forum

The reason why tablet is (probably) better than mouse

posted
Total Posts
91
show more
Endaris

B1rd wrote:

Angel uses high dpi so he can somewhat negate the mouse drift and inertia, the main disadvantages of using mouse. Yet most mouse players don't do well with high dpi. He is just an aberration.
1000 dpi on 1152x864 isn't really that high tbh.
Slightly above average I'd say.
If anything helps him negating the disadvantages it's his kinda weird mousegrip that causes him to play not so much from the wrist and therefore not running into problems revolving around constantly switching your mouse-axis.
Fxjlk

KupcaH wrote:

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

The pp of top plays from cookiezi and Rafis both came from higher OD rather than aim
lol
Fite me

B1rd wrote:

You're not gonna get anywhere trying to use logic to convince people of evident truths that they're too stupid to grasp in the first place. It's just wasted effort.
You're not gonna get anywhere trying to use logic to convince people to not use logic. It's just wasted effort
Fxjlk

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

Mouse is basically a fat tablet pen. Make a tablet pen too fat, shape it into something that looks like a mouse and it already has the advantages/disadvantages of a mouse

But since this game is MOSTLY about control and not just mere speed (which is the advantage of a mouse), the one with lesser total surface area, weight, volume is always objectively superior (at least for this game) It's somewhat like the chopsticks; they shaped it to be not too thick (for more control over food regardless of size you want to pick up), not too thin (so the chopsticks have the bulk to support the food you picked up) and has long (or varied) reach for ease of eating. It's also like juggling balls; the optimal size and weight for a ball is to ideally make a single hand capable of immediately grabbing it and not some bloated one like basketball's and soccer's since it's too large and heavy. Not like it's impossible to do it but it's harder than juggling with something smaller.
Its the other way around the weight of a mouse gives stability and the size gives more area to grasp which allows for more control. Combine this with a higher surface area in contact with the surface of your desk compared to a tablet pen and you get a peripheral that has roughly the same amount of control as a tablet.
Kunino Sagiri

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Its the other way around the weight of a mouse gives stability and the size gives more area to grasp which allows for more control
So if I give you a chopsticks of 1km circumference, you'd be able to have more control over your food? Obviously not.
So if I give you a pentelpen and ask you to write your name of approximate 12mm standard font size, you'd be able to provide a satisfactory, hassle free result? Obviously not. Pentel pens are structured to discard control of where its ink will go with its increased ballpoint size compared to regular pens (ballpens, fountain pens etc.). Its purpose is just to mark which benefits more in size than precision that's why it's called a marker

I'll give you another clearer example just in case these already clear examples still isn't enough for you to stop with this false statement.

Write your name with a tablet pen in MSPaint.
Write your name with a mouse in MSPaint.

Just ignore the matter of speed for now, which among these two peripherals offered more control and ease? Which has better legibility?
G3T

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

Write your name with a tablet pen in MSPaint.
Write your name with a mouse in MSPaint.

Just ignore the matter of speed for now, which among these two peripherals offered more control and ease? Which has better legibility?
That's an interesting test. Tablet was harder because there's very little friction between my tablet and the pen nib. There's less consistency between the mouse drawn glyphs but I've spent years writing with a pen.
Fxjlk

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Its the other way around the weight of a mouse gives stability and the size gives more area to grasp which allows for more control
So if I give you a chopsticks of 1km circumference, you'd be able to have more control over your food? Obviously not.
So if I give you a pentelpen and ask you to write your name of approximate 12mm standard font size, you'd be able to provide a satisfactory, hassle free result? Obviously not. Pentel pens are structured to discard control of where its ink will go with its increased ballpoint size compared to regular pens (ballpens, fountain pens etc.). Its purpose is just to mark which benefits more in size than precision that's why it's called a marker

I'll give you another clearer example just in case these already clear examples still isn't enough for you to stop with this false statement.

Write your name with a tablet pen in MSPaint.
Write your name with a mouse in MSPaint.

Just ignore the matter of speed for now, which among these two peripherals offered more control and ease? Which has better legibility?
Chopsticks with a circumference of 1km doesn't give more control because of the limiting factor which is the size of the human hand. A mouse is a better size than a pen for the hand.

