Bubbler wrote:

As one of the top-50 players, I have a bit different opinion to many others here.

The star rating is a bit broken, yes. The pp system is a bit broken, I can agree with that.
However, the very first reason we use the pp system is to measure the player's ability - then it makes good sense to give higher pp to DT plays over nomod ones for the same map, considering the actual difficulty of playing (SR goes up by 1.5~2.0, and it's actually usually harder than other nomod maps with similar SR)
And seeing that super players pass literally any mania map with DT (even Ascension to Heaven and TLDNR got DT passes), being seemingly unplayable is not an issue - they just play and take their score and pp, and they deserve the pp because they have the ability to do so.

For those who got discouraged due to the pp inflation, it will take some time to accept it, but IMHO, many players will eventually settle with a few "everyone's DT maps" like the standard players did (I'm not degrading them; they - and I - have their own playing styles and enjoy the game even though many of them cannot do the DT farms) and the ranking will stabilize at the point.

On the mapping side, I'm a newbie in the area but I see the point of Kyoka (and other mappers, not here).
Definitely, mapping in favor of DT is a bad thing (some of it is already done in std). However, just like lots of std mappers just don't bother with pp mapping (including DT-favor mapping), many mania mappers will just map as they did till now. And again, super players will pass non-DT-mapped maps with DT anyway, so DT mapping would not be something to consider as a mapper.
But yes, some modders will still want easier DT maps. Rejecting them is up to the mappers, and I hope they do so.

a.) PP system is not a bit broken, it's horribly broken. This is due in part that the SR system is horribly broken. SR can be horribly very easily manipulated to produce grossly inaccurate values and PP is directly affected by it.

b.) Your "very first reason" to measure a player's ability is flawed in the fact that it cannot accurately measure player ability on a per-player basis, and osu! has clearly indicated that it assumes keymodes to be separate in play (otherwise, there would not be two MWCs in the first place).

c.) It's discouraging because it's encouraging people to mindlessly smash their keyboards on high-SR/low-diff proportioned maps (your traditional PP maps) and is giving them a false reward for doing well on things that are "hard." Maps that are incomprehensibly difficult yet don't yield high-SRs are going to be avoided and that alone showcases the flaw of the star rating system: people can play one map at the star rating and get an extremely good score, and then play another map at the same rating and get a terrible score. What do you think people are going to go and do right now? They're going to play all of the maps that traditionally yield high star-ratings based off of tiny spikes if they can't handle the majority of maps that proportionally increase in difficulty, and those who are extremely skilled are going to go for the maps that have the easiest patterns to spam/cheat because they can maintain accuracy/combo in the first place.

d.) When you go for rank, you're going for showcasing your work to the community. If the community gets the impression that this increase in PP because of the DT mod is alright, they're going to naturally get pissed off when they can't benefit from it. People bitch about things like mini-jacks into well-accented triples/quads already when they're completely fair, because it's "not comfortable".

EDIT: personal note - you can kiss all of the improvements in mapping meta over the past 1.5 years that have helped to diversify the game goodbye, all anyone wants now is to get their fix so they can watch that arbitrary number climb. Nothing else matters right now.

this was coming regardless of how much you want to push it away. evening was right; new players will rise to the top and the older ones will either need to adapt or just accept pp favours specific skillsets. Being able to get great accuracy on easy charts is one thing, but being able to demolish those same charts on 1.5x speed is another

Halogen- wrote:

c.) It's discouraging because it's encouraging people to mindlessly smash their keyboards on high-SR/low-diff proportioned maps (your traditional PP maps) and is giving them a false reward for doing well on things that are "hard." Maps that are incomprehensibly difficult yet don't yield high-SRs are going to be avoided and that alone showcases the flaw of the star rating system: people can play one map at the star rating and get an extremely good score, and then play another map at the same rating and get a terrible score. What do you think people are going to go and do right now? They're going to play all of the maps that traditionally yield high star-ratings based off of tiny spikes if they can't handle the majority of maps that proportionally increase in difficulty, and those who are extremely skilled are going to go for the maps that have the easiest patterns to spam/cheat because they can maintain accuracy/combo in the first place.

