spamming through high SR songs I've finally made it to the top 1000 and couldn't feel less accomplished with myself

DT in mania is different with other osu game mode

its ok

Fool moon ranked when

o2jam gogo

%%%%%

How about we just really also over-inflate accuracy stuff so that if you get close to 1m your PP goes super inflate like shwabang

Hinpoppo wrote:

How about we just really also over-inflate accuracy stuff so that if you get close to 1m your PP goes super inflate like shwabang

I LIKE IT

I understand the ranting and all the complaints here but keep it reasonable. It was interesting to see Halogen and Bubbler but seeing useless meme spam and shitposting is something I just wont allow.

If you want to complain, do it reasonably, express your opinion in a polite way and bring up SOLUTIONS instead of just bitching about how bad this is or isnt.

Now for my personal opinion, I think this is super unbalanced, super unfair and in general it seems like noone really thought about the consecuences of adding this feature. Thats the main issue in my opinion, people was thinking nothing bad could happen and well, here we are.

It is crazy that now there is actually no reason to play nomod anymore, since DT will always give you a better result no matter what. Hopefuly this will be balanced or fixed. If it was on my hands, I would rollback this, fix SR and then think about releasing this again. Working with stuff that is broken since the first time will never lead to good results (just look at osu!next for example, they had to start from scratch given that the game was quite ouch). This should happen to mania, start again from zero. We will see.

As a player, I dont feel like playing anymore since I am more of an accuracy/LN fan (even tho I tried out DT and it felt super boring) and as a BN I dont feel like ranking maps either. Unless until this is balanced.

Sadly we should give it some time until it balances itself, perhaps even change. Bring up solutions to change this and make it better, thats likely the only way to go.


EDIT: Adding HR wont be even close to help this, as DT+HR plays will just be the same. Sure, it will be harder to smash into DT plays but still, it will just make it worse.

juankristal wrote:

As a player, I dont feel like playing anymore since I am more of an accuracy/LN fan (even tho I tried out DT and it felt super boring) and as a BN I dont feel like ranking maps either. Unless until this is balanced.

This makes no sense seeing as you not playing is only a pp/rank perspective and not your ability to enjoy the ranked (somehow) maps or play unranked. How does PP existing affect the charts themselves and your ability to play them?

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

juankristal wrote:

As a player, I dont feel like playing anymore since I am more of an accuracy/LN fan (even tho I tried out DT and it felt super boring) and as a BN I dont feel like ranking maps either. Unless until this is balanced.

This makes no sense seeing as you not playing is only a pp/rank perspective and not your ability to enjoy the ranked (somehow) maps or play unranked. How does PP existing affect the charts themselves and your ability to play them?

I dont want to play anymore because I have to play DT in order to be considered "better", I think the system now leads you into the wrong path. And I dont want to rank any maps either because it would be just ranking the map in a 1.5x version no matter the circustances and I find that pretty demotivating.

There is no reason to just play nomod anymore so yeah, that doesnt help. I used to have fun trying to beat my friends scores on maps but now is just the same in 1.5x speed. That kind of gamestyle is in my eyes just flat out boring.

But that's a wrong assessment - you don't have to play DT to be considered better in actuality, only to have more pp - which isn't necessary to enjoying the game in the first place.

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

But that's a wrong assessment - you don't have to play DT to be considered better in actuality, only to have more pp - which isn't necessary to enjoying the game in the first place.

Yeah, thats "right" but hey, the point of having the leaderboards/rankings is for something, despite the fact that I can be considered better at X skillset even tho the system doesnt tell that to anyone. Whatever, you get me

juankristal wrote:

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

But that's a wrong assessment - you don't have to play DT to be considered better in actuality, only to have more pp - which isn't necessary to enjoying the game in the first place.

Yeah, thats "right" but hey, the point of having the leaderboards/rankings is for something, despite the fact that I can be considered better at X skillset even tho the system doesnt tell that to anyone. Whatever, you get me

But you're allowed nomod/DT scores now on the scoreboards right? The same as it's always been - people can play whatever but you can see thier DT scores now.

juankristal wrote:

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

I dont want to play anymore because I have to play DT in order to be considered "better", I think the system now leads you into the wrong path. And I dont want to rank any maps either because it would be just ranking the map in a 1.5x version no matter the circustances and I find that pretty demotivating.

There is no reason to just play nomod anymore so yeah, that doesnt help. I used to have fun trying to beat my friends scores on maps but now is just the same in 1.5x speed. That kind of gamestyle is in my eyes just flat out boring.

I have to say, prior to this update, what you are saying about DT was pretty much replaced with 7k which I think is even worse from a competitive stand point. I'm sure you don't disagree that the previous system was flawed, though.

That being said, in order to keep players happy, there are going to have to be more high SR to play. Like, a lot. I'm not quite sure you can pump those out without a loss of quality somewhere. You can keep this game as more of an accuracy game, but people will just end up leaving for stepmania or BMS when things get too easy and the pacing on progression halts. It should stay one game or the other, else the debate will never end.

I really have no idea how this can be cleaned up properly, but I don't see any of the outcomes being truly satisfactory for everyone without changing the inherent flaws in the game.


