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A word about insufferable elitism within the osu!-community

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Total Posts
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Railey2
512 posts
Joined February 2015
Topic Starter
Railey2
For everyone who is not familiar with the situation..
SPOILER
People were voting on different maps to receive leaderboards, and many felt red like roses (a map) shouldn't get them because it is not as technical and pretty as this other map, graces of heaven, which almost didn't make the cut because gimmicky maps (aka: "boring" maps") were voted for instead. Some people got very angry.

[fieryrage] wrote:

if red like roses gets loved i'm going to be a staunch opponent against this system
in no way shape or form should that ever get loved, it's objectively a terrible map.

it's pretty clear the mass of the community actually doesn't love the map i listed, but instead the people who can barely play it (or can't at all) voting for it.

[Blue Dragon] wrote:

red like roses is the least interesting map to play i've ever seen and it sucks so bad in a subjective and objective level because it flows terrible and it fails to follow the song while copying jumps straight from airman while the map looks like my cat vomited into an ocean of shit also the fact that it flows terrible makes it extremely awkward to play because the notes dont really follow a pleasant way to play the map

really there's absolutely NOTHING good about that map and people like it

the fact that people believe that map is good and "graces of heaven is not that interesting to play" just makes me want to commit suicide because of humankind's stupidity in failing at recognizing one of the only objectively bad maps there ever existed

[Write] wrote:

so basicly if a bunch of people support something it justifys it? aight ISIS Hitler drugs and everything else anyone has EVER supported or agreeded / liked by a massive amount of people is alright. regardless of loved or not its horribly made and there are better maps that could be picked and its only getting picked because hurr durr jumps im 100k i like to play 7* its in bad taste theres nothing more to it. Honestly this community has such horrible taste in maps my god.

Elitism: Elitism is the belief or attitude that some individuals who form an elite—a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality or worth, high intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes—are those whose influence or authority is greater than that of others; whose views on a matter are to be taken more seriously or carry more weight; whose views or actions are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities, or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism )


Fuck that vote, am I right? Graces of Heaven almost didn't make it, this just gets to show how bad this community is. If they had voted Graces of Heaven out, we should just have ranked it anyway instead of ranking this piece of shit map red like roses, nobody likes it anyway.

__________________________________________________________________________


Some people are so full of themselves, they actually believe that graces of heaven deserves the spot over red like roses, even though the community-vote clearly showed which map is more popular. It is not a coincidence that all the players I quoted above, are players that have the technical skill to play graces of heaven. Fieryrage, who is currently #153, even had the audacity to claim that the majority doesn't actually love red of roses, AFTER the vote already showed red like roses to be the clear winner.
Think about this for a moment, because I believe this is critical:

"it's pretty clear the mass of the community actually doesn't love the map i listed, but instead the people who can barely play it (or can't at all) voting for it."

He doesn't seem to be aware that the people who can barely play the map, actually ARE the mass of the community.
This is one of the most open displays of despicable elitism I've seen on this site in a long time.



People voted for red like roses because it has a nice song, and because it is actually playable. Red like roses is a very popular map in lower ranked lobbies, people like the song and the challenge. It's popular where people aren't so good that they don't instantly die on graces of heaven, but can struggle their way through red like roses (while enjoying the struggle!). And for that it deserves to the leaderboard more than graces of heaven.
It's the reason the vote turned out the way it did. Only because you find it boring to play, doesn't mean that thousands of low ranked players feel the same way. The fact that particular high ranked players like to ignore this very simple fact is all the more worrying.



I don't want to make this thread an epic smackdown where I pick apart the elitist entitlement, blatant disdain for the tastes of lower ranked players, and generally disgusting attitude that came with the quotes. I think, knowing the context, the quotes speak for themselves.

You should be fucking ashamed.


That's it.
7ambda
2,560 posts
Joined January 2015
7ambda
I love drama.
Railey2
512 posts
Joined February 2015
Topic Starter
Railey2

F1r3tar wrote:

I love drama.
It's not about drama, it's about taking a stand against the abomination that our community becomes when the quoted behavior spreads too far.
I expect high ranked players to encourage lower ranked players, not to shit on them by aggressively trying to invalidate something the lower ranked players enjoy.

communities that regularly shit on lower ranked players are known to become cesspools of elitist groups that systematically discourage newcomers. These communities tend to eventually die out.

I have a thing for drama too, though. Just not drama for the sake of drama.
DeathHydra
651 posts
Joined November 2015
DeathHydra
People have opinions, and it appears that the number of people that love red like roses is higher than the number of people that love graces of heaven.