With the pentel pen example it is a different situation where its comparing apple to oranges because motion is not scaled. If a pentel pen shaped object is used as a pointing device it would be perfectly fine for producing a 12mm font sized name if a converter was used that scaled down the produced name.

And for the final point the reason why its easier to write names with a pen rather than a mouse is not because pen has better control its because people have had way more practice using a pen to write letters. Its like asking a person to play a first person shooter with a tablet.
Kunino Sagiri

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

...
I don't think you get my point. These examples were only used to strengthen my first post where total size, volume, weight objectively influence control and the general usage of the said object. We're supposed to completely ignore the skill or mastery of the peripheral by the user but rather the objective advantage of a peripheral with lesser total physical structure (tablet pen) in terms of control to something with more (mouse) at least for this game.

It doesn't matter if it fits your hand, it has a good shape, you prefer it or whatever simply because they're irrelevant. Use a ruler, compute for their respective total surface area, volume but I think you don't even need to use those tedious measurements to see which has more/less total.
G3T

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

the objective advantage of a peripheral with lesser total physical structure (tablet pen) in terms of control to something with more (mouse) at least for this game.

It doesn't matter if it fits your hand, it has a good shape, you prefer it or whatever simply because they're irrelevant.
Control as a metric does not exist without the context of anatomy and physiology. More precisely the control that a pointing device grants an individual is a function of both the physical properties of the device and the anatomical and physiological properties of the individual.

While I believe your argument that the physical properties of a tablet leads to greater control is true for the majority of human beings, I also think that the difference between mouse and tablet is minor enough that a smaller portion of people would have greater control with a mouse due to some anatomical or physiological oddity.

Thus it would be more reasonable to say that tablet is more likely to give a greater level of control.
Fxjlk

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

...
I don't think you get my point. These examples were only used to strengthen my first post where total size, volume, weight objectively influence control and the general usage of the said object. We're supposed to completely ignore the skill or mastery of the peripheral by the user but rather the objective advantage of a peripheral with lesser total physical structure (tablet pen) in terms of control to something with more (mouse) at least for this game.

It doesn't matter if it fits your hand, it has a good shape, you prefer it or whatever simply because they're irrelevant. Use a ruler, compute for their respective total surface area, volume but I think you don't even need to use those tedious measurements to see which has more/less total.
Your point was that a tablet pen is superior because it gives a higher amount of control. The reasons you gave were that a lower weight and size is better for control which is partially true as less force is needed to move the pen. I disagreed since a higher surface area of the hand in contact with the peripheral gives more power to move that weight and a higher weight adds stability so less force is needed to grasp the peripheral to keep it on its path. One example you gave was writing which isn't a good example of equal mastery so its invalid and the other two examples are to do with the size of the object. Larger objects allow for larger movements but my point was if these movements are scaled then the control is similar.

I think that whatever negatives that the mouse has in terms of control is made up for in positives which make the pen and mouse roughly equal. They have their advantages for different types of movements but for osu their control is generally the same in terms of overall performance.
Fxjlk

G3T wrote:

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

the objective advantage of a peripheral with lesser total physical structure (tablet pen) in terms of control to something with more (mouse) at least for this game.

It doesn't matter if it fits your hand, it has a good shape, you prefer it or whatever simply because they're irrelevant.
Control as a metric does not exist without the context of anatomy and physiology. More precisely the control that a pointing device grants an individual is a function of both the physical properties of the device and the anatomical and physiological properties of the individual.

While I believe your argument that the physical properties of a tablet leads to greater control is true for the majority of human beings, I also think that the difference between mouse and tablet is minor enough that a smaller portion of people would have greater control with a mouse due to some anatomical or physiological oddity.

Thus it would be more reasonable to say that tablet is more likely to give a greater level of control.
That's a good point and is a good reason why people should pick based on preference. (though I still disagree that mouse has generally less control)

A possible reason for being anatomically suited to mouse is big hands, though I think mine are average.
G3T

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

A possible reason for being anatomically suited to mouse is big hands, though I think mine are average.
That might be a factor. I have quite large hands and I swapped from tablet to mouse because I had trouble gripping the pen. However I also have a limited range of movement in my aim hand's thumb due to an injury I sustained a few years ago and that was likely a contributing factor.

