YeahYuudachi-kun wrote:
I didnt read this thread but is it as dumb as the last one
YeahYuudachi-kun wrote:
I didnt read this thread but is it as dumb as the last one
1000 dpi on 1152x864 isn't really that high tbh.B1rd wrote:
Angel uses high dpi so he can somewhat negate the mouse drift and inertia, the main disadvantages of using mouse. Yet most mouse players don't do well with high dpi. He is just an aberration.
Fite meKupcaH wrote:
lolM3ATL0V3R wrote:
The pp of top plays from cookiezi and Rafis both came from higher OD rather than aim
You're not gonna get anywhere trying to use logic to convince people to not use logic. It's just wasted effortB1rd wrote:
You're not gonna get anywhere trying to use logic to convince people of evident truths that they're too stupid to grasp in the first place. It's just wasted effort.
Its the other way around the weight of a mouse gives stability and the size gives more area to grasp which allows for more control. Combine this with a higher surface area in contact with the surface of your desk compared to a tablet pen and you get a peripheral that has roughly the same amount of control as a tablet.Kunino Sagiri wrote:
Mouse is basically a fat tablet pen. Make a tablet pen too fat, shape it into something that looks like a mouse and it already has the advantages/disadvantages of a mouse
But since this game is MOSTLY about control and not just mere speed (which is the advantage of a mouse), the one with lesser total surface area, weight, volume is always objectively superior (at least for this game) It's somewhat like the chopsticks; they shaped it to be not too thick (for more control over food regardless of size you want to pick up), not too thin (so the chopsticks have the bulk to support the food you picked up) and has long (or varied) reach for ease of eating. It's also like juggling balls; the optimal size and weight for a ball is to ideally make a single hand capable of immediately grabbing it and not some bloated one like basketball's and soccer's since it's too large and heavy. Not like it's impossible to do it but it's harder than juggling with something smaller.
So if I give you a chopsticks of 1km circumference, you'd be able to have more control over your food? Obviously not.M3ATL0V3R wrote:
Its the other way around the weight of a mouse gives stability and the size gives more area to grasp which allows for more control
That's an interesting test. Tablet was harder because there's very little friction between my tablet and the pen nib. There's less consistency between the mouse drawn glyphs but I've spent years writing with a pen.Kunino Sagiri wrote:
Write your name with a tablet pen in MSPaint.
Write your name with a mouse in MSPaint.
Just ignore the matter of speed for now, which among these two peripherals offered more control and ease? Which has better legibility?
Chopsticks with a circumference of 1km doesn't give more control because of the limiting factor which is the size of the human hand. A mouse is a better size than a pen for the hand.Kunino Sagiri wrote:
So if I give you a chopsticks of 1km circumference, you'd be able to have more control over your food? Obviously not.M3ATL0V3R wrote:
Its the other way around the weight of a mouse gives stability and the size gives more area to grasp which allows for more control
So if I give you a pentelpen and ask you to write your name of approximate 12mm standard font size, you'd be able to provide a satisfactory, hassle free result? Obviously not. Pentel pens are structured to discard control of where its ink will go with its increased ballpoint size compared to regular pens (ballpens, fountain pens etc.). Its purpose is just to mark which benefits more in size than precision that's why it's called a marker
I'll give you another clearer example just in case these already clear examples still isn't enough for you to stop with this false statement.
Write your name with a tablet pen in MSPaint.
Write your name with a mouse in MSPaint.
Just ignore the matter of speed for now, which among these two peripherals offered more control and ease? Which has better legibility?
I don't think you get my point. These examples were only used to strengthen my first post where total size, volume, weight objectively influence control and the general usage of the said object. We're supposed to completely ignore the skill or mastery of the peripheral by the user but rather the objective advantage of a peripheral with lesser total physical structure (tablet pen) in terms of control to something with more (mouse) at least for this game.M3ATL0V3R wrote:
...
Control as a metric does not exist without the context of anatomy and physiology. More precisely the control that a pointing device grants an individual is a function of both the physical properties of the device and the anatomical and physiological properties of the individual.Kunino Sagiri wrote:
the objective advantage of a peripheral with lesser total physical structure (tablet pen) in terms of control to something with more (mouse) at least for this game.
It doesn't matter if it fits your hand, it has a good shape, you prefer it or whatever simply because they're irrelevant.