I personally haven't played both maps (I played red like roses for like 1 min and then quit because I can't handle the bpm back then), so I can't say which map is better. But I personally prefer to have scoreboard on gimmicky maps because it's just more interesting to see replays of gimmicky maps rather than jump maps, unless the jump map is like 8 star+, which is not the case in here.
_koinuri
451 posts
Joined June 2012
_koinuri
It's not high ranked players disregarding low ranked players. Anyone who spent more than a minute in editor can easily tell which one of the two is objectively better made in terms of everything. People are mad that lower quality maps gets more attention to the point that something they've been waiting for for a long time (unrankable gimmick maps getting a scoreboard) is pushed aside and almost not make it. If the map was both enjoyable to the newer players and was well made, no one would've complained.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd
Why are you making this whole thread to demonise the opinions of some people? Go takes your rants about elitism to that thread.

Any they have a point, bad and casual players just spam votes for the most popular/gimmicky map regardless of its quality. Low rank players spamming the lobby with it does not give it any more merit. The whole voting system is a stupid way to determine which maps are loved anyway.

Railey2 wrote:

communities that regularly shit on lower ranked players are known to become cesspools of elitist groups that systematically discourage newcomers. These communities tend to eventually die out.
An elitist attitude is good because it creates a standard that new players must reach rather than letting the game be dominated the lowest common denominator. You will notice what a cesspool this forum is compared to what it was half a decade ago.
Raiden
osu! Alumni
2,419 posts
Joined January 2013
Raiden
You call it elitism? I like to call it common sense. Not like I'm in favour of any aristocracy or dictatorship, though.

This happens everywhere, not everyone is allowed to vote (not until the age 18 in most countries) and I haven't seen you calling all democratic government elitists because they don't let a 10 year old kid vote.

Same applies here, in my opinion. At age 10 you don't have enough maturity to discern what politics mean and how life works overall (hell not even at 18, but we still vote). See the relation now?
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
There are good reasons why many people were against such a gimmick category: Because there was no good map selection criterium.
I agree though that they should have known what would happen anyway and not complain about it. Just facepalm.

If someone is casting the elitism it is whoever preselected the maps for the vote. The others just complain but that person/group actually did it.
Last edited by Endaris , edited 1 time in total.
AmaiHachimitsu
1,639 posts
Joined May 2011
AmaiHachimitsu
Can't you understand that players mentioned are also the target audience for these maps?

Do you really think that people who get 20% with nofail are equal in assessing maps as players who play them quite comfortably?

Call it eliticisim we don't care, it's the sad truth that WE THE ELITE know more and know better. Now go tell your parents that they are elitists since they always tell you what you should be doing in life only since they are more experienced. It's exactly the same situation here.

I personally don't really care what map goes there now, after some time most of the maps we want now will be included. But I have to say that I understand the people in question and agree with them. It is a map with some potential but is mapped in a boring and ctrl + c ctrl + v way which should disqualify it from being loved.

go eat a dick low ranked plebs
Jukkii
596 posts
Joined October 2015
Jukkii
the thing is, red like roses is a bad map no matter how you look at it. also what raiden and my angel wilchq said.
a person who cant play a certain map is not able to judge that map without a lot of mooding or mapping experience. and alot of 100ks dont have either the ability to play it nor the experience in mapping or modding. they just play it with nofail and think their cool when they hit one jump in a hundred (trust me i was like that too when i was very very low rank and someone put it in a lobby).
elitism in a case like this is very ok, since they actually are in the right and do know better
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
Hey look, another drama topic.

*popcorn*
KupcaH
2,829 posts
Joined January 2016
KupcaH

[Taiga] wrote:

Hey look, another drama topic.

*popcorn*
Flimsy
14 posts
Joined June 2012
Flimsy
Honestly I dunno if elitism is the word I'd use, going by those quotes and My Angel Wilchq's post, I'd think "insufferable autism" is more apt. Hitler, Drugs and voting on government policies are all pretty funny comparisons to a video game where the map winning the vote means nothing to the leaderboards, and so is basically irrelevant.

Anyway the only requirement of the loved category as far as I'm aware is kind of in the name. Loved is by its concept not intended to be the pinnacle of quality, but simply maps that the majority enjoy, I dunno what people expect out of a system like that. Complaining about a category serving its purpose is super questionable.
Last edited by Flimsy , edited 1 time in total.
Rurree
1,291 posts
Joined June 2014
Rurree
I love Wilchq.