This ^, future players will learn the game incorrectly and get a distorted/unbalanced skillset compared to what he should be able to. Accuracy and complex patterns? Nope ---> just jumptrill and pray for the best.

It's kinda funny for a while but I do hope they revrt it and talk to the community about these things instead of just throwing in somthing nobody really wants in the first place.

Star rating is broken, instead of fixing it, why not focus on the broken parts and make it even worse.
PP is a joke now

-Rem- wrote:

this was coming regardless of how much you want to push it away. evening was right; new players will rise to the top and the older ones will either need to adapt or just accept pp favours specific skillsets. Being able to get great accuracy on easy charts is one thing, but being able to demolish those same charts on 1.5x speed is another

"Accept the fact that it's more important to be good at spamming/praying than it is to play the game properly, and completely dismiss the fact that it's a rhythm game that should demand proper timing, and ability."

also see my previous point about the fact that the charts that people will be demolishing are ones that are being abused by the terrible structure of the SR system in the first place

p.s. note that this is also coming from someone who was proclaimed to previously be a part of "team stepmania" and i'm more than capable of making this shit pay dividends to me, i'm not exactly incapable of hauling ass when I need to - the fact of the matter is that this is generally going to be rewarding play in a way that it shouldn't

Halogen- wrote:

a.) PP system is not a bit broken, it's horribly broken. This is due in part that the SR system is horribly broken. SR can be horribly very easily manipulated to produce grossly inaccurate values and PP is directly affected by it.

SR can be easily manipulated, yes, I already see that on a few very easy/hard maps relative to SR. But due to the very reason, I see that the mapping community has the tendency to not produce too easy PP maps, especially for high-SR ranked maps. For example, while Ascension to Heaven is an easy map relative to SR of 7+, it has got very high OD and HP to require enough skill to pass it and get the PP. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

Halogen- wrote:

b.) Your "very first reason" to measure a player's ability is flawed in the fact that it cannot accurately measure player ability on a per-player basis, and osu! has clearly indicated that it assumes keymodes to be separate in play (otherwise, there would not be two MWCs in the first place).

If you have no way to measure a player's ability, then how would you rank all the players? No ranking system is perfect, even relative ones. Having a quantitative measure of a player's ability in some sort (albeit inaccurate) is a strength of this game. (a bit weak argument, but many players play this game aiming for higher rank, right?)

Regarding the keymodes, each keycount has completely different skill sets to master. I know that because I comfortably play 7-8K but completely suck at 4K. But then, I would suggest to make the ranking charts for each keycount, not just saying "the measure is inaccurate".

Halogen- wrote:

c.) It's discouraging because it's encouraging people to mindlessly smash their keyboards on high-SR/low-diff proportioned maps (your traditional PP maps) and is giving them a false reward for doing well on things that are "hard." Maps that are incomprehensibly difficult yet don't yield high-SRs are going to be avoided and that alone showcases the flaw of the star rating system: people can play one map at the star rating and get an extremely good score, and then play another map at the same rating and get a terrible score. What do you think people are going to go and do right now? They're going to play all of the maps that traditionally yield high star-ratings based off of tiny spikes if they can't handle the majority of maps that proportionally increase in difficulty, and those who are extremely skilled are going to go for the maps that have the easiest patterns to spam/cheat because they can maintain accuracy/combo in the first place.

I don't think that any single map out of the currently ranked mania maps is really PP-biased in that manner. For example, I can say Everlasting Message or Achromat or Haelequin(extended) is a "relative" PP map. But most players already know that fact and already have played and got the respective PP. Now the difference in their rankings mostly come from the harder maps of similar SR, including Haryu, TLDNE Extra, sister's noise, or whatever they play.

Also, while those "traditional PP maps" seem to be easier to pass with DT, decent enough skill is actually required to score high enough with DT so that the PP value is substantially higher than the previous nomod PP. Another example, I passed Maniera Collab Another +DT (8.xx stars) with B rank, but only got 2 PP improvement on that specific map. The point is that blind keyboard bashing with DT on (the thing I think you're worried about) simply does not work.
Maybe Everlasting Message could be an exception; but still then, everyone who can handle it with DT will take the PP and cancel out in their relative rankings. That could someday be one of the "everyone's DT map" I said.