Your point was that a tablet pen is superior because it gives a higher amount of control. The reasons you gave were that a lower weight and size is better for control which is partially true as less force is needed to move the pen. I disagreed since a higher surface area of the hand in contact with the peripheral gives more power to move that weight and a higher weight adds stability so less force is needed to grasp the peripheral to keep it on its path. One example you gave was writing which isn't a good example of equal mastery so its invalid and the other two examples are to do with the size of the object. Larger objects allow for larger movements but my point was if these movements are scaled then the control is similar.Kunino Sagiri wrote:
I don't think you get my point. These examples were only used to strengthen my first post where total size, volume, weight objectively influence control and the general usage of the said object. We're supposed to completely ignore the skill or mastery of the peripheral by the user but rather the objective advantage of a peripheral with lesser total physical structure (tablet pen) in terms of control to something with more (mouse) at least for this game.M3ATL0V3R wrote:
...
It doesn't matter if it fits your hand, it has a good shape, you prefer it or whatever simply because they're irrelevant. Use a ruler, compute for their respective total surface area, volume but I think you don't even need to use those tedious measurements to see which has more/less total.
That's a good point and is a good reason why people should pick based on preference. (though I still disagree that mouse has generally less control)G3T wrote:
Control as a metric does not exist without the context of anatomy and physiology. More precisely the control that a pointing device grants an individual is a function of both the physical properties of the device and the anatomical and physiological properties of the individual.Kunino Sagiri wrote:
the objective advantage of a peripheral with lesser total physical structure (tablet pen) in terms of control to something with more (mouse) at least for this game.
It doesn't matter if it fits your hand, it has a good shape, you prefer it or whatever simply because they're irrelevant.
While I believe your argument that the physical properties of a tablet leads to greater control is true for the majority of human beings, I also think that the difference between mouse and tablet is minor enough that a smaller portion of people would have greater control with a mouse due to some anatomical or physiological oddity.
Thus it would be more reasonable to say that tablet is more likely to give a greater level of control.
That might be a factor. I have quite large hands and I swapped from tablet to mouse because I had trouble gripping the pen. However I also have a limited range of movement in my aim hand's thumb due to an injury I sustained a few years ago and that was likely a contributing factor.M3ATL0V3R wrote:
A possible reason for being anatomically suited to mouse is big hands, though I think mine are average.
How much is the average input lag for tablets? I always thought that the input lag is no more than 2 or 3 ms greater than mouse at worst.G3T wrote:
I've tried switching back to tablet a few times and that difference in input lag is a greater annoyance to me than having to deal with mouse drift.
It's hard to find good specs. The signal timing diagrams in Wacom's original patent from the mid 90's allows for a minimum input lag of 15 ms, excluding USB transfer times. The three factors in tablet input lag are the coil sampling frequency, the number of coils, and the DSP time.Kunino Sagiri wrote:
How much is the average input lag for tablets? I always thought that the input lag is no more than 2 or 3 ms greater than mouse at worst.
I don't know the supposed best player in the world cookiezi says "its just preference" in other words he says they are equal.Trapalicious wrote:
I figured this was common sense, surely no one legitimately believes they're equal.
Well that would make sense to deflect the fact a player using more difficult way to play has overtaken your rank. There's like what, 9 mouse players in the top 100? One player being immensely good at both the game and mouse control doesn't suddenly negate the fact the other 91 players use a tablet and turn it into preference. He's an exception to the rule.M3ATL0V3R wrote:
I don't know the supposed best player in the world cookiezi says "its just preference" in other words he says they are equal.Trapalicious wrote:
I figured this was common sense, surely no one legitimately believes they're equal.
Lol, he never overtook me, hes been a god since the dawn of time. Also I'm not sure why you would make this about me, lets focus the points of the argument rather than attacking each others character.Trapalicious wrote:
Well that would make sense to deflect the fact a player using more difficult way to play has overtaken your rank.
More people use tablet because it used to be perceived as the superior device. However just because the majority perceive the device as better doesn't mean it actually is. I mean the second best player right now is a mouse player even though only 9% of players in the top 100 use mouse.Trapalicious wrote:
91 players use a tablet
Just because tablet is limited to a static interface doesn't mean it is the best choice for that interface. Could you explain in more depth why they are more precise?Trapalicious wrote:
they offer more precision while working with a static interface
Low weight and drag is both good and bad when it comes to ability to aim. For this very reason some tablet players drag the pen on the tablet to add stability. The same goes for weight, it increases the force needed to start moving but adds stability as you are moving. There are many arguments for both peripherals and after considering as many as I could I came to the conclusion they are very close to equalTrapalicious wrote:
Using a tablet lets you dance around because they add practically no weight to your hand and there's 0 drag since nothing is touching
This is true and the example you give is true however there is no specific dpi number that is optimal there is a range and the number you choose is preference. Also if you look at what types of mice these players use they could be big or small. The DPI and shape of a mouse is preference just as what peripheral you use in osu is preference.Trapalicious wrote:
Preference only goes so far
The numbers drop off hard? I don't think there is any proof of that, that spreadsheet doesn't list every mouse user so you cant really use it to analyse the population of players. Even so I found its the opposite of what you said using that spreadsheet.Trapalicious wrote:
I don't really wanna write too much because these kinds of things go on eternally.