The largest difference I've noticed about mouse vs tablet other than having to deal with mouse drift is the difference in input lag. The lower input lag on mouse means that while I have to concentrate more on the position of my cursor to account for drift I can concentrate far less on synchronising my taps with my aim as it comes more naturally.

I've tried switching back to tablet a few times and that difference in input lag is a greater annoyance to me than having to deal with mouse drift.
Kunino Sagiri

G3T wrote:

I've tried switching back to tablet a few times and that difference in input lag is a greater annoyance to me than having to deal with mouse drift.
How much is the average input lag for tablets? I always thought that the input lag is no more than 2 or 3 ms greater than mouse at worst.
G3T

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

How much is the average input lag for tablets? I always thought that the input lag is no more than 2 or 3 ms greater than mouse at worst.
It's hard to find good specs. The signal timing diagrams in Wacom's original patent from the mid 90's allows for a minimum input lag of 15 ms, excluding USB transfer times. The three factors in tablet input lag are the coil sampling frequency, the number of coils, and the DSP time.

As technology has become significantly better over the last two decades you'd expect a significant improvement in the above factors. I think, though I have no actual confirmation, that most of these improvements have been put into a larger resolution, more pressure sensitivity, and pen positioning data.

Using this analysis and my own experience of the difference between a good mouse and tablet I'd estimate that most Wacom tablets probably do about 5-10 ms of sampling/DSP and then there's about 6 ms of USB transfer time as they poll at 200 Hz. And then everything but the w5 driver for the 480 take multiple samples to smooth your input, further adding (5 ms * number of samples) to the input lag.

A good mouse at polling at 1000 Hz is going to have about 2 ms input lag to the PC to the eyes you have to take into account frametime, monitor DSP, monitor response time, and monitor refresh rate which is almost entirely usb transfer time as good optical sensors sample at about 6 kHz.
blahpy
I've played with tablet for a year now after switching from mouse and I haven't improved in any way but reading (which isn't due to the tablet, obviously). There are some things I've been able to do with one and not the other (both ways).

It's just a preference for the most part and there are a few maps that are more tailored for one or the other
Tamako Lumisade
I used to play with a tablet for about 3 years, then I switched to a mouse and I'll probably stay on this one. It gives me much more control over the position of my cursor, my aim doesn't "shake", which is a common trouble for many tablet users and I feel much more confident on this one. Yes, a tablet has some crucial advantages, but mouse has its own as well.
E m i

shit
LoliPantsu
7ambda
I Give Up
Sayorie

LoliPantsu wrote:

i feel u
Luqanted
Drezi
Only read the OP.

I agree with your points, but I think you're misrepping the "it's preference" argument a bit. Obviously they can't be completely equal, but they can be close enough that your choice makes no significant impact on your overall performance in the long run. And that's a much harder argument to refute, it depends on what you consider "significant".
-JaZe-
Another post where you write obvious stuff and then back it up with evidence so bad that it almost negates your point?

Nice.
Garr
A better keyboard (mechanic in most cases) makes a more objectively visible difference to overall performance, having less pressure on your left side of the body allows to have an easier time aiming with any device, I played mouse and tablet for 2 and 3 years respectively and found the biggest difference to be the keyboard although I still like the tablet more, you can negate mouse drift by controlling the mouse in such a way with your chest muscles and navel muscles to make the mouse hover just on the comfortable limit of losing contact with the surface.On another note spining anti clockwise is better aiming wise for my brain than clockwise dunno why, also most people seem to forget that the chest/shoulder muscles also influence the stability/fluidity/control of aim,I think they should try to feel these a bit more.
Flimsy
I figured this was common sense, surely no one legitimately believes they're equal.
Fxjlk

Trapalicious wrote:

I figured this was common sense, surely no one legitimately believes they're equal.
I don't know the supposed best player in the world cookiezi says "its just preference" in other words he says they are equal.
winber1
everything in the world is inherently different, because they are literally different things. object A is not object B even if they are both cellphones, or whatever. there are things that tablet inherently has a slight advantage over mouse and likewise mouse over tablet given a certain person's skillset, albeit extremely hard to pinpoint exactly. that being said, everyone is also different and inherently has a different skillset, which can match tablet or mouse better. in a sense, it's just "preference" because it depends on which peripheral a person is more inclined to use given their skillsets. however, to say that something is better generally implies that it is better for the majority of people. something would not be "better" if it were disadvantageous to most people. therefore, because it is basically fact that most people see greater improvement with tablet, the general consensus would be that tablet is "better" than mouse, since the majority of people see an advantageous benefit from tablet. To say "you should probably switch to tablet to improve faster" is not misleading, but rather a general guideline; however, it should be taken with a grain of salt because you may be part of the minority. the world is just made up of statistics.

now begone
Flimsy

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Trapalicious wrote:

I figured this was common sense, surely no one legitimately believes they're equal.
I don't know the supposed best player in the world cookiezi says "its just preference" in other words he says they are equal.
Well that would make sense to deflect the fact a player using more difficult way to play has overtaken your rank. There's like what, 9 mouse players in the top 100? One player being immensely good at both the game and mouse control doesn't suddenly negate the fact the other 91 players use a tablet and turn it into preference. He's an exception to the rule.

I use a tablet for drawing so I'm partially already just used to using a tablet in general, but Osu is most definitely easier with speed and aim with longer jumps, and jumping in general. Tablets exist for a reason, and that reason is because they offer more precision while working with a static interface like drawing, or like Osu. Using a tablet lets you dance around because they add practically no weight to your hand and there's 0 drag since nothing is touching.

Preference only goes so far, there are objectively better ways to play things. You're not gonna find many top CSGO players which work with high sensitivity/DPI, because it's just an less accurate way to play. Tablet VS Mouse isn't gonna mean anything at my rank (realistically I only started playing Standard a little over a month ago), but I'd think it's fair to say a rank 1,000 mouse player is better than a rank 1,000 tablet player.

For the record, the reason I use my mouse instead of my tablet for Osu is just because I want to, and it's easier to not dick around with space issues each time.
Fxjlk

Trapalicious wrote:

Well that would make sense to deflect the fact a player using more difficult way to play has overtaken your rank.
Lol, he never overtook me, hes been a god since the dawn of time. Also I'm not sure why you would make this about me, lets focus the points of the argument rather than attacking each others character.

Trapalicious wrote:

91 players use a tablet
More people use tablet because it used to be perceived as the superior device. However just because the majority perceive the device as better doesn't mean it actually is. I mean the second best player right now is a mouse player even though only 9% of players in the top 100 use mouse.

Trapalicious wrote:

they offer more precision while working with a static interface
Just because tablet is limited to a static interface doesn't mean it is the best choice for that interface. Could you explain in more depth why they are more precise?

Trapalicious wrote:

Using a tablet lets you dance around because they add practically no weight to your hand and there's 0 drag since nothing is touching
Low weight and drag is both good and bad when it comes to ability to aim. For this very reason some tablet players drag the pen on the tablet to add stability. The same goes for weight, it increases the force needed to start moving but adds stability as you are moving. There are many arguments for both peripherals and after considering as many as I could I came to the conclusion they are very close to equal

Trapalicious wrote:

Preference only goes so far
This is true and the example you give is true however there is no specific dpi number that is optimal there is a range and the number you choose is preference. Also if you look at what types of mice these players use they could be big or small. The DPI and shape of a mouse is preference just as what peripheral you use in osu is preference.
Flimsy
I don't really wanna write too much because these kinds of things go on eternally.

I'm just using "you" in the general way, referring to Cookiezi. It's natural he'd claim it's 100% preference to downplay the fact a mouse player overtook his rank. Angel being #1-2 doesn't really mean much besides that he's just that good, he doesn't change the 'rule'. The rule being reaching that level of skill with a mouse is much harder or time consuming. Like assuming this does an okay job at listing the top mouse users, there's around 50ish give or take in the top 1000, and then the numbers drop off hard.

Tablets offer 1:1 positioning, they're just inherently more accurate for static interfaces because of this. I keep saying static because someone would go "then whys there no tablet Quake players if theyre so good??? xd". You're not gonna find an artist which seriously draws with a mouse without just sketching first then going over with pen-tool for line art, because it's horrible trying to do smooth lines with a mouse.