Opinion on this: It's called the LOVED category for a reason. Whether it's an objectively bad or good map, it doesn't matter. The majority gets what it wants, and it just so happens that it's Red Like Roses that gets the votes.

Nothing to make a fuss about.
Last edited by Rurree , edited 1 time in total.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
Welp.




Objectively good/bad means nothing as long as the loved category is supposed to be what it is right now. If it did matter, we would just have a ranked category with more laxed rules, aka old approved.
Railey2
512 posts
Joined February 2015
Topic Starter
Railey2

B1rd wrote:

Why are you making this whole thread to demonise the opinions of some people? Go takes your rants about elitism to that thread.

Any they have a point, bad and casual players just spam votes for the most popular/gimmicky map regardless of its quality. Low rank players spamming the lobby with it does not give it any more merit. The whole voting system is a stupid way to determine which maps are loved anyway.

An elitist attitude is good because it creates a standard that new players must reach rather than letting the game be dominated the lowest common denominator. You will notice what a cesspool this forum is compared to what it was half a decade ago.
We have a system in place where quality the quality map is the focal point, it's called the "ranked-system".

Interestingly enough, people were very fond of the idea of putting this map to the loved-category, based on it's general popularity. As I said, the loved-category was made to give leaderboards that were considered "unrankeable, but still loved by the community". Red like roses fits that bill better than Graces of Heaven, because it is equally unrankeable, but more loved. Within this system, merit IS determined by how many people vote for it, not by what a hand full of elitist top-players think.


The thread I took the quotes from was closed. The Blue Dragon quote was from reddit, in a thread that's already off the first 3 pages.

If you think that toxic elitism is beneficial for a community, you're delusional. Maybe you should raise your standard of what a good community looks like beyond the likes of off-topic and tuuba?
Railey2
512 posts
Joined February 2015
Topic Starter
Railey2

My Angel Wilchq wrote:

Can't you understand that players mentioned are also the target audience for these maps?

Do you really think that people who get 20% with nofail are equal in assessing maps as players who play them quite comfortably?

Call it eliticisim we don't care, it's the sad truth that WE THE ELITE know more and know better. Now go tell your parents that they are elitists since they always tell you what you should be doing in life only since they are more experienced. It's exactly the same situation here.

I personally don't really care what map goes there now, after some time most of the maps we want now will be included. But I have to say that I understand the people in question and agree with them.
The community is the target audience. The mentioned players are in the minority, but they act as if they were the majority or as if their opinions should outweigh the majority. If the majority wants the map to be loved, then it should be loved. That is the whole point of the loved-section, giving people maps they want to play without focus on the map's rankability.

My Angel Wilchq wrote:

It is a map with some potential but is mapped in a boring and ctrl + c ctrl + v way which should disqualify it from being loved.

go eat a dick low ranked plebs
There are many people who enjoy the patterns that are "boring" to you. It makes sense that the patterns are boring to you, because you've played the game for such a long time, but they aren't inherently boring for lower ranked players.
You are such an elitist that you can't even be bothered to think about that, you just disregard it all completely without second thought.
Incredible. What you enjoy does not override what other people enjoy. Get a grip. You can't tell low ranked players that they shouldn't enjoy playing a challenging jumpy map. I'm sure that you liked playing maps like that at an earlier stage of your progression as a player too.

The fact that you think about such a large part of the playerbase like this, is absolutely appalling. They matter too.




-Jukke- wrote:

the thing is, red like roses is a bad map no matter how you look at it. also what raiden and my angel wilchq said.
a person who cant play a certain map is not able to judge that map without a lot of mooding or mapping experience. and alot of 100ks dont have either the ability to play it nor the experience in mapping or modding. they just play it with nofail and think their cool when they hit one jump in a hundred (trust me i was like that too when i was very very low rank and someone put it in a lobby).
elitism in a case like this is very ok, since they actually are in the right and do know better
The thing is, red like roses is a map that many people enjoy playing, no matter how you look at it.
A person can tell what they enjoy playing, no matter how experienced they are with the game. A lot of 100k's spend a lot of time in the game, and the loved-featured is tailored to everyone, which renders your points invalid.
Elitism is never ok. Guiding others with superior knowledge is ok, but this is not what is happening here. What we see here, is a minority shitting on what the majority enjoys, because they themselves grew out of enjoying it. Nothing more. It's petty and despicable. The loved-section is not about "quality"-maps. It's about what people like. Your knowledge of what makes a "quality"-map, is completely irrelevant for that section. It would be valid for ranking maps, but that's not what the loved-category is about.