I'm just using "you" in the general way, referring to Cookiezi. It's natural he'd claim it's 100% preference to downplay the fact a mouse player overtook his rank. Angel being #1-2 doesn't really mean much besides that he's just that good, he doesn't change the 'rule'. The rule being reaching that level of skill with a mouse is much harder or time consuming. Like assuming this does an okay job at listing the top mouse users, there's around 50ish give or take in the top 1000, and then the numbers drop off hard.
1:1 position is an advantage, but tablets also have a higher latency (as discussed before) and are not really designed with swift movements in mind which puts them at about the same level of potential as mouse.Trapalicious wrote:
Tablets offer 1:1 positioning, they're just inherently more accurate for static interfaces because of this. I keep saying static because someone would go "then whys there no tablet Quake players if theyre so good??? xd". You're not gonna find an artist which seriously draws with a mouse without just sketching first then going over with pen-tool for line art, because it's horrible trying to do smooth lines with a mouse.
When I said there is a range of dpi that are acceptable and compared that to tablet vs mouse my point was that mouse falls in the range of acceptable peripherals. When you are in a range of acceptable dpi you can go up or down within that range and your hand can adjust its movements without noticeably losing much of its potential accuracy. Same goes for mouse vs tablet, there is a certain range of drag/weight that is optimal. This range also differs from player to player which adds even more to the "its just preference" argument.Trapalicious wrote:
Yeah mice vary, but only because people have different hands. I use palm-grip with a small mouse because I have small hands. Dpi/shape/xyz doesn't change the flaws/advantages of a mouse. Top mouse players switch to tablet, but do top tablet players ever switch to mouse permanently?
I agree with thiswinber1 wrote:
everything in the world is inherently different, because they are literally different things. object A is not object B even if they are both cellphones, or whatever. there are things that tablet inherently has a slight advantage over mouse and likewise mouse over tablet given a certain person's skillset, albeit extremely hard to pinpoint exactly. that being said, everyone is also different and inherently has a different skillset, which can match tablet or mouse better. in a sense, it's just "preference" because it depends on which peripheral a person is more inclined to use given their skillsets.
I disagree that tablet is better as a peripheral in general, just cause a majority found it better doesn't make it better. Most people thought primitive forms of medicine worked in the past but that was largely due to the placebo effect.winber1 wrote:
however, to say that something is better generally implies that it is better for the majority of people. something would not be "better" if it were disadvantageous to most people. therefore, because it is basically fact that most people see greater improvement with tablet, the general consensus would be that tablet is "better" than mouse, since the majority of people see an advantageous benefit from tablet. To say "you should probably switch to tablet to improve faster" is not misleading, but rather a general guideline; however, it should be taken with a grain of salt because you may be part of the minority. the world is just made up of statistics.
Its my hot body, I do what i wantwinber1 wrote:
now begone
I think you're smart and knowledgeable enough to figure mouse works better in other game cause relative positioning works well in 3D environment which suits FPS, as for MMO RTS ARPGs...... you don't really need the precision that the tablet brings to the table, and it's more about comfort and features like extra buttonsM3ATL0V3R wrote:
The other evidence is most other PC games are played with a mouse and people have no problems aiming at a very high level.
I disagree tablet doesn't bring precision to the table, the pen itself is a precise tool but when mapped to the size of the screen it loses its precision.N0thingSpecial wrote:
Why is this still going, absolute positioning and just our flexibility in using a pen on a day to day basis give tablets an edge, but the actual performance depends on the player which is why there are some mouse players with high rank.I think you're smart and knowledgeable enough to figure mouse works better in other game cause relative positioning works well in 3D environment which suits FPS, as for MMO RTS ARPGs...... you don't really need the precision that the tablet brings to the table, and it's more about comfort and features like extra buttonsM3ATL0V3R wrote:
The other evidence is most other PC games are played with a mouse and people have no problems aiming at a very high level.
But who fukin cares just click the fukin circles to the God damn fukin beat
FTFYMahogany wrote:
Tablets and mice have absolute tracking.
You'd be surprised. A lot of people still do and I feel sorry for them.Trapalicious wrote:
I figured this was common sense, surely no one legitimately believes they're equal.
You must be new here... Angelsim already has insane tablet scores.porix2312 wrote:
Imagine if we live in ideal world and everyone gets large spikes in skill when switch from mouse to tablet.. Now imagine if AngelMegumin switched to tablet lol