Yeah mice vary, but only because people have different hands. I use palm-grip with a small mouse because I have small hands. Dpi/shape/xyz doesn't change the flaws/advantages of a mouse. Top mouse players switch to tablet, but do top tablet players ever switch to mouse permanently?
Fxjlk

Trapalicious wrote:

I don't really wanna write too much because these kinds of things go on eternally.

I'm just using "you" in the general way, referring to Cookiezi. It's natural he'd claim it's 100% preference to downplay the fact a mouse player overtook his rank. Angel being #1-2 doesn't really mean much besides that he's just that good, he doesn't change the 'rule'. The rule being reaching that level of skill with a mouse is much harder or time consuming. Like assuming this does an okay job at listing the top mouse users, there's around 50ish give or take in the top 1000, and then the numbers drop off hard.
The numbers drop off hard? I don't think there is any proof of that, that spreadsheet doesn't list every mouse user so you cant really use it to analyse the population of players. Even so I found its the opposite of what you said using that spreadsheet.

147/5146 = 2.9% of users use mouse in the top 5146

50/1058 = 4.7% of users use mouse in the top 1058

10/93 = 10.7% of users use mouse in the top 93

The number of mouse players increase rather than drop off as you consider a higher skill level group of players

Also i believe cookiezi said that "its just preference" because people kept annoying him about angel becoming #1 and he couldn't just say "can just shut up"

Trapalicious wrote:

Tablets offer 1:1 positioning, they're just inherently more accurate for static interfaces because of this. I keep saying static because someone would go "then whys there no tablet Quake players if theyre so good??? xd". You're not gonna find an artist which seriously draws with a mouse without just sketching first then going over with pen-tool for line art, because it's horrible trying to do smooth lines with a mouse.
1:1 position is an advantage, but tablets also have a higher latency (as discussed before) and are not really designed with swift movements in mind which puts them at about the same level of potential as mouse.

Secondly the reason why tablet is completely superior for artists is because their pen control is 99% of the time far better since most of them have been drawing a lot on paper before they draw digital. Secondly many artists need to be able to draw on computer and on paper so using a single type of peripheral is way more convenient. Since artists and Osu players have completely different situations I don't its fair to imply tablet is superior to mouse using this example.

Again could you explain more in depth why tablet is more precise? Just cause they are made for static interfaces isn't proof in itself.

Trapalicious wrote:

Yeah mice vary, but only because people have different hands. I use palm-grip with a small mouse because I have small hands. Dpi/shape/xyz doesn't change the flaws/advantages of a mouse. Top mouse players switch to tablet, but do top tablet players ever switch to mouse permanently?
When I said there is a range of dpi that are acceptable and compared that to tablet vs mouse my point was that mouse falls in the range of acceptable peripherals. When you are in a range of acceptable dpi you can go up or down within that range and your hand can adjust its movements without noticeably losing much of its potential accuracy. Same goes for mouse vs tablet, there is a certain range of drag/weight that is optimal. This range also differs from player to player which adds even more to the "its just preference" argument.

The number of players not saying they switched to mouse is best explained by this post from reddit

"I personally believe this is a motivation issue for a big part.
At some point all players hit a skill ceiling, and obviously they'd like to get past it. So, people start looking for ways to improve other than to "play more".
One of these attempts is switching to a tablet. When they do switch, regardless of whether or not they play better, they will keep playing with a tablet because they won't want to admit wasting money.
It also makes the game fun again, since it's a new challenge and something to learn, but not as frustrating as starting from scratch.
Forward a few weeks and they start improving, because they started playing more. This again makes them play more, because improving is fun.
Most top players will have gone through such an episode. That's why most top players play with a tablet."
Fxjlk

winber1 wrote:

everything in the world is inherently different, because they are literally different things. object A is not object B even if they are both cellphones, or whatever. there are things that tablet inherently has a slight advantage over mouse and likewise mouse over tablet given a certain person's skillset, albeit extremely hard to pinpoint exactly. that being said, everyone is also different and inherently has a different skillset, which can match tablet or mouse better. in a sense, it's just "preference" because it depends on which peripheral a person is more inclined to use given their skillsets.
I agree with this

