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The reason why tablet is (probably) better than mouse

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Fxjlk

Houtarou Oreki wrote:

It took me one month to get used to tablet. The worst thing in mices for me is the contact with desk/mousepad, it's really uncomfortable imo.
My hand gets sore where it meets the surface of the desk for tablet too if I play long enough.

On a side note Angel Megumin has said he has the best aim out of all the top players. He also uses a mouse to aim, coincidence?

The pp of top plays from cookiezi and Rafis both came from higher OD rather than aim so it could be argued that currently mouse may not have the highest pp play but has the best play in terms of aim. However since the number of top players is such a small sample size you still cant say for certain that mouse is a better peripheral because of this.
Rilene
I hope people doesn't flame and actually discuss, even against the point of the thread this time.
LoliPantsu
the thread is retarded imo, if someone can get to #1 using mouse then mouse players shouldnt be discouraged at all
Illyasviel
Can someone lock this thread before it becomes a shit storm? Both are different ways of playing, there is no better or worse. Just better or worse players.
7ambda

LoliPantsu wrote:

the thread is retarded imo, if someone can get to #1 using mouse then mouse players shouldnt be discouraged at all
This thread is better than 99% of the usual G&R threads because it actually provokes a discussion.

[XV] wrote:

Can someone lock this thread before it becomes a shit storm? Both are different ways of playing, there is no better or worse. Just better or worse players.
I don't think quality threads need to be locked if the flames haven't sprouted yet.
Lagel
bappity boop
Illyasviel

Lagel wrote:

[XV] wrote:

Can someone lock this thread before it becomes a shit storm? Both are different ways of playing, there is no better or worse. Just better or worse players.
It'll only become a shit storm with people purposefully intending to create a shit storm. OP has made a perfectly fine post and it invokes discussion, what's wrong with that in the G&R thread? Just because you're too immature to handle discussion and opinion doesn't mean a thread should be shut down.
Why type such an arrogant post? Your answer makes no sense. OP post is great, but you sure know how this is going to be a shitstorm on the comments. This community is great, but also is full of people who can't make a good discussion without memeing or start to insult.
Fxjlk
Attacking a persons character e.g.

Lagel wrote:

you're too immature

[XV] wrote:

arrogant post
Is likely to evoke a personal response from the other person rather than encourage logical discussion so its best to edit these out before you post or this could turn into locked thread version 2. I don't care about not hurting peoples feelings or anything its just boring to read insults.

[XV] wrote:

Can someone lock this thread before it becomes a shit storm?
There has been plenty of mouse vs tablet threads that have been completely fine, I don't know how this one is any different.
DeathHydra
I think you slightly misunderstood the word "preference" (or is it me? Idk)

Let me give you an example : Player A has been playing osu! for 3 years using mouse. Then he heard of this so-called tablet that is better than mouse from someone. He decides to try it out for a while. But he's just way too convenient with his mouse compared to the tablet he just bought. In the end, he decides to continue playing osu! with his mouse as he PREFERS mouse over tablet.

The example above is what I think "preference" is. Preference is like a choice when you already know the advantages and disadvantages of each choices. So, when someone says "it's just preference", that doesn't mean that tablet and mouse are the same because in the end, it comes back to the players themselves. Some people just like playing with mouse for various reasons, and even if they know that tablet is better, they still choose mouse because of those "various reasons", and you can say that they prefer mouse over tablet.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

TL:DR
I actually agree that tablet is slightly or way better than mouse, but it's still a preference. In the end, you have to choose between the two and if you choose mouse, that means you prefer mouse and vice versa
Runiel
In the end it comes down to talent
Mahogany

F1r3tar wrote:

LoliPantsu wrote:

the thread is retarded imo, if someone can get to #1 using mouse then mouse players shouldnt be discouraged at all
This thread is better than 99% of the usual G&R threads because it actually provokes a discussion.
A shitty flamebaity discussion isn't any better than the shitposts that happen usually
Sayorie
Did not read OP because of terrible formatting. Is this some new drama again?
shortpotato
tl;dr i've played both tablet and mouse and to my experience some maps are easier with tablet and some are easier with mouse