The extremely skilled players don't cheat like that; they just play everything they can. That is how the current top-level ecosystem works.

Halogen- wrote:

d.) When you go for rank, you're going for showcasing your work to the community. If the community gets the impression that this increase in PP because of the DT mod is alright, they're going to naturally get pissed off when they can't benefit from it. People bitch about things like mini-jacks into well-accented triples/quads already when they're completely fair, because it's "not comfortable".

I already saw such reactions from many players I met online. Some of them said "I quit mania" or something like that. Yes, the DT thing is a huge change and it needs some time (maybe lots of time) to settle. I just hope they return to mania at some point and get used to the things.

Bubbler wrote:

Halogen- wrote:

a.) PP system is not a bit broken, it's horribly broken. This is due in part that the SR system is horribly broken. SR can be horribly very easily manipulated to produce grossly inaccurate values and PP is directly affected by it.

SR can be easily manipulated, yes, I already see that on a few very easy/hard maps relative to SR. But due to the very reason, I see that the mapping community has the tendency to not produce too easy PP maps, especially for high-SR ranked maps. For example, while Ascension to Heaven is an easy map relative to SR of 7+, it has got very high OD and HP to require enough skill to pass it and get the PP. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

This is the case with any map; of course you need to have the physical ability to do it, but when you do, the difficulty to perform said things is substantially lower than a map whose star rating is produced properly by linear difficulty and not spiking. AtH is considered an easy map to those who can do it because the patterns are extremely friendly, and it therefore scales well to DT. There's a reason why people are avoiding other maps that are that high in SR: they don't scale well, likely because they're a more true reflection of what their difficulty should actually be with regards to the star rating.

Bubbler wrote:

Halogen- wrote:

b.) Your "very first reason" to measure a player's ability is flawed in the fact that it cannot accurately measure player ability on a per-player basis, and osu! has clearly indicated that it assumes keymodes to be separate in play (otherwise, there would not be two MWCs in the first place).

If you have no way to measure a player's ability, then how would you rank all the players? No ranking system is perfect, even relative ones. Having a quantitative measure of a player's ability in some sort (albeit inaccurate) is a strength of this game. (a bit weak argument, but many players play this game aiming for higher rank, right?)

Single word response: "farming." That alone should speak that it's not ranking people properly, because people feel that they can farm extra points out in situations where they might not be worthy of otherwise gaining any points.

Bubbler wrote:

Regarding the keymodes, each keycount has completely different skill sets to master. I know that because I comfortably play 7-8K but completely suck at 4K. But then, I would suggest to make the ranking charts for each keycount, not just saying "the measure is inaccurate".

Separated key rankings helps a ton - it's something that I wanted to pursue doing for a little while before realizing that the API wasn't extensible enough to suit my needs, since the PP seems to be based off of your 100 best scores (even though the bottom values are trivial, they are required for the sake of accuracy). But the fact of the matter is that measure -is- inaccurate, and until something is done to remedy these inaccuracies, it deserves to be mentioned, over and over again. Everyone knows that the SR system has massive issues on mania, and this knowledge alone should have been reason to consider reworking that before adding a multiplier. Think of yourself throwing a piece of tarp over a pile of shit: you can cover the appearance of it, but it's still gonna feel disgusting when you step on it, and it's gonna stink even more because you've spread it over a larger area. SR works the same way, it's horribly inaccurate: adding DT to it doesn't make the SR system worse because it's intended to scale, but it amplifies the issues that exist.

Bubbler wrote:

Halogen- wrote:

c.) It's discouraging because it's encouraging people to mindlessly smash their keyboards on high-SR/low-diff proportioned maps (your traditional PP maps) and is giving them a false reward for doing well on things that are "hard." Maps that are incomprehensibly difficult yet don't yield high-SRs are going to be avoided and that alone showcases the flaw of the star rating system: people can play one map at the star rating and get an extremely good score, and then play another map at the same rating and get a terrible score. What do you think people are going to go and do right now? They're going to play all of the maps that traditionally yield high star-ratings based off of tiny spikes if they can't handle the majority of maps that proportionally increase in difficulty, and those who are extremely skilled are going to go for the maps that have the easiest patterns to spam/cheat because they can maintain accuracy/combo in the first place.