winber1 wrote:

however, to say that something is better generally implies that it is better for the majority of people. something would not be "better" if it were disadvantageous to most people. therefore, because it is basically fact that most people see greater improvement with tablet, the general consensus would be that tablet is "better" than mouse, since the majority of people see an advantageous benefit from tablet. To say "you should probably switch to tablet to improve faster" is not misleading, but rather a general guideline; however, it should be taken with a grain of salt because you may be part of the minority. the world is just made up of statistics.
I disagree that tablet is better as a peripheral in general, just cause a majority found it better doesn't make it better. Most people thought primitive forms of medicine worked in the past but that was largely due to the placebo effect.

When people switched and saw improvement is it because tablet is better? Or is it because they played more or took the game more seriously? Or is it because of the placebo effect? Its impossible to tell and anecdotal evidence is very flawed for many reasons (which i can list if you like but that's besides the point).

Looking at the very best players is the only real evidence but is a limited sample size so no certain conclusion can be drawn but if there is one mouse player that is better than every other player excluding one in a community that is largely tablet players then its fair to say with some certainty that they are close in terms of general potential.

The other evidence is most other PC games are played with a mouse and people have no problems aiming at a very high level. Tablet would probably work well for some of them but since most people use mouse most new players also use mouse but that doesn't mean its superior in terms of potential.

winber1 wrote:

now begone
Its my hot body, I do what i want

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZLVi4v7lSM
N0thingSpecial
Why is this still going, absolute positioning and just our flexibility in using a pen on a day to day basis give tablets an edge, but the actual performance depends on the player which is why there are some mouse players with high rank.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

The other evidence is most other PC games are played with a mouse and people have no problems aiming at a very high level.
I think you're smart and knowledgeable enough to figure mouse works better in other game cause relative positioning works well in 3D environment which suits FPS, as for MMO RTS ARPGs...... you don't really need the precision that the tablet brings to the table, and it's more about comfort and features like extra buttons

But who fukin cares just click the fukin circles to the God damn fukin beat
vitail
I am a mouse player and only some movements are a little more hard with mouse than the tablet, as example you can play Tengaku with mouse and later with tablet
Fxjlk

N0thingSpecial wrote:

Why is this still going, absolute positioning and just our flexibility in using a pen on a day to day basis give tablets an edge, but the actual performance depends on the player which is why there are some mouse players with high rank.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

The other evidence is most other PC games are played with a mouse and people have no problems aiming at a very high level.
I think you're smart and knowledgeable enough to figure mouse works better in other game cause relative positioning works well in 3D environment which suits FPS, as for MMO RTS ARPGs...... you don't really need the precision that the tablet brings to the table, and it's more about comfort and features like extra buttons

But who fukin cares just click the fukin circles to the God damn fukin beat
I disagree tablet doesn't bring precision to the table, the pen itself is a precise tool but when mapped to the size of the screen it loses its precision.

Also why cant tablets be used for a first person shooter? If you try without any software it wont work but if the tablet area is mapped to rotation greater than 360 degrees in the x direction you should have no problem aiming at everything. I agree that for any game that needs a lot of buttons mouse is easier but for everything else it isn't too bad.

And thanks for your input even though you are sick of this topic.
The Gambler

Mahogany wrote:

Tablets and mice have absolute tracking.
FTFY
I Give Up

Trapalicious wrote:

I figured this was common sense, surely no one legitimately believes they're equal.
You'd be surprised. A lot of people still do and I feel sorry for them.
porix2312
Imagine if we live in ideal world and everyone gets large spikes in skill when switch from mouse to tablet.. Now imagine if AngelMegumin switched to tablet lol
The Gambler

porix2312 wrote:

Imagine if we live in ideal world and everyone gets large spikes in skill when switch from mouse to tablet.. Now imagine if AngelMegumin switched to tablet lol
You must be new here... Angelsim already has insane tablet scores.

And no.

Tablet != skill multiplier.
titancc
I would also like to add one major fault of being a mouse player as currently I am one myself and that would be, mouse drifting.
show more
Please sign in to reply.

New reply