Although it might just be in only my personal experience, spaced streams, consistency of movement and repeated jumps with sharp angles are usually easier with tablet, while things such as low ar, snapping, linear patterns, and in general the cleanliness of cursor movement are improvements that I feel when playing with mouse (maybe cause of polling rate but I wont go into why there are advantages). I can't put all of the advantages and disadvantages into words but from this I think everyone should realise that although tablet MIGHT (i stress might for some people - 'preference') be better for some people in certain aspects of the game ---> gaining PP because PP rain comes from jumps, acc, spaced streams, etc. that tablet excels at --- usually they will also suffer in other aspects of the game, which you will then excel at because of your choice of mouse over tablet. That's why mouse players (speaking really generally) will be better at some maps than tablet players assuming they have the same pp or 'skill' level, and of course the vice versa, as just stated would also true. Even to this day when I've switched to tablet I still find certain maps easier with mouse (because I used to be a mouse player), and certain maps I once fc'ed with mouse years ago I don't even think I can do today, despite how much pp I've gained with tablet

on a side note, tablet feels weird for me because reaching different parts of the tablet require different movements while you can just slide a mouse around on the same plane. Anyone else feel like this? O.o

don't take this out of context, i'm just stating my personal experiences with mouse and tablet; hopefully it might help someone reading it.

w
Mahogany

Arthraxium wrote:

Did not read OP because of terrible formatting. Is this some new drama again?
yes
Lagel
beep boop
Fxjlk

RunielVermell wrote:

In the end it comes down to talent playing more
Fixed
Fxjlk

shortpotato wrote:

on a side note, tablet feels weird for me because reaching different parts of the tablet require different movements while you can just slide a mouse around on the same plane. Anyone else feel like this? O.o
Yeah I've had the feeling and found this super disorientating. When I switched back to mouse from using a tablet for ages the mouse moved in a totally different way than I expected. My brain probably mixed up the muscle memory of the 2 peripherals and it took a little while to adjust. The same happened when switching to tablet from mouse.
B1rd
You're not gonna get anywhere trying to use logic to convince people of evident truths that they're too stupid to grasp in the first place. It's just wasted effort.
Kunino Sagiri
Mouse is basically a fat tablet pen. Make a tablet pen too fat, shape it into something that looks like a mouse and it already has the advantages/disadvantages of a mouse

But since this game is MOSTLY about control and not just mere speed (which is the advantage of a mouse), the one with lesser total surface area, weight, volume is always objectively superior (at least for this game) It's somewhat like the chopsticks; they shaped it to be not too thick (for more control over food regardless of size you want to pick up), not too thin (so the chopsticks have the bulk to support the food you picked up) and has long (or varied) reach for ease of eating. It's also like juggling balls; the optimal size and weight for a ball is to ideally make a single hand capable of immediately grabbing it and not some bloated one like basketball's and soccer's since it's too large and heavy. Not like it's impossible to do it but it's harder than juggling with something smaller.
KupcaH

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

The pp of top plays from cookiezi and Rafis both came from higher OD rather than aim
lol
Ninonuko

shortpotato wrote:

on a side note, tablet feels weird for me because reaching different parts of the tablet require different movements while you can just slide a mouse around on the same plane. Anyone else feel like this? O.o
I do, it's more like I need extra effort to do jump.
I keep playing with tablet for 2 years, now I good at nothing but stamina as a result.
I'd have switch back to mouse if I could.
G3T

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

Mouse is basically a fat tablet pen. Make a tablet pen too fat, shape it into something that looks like a mouse and it already has the advantages/disadvantages of a mouse
You're ignoring a number of other features of mice and tablets with that statement.