Raiden wrote:

You call it elitism? I like to call it common sense. Not like I'm in favour of any aristocracy or dictatorship, though.

This happens everywhere, not everyone is allowed to vote (not until the age 18 in most countries) and I haven't seen you calling all democratic government elitists because they don't let a 10 year old kid vote.

Same applies here, in my opinion. At age 10 you don't have enough maturity to discern what politics mean and how life works overall (hell not even at 18, but we still vote). See the relation now?
It depends on what you vote on.

A vote that could affect an entire country? Probably good to not let children vote.
A vote on what you like for breakfast? Why should the parents opinion matter more than the opinion of a 16 year old? The vote casted here, is more akin to the breakfast-vote. If the adult thinks their own opinion should override the 16 year olds opinion, then that's just pure egoism and entitlement, because he doesn't want to eat spaghetti.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
It is lame if you only quote people you have counterarguments for and ignore the others.

Having a map loved or not, its target audience is always the community anyway. Adding whatever maps (by mysterious preselectors[tm]) to loved is as good as adding all or as adding none.

Also consider this: The feature request that was considered "fulfilled" with this novelty actually specifically called for a "New beatmap category for good unrankable mapsets".
Let's read that again.
good
Or even in the OP itself. Now I don't know what the OP edited in the last couple days but:

TL;DR: The best unrankable maps could be moved to a special category where they would have scoreboards while giving no pp
→AFTER BEING SELECTED AND PASSING A MODDING PROCCESS←
This'd encourage the creation of quality gimmick maps (as they'd get more attention) and reward players with unique skills.
We read words like "best" and "quality" here.

Assuming that the "Loved" category is supposed to be for the "best quality unrankable" mapsets then I think the question as to why Red Like Roses was even considered for the vote is very valid.

Rabbitjump maps were always popular because they are indeed fun for scrub players. That is why they don't need this category.

I expected better research from you, Railey.
Railey2
512 posts
Joined February 2015
Topic Starter
Railey2
@endaris

The players i quoted at the start acted like only they were the target audience.

They clearly altered some of the ideas from the feature request thread, so I don't know why you are quoting a section from there. This is where you should be quoting from: https://osu.ppy.sh/news/152109048933 The fact that they added "Anti You" right off the bat, should speak for itself, right? It's about popularity, not "best quality unrankeable". To quote the announcement "it's all about the love"

I don't see how the preselector point is relevant to the discussion. This thread is a condemnation of the elitists that flipped their shit because they almost didn't get their way.

When i don't respond, it's usually because i agree with the point/didn't get to it yet/find that the poster is missing the point completely/am too lazy/don't understand the point being made. But not because i ran out of arguments. In this case I simply didn't get to it yet. Please don't jump to conclusions.
winber1
4,520 posts
Joined February 2010
winber1

B1rd wrote:

An elitist attitude is good because it creates a standard that new players must reach rather than letting the game be dominated the lowest common denominator. You will notice what a cesspool this forum is compared to what it was half a decade ago.
Elitist groups are not what makes the standards. Elitist groups are literally what brings communities down.

People who are actually good at something are generally extremely humble about their skill, and it's almost always the "lesser" people that complain and feel as though they are the "elite" group. I feel a classic example is feminism. We all know the bullshit and trigger memes out there with regards to feminism, and tons of them feel entitled and elitist, but there are legitimate feminists out there that understand there position in society. They condemn the elitist attitudes of cancer tumblr feminazis, but believe in certain values that are core to a more properly societal wave of feminism and express them in less autistic ways. You can be non-gendered or identify as some other random non-binary gender and I would not give half a shit, but the moment you start feeling entitled to belittle people just for misgendering you or assuming your identity is when you cross the line. You are a human being, so act courteous and understanding to others who live in the same society as you do.

Sure, it's slightly different in this case, but it's still usually the "elitist" few that complain and make drama over what is right and what is wrong. When it comes down to it, things that are truly just "bad" get gutted out of the system almost immediately primarily by popular belief that it is bad, and we can see that with basically most of the maps made by "new mappers." Obviously, some maps are a little more dubious. Standards are created by the community; they are literally the norms and customs of the community. . Most people are like "this" so this is what usually should happen, etc. That is literally how the mapping ranking and criteria was created. Standards created by the community on what is "proper" technique. Once we delve into the nitty gritty, opinions arise, but no one is completely entitled to say I am 100% right. I mean I had exact same problem with the first Aspire mapping contest, where Bonzi got second. His map triggered the fuck out of me because it was literally unplayable in many regards, and I spoke out about it, but my opinion is not an objective truth. Let's be real here, the world is not decided by a few "elite people" who understand how the world works best. We get shitty rulers or leaders all the time, and when their ideals don't match the community's, he/she just gets gutted The world is just a shifting statistical norm.