I don't think that any single map out of the currently ranked mania maps is really PP-biased in that manner. For example, I can say Everlasting Message or Achromat or Haelequin(extended) is a "relative" PP map. But most players already know that fact and already have played and got the respective PP. Now the difference in their rankings mostly come from the harder maps of similar SR, including Haryu, TLDNE Extra, sister's noise, or whatever they play.

Also, while those "traditional PP maps" seem to be easier to pass with DT, decent enough skill is actually required to score high enough with DT so that the PP value is substantially higher than the previous nomod PP. Another example, I passed Maniera Collab Another +DT (8.xx stars) with B rank, but only got 2 PP improvement on that specific map. The point is that blind keyboard bashing with DT on (the thing I think you're worried about) simply does not work.
Maybe Everlasting Message could be an exception; but still then, everyone who can handle it with DT will take the PP and cancel out in their relative rankings. That could someday be one of the "everyone's DT map" I said.

The extremely skilled players don't cheat like that; they just play everything they can. That is how the current top-level ecosystem works.

Bolded point: you clearly don't know the 4k PP mines that exist. Triumph and Regret, whose sole difficulty comes from arbitrary bursts that are jumptrillable, can net you over 900 PP on a 98% run. The chart doesn't deserve anywhere near that much PP for the run. Simply getting low-mid 90s on charts will net you a huge amount of the possible performance points. Barely getting an A rank on it nets you over 650 fucking PP, come on now. The increase is way too high, and the dropoff for underperforming is way too low. People can abuse maps that have huge spikes in them to dictate their PP, survive them through spamming, and reap HUGE rewards. This concept of "blind keyboard mashing not working" - you're wrong, and there's no other way to put it. People wouldn't be in arms about this shit if it was actually hard to get the boosts. Guess what: it's not. It's piss easy to increase your PP. If you're remotely capable of intelligently mashing through hard sections, you get the points for it, end of story.

Bubbler wrote:

Halogen- wrote:

d.) When you go for rank, you're going for showcasing your work to the community. If the community gets the impression that this increase in PP because of the DT mod is alright, they're going to naturally get pissed off when they can't benefit from it. People bitch about things like mini-jacks into well-accented triples/quads already when they're completely fair, because it's "not comfortable".

I already saw such reactions from many players I met online. Some of them said "I quit mania" or something like that. Yes, the DT thing is a huge change and it needs some time (maybe lots of time) to settle. I just hope they return to mania at some point and get used to the things.

As a mapper, and a high level player: this shit sucks.

TBH it doesn't bother me much but I do think mania PP values are even more overinflated than they were before. I honestly think that players having 25k PP when the best in other modes don't even come close to 20k is bizarre. Not saying that Jakads isn't better than Cookiezi at standard, dusk at CTB, or Yu_68 at Taiko (not that you could really compare that anyways) but I feel the numbers are just too far out of whack now.

concept is cool
result is not

Cawub wrote:

Honestly I think they should have at least gotten community input on this before even implementing it, or they should have at least put a discussion thread in place like they did with scorev2. By the looks of it the majority of the community isn't very happy with it.

https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/181853

there is one
it's ignored tho (3 years and one or two changes not to the algorithm too)

Seriously, DT system will now encourage players to practice more vibro and level their handspeed.
Do I have to play stepmania too for pp farming now?
DT sometimes ruins the song and discourages players (at least it does for me) to enjoy the song.
This is REALLY SAD

Btw if they want to not give speed players the huge advantage over accuracy players they should have made HR rankable at the same time.

Halogen- wrote:

There's a reason why people are avoiding other maps that are that high in SR: they don't scale well, likely because they're a more true reflection of what their difficulty should actually be with regards to the star rating.