Tablets are absolute positioning devices while mice are relative positioning devices. This likely wouldn't be a matter if there were mice with perfect sensors but even the best optical sensors have some perceivable level of inherent acceleration. This is what causes mouse drift and thus introduces another factor into one's consistency with a mouse.

Also, from what I've been able to glean from research into both tablets and mice, a good quality mouse will have lower input lag (about 2-4 ms) in comparison with a tablet (probably 15+ ms, specs for this are much harder to find and I don't have the hardware required to test this physically).
I Give Up
Tablet is superior to mouse but only because one reason: Absolute Positioning. The rest is all preference (grip, weight, size, etc.) The vast majority of top players prefer tablet due to reasons such as drift, form factor, market access, etc. that otherwise hinder their performance. Many of these factors are preference, except absolute positioning is an objective fact. Tablet cursor will always have a 1:1 movement ratio but mouse will not. This makes mouse SIGNIFICANTLY harder to master. AngeL still has to battle mouse drift but made it to #1 because he is just that damn good!
B1rd
Angel uses high dpi so he can somewhat negate the mouse drift and inertia, the main disadvantages of using mouse. Yet most mouse players don't do well with high dpi. He is just an aberration.
Yuudachi-kun
I didnt read this thread but is it as dumb as the last one
Lagel

Yuudachi-kun wrote:

I didnt read this thread but is it as dumb as the last one
Yeah
Endaris

B1rd wrote:

Angel uses high dpi so he can somewhat negate the mouse drift and inertia, the main disadvantages of using mouse. Yet most mouse players don't do well with high dpi. He is just an aberration.
1000 dpi on 1152x864 isn't really that high tbh.
Slightly above average I'd say.
If anything helps him negating the disadvantages it's his kinda weird mousegrip that causes him to play not so much from the wrist and therefore not running into problems revolving around constantly switching your mouse-axis.
Fxjlk

KupcaH wrote:

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

The pp of top plays from cookiezi and Rafis both came from higher OD rather than aim
lol
Fite me

B1rd wrote:

You're not gonna get anywhere trying to use logic to convince people of evident truths that they're too stupid to grasp in the first place. It's just wasted effort.
You're not gonna get anywhere trying to use logic to convince people to not use logic. It's just wasted effort
Fxjlk

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

Mouse is basically a fat tablet pen. Make a tablet pen too fat, shape it into something that looks like a mouse and it already has the advantages/disadvantages of a mouse

But since this game is MOSTLY about control and not just mere speed (which is the advantage of a mouse), the one with lesser total surface area, weight, volume is always objectively superior (at least for this game) It's somewhat like the chopsticks; they shaped it to be not too thick (for more control over food regardless of size you want to pick up), not too thin (so the chopsticks have the bulk to support the food you picked up) and has long (or varied) reach for ease of eating. It's also like juggling balls; the optimal size and weight for a ball is to ideally make a single hand capable of immediately grabbing it and not some bloated one like basketball's and soccer's since it's too large and heavy. Not like it's impossible to do it but it's harder than juggling with something smaller.
Its the other way around the weight of a mouse gives stability and the size gives more area to grasp which allows for more control. Combine this with a higher surface area in contact with the surface of your desk compared to a tablet pen and you get a peripheral that has roughly the same amount of control as a tablet.
Kunino Sagiri

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Its the other way around the weight of a mouse gives stability and the size gives more area to grasp which allows for more control
So if I give you a chopsticks of 1km circumference, you'd be able to have more control over your food? Obviously not.
So if I give you a pentelpen and ask you to write your name of approximate 12mm standard font size, you'd be able to provide a satisfactory, hassle free result? Obviously not. Pentel pens are structured to discard control of where its ink will go with its increased ballpoint size compared to regular pens (ballpens, fountain pens etc.). Its purpose is just to mark which benefits more in size than precision that's why it's called a marker

I'll give you another clearer example just in case these already clear examples still isn't enough for you to stop with this false statement.

Write your name with a tablet pen in MSPaint.
Write your name with a mouse in MSPaint.