( I wish I could write extensively on this but ugh I was supposed to sleep literally hours ago )

The idea and purpose is good, but the metrics is poor. 2.5k pp for non-FC play is a little too much. It should be more tame :O

I do have a concern about DT in Mania. In other modes you are either forced to play with godly reaction on DT alone, or have your screen clustered with hit-objects on EZ DT. Unlike all other modes, the scroll speed in Mania can be adjusted regardless of the maps to suit the reading abilities of the player. It's akin to warping an AR11 DT map into an AR8 DT map but it gives the same pp regardless. So DT in Mania should not give as much pp other modes, because the players have the choice to play in their comfort zones of reading.

:O

He Ang Erika wrote:

The idea and purpose is good, but the metrics is poor. 2.5k pp for non-FC play is a little too much. It should be more tame :O

I do have a concern about DT in Mania. In other modes you are either forced to play with godly reaction on DT alone, or have your screen clustered with hit-objects on EZ DT. Unlike all other modes, the scroll speed in Mania can be adjusted regardless of the maps to suit the reading abilities of the player. It's akin to warping an AR11 DT map into an AR8 DT map but it gives the same pp regardless. So DT in Mania should not give as much pp other modes, because the players have the choice to play in their comfort zones of reading.

:O

You can't really compare mania to other modes. It's very different in terms of the PP system in where it gives no combo bonus or anything of the sort it relies solely on accuracy. Also I really don't think mania should have an AR. It seems pretty pointless and wouldn't be comfortable for many players. DT is there to speed up the map itself not the scroll speed. And in turn DT does take a lot of skill In mania, no matter how you look at kt there is skill that goes into it you can't just smash your keyboard at 300bpm expecting to pass. Sure at higher difficulties you smash your keyboard at points, but everything else takes a lot of skill. Also EZ only affect CTB and Standard in reading ability at higher density maps. So it's pretty irrelevant to bring up in mania as again it's a different mode completely. A 6 star standard gives different pp than a 6 star in taiko and CTB with DT so your last point doesn't make much sense either. Scroll speed was never the most difficult part of mania and that's why it has no modifier in the PP system

A step in the right direction, but tripped over its own feet and needs to get up. We also saw this bump from a mile away when we asked for this on the Feature Request subforum. Obviously the next step is to fix SR, but I don't that will come soon enough. Imo, the quick fix to this is to just make the score to pp curve steeper for now. While it won't fix underrated/overrated maps, it should fix players getting huge pp with unacceptable acc.

This leads to the following question(s):
Around what score/% would it be reasonable to achieve about 3/4 or of max pp on a map and 9/10 of max pp on a map?

All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.

Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).

So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.

He Ang Erika wrote:

All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.

Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).

So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.

??????

abraker wrote:

A step in the right direction, but tripped over its own feet and needs to get up. We also saw this bump from a mile away when we asked for this on the Feature Request subforum. Obviously the next step is to fix SR, but I don't that will come soon enough. Imo, the quick fix to this is to just make the score to pp curve steeper for now. While it won't fix underrated/overrated maps, it should fix players getting huge pp with unacceptable acc.

This leads to the following question(s):
Around what score/% would it be reasonable to achieve about 3/4 or of max pp on a map and 9/10 of max pp on a map?

Definitely a step in the right direction, though I think reducing the exponential curve of SR is also integral to band-aiding the PP formula for now. I feel that 850K should achieve about 75% of the maximum StrainBase (not directly PP, but it's a very major component of it anyway) and 925K for 90%.

(I'm currently fiddling with some numbers to properly scale StrainBase vs. SR and also StrainBase% and score, it looks fine for now but I probably need some practical tests first too)

He Ang Erika wrote:

All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.

Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).

So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.

Excuse me as I go shoot myself in the face because this is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard

He Ang Erika wrote:

All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.

Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).

So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.

You can just change scroll speed to 1 and profit? I dont think the AR thing makes sense in general, in mania you manipulate the scroll of stuff in nomod so it should give more PP if you use 40 scroll speed with you arguments.

EDIT: Also is not like the density are the same. Mania clearly has a lot more stuff to do in terms of density, it just requires not aiming.

as others have said, changing how scores scale based on the total score or total accuracy is probably the best as a bandaid while we wait for someone or a group of people who are ready to increase the accuracy of the star rating system

He Ang Erika wrote:

All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.

Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).

So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.

try out mania man !

He Ang Erika wrote:

All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.

Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).

So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.

I don't see why you keep comparing mania to other modes...it isn't the same at all. If I were to compare Taiko to CTB then HDFL shouldn't be readable on CTB because in Taiko its impossible to read as all the objects are hidden. And how about combo bomus? Shouldn't CTB stop it's combo bonus at 200 like taiko? See what I mean it's really not relevant at all. These are different modes with different scoring and pp is calculated differently across all modes. Sure to players new to mania it seems like it's broken being able to change scroll speed but when you get to playing it you will notice it changes nothing about how you play. In lots of situations lower scroll makes it impossible to read patterns where higher scroll makes it easier as you just rely on reactions. If changing the scroll speed makes mania so easy then you should have no problem playing it right?

moni wrote:

try out mania man !

jesus christ dude he has a family