For 7K, players are forced to play every single high-SR map (they can manage) to gain sufficient PP to compete with others. I just noticed that you're mainly a 4K player, so I suspect the things are different like, players can choose from the vast pool of maps with similar SR and they actually play the easiest maps and ignore others - am I right? Then I see it's a serious problem that should be solved ASAP in order to keep the DT system.

Halogen- wrote:

...But the fact of the matter is that measure -is- inaccurate, and until something is done to remedy these inaccuracies, it deserves to be mentioned, over and over again.

Again, no system - either SR or PP, to say in osu terms - can be perfect, but I completely agree that the current mania SR system needs lots of rework. Maybe the osudev should start experimenting right now with factors like stamina, speed, LN combinations, and whatever they need to adjust the SR.

Message to osudev:
Possible alternative ways to determine SR could be community votes (insane BMS chart does that) and statistical approach (a site called "walkure" does that over the maps of insane BMS chart to calculate more realistic difficulties), but the former is too risky for the current osu PP system, and the latter does not seem to fit well on such a small set of data (# of maps, # of players). So I think the best bet is to fine-tune the SR formula, and of course it requires lots of trial and error.

Halogen- wrote:

...Triumph and Regret...

Wow. You're right, I completely forgot that one. And now I remember a few more 4K maps whose main difficulties (and SR) come from that kind of jumptrill tricks. Now I should admit I was wrong, and it would mean that the dev team was also wrong. I had said that "everyone's PP maps" will be eventually cancelled out if everyone plays those maps (I suspect the dev team also has thought like that), but if the "farm-able" amount of PP with less skill is that large, the PP system as a measure of ability would be no longer trusted.

Bubbler wrote:

[...] players can choose from the vast pool of maps with similar SR and they actually play the easiest maps and ignore others - am I right?

The pool of high difficulty charts in 4k is still too small to be able to pick charts you like if you want to be competitive. The 4k are most of the times 4 stars ranked, high level players can't let one pass if they want to be high in the leaderboard.

This is probably the worst change to a game that I have ever seen in my life

So it's pretty great

I switched to mania because I wanted to escape the DT mentality of STD.

Guess I'd better go practice my jacks, why even learn reading LN patterns anymore right? :^)

I'll probably come back to this thread sometime within the weekend to talk about potential band-aid solutions to this - as in, things to make this better without fixing the SR system, though the SR system really needs work in any case. It's still possible to salvage this whole DT mess.

Halogen- wrote:

I'll probably come back to this thread sometime within the weekend to talk about potential band-aid solutions to this - as in, things to make this better without fixing the SR system, though the SR system really needs work in any case. It's still possible to salvage this whole DT mess.

Just out of curiosity do you think adding HR mod would help to balance speed and ACC players? Taiko and Standard both have DT & HR active which helps to give 2 viable ways of playing (one focusing on speed while the other on accuracy) I think the problem with JUST adding DT is Speed players are instantly better than ACC players in terms of the PP system.

Edgar_Figaro wrote:

Halogen- wrote:

I'll probably come back to this thread sometime within the weekend to talk about potential band-aid solutions to this - as in, things to make this better without fixing the SR system, though the SR system really needs work in any case. It's still possible to salvage this whole DT mess.

Just out of curiosity do you think adding HR mod would help to balance speed and ACC players? Taiko and Standard both have DT & HR active which helps to give 2 viable ways of playing (one focusing on speed while the other on accuracy) I think the problem with JUST adding DT is Speed players are instantly better than ACC players in terms of the PP system.

What if I suck at both

‎

Idk I'm having fun and it lead me to pay attention to the game after a 4 month hiatus

By spamming through high SR songs I've finally made it to the top 1000 and couldn't feel less accomplished with myself

DT in mania is different with other osu game mode

its ok

Fool moon ranked when

o2jam gogo

%%%%%

How about we just really also over-inflate accuracy stuff so that if you get close to 1m your PP goes super inflate like shwabang

Hinpoppo wrote:

How about we just really also over-inflate accuracy stuff so that if you get close to 1m your PP goes super inflate like shwabang

I LIKE IT

I understand the ranting and all the complaints here but keep it reasonable. It was interesting to see Halogen and Bubbler but seeing useless meme spam and shitposting is something I just wont allow.