Just ignore the matter of speed for now, which among these two peripherals offered more control and ease? Which has better legibility?
G3T

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

Write your name with a tablet pen in MSPaint.
Write your name with a mouse in MSPaint.

Just ignore the matter of speed for now, which among these two peripherals offered more control and ease? Which has better legibility?
That's an interesting test. Tablet was harder because there's very little friction between my tablet and the pen nib. There's less consistency between the mouse drawn glyphs but I've spent years writing with a pen.
Fxjlk

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

Its the other way around the weight of a mouse gives stability and the size gives more area to grasp which allows for more control
So if I give you a chopsticks of 1km circumference, you'd be able to have more control over your food? Obviously not.
So if I give you a pentelpen and ask you to write your name of approximate 12mm standard font size, you'd be able to provide a satisfactory, hassle free result? Obviously not. Pentel pens are structured to discard control of where its ink will go with its increased ballpoint size compared to regular pens (ballpens, fountain pens etc.). Its purpose is just to mark which benefits more in size than precision that's why it's called a marker

I'll give you another clearer example just in case these already clear examples still isn't enough for you to stop with this false statement.

Write your name with a tablet pen in MSPaint.
Write your name with a mouse in MSPaint.

Just ignore the matter of speed for now, which among these two peripherals offered more control and ease? Which has better legibility?
Chopsticks with a circumference of 1km doesn't give more control because of the limiting factor which is the size of the human hand. A mouse is a better size than a pen for the hand.

With the pentel pen example it is a different situation where its comparing apple to oranges because motion is not scaled. If a pentel pen shaped object is used as a pointing device it would be perfectly fine for producing a 12mm font sized name if a converter was used that scaled down the produced name.

And for the final point the reason why its easier to write names with a pen rather than a mouse is not because pen has better control its because people have had way more practice using a pen to write letters. Its like asking a person to play a first person shooter with a tablet.
Kunino Sagiri

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

...
I don't think you get my point. These examples were only used to strengthen my first post where total size, volume, weight objectively influence control and the general usage of the said object. We're supposed to completely ignore the skill or mastery of the peripheral by the user but rather the objective advantage of a peripheral with lesser total physical structure (tablet pen) in terms of control to something with more (mouse) at least for this game.

It doesn't matter if it fits your hand, it has a good shape, you prefer it or whatever simply because they're irrelevant. Use a ruler, compute for their respective total surface area, volume but I think you don't even need to use those tedious measurements to see which has more/less total.
G3T

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

the objective advantage of a peripheral with lesser total physical structure (tablet pen) in terms of control to something with more (mouse) at least for this game.

It doesn't matter if it fits your hand, it has a good shape, you prefer it or whatever simply because they're irrelevant.
Control as a metric does not exist without the context of anatomy and physiology. More precisely the control that a pointing device grants an individual is a function of both the physical properties of the device and the anatomical and physiological properties of the individual.

While I believe your argument that the physical properties of a tablet leads to greater control is true for the majority of human beings, I also think that the difference between mouse and tablet is minor enough that a smaller portion of people would have greater control with a mouse due to some anatomical or physiological oddity.

Thus it would be more reasonable to say that tablet is more likely to give a greater level of control.
Fxjlk

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

...
I don't think you get my point. These examples were only used to strengthen my first post where total size, volume, weight objectively influence control and the general usage of the said object. We're supposed to completely ignore the skill or mastery of the peripheral by the user but rather the objective advantage of a peripheral with lesser total physical structure (tablet pen) in terms of control to something with more (mouse) at least for this game.