In the end quality is still up to the community to decide, whether you like it or not. It's not like red like roses just bypasses the whole ranking and modding process anyway.

People like Graces of Heaven and people like Red like Roses. It may very well be the case that even the community as a whole believes Graces of Heaven is "better" mapped with more technical skill and such, but in the end, the question boils down to did you have fun playing it? And the answer is yes for both for most of the community apparently, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Last edited by winber1 , edited 1 time in total.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
Agreeing on points is vital part of a discussion, so don't skip it.
I do recall the old OP of the feature request being much shorter indeed. Not going to search that up but I guess we can call the second part of my previous post void.
Iirc the old title clearly targetted gimmicky maps though. It had the keyword "gimmicky" in its title at least.

What you're criticising in this thread is the reaction of players on what the mysterious preselector-dude aka Ephemeral+pals made out of that idea.
As I mentioned at the start of my second post:
There is no particular value in loving those maps when there's nothing special about them. If they're neither special nor good then the entire section holds no particular value. It's just a section of maps that randomly happen to have a scoreboard.
I think a lot of the salt being spread roots in the idea of having a category for gimmicky maps being compromised by the preselector and by holding community votes.
Sure, it's what the preselector-dudes make out of it but I think it's short-sighted to call it insufferable elitism if people like BD just wanted that section to highlight and encourage unrankable quality mapping as probably intended with the initial feature request. The idea was just compromised and even though the reaction is certainly not mature I think someone else is to blame - for compromising the idea while ignoring the arguments against it.
winber1
4,520 posts
Joined February 2010
winber1

Endaris wrote:

I think a lot of the salt being spread roots in the idea of having a category for gimmicky maps being compromised by the preselector and by holding community votes.
May very well be the case, but seeing as Loved is still in a beta/alpha testing phase, those details should be figured out decided sooner or later. Whether for gimmicky maps only or just "popular" ones, it is what it is. Certain maps won't make it, certain maps will. Nothing you can do about it. If you really cared, you can promote the map and/or express your thoughts about it, but there's not reason to condemn people for being dumb for not realizing what a "masterpiece" it is.

People just need to open their minds a little more man
chainpullz
2,334 posts
Joined June 2013
chainpullz
The loved maps list sucks. There is a distinct lacking of W1 maps. :? :? :? :? :?
winber1
4,520 posts
Joined February 2010
winber1
tru, i make only the top quality maps for only autistic morons like me
Fxjlk
1,195 posts
Joined July 2014
Fxjlk

My Angel Wilchq wrote:

Can't you understand that players mentioned are also the target audience for these maps?

Do you really think that people who get 20% with nofail are equal in assessing maps as players who play them quite comfortably?
Good point, I agree that higher ranked players are better at assessing higher ranked maps and this should be catered for somehow.

However, the target audience of the loved section is the entire community not just the higher ranked players as railey said. The majority of players are bad and may not get high ranks or anything but im sure there are groups of shitty players that compete with their friends on these maps and they could be subjectively just as important as high ranked players for the health of the game.

The question is do you give higher ranked players more power to boost the competitive side of the game or rank maps that the community likes to boost the fun casual players have? I think there should be a balance between the two, both are important.

My Angel Wilchq wrote:

go eat a dick low ranked plebs
You know you can make a point without being condescending

Railey2 wrote:

You are such an elitist
Even if he is, its best to focus on the arguments rather than a persons character if you want this thread to be actual discussion rather than drama.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny

CXu wrote:

Welp.




Objectively good/bad means nothing as long as the loved category is supposed to be what it is right now. If it did matter, we would just have a ranked category with more laxed rules, aka old approved.
Very underrated post, there are always going to be people that think their opinion leans more to objectiveness than subjectivity.

In a group of equals, there's always going to be at least one person that thinks they're superior. Welcome to humanity.


This thread is all in vain. At the end of the day the only people that would agree are people that are sick of such personalities already, and the elitists that existed in the communities aren't going to have a sudden change in perspective.
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