If you want to complain, do it reasonably, express your opinion in a polite way and bring up SOLUTIONS instead of just bitching about how bad this is or isnt.

Now for my personal opinion, I think this is super unbalanced, super unfair and in general it seems like noone really thought about the consecuences of adding this feature. Thats the main issue in my opinion, people was thinking nothing bad could happen and well, here we are.

It is crazy that now there is actually no reason to play nomod anymore, since DT will always give you a better result no matter what. Hopefuly this will be balanced or fixed. If it was on my hands, I would rollback this, fix SR and then think about releasing this again. Working with stuff that is broken since the first time will never lead to good results (just look at osu!next for example, they had to start from scratch given that the game was quite ouch). This should happen to mania, start again from zero. We will see.

As a player, I dont feel like playing anymore since I am more of an accuracy/LN fan (even tho I tried out DT and it felt super boring) and as a BN I dont feel like ranking maps either. Unless until this is balanced.

Sadly we should give it some time until it balances itself, perhaps even change. Bring up solutions to change this and make it better, thats likely the only way to go.


EDIT: Adding HR wont be even close to help this, as DT+HR plays will just be the same. Sure, it will be harder to smash into DT plays but still, it will just make it worse.

juankristal wrote:

As a player, I dont feel like playing anymore since I am more of an accuracy/LN fan (even tho I tried out DT and it felt super boring) and as a BN I dont feel like ranking maps either. Unless until this is balanced.

This makes no sense seeing as you not playing is only a pp/rank perspective and not your ability to enjoy the ranked (somehow) maps or play unranked. How does PP existing affect the charts themselves and your ability to play them?

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

juankristal wrote:

As a player, I dont feel like playing anymore since I am more of an accuracy/LN fan (even tho I tried out DT and it felt super boring) and as a BN I dont feel like ranking maps either. Unless until this is balanced.

This makes no sense seeing as you not playing is only a pp/rank perspective and not your ability to enjoy the ranked (somehow) maps or play unranked. How does PP existing affect the charts themselves and your ability to play them?

I dont want to play anymore because I have to play DT in order to be considered "better", I think the system now leads you into the wrong path. And I dont want to rank any maps either because it would be just ranking the map in a 1.5x version no matter the circustances and I find that pretty demotivating.

There is no reason to just play nomod anymore so yeah, that doesnt help. I used to have fun trying to beat my friends scores on maps but now is just the same in 1.5x speed. That kind of gamestyle is in my eyes just flat out boring.

But that's a wrong assessment - you don't have to play DT to be considered better in actuality, only to have more pp - which isn't necessary to enjoying the game in the first place.

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

But that's a wrong assessment - you don't have to play DT to be considered better in actuality, only to have more pp - which isn't necessary to enjoying the game in the first place.

Yeah, thats "right" but hey, the point of having the leaderboards/rankings is for something, despite the fact that I can be considered better at X skillset even tho the system doesnt tell that to anyone. Whatever, you get me

juankristal wrote:

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

But that's a wrong assessment - you don't have to play DT to be considered better in actuality, only to have more pp - which isn't necessary to enjoying the game in the first place.

Yeah, thats "right" but hey, the point of having the leaderboards/rankings is for something, despite the fact that I can be considered better at X skillset even tho the system doesnt tell that to anyone. Whatever, you get me

But you're allowed nomod/DT scores now on the scoreboards right? The same as it's always been - people can play whatever but you can see thier DT scores now.

juankristal wrote:

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

I dont want to play anymore because I have to play DT in order to be considered "better", I think the system now leads you into the wrong path. And I dont want to rank any maps either because it would be just ranking the map in a 1.5x version no matter the circustances and I find that pretty demotivating.

There is no reason to just play nomod anymore so yeah, that doesnt help. I used to have fun trying to beat my friends scores on maps but now is just the same in 1.5x speed. That kind of gamestyle is in my eyes just flat out boring.