It doesn't matter if it fits your hand, it has a good shape, you prefer it or whatever simply because they're irrelevant. Use a ruler, compute for their respective total surface area, volume but I think you don't even need to use those tedious measurements to see which has more/less total.
Your point was that a tablet pen is superior because it gives a higher amount of control. The reasons you gave were that a lower weight and size is better for control which is partially true as less force is needed to move the pen. I disagreed since a higher surface area of the hand in contact with the peripheral gives more power to move that weight and a higher weight adds stability so less force is needed to grasp the peripheral to keep it on its path. One example you gave was writing which isn't a good example of equal mastery so its invalid and the other two examples are to do with the size of the object. Larger objects allow for larger movements but my point was if these movements are scaled then the control is similar.

I think that whatever negatives that the mouse has in terms of control is made up for in positives which make the pen and mouse roughly equal. They have their advantages for different types of movements but for osu their control is generally the same in terms of overall performance.
Fxjlk

G3T wrote:

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

the objective advantage of a peripheral with lesser total physical structure (tablet pen) in terms of control to something with more (mouse) at least for this game.

It doesn't matter if it fits your hand, it has a good shape, you prefer it or whatever simply because they're irrelevant.
Control as a metric does not exist without the context of anatomy and physiology. More precisely the control that a pointing device grants an individual is a function of both the physical properties of the device and the anatomical and physiological properties of the individual.

While I believe your argument that the physical properties of a tablet leads to greater control is true for the majority of human beings, I also think that the difference between mouse and tablet is minor enough that a smaller portion of people would have greater control with a mouse due to some anatomical or physiological oddity.

Thus it would be more reasonable to say that tablet is more likely to give a greater level of control.
That's a good point and is a good reason why people should pick based on preference. (though I still disagree that mouse has generally less control)

A possible reason for being anatomically suited to mouse is big hands, though I think mine are average.
G3T

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

A possible reason for being anatomically suited to mouse is big hands, though I think mine are average.
That might be a factor. I have quite large hands and I swapped from tablet to mouse because I had trouble gripping the pen. However I also have a limited range of movement in my aim hand's thumb due to an injury I sustained a few years ago and that was likely a contributing factor.

The largest difference I've noticed about mouse vs tablet other than having to deal with mouse drift is the difference in input lag. The lower input lag on mouse means that while I have to concentrate more on the position of my cursor to account for drift I can concentrate far less on synchronising my taps with my aim as it comes more naturally.

I've tried switching back to tablet a few times and that difference in input lag is a greater annoyance to me than having to deal with mouse drift.
Kunino Sagiri

G3T wrote:

I've tried switching back to tablet a few times and that difference in input lag is a greater annoyance to me than having to deal with mouse drift.
How much is the average input lag for tablets? I always thought that the input lag is no more than 2 or 3 ms greater than mouse at worst.
G3T

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

How much is the average input lag for tablets? I always thought that the input lag is no more than 2 or 3 ms greater than mouse at worst.
It's hard to find good specs. The signal timing diagrams in Wacom's original patent from the mid 90's allows for a minimum input lag of 15 ms, excluding USB transfer times. The three factors in tablet input lag are the coil sampling frequency, the number of coils, and the DSP time.

As technology has become significantly better over the last two decades you'd expect a significant improvement in the above factors. I think, though I have no actual confirmation, that most of these improvements have been put into a larger resolution, more pressure sensitivity, and pen positioning data.

Using this analysis and my own experience of the difference between a good mouse and tablet I'd estimate that most Wacom tablets probably do about 5-10 ms of sampling/DSP and then there's about 6 ms of USB transfer time as they poll at 200 Hz. And then everything but the w5 driver for the 480 take multiple samples to smooth your input, further adding (5 ms * number of samples) to the input lag.

A good mouse at polling at 1000 Hz is going to have about 2 ms input lag to the PC to the eyes you have to take into account frametime, monitor DSP, monitor response time, and monitor refresh rate which is almost entirely usb transfer time as good optical sensors sample at about 6 kHz.
blahpy
I've played with tablet for a year now after switching from mouse and I haven't improved in any way but reading (which isn't due to the tablet, obviously). There are some things I've been able to do with one and not the other (both ways).

It's just a preference for the most part and there are a few maps that are more tailored for one or the other
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