I have to say, prior to this update, what you are saying about DT was pretty much replaced with 7k which I think is even worse from a competitive stand point. I'm sure you don't disagree that the previous system was flawed, though.

That being said, in order to keep players happy, there are going to have to be more high SR to play. Like, a lot. I'm not quite sure you can pump those out without a loss of quality somewhere. You can keep this game as more of an accuracy game, but people will just end up leaving for stepmania or BMS when things get too easy and the pacing on progression halts. It should stay one game or the other, else the debate will never end.

I really have no idea how this can be cleaned up properly, but I don't see any of the outcomes being truly satisfactory for everyone without changing the inherent flaws in the game.


( I wish I could write extensively on this but ugh I was supposed to sleep literally hours ago )

The idea and purpose is good, but the metrics is poor. 2.5k pp for non-FC play is a little too much. It should be more tame :O

I do have a concern about DT in Mania. In other modes you are either forced to play with godly reaction on DT alone, or have your screen clustered with hit-objects on EZ DT. Unlike all other modes, the scroll speed in Mania can be adjusted regardless of the maps to suit the reading abilities of the player. It's akin to warping an AR11 DT map into an AR8 DT map but it gives the same pp regardless. So DT in Mania should not give as much pp other modes, because the players have the choice to play in their comfort zones of reading.

:O

He Ang Erika wrote:

The idea and purpose is good, but the metrics is poor. 2.5k pp for non-FC play is a little too much. It should be more tame :O

I do have a concern about DT in Mania. In other modes you are either forced to play with godly reaction on DT alone, or have your screen clustered with hit-objects on EZ DT. Unlike all other modes, the scroll speed in Mania can be adjusted regardless of the maps to suit the reading abilities of the player. It's akin to warping an AR11 DT map into an AR8 DT map but it gives the same pp regardless. So DT in Mania should not give as much pp other modes, because the players have the choice to play in their comfort zones of reading.

:O

You can't really compare mania to other modes. It's very different in terms of the PP system in where it gives no combo bonus or anything of the sort it relies solely on accuracy. Also I really don't think mania should have an AR. It seems pretty pointless and wouldn't be comfortable for many players. DT is there to speed up the map itself not the scroll speed. And in turn DT does take a lot of skill In mania, no matter how you look at kt there is skill that goes into it you can't just smash your keyboard at 300bpm expecting to pass. Sure at higher difficulties you smash your keyboard at points, but everything else takes a lot of skill. Also EZ only affect CTB and Standard in reading ability at higher density maps. So it's pretty irrelevant to bring up in mania as again it's a different mode completely. A 6 star standard gives different pp than a 6 star in taiko and CTB with DT so your last point doesn't make much sense either. Scroll speed was never the most difficult part of mania and that's why it has no modifier in the PP system

A step in the right direction, but tripped over its own feet and needs to get up. We also saw this bump from a mile away when we asked for this on the Feature Request subforum. Obviously the next step is to fix SR, but I don't that will come soon enough. Imo, the quick fix to this is to just make the score to pp curve steeper for now. While it won't fix underrated/overrated maps, it should fix players getting huge pp with unacceptable acc.

This leads to the following question(s):
Around what score/% would it be reasonable to achieve about 3/4 or of max pp on a map and 9/10 of max pp on a map?

All I'm saying is DT requires incredibly fast reading across all modes except Mania because the scroll speed can be adjusted, therefore it doesn't deserve such a huge boost in pp reward as we are seeing now. Note density is irrelevant because DT increases the note density by the same percentage in every mode, it is not unique to Mania. However the ability to change "AR" to anything you prefer is unique to Mania, and it is undeniably an objective advantage when playing DT. In my opinion DT should only offer full pp-boost when the option "Scroll speed follows song BPM" is enabled.

Basically the main purposes of DoubleTime is to
1. Reduce minimum reaction time,
2. Increase input frequency/agility,
3. Increase accuracy requirements.
Mania lacks point (1) due to flexible adjustment of scroll speed, therefore DT bonus should be nerfed, but not removed because it provides point (2) & (3).

So technically if it gives about 2/3 of what it gives now, it will be more